georger 244
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377 22
Quoteor somehow got snagged on the stairs
then drops later ... but they didnt find any cloth or
evidence of a snag at Reno.
Jumpers have been snagged on jumpships by straps looping around protruding structures. When they finally get unsnagged there is nothing that remains with the plane.
Still, would you get a pressure bump if Cooper didnt actually depart? I assumed the bump came primarily from the stairs coming back up when relieved of Cooper's weight, as shown in the FBI 727 sled test.
If he were still snagged or hanging on, I assume the stairs would remain deflected downwards and would come back up when he left.
I wonder if he could have done sort of a bounce on the stairs to create a bump and then remained on the stairs for another 5 or 10 minutes or even longer. His later departure bump might not have been noticed as clearly as the first one was. If the crew were in a mindset that he had already departed they might miss the second one. Also, if his delayed departure was done during turbulence bumps it might be missed.
The Tena Bar money find argues against all that though.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 244
I think (stress "I think") you have toQuoteQuoteor somehow got snagged on the stairs
then drops later ... but they didnt find any cloth or
evidence of a snag at Reno.
Jumpers have been snagged on jumpships by straps looping around protruding structures. When they finally get unsnagged there is nothing that remains with the plane.
Still, would you get a pressure bump if Cooper didnt actually depart? I assumed the bump came primarily from the stairs coming back up when relieved of Cooper's weight, as shown in the FBI 727 sled test.
If he were still snagged or hanging on, I assume the stairs would remain deflected downwards and would come back up when he left.
I wonder if he could have done sort of a bounce on the stairs to create a bump and then remained on the stairs for another 5 or 10 minutes or even longer. His later departure bump might not have been noticed as clearly as the first one was. If the crew were in a mindset that he had already departed they might miss the second one. Also, if his delayed departure was done during turbulence bumps it might be missed.
The Tena Bar money find argues against all that though.
377
close the hole in the fuselage in order to get a sudden pressue differential. The hole has to have
been open, plane flying unpressurised, then the
hole suddenly closes .... meaning the stair assembly
closed shut ( as per the test done later).
If the stairs are shut, nothing protruding, all
smooth surfaces at the rear, what is left to snag
a chute assembly on? Nothing that I can tell?
I think the pressure bump and his jump are
connected. How could he fake that? Plus, this
was a short time after Tina saw him getting ready
to jump, then following him answering a PA call,
then the pressure bump ... all in sequence. How
could he fake jumping later unless he comes back inside and waits until the stairs close then reopens the stairs and jumps later all of which would create a second series of pressure changes .....
The one thing I do not understand is how/why were
the stairs open to any extent when the plane landed at Reno? I thought the stairs had slammed shut after his jump? Evidently the stairs did not lock shut
when they slammed shut, temporarily?
The stairs were definately far enough down at Reno
that when the plane landed the stairs threw sparks
seen by CBS news crews and others.
But each time the stairs close with the plane in motion you must get a pressure change inside the
tube of the fuselage.
snowmman 3
Quote[The latest project involves "dogboarding" GITMO prisoners. The DOJ has obtained another legal opinion from John Yoo that says such barbaric practices are only war crimes if they are done by people.
That is true.
I did get a small consult job. Don't know if they followed our recommendations, but I don't see why they wouldn't.
We were given a couple of ground rules.
1) It would be torture if there was any physical injury.
2) Waterboarding was out because as Cheney said, once they knew our technique there, Al Qaeda would train for it and it wouldn't work so well.
3) Also, waterboarding didn't work as well as advertised.
I asked "well what else are these guys afraid of?"
"Dogs and panties" was the answer.
Well, I pocketed the panties (U.S. Army issue) with a note to self to track down the owner.
"Dogs?" I said. "Okay. You put your prisoners in a hole standing up, and bury them up to their necks. Sand is best, because the grit gets in your mouth and you can't rub it out with your hands. Then if you try to keep spitting it out, your mouth gets all dry and cracked after a couple of hours. You can alternate day or night. Pitch black can be good".
"Then you send in the dogs. One at a time. Now some might think that you just send in one mean guy that starts biting them on the head and stuff. But no..You send in lots of different kinds of dogs..one at a time. Even some poodles and chihuahuas.
See what happens is the poor guy tries to shoo them away by yelling. But eventually the dogs figure out the guy can't do anything. And the dogs do whatever they want. Some piss on him. Some lick him. Some just stare.
You keep swapping the dogs out..So the guy never knows what's going to happen with the next one.
But eventually what happens, is that it's not their fear of dogs that cracks them. What cracks them is when they realize the dogs want to socialize with them.
And that they're just some poor sap of a human, buried up to their necks in sand by another human.
And the closet thing to what we call "human contact" is coming from a dog with sharp teeth. Who could bite him on the face with no risk, but doesn't, because the dog realizes there's no point.
And it's the realization that the dog is the only one displaying any traits we like to call "humanity"... that's what cracks them.
They want to be the dog.
And they realize, they can't be.
georger 244
QuoteLots of people disappear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_disappeared_mysteriously#1970s
I found some stats on hijacking. Several major studies were done in South Afrika during the revolt
period. Other studies come from the US. Let me cite
a few statistics from a Maine study, which may be a
little surprising. I can provide links to these studies
for anyone interested, and there are further studies available through government links..
98% male.
90% from marginalized circumstances.
90% white or from the race dominant class.
75% under age 30 20% (30-33)
5% over 40
60% have criminal background/records
78% unmarried
67% have 12th grade or better education.
80% go back to their places of residence after the HJing.
47-60% semi employed or unemployed.
73% no military training.
Months most vulnerable: + Jan-Aug
Months least vulnerable: Nov-Dec Least=Dec.
Days most vulnerable: Fridays 2x all other days.
96% of all HJers were armed.
Most often stated motive: economic.
Next most stated motive: political-personal.
Planning period most often stated:
up to a year or more. Less than 2% spontaneous.
377 22
QuoteAnd it's the realization that the dog is the only one displaying any traits we like to call "humanity"... that's what cracks them.
Brilliant Snow, in a twisted sort of way. The term sick puppy comes to mind.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 244
What do you think of the stats I just posted, in terms of Ckret's profile of Cooper? GoodQuoteQuoteAnd it's the realization that the dog is the only one displaying any traits we like to call "humanity"... that's what cracks them.
Brilliant Snow, in a twisted sort of way. The term sick puppy comes to mind.
377
fit?
The other studies I have looked at have very similar
stats. Now for the clincher which surprised me:
There are studies for hijacking ships, planes, land
mobiles etc - when you compare the stats for each
type of hijacking the same basic core stats seem to
apply across the board, not matter the type of
hijacking. In other words, from the point of view
of the statistical suruveys, a hijacking is a hijacking
regardless of type. That can;t be! ? Or can it?
If these stats are accurate then chances are Mr.
Cooper fits into a neat little catagory, whether he
wants to or not. That helps define our Mr. Cooper.
For one, he falls into a very small catagory of hijackers over 40 which predicts an x, y, and z...
edit:
excerpt:
[The most famous of all U.S. hijackings took place on November 24, 1971. A man who boarded a flight in Portland, Oregon, under the name of D. B. Cooper hijacked the plane, demanding a ransom of $200,000 and two parachutes. His demands were met and he later bailed out with the money. The idea of a parachute escape may not have originated with Cooper, however; a hijacker who held a Canadian plane for ransom just 12 days earlier had attempted unsuccessfully to bail out (Phillips 1973).
A wave of extortion attempts followed Cooper's (see fig. 2). In the following months there were two attempts, including one by a hijacker who demanded a parachute in an apparent attempt to imitate Cooper. Of the 31 U.S. hijacking attempts in 1972, 19 involved extortion and 15 were by hijackers who demanded parachutes.
Although there have been hijackings from 1931 to the present, their peak period was 1968-72 (see fig. 1). During that period there were 326 hijacking attempts worldwide, or one every 5.6 days. These included 137 attempts by individuals who boarded flights in the United States, or one such attempt every 13.3 days. Newspapers, television, and other mass media constantly carried stories about aircraft hijackings, and it was often suggested that the motivation to hijack planes spread from individual to individual as a result of the media coverage. ]
377 22
Finally some social science comes to the party. Pretty damned interesting.
377
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Orange1 0
QuoteQuoteLots of people disappear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_disappeared_mysteriously#1970s
I found some stats on hijacking. Several major studies were done in South Afrika during the revolt
period. Other studies come from the US. Let me cite
a few statistics from a Maine study, which may be a
little surprising. I can provide links to these studies
for anyone interested, and there are further studies available through government links..
98% male.
90% from marginalized circumstances.
90% white or from the race dominant class.
75% under age 30 20% (30-33)
5% over 40
60% have criminal background/records
78% unmarried
67% have 12th grade or better education.
80% go back to their places of residence after the HJing.
47-60% semi employed or unemployed.
73% no military training.
Months most vulnerable: + Jan-Aug
Months least vulnerable: Nov-Dec Least=Dec.
Days most vulnerable: Fridays 2x all other days.
96% of all HJers were armed.
Most often stated motive: economic.
Next most stated motive: political-personal.
Planning period most often stated:
up to a year or more. Less than 2% spontaneous.
Nice work Georger. Do we have any idea where the 20% of hijackers who don't go home afterwards, do go to??
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
georger 244
QuoteFinally some social science comes to the party. Pretty damned interesting.
377
Thre is an additional catagory of people in the psych
literature we havent mentioned before: namely those who make up heroic stories mainly for consumption within their families and among friends, but not for public consumption.
I can provide several links to research/stories
about such people, if anyone wants. Generally these
people are trying to gain influence and affection within their own families or group of friends which
they previously felt they did not have, and this can
come at the end of life where a person wants to be remembered as someone special.
Maybe this is what happened in Duane Weber's case?
Generally these people do not intend their stories
to leak out but when it does problems can result.
A number of well known cases fit into this catagory.
I might provide one tomorrow night -
here is a link to one such story:
http://www.ajc.com/business/airtran-hero-wasn-t-226517.html
georger 244
yes, there is a breakdown in one ofQuoteQuoteQuoteLots of people disappear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_disappeared_mysteriously#1970s
I found some stats on hijacking. Several major studies were done in South Afrika during the revolt
period. Other studies come from the US. Let me cite
a few statistics from a Maine study, which may be a
little surprising. I can provide links to these studies
for anyone interested, and there are further studies available through government links..
98% male.
90% from marginalized circumstances.
90% white or from the race dominant class.
75% under age 30 20% (30-33)
5% over 40
60% have criminal background/records
78% unmarried
67% have 12th grade or better education.
80% go back to their places of residence after the HJing.
47-60% semi employed or unemployed.
73% no military training.
Months most vulnerable: + Jan-Aug
Months least vulnerable: Nov-Dec Least=Dec.
Days most vulnerable: Fridays 2x all other days.
96% of all HJers were armed.
Most often stated motive: economic.
Next most stated motive: political-personal.
Planning period most often stated:
up to a year or more. Less than 2% spontaneous.
Nice work Georger. Do we have any idea where the 20% of hijackers who don't go home afterwards, do go to??
the studies - let me go back and retrieve that tonight.
Orange1 0
Interesting story. Made it clicky:
http://www.ajc.com/business/airtran-hero-wasn-t-226517.html
http://www.ajc.com/business/airtran-hero-wasn-t-226517.html
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
377 22
People yearn to be heros. The Internet and good old yarn spinning can make anyone a hero for a short period of time. Then the skeptics and Snopers enter the picture and cut the fake heros to shreds.
Ted Petruska is famous now, but not as a hero.
Duane Weber is famous now, but not as Dan Cooper.
Fame is not the same as glory.
377
Ted Petruska is famous now, but not as a hero.
Duane Weber is famous now, but not as Dan Cooper.
Fame is not the same as glory.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 244
QuotePeople yearn to be heros. The Internet and good old yarn spinning can make anyone a hero for a short period of time. Then the skeptics and Snopers enter the picture and cut the fake heros to shreds. 377
We had a case like this in my family - a cousin who always talked about his service in WWI but he had never been there, and we all knew it, and he knew we all knew it!
In every other area of his life he was a huge success.
We could never figure out what was driving his lies. But as a kid I always had an image of this family member as some kind of Seargent York, squirrel hunting and chasing the Hun in our countryside.
His tales really upset my WWII uncles and one aunt who had lost a son in Belgium. One of my uncles
knew an Admiral and finally one day the Admiral
came to town to visit my uncle and they went down
to visit this cousin at his business. This cousin never talked about his WWI exploits again, at least not
openly.
But at his death they found a small box of medals
and personal papers tucked up high in his closet.
These turned out to be the property of one L.R.H.
who had actually served in WWI and died, but had
no living family. It turned out my cousin and LRH had grown up together as kids, were best friends,
and my cousin's wife didnt even know about this.
It turned out all of my cousin's WWI tales were in
memory of his childhood friend he had lost!
We were shocked to find this out. Today people
wear POW bracletes of people they never personally knew etc. The connection between my cousin and
LRH turned out to be very real, and during pre-induction physicals LRH had passed while my cousin did not. It was just my cousin's way of keeping his friend's memory alive in a backward private way.
It turned out my cousin's father had accepted LRH's
medals and citations in lieu of LRH having any family and all the old timers knew this, but few beyond them remembered it. Once the story got
out in our community several old timers came forward to confirm it was all true.
Amazon 7
QuoteKeep it civil or it's all going to be trashed.
If you'd like to discuss this topic without my moderation, Yahoo.com makes "groups" all day long. Feel free to use them.
Personally I think all the posters in this thread need to jump a 1971 period surplus round parachute and land at the Ariel Tavern for the 40th annual Cooper party on 24 November 2011.
georger 244
QuoteQuoteKeep it civil or it's all going to be trashed.
If you'd like to discuss this topic without my moderation, Yahoo.com makes "groups" all day long. Feel free to use them.
Personally I think all the posters in this thread need to jump a 1971 period surplus round parachute and land at the Ariel Tavern for the 40th annual Cooper party on 24 November 2011.
oh that's helpful!
who are you? Hilary Clinton?
377 22
QuotePersonally I think all the posters in this thread need to jump a 1971 period surplus round parachute and land at the Ariel Tavern for the 40th annual Cooper party on 24 November 2011.
Cooper didnt hit a specific landing target, why should we have to?
I have well over a hundred surplus round jumps, but only ONE of them resulted in a precision landing in the center of the DZ's pea gravel pit. I had a couple that were miles away.
If I ever go to the DB Cooper party in Ariel, I think I'll drive. It really doesn't hold that much draw for me. I can find a bunch of drunks to BS with about Cooper a lot closer to home than Ariel WA. I don't even have to leave the DZ, just hang around for a bit after the last load.
If Cooper survived, did he ever attend the party at Ariel? I wonder if the FBI attended?
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 said:
I believe they did for the first few years (of the party).
An FBI agent told me that, but I can’t tell you who it was.
Actually, I just can't remember, it was either Carr or Himmelsbach, since those are to only two FBI agents I have ever talked to (about NORJAK, I talk to a lot of them every five years for my clearance, and almost continually for friends, wife, and associates.)
I believe the first party was the year the statute of limitations expired (1976). I don’t think the revelers knew about the John Doe indictment. Maybe D.B. didn't either!
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
QuoteI wonder if the FBI attended?
I believe they did for the first few years (of the party).
An FBI agent told me that, but I can’t tell you who it was.
Actually, I just can't remember, it was either Carr or Himmelsbach, since those are to only two FBI agents I have ever talked to (about NORJAK, I talk to a lot of them every five years for my clearance, and almost continually for friends, wife, and associates.)
I believe the first party was the year the statute of limitations expired (1976). I don’t think the revelers knew about the John Doe indictment. Maybe D.B. didn't either!
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
Below a repeat of my last post:
After the post something you should know.
Safecracker tried to tell you all about the probability of the money time line and deposit on Tena's Bar 2 yrs ago. No one chose to listen - no one chose to believe - but, soon you will believe. There will be the nay sayers who will forever debate the subject, as the assassination of Kennedy has been debated over and over..till none of it matters.
What is KNOWN regarding Cooper may not be made public by our own government and by the time it is declassified (if ever) - no one will remember this forum or the woman who knew too much. I am not a writer or anyone important and never wanted to be - I have just wanted the truth.
Recent findings and hidden information are setting me FREE.
It was NOT FAIR that our OWN government would condone the non-disclosure that has happened regarding Dan Cooper.
There have been other lives (not just mine) destroyed by the secrets kept filed away by the FBI and our own government regarding this case. The FBI site regarding D.B. Cooper and the agent is comical for those of us who know the truths - we laugh at the myths that "Official FBI site" is perpetrating.
The lies this government has kept for yrs - after and prior to 1971 - is NOT the America most of us would choose. Decisions where made without the disclosures even after they were done. It was the governments choice to keep its dirty laundry tucked safely away - to attempt to erase the files. Slowly information leaks thur the cracks as the wall of containment continues to deteriorate due to age. All of the secrets will never be known, but this one will - because there was physical evidence and the technical world has made it easier for connections among individuals and groups to be made.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
You guys can do all of the posting you want, but you will be posting air. Ihave spent the last 2 days (one of 22 hours) under intense questioning and my files being scrutinized. Perhaps the 22 hr day was deliberate to see if I could still hold on to what I have been saying for yrs.
remember I told about a cave on a ridge off of Hwy 14 and you guys scoffed at the idea. Your reply had to do with the condition of the money.If I suggest something it is delusional and a lie - but, let someone else come along with the same suggestion - it is suddenly very interesting to the thread.
I handed you guys 2 viable suspects besides Weber, but you still choose to make this thread about your theories and STUFF rather than about subjects and hows and whys. Without a viable suspect you are just whipping a dead horse.
I am quilty of connecting things that should not be connected, but there is NO WAY anyone of you could possibly keep this massive file in your heads...When Sluggo was here he only licked the icing and never took a big slice of the cake.
Large slices have been cut into that cake recently and within are LOTS of surprises. The cake is stale, but that is ok.
You guys choose to chase your own delusional conclusions and that is your choice. (How does it feel to have the dislusional call you dislusional?) Distorting the facts is also is your choice.
This forum is no longer about finding out who Cooper is or was - but one that satisfies each of your own egos - and theories. Perhaps the readers someday will look back after the truth is revealed - and perhaps then you will be the delusional and crazy ones - NOT me.
The main point is that NOT one of you has presented a subject nor facts that fit the crime - NOT one! I AM not a professional researcher nor a writer - I did not know HOW to present what I have - when this is done FOR ME by others - be prepared for a shock - it will destroy the very foundation of your own self important motives.
As for Jerry - he knows ABSOLUTELY nothing - he has not one time provided any facts that could be verified, but chooses to only post deflamatory posts regarding me and about me - yet, you guys do NOT attack him and call him names or talk about HIS MENTAL problems. This thread is NO LONGER ABOUT COOPER - IT IS ABOUT A LOT OF EGOS and misplaced Intellects.
This thread is NO LONGER about solving this case - it has been solved and as 2 AGENTS told me it is CLOSED????? Figure that one out!
THERE is NO proof Weber was not COOPER:
1. prints - unknown if they belonged to Cooper or had been there since the plane was built.
2. DNA - no confirmation the tie belonged to Cooper or had been left there by a prior passenger on the first leg of the trip or if it was left intentionally.
3. NO one confirmed or proved Weber could NOT be Cooper. NO pictures where provide nor any sworn statements taken by the FBI regarding any family member who may have claimed to have see him
4. A family member has stated Weber had paratrooper training.
This does not make it true.
5. One family member was terrified the truth would incriminate her - think about the stigma attached to that in the 70's 80's 90's and even now. This would have been embarassing. They could be implicated even though there was NO involvement until after the crime.
6. Perhaps there was more than ONE person involved.
7. HOW and WHY was WA chosen and WHY a 727?
8. HOW and WHY did Weber know WA the way he did - this is just not co-incidential?
9. How and why could WEBER be seen and known to be in more than one location at a time.
10. How and why did Weber obtain an old ID from the past in 1990 when he became ill.
11. How and why did WEBER just disappear several times.
12. Why did he confess?
13. Where did the stub, ticket and bag come from?
14. Why did he leave in a safe only a book?
15. Why has the fictional media latched on to BuDop when that was a needle in the haystack that had only been dicussed only in this forum regarding Cooper?
These Whys could go on and on, but I will tell you that I am NOT autistic, nor dislusional, nor a liar, nor any of the horrible unkind things I have been called in this forum.
16. Perhaps the most important question right now - is WHY would anyone even be that unkind? Just because my suspect happens to be my deceased husband does NOT make that any less important than the jibberish you guys post.
17. Question why certain posters are so incinerated by my posts? Perhaps they have something to hide themselves.
18. If there was truely government involvement - do not any one of you believe they would put posters in this forum to discredit me any way they can? If our own government would go as far as they have gone to COVER up OTHER things - they definitely would not want this one disclosed.
19. The Cooper incident placed our US citizens in jeopardy in a 727. If the government had anything to do with this crime - directly or indirectly,this would today be considered an act of terrorism. Perhaps Cooper acted on his own, but this particular hijacking required some thought and concealment was a very serious part of that plan.
20. Was Cooper just Lucky? OR was Cooper just planned to look lucky? Was it a desparate act by a desparate man? BUT, where did he obtain the training to pull this off?
P.S. Not one of you ever really looked at Camp Siebert and WHY the FBI has lied to me - was not excusible.. There WAS NO NEED to lie about the background of a man they thought was NOT Cooper
21. I will give you ONE last thing to think about - On a military base in the 40's what was an action called Smoking?
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
then drops later ... but they didnt find any cloth or
evidence of a snag at Reno.
Im sorry but I just dont see the money at Tina
Bar getting there by a complex hydrological
solution, but dropped there or near there, because
there is not one item of evidence inthe money (so far) that indicates it was ever anywhere else.
If the money floated to T Bar it either got there
very early or later with debris carrying it there,
because a bag of wet money does not float!
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