DB Cooper

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Jo said:

Quote

Thank you Sluggo for that - because you and I both know the conversation Georger is reciting is NOT true.

You’re welcome.

No I don’t know what georger was saying isn’t true. I don’t think it’s true, but I don’t know that. I just didn’t think it was right for one of the people who keeps slamming you because you never provide any evidence to go with your claims (a group that includes me), to make a statement (that is a challenge to your character) without showing some evidence that the conversation ever took place. I wasn’t taking sides, just asking georger to be fair about it.

If I were you (or Duane’s friend) I’d drop the “lawyer-ing up” talk. This is the internet, not real life. That would be a major waste of time, money, and effort. And… don’t forget that you have made some pretty ugly assertions about georger on this forum. (He is a plant from the CIA or FBI and is just here to discredit you). What goes around, comes around.

Now, back to what interest me today… those signatures. About the one you can’t ID, the date in the filename tells YOU (probably not others) what document (card) it is from. Got it now? I don’t know why I never noticed it before. I was looking at the Sibert letter and thinking about his backward–slanting (left handed) writing style. On the stack was the other document. I said; “Whoaaaa… this can’t be right.”

I don’t think the signature differences have anything to do with NORJAK. But, I do find it odd and intriguing. As I have said before, your research of Duane’s life leads me to believe Duane had something major going on… but nothing in it indicates he was Cooper. [I’m beginning to think; “Federal witness protection program.]

In a future post, I’ll finish yelling at you and tell you why my Camp Sibert research led me to believe it had nothing to do with Duane being “special” and definitely why it doesn’t link to Cooper.

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[snowmman 3]

what's the mystery? I thought that thing you're trying to create mystery about was Duane's fingerprint card.

Didn't we talk about that already? Ckret mentioned several varying signatures. I suspect Ckret's theory to be wrong though...since it's different than the signature of the Officer taking the prints (see the card). Maybe Duane signed with right hand sometimes?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3245849;search_string=prints%20weber;#3245849

the print card is here
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3245653;search_string=prints%20weber;#3245653

you can see the sig in master1.jpg
master2.jpg has a bigger version of master1.jpg

Am I correct? Is Sluggo saying that he thinks no one here has any memory?

ok, show of hands: How many others out there post while naked?

(edit) Oh: too funny. Sluggo's right slanting signature is not from the fingerprint card, although it matches it. Sluggo's signature spells out the middle name. The fingerprint card doesn't. (surrounding printed type is different..it's from some kind of legal document though).

(edit) If there are any female researchers of Weber out there who would like me to examine their files, send email to the paypal address.

(edit) I just realized that it makes sense to ask the question: "Was Duane Weber murdered?"

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I see that you finally discovered it was a different document (than the sig card). Yes, Sluggo has a memory, it's just afflicted with CRS (Can't Remember Shit)

I'm glad I specifically asked for your input... I knew you'd be helpful.

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Jo,


I’m really tired and don’t want to make a long, convoluted, drawn-out post, so here are some excerpts from my notes on Camp Sibert. I have highlighted the issues that answer your questions or lead me to understand how Duane ended up there as his first training assignment after entering the Army.

Duane’s military career:
06/18/1941 - 5/30/1942 (11.5 months) US Navy.
Never above the rank of APS 2nd. Court Martial 2-18-1942 and placed on six month probation. "Bad Conduct Discharge" for probation violation. Attempted to re-enlist around November 1942, denied on November 18, 1942.

03/31/1943 - 07/14/1943 (3.5) US Army
Inducted at Ft. Hayes, OH 03/31/1943 two weeks later already at Camp Sibert. Never above the rank of Private. In letter to mother on 04/15 1943 states; "I have one more week on probation, then I can go anywhere on base." (Less than two weeks at camp.) Given "Undesirable Discharge" 3 weeks later.

Notes on "Bad Conduct Discharge" vs. "Undesirable Discharge":
"Bad Conduct Discharge" - Court-martialed felons
"Undesirable Discharge" - repeated petty offenders

Notes on Camp Sibert:
Camp Sibert was acquired in July 1942 by the U.S. Army as a replacement training center for the Chemical Warfare Service (CWS). The second Chemical Warfare School was also established there during World War II. At Camp Sibert the CWS conducted various training exercises such as smoke screen defense, chemical decontamination, chemical depot maintenance, and chemical impregnation of clothing. Chemical soldiers were also involved in smoke generation missions.

Letter to Mom was signed with a reference to " Co. A (or D) 2st CWS (L written over and converted to C) Trng Regt Camp Sibert, AL. U". Unit actually was "2nd CWS Training Regiment Camp Sibert, AL"

War Department directives provided that chemical warfare training should cover the fields of smoke, incendiary, and gas; yet the primary concern of the CWS prior to World War II was unquestionably with gas.

Since the service had been created by Congress as an answer to the military threat of toxic chemicals, the status of the CWS as an independent technical service could scarcely have been justified if it were not prepared to cope with this major menace. Fear of gas was largely fear of the unknown, and its antidote was, in large measure, to acquaint troops with toxic agents and how to counteract them. To impart such understanding was the primary training responsibility of the Chemical Warfare Service and the point of departure for the whole CWS mission. The training of troops in protection against war gases to insure survival of an enemy attack and the training of CW units were both done at Camp Sibert.

Camp Sibert, established in Alabama’s Etowah and St. Clair counties in 1942, was a replacement training center for the CWS. Training included such tasks as smoke screening, chemical decontamination, chemical depot maintenance, and chemical impregnation work. During exercises, fuming sulfuric acid (FS) (a solution of sulfur trioxide dissolved in chlorosulfonic acid) was dropped on troops from airplanes to simulate aerial mustard attacks.

Camp Sibert was equipped with a Field Filling Area (spray tanks with FS), a Toxic Gas Handling Area, a Toxic Gas Yard, and decontamination operations areas that supported decontamination training in which chemical agents were used. Training at Camp Sibert ended and the camp was closed in April 1945. In July 1947, the Technical Escort Detachment conducted a survey of Camp Sibert. Toxic gas areas were located and subsequently decontaminated in accordance with the standards of the time.

There was a public outcry to use poison gas against the Japanese. The US Military made preparation to do so, but only if the Japanese used gas themselves. As a result, each unit had at least one soldier who could use the 4.2-inch Gas Mortar and handle the chemical and gas shells for the mortar. If toxics were used, they would be expected to instruct the others in the unit.

While at Camp Sibert, units and individuals trained in basic military training. This is "Basic Training."

While at Camp Sibert, units and individuals also trained in the use of chemical weapons, decontamination procedures, and smoke operations.

The 4.2” chemical mortar was the heavy weapon of choice at Camp Sibert. Although it was originally designed to deliver chemical agents and smoke, it was also adapted to fire HE rounds.

Conclusions:
Camp Sibert was a Recruit Training Command (RCT). The existing RTC moved from Edgewood Maryland to Camp Sibert in the summer of 1942. All recruits in the CWS went to Basic Training at Camp Sibert in the period of July 1942 through 1945. Beginning in the fall of 1942 a second command was added (Unit Type Code (UTC) unknown to me).

Conclusions Specific to Duane:
Duane spent 11 months in the Navy and was given a Bad Conduct Discharge for probation violation. He successfully enlisted in the Army and was assigned to the CWS upon enlisting. He was sent to Camp Sibert for basic training but only lasted there for 3.5 months. He was given an Undesirable Discharge. The fact that he attempted to re-enlist in the Navy and successfully enlisted in the Army, indicates that he was never a "Conscientious Objector" (CO).

That's why I dropped Sibert as an "Area of Interest."

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[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Hey! Seriously…
I need some opinions especially a “handwriting expert’s.” I don’t know squat about handwriting, but I do know the “Which one is different from the others” game. I especially value snowmman’s and georger’s opinions on this. As far as I can tell most of them were written by a “strong left hander,” but one was not.

You all know that Jo has been making this extraordinary claim about Duane doing service for someone else or visa versa (I don’t remember because I never thought it had any basis), look at the samples of Duane’s handwriting below. They range from 1942 – 1956, which may be part of the story.

The only modification I did to these scans was to remove some ‘Personally Identifiable Information” (PII) from them.

I will finish my rant to Jo when I get output from you guys.

Okay I am looking at the signatures and I found 3 that appear to be right handed signatures of Duane L. Weber.

The first one is a service registration card #12,035-A with a serial number of 91-A for U.S. Maritime Commission. The Birthdate is given as 6/18/22 . Not Duane's handwriting as I knew it, but appears to be his handwriting.

Also note that the birthdate is false - Duane was only 17 and was born in 1924.

Item 2 is an Armed forces Induction Station #4 Dated Mar 31, 1943. Stamped # 35608905. but it only has his name written on it and matches the handwriting on the 1942 item.
This did not require a signature, - two branches of the military and both having Duane Weber in the same handwriting.

This item states he is being sent to Fort Hayes, Ohio.

The Navy records provided by Uncle Sam also have that SAME signature dated June 18, 1941 on the papers Duane had to sign before a Earl v. Sherman Lietu-Comdr., U.S. Navy Officer-in-Charge USNRS Cleveland Ohio and also has the man's signature as administrating the oath.

After reviewing these signatures and other signatures down thru the yrs - I believe they are ALL signatures of Duane L. Weber. As time goes along in life we become somewhat relaxed with our handwriting. In the 30's when Duane was taught penmanship you basically were required to turn the paper so the script was more acceptable. This rule of conformity became un-acceptable in later yrs. I have a brother and a sister who are left handed - one continues to turn the paper and twist the hand to make the writing look more normal - the other just writes and could care less if anyone thinks it is slanted the wrong way.

They are all signatures of Duane L. Weber...at least I think so.

The reason I keep asking about Camp Sibert is because some information I received stated - "Smoking" as one of the training courses and with no other words associated with it. That is why I asked about Smoking. I agree with your findings that Camp Sibert had little or nothing to do with Cooper (just wanted to know what 'Smoking' meant on that site).

Since Camp Sibert was into a lot of strange things - maybe they had something to do with the slant of Duane's handwriting change. Now you know I am just laughing with you - this is NOT making fun or putting anyone down.

If I had been the one to make this observation the guys would be Hee Hawing me and calling me dislusional - seeing Duane in the clouds. Everyone including myself should be able to speculate and look at things a different way...this is how investigator solve crimes - they have to go out on a limb.

On first observation the handwriting does indeed look different - but, the same. When you keep looking at it and have many more signatures to compare it with...your view of the signature changes and resolves itself.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

It's likely someone else signed those, impersonating Duane.
Duane may have been out on an operation, with gas or smoke at the time.

I still get chills thinking about what Duane was up to. I suspect that Duane had a real bomb on the plane.

(edit) You can read this post, and click to the next page, thinking "Someone else will send money to the 'Duane Weber Is Cooper' Foundation." But if everyone says that, there is no "someone else". Take that spare change and paypal it. You'll be glad you did. No money is given to Jo Weber.

[snowmman 3]

says http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1947703,00.html
"Most Domestic 'Jihadists' Are Educated, Well-Off"

Except for Zazi of course.

But apparently they are also skillfull profiteers off the back of the U.S. proletariat:

""Most Muslims in [the U.S.] are doing well, so those who have been radicalized tend to come from that class."

I knew it. It wasn't guys like Madoff that screwed us over. It was Jihadists on Wall Street!

The Class War is On! Lawyer Up!

[skyjack71 0]

Sluggo stated:

Quote

Conclusions Specific to Duane:
Duane spent 11 months in the Navy and was given a Bad Conduct Discharge for probation violation. He successfully enlisted in the Army and was assigned to the CWS upon enlisting. He was sent to Camp Sibert for basic training but only lasted there for 3.5 months. He was given an Undesirable Discharge. The fact that he attempted to re-enlist in the Navy and successfully enlisted in the Army, indicates that he was never a "Conscientious Objector" (CO).

After 2 attempts - one with the Navy and another with the Army and then Duane ending up in McNeil - the family arranged for Duane to be in a camp through a family friend hoping to get him straightened out. This was told to me in a conversation by the brother. Also when we were in Tahoe - Duane talked about the mountains and pointed to a road going up the other side of Lake Tahoe.

Duane told me about living at a location that I verified really does exist. Duane had shown me a picture similar to one posted in this forum regarding CPS in the same area. He stated he knew these guys. Through this forum I learned 3 of the guys went on to become smokejumpers in the Mt Hood area of Or.

The picture shown to me yrs ago was of this same group posted by Snowmman, but the picture I had orginally seen in the 1980's showed more of the truck. We have looked high and low for the book this might have been published in - because Duane stated there used to be a picture of him in the book, but someone had cut it out. Duane NEVER showed me the front of that book and what he showed me is ALL I saw.

Snowmman has made miracles before - I contacted the Jon Harder who had posted the CPS pic on Wikipedia where Snow obtained it, but Jon Harder (son of Leo Harder) never responded nor did the site.

The book this would have orginally been published in had to be in the 50's 60's or 70's and would may have been an area specific book. My guys and I have search high and low - the guy in Ca. has gone to the archives, but it is not the same as my seeing it (I cannot describe what I am looking for when the picture is inside of my memory). This book was not real thick and it was small. But it was about Smokejumpers and CPS and had pictures in it taken by that same photographer - because the picture of Carl Unruh was the same and the group was very close - just showing more of the truck. There may have been a picture in the book showing more of the truck.

I never saw the outside of this book. The pictures in the book would date from 1944 to 1947.

Sorry to bore you with this - but any assistance anyone can provide will be appreciated - you can PM me about it. I don't want to bore the forum with Weber, but there are things someone out there might know to assist me.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Jo reported "The picture shown to me yrs ago was of this same group posted by Snowmman, but the picture I had orginally seen in the 1980's showed more of the truck. We have looked high and low for the book this might have been published in - because Duane stated there used to be a picture of him in the book, but someone had cut it out. Duane NEVER showed me the front of that book and what he showed me is ALL I saw. "


Yes I have a lot more information about Duane and that truck. But it was discovered as a benefit of an anonymous donor, who only asked that I not reveal all of the information to a grieving widow who wouldn't be able to take it.

I honored that request. The grateful donor recently gave some more money, as a thank you for honoring the request.

(edit) That reminds me. I have to remind the donor that I once again did not reveal information, but ask nothing from him, I mean her/it, in return. And that I, a humble forum poster, would never dishonor him by begging.

(edit) Jo acknowledged "Snowmman has made miracles before"
Don't worry. I will make the sun rise tomorrow, again. All bets are off after the new year though.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

That reminds me. I have to remind the donor that I once again did not reveal information, but ask nothing from him, I mean her/it, in return.

I sometimes think this entire thread is predicated on not revealing information

Hey Snow tell me - and I am serious now: has the FBI ever proved that you aren't Cooper?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Remember when FBI head J Edgar Hoover said "La Cosa Nostra doesn't exist"?

The FBI has taken a similar self serving position on Snowmman.

Zazi is priority one. The FBI found five "disabled" smoke detectors on his apartment raising questions about whether a "dirty bomb" was being contructed. In response to questions at a closed Congressional committee hearing the FBI SAC admitted that the "disabled" smoke detectors were still affixed to the ceiling and merely had dead batteries, but noted that a Tritium exit sign had been stolen from a theater that Zazi had been known to frequent.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

That reminds me. I have to remind the donor that I once again did not reveal information, but ask nothing from him, I mean her/it, in return.

I sometimes think this entire thread is predicated on not revealing information

Hey Snow tell me - and I am serious now: has the FBI ever proved that you aren't Cooper?

Okay this part is true.
I did fly on MD-80s this past week. Actually 4 different, since it wasn't non-stop. I was surprised to see how many MD-80s actually are in service. I guess the Cooper/rear stairs thing tunes one in.

So on the last leg, I go thru TSA screening etc. And I'm waiting at the gate, and like 5 burly TSA guys show up (this is after the normal screening at the common entry point). And the person at the gate desk announces TSA is going to screen again for us, special, at the gate.

So they go thru, kind of in a haphazard way. They don't really line up all the passengers...kind of drifting around, asking for ID and boarding pass. They use a little fluorescent light to shine on the boarding pass..I guess there's some percentage of fakes they can detect that way (Don't be stupid: contact SI to avoid getting detected by these little lights!)

And then we all board.

So I ask you: has the FBI fingered Snowmman to be Cooper?

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Remember when FBI head J Edgar Hoover said "La Cosa Nostra doesn't exist"?

The FBI has taken a similar self serving position on Snowmman.

Zazi is priority one. The FBI found five "disabled" smoke detectors on his apartment raising questions about whether a "dirty bomb" was being contructed. In response to questions at a closed Congressional committee hearing the FBI SAC admitted that the "disabled" smoke detectors were still affixed to the ceiling and merely had dead batteries, but noted that a Tritium exit sign had been stolen from a theater that Zazi had been known to frequent.

377

Funny.

To be serious, the real problem here is that it's easy for one person who has a grudge, to cause chaos. We've created a world where that's true. But we somehow don't want to live with the consequences of doing that.

The "terror" aspect of it really comes from our media...who likes bold letters. ZAZI HATES YOU AND WANTS YOU DEAD. Well lots of people want lots of people dead.

What does impress me, is that there are lots of folks working hard, to make infrastructure more terrorism resistant (actually: more "crazy nut case" resistant)

The ready availability of serious weaponry makes it kind of difficult. If I can convince 3 other guys to arm up with me, we can pretty much take over anything (after a little training) and cause heartache (as long as we don't care about living or dying: but hell, some drugs and women can help me with that end of the deal).

The transition for us will be in how we live with it as a normal part of life. Like how we came to live with the presence of nuclear weapons. ...even though part of the chain of "protection" is just guys like Sluggo :)

Merry Christmas! Duane is Cooper! Feliz Navidad!

[snowmman 3]

Another title for this study (Nature 462, 911-914 (17 Dec 2009) might be "Why Economists are Dangerous. (Because they understand math)". Note the comparison to financial markets.


"Its similarity to financial market models provides a surprising link between violent and non-violent forms of human behaviour."

http://www.nature.com/news/2009/091216/full/462836a.html
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v462/n7275//full/nature08631.html
"Many collective human activities, including violence, have been shown to exhibit universal patterns. The size distributions of casualties both in whole wars from 1816 to 1980 and terrorist attacks have separately been shown to follow approximate power-law distributions. However, the possibility of universal patterns ranging across wars in the size distribution or timing of within-conflict events has barely been explored. Here we show that the sizes and timing of violent events within different insurgent conflicts exhibit remarkable similarities. We propose a unified model of human insurgency that reproduces these commonalities, and explains conflict-specific variations quantitatively in terms of underlying rules of engagement. Our model treats each insurgent population as an ecology of dynamically evolving, self-organized groups following common decision-making processes. Our model is consistent with several recent hypotheses about modern insurgency is robust to many generalizations, and establishes a quantitative connection between human insurgency, global terrorism and ecology. Its similarity to financial market models provides a surprising link between violent and non-violent forms of human behaviour."

"The researchers collected data on the timing of attacks and number of casualties from more than 54,000 events across nine insurgent wars, including those fought in Iraq between 2003 and 2008 and in Sierra Leone between 1994 and 2003. By plotting the distribution of the frequency and size of events, the team found that insurgent wars follow an approximate power law, in which the frequency of attacks decreases with increasing attack size to the power of 2.5. That means that for any insurgent war, an attack with 10 casualties is 316 times more likely to occur than one with 100 casualties (316 is 10 to the power of 2.5)."

[Orange1 0]

Interesting. I've seen an NBER (I think it was) study on family violence. (Goes up when a home team loses a big game, by the way.) I think I posted ages ago another study on criminality. I wonder if there has been anything ever done specifically on plane hijackings...not sure if they could get a big enough sample to isolate specific factors.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Quote

Our model treats each insurgent population as an ecology of dynamically evolving, self-organized groups following common decision-making processes.

that definition sure rules out skydivers.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

I was surprised to see how many MD-80s actually are in service.

Not me. Douglas builds em tough. How many 50 year old Boeings still fly in commercial service? Many DC 3s and even some 4s 6s and two DC 7s still fly.

Sadly no Boeing 377s survive.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 244]

Quote

Interesting. I've seen an NBER (I think it was) study on family violence. (Goes up when a home team loses a big game, by the way.) I think I posted ages ago another study on criminality. I wonder if there has been anything ever done specifically on plane hijackings...not sure if they could get a big enough sample to isolate specific factors.

The answer is yes. Man studies everything that he
knows to study and the things forbidden to study
get the most attention, as one would expect.

Its the things Man does not know exist that Man
has the least difficulty studying. But, from that
fact one can build a long list of things to study
just by imagining, attending church, and visiting
the DB Cooper Dropzone forum.

That methodology (above) escapes the Commandment: "Though shall earn thy keep by
the sweat of thy brow". Nobody wants to work, so
you let others do it for you.

I know about such things because my mother was a Quaker, my father was Jew, and I have German
Nazi whip marks on my back to prove it.

Isnt that why Jo is here? To learn? To get ideas?
Jo is building an arc of a sort which Duane
and Cooper fit into, like bugs in keel wood. The
problem for Jo is her arc has grown so large she
cant find animali to put into it. Jo needed data
so she created this thread to get data. Jo has
been creating threads for years! Each little orchard
Jo plants yields at least one seed of truth which
applies to something, as Jo sees it.

Jo now thanks the forum for its contributions to
her case. What does that tell you?

Sluggo has been the most help in this regard.
Jo begins with a flurry of her hands, Sluggo diverts
attention to "truth" and "credibility", and at the end
of it all Jo has a new elephant where none existed
before, and Jo commandeth the 'phant' to climb
into her arc. Some elephants cooperate. Some don't. All very convenient and true and credible
as certified by Sluggo, because Sluggo has his own arc to fill. I'm just here for the show! I paid $3.99
to watch.

Without an audience a magician can do no tricks!

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Interesting. I've seen an NBER (I think it was) study on family violence. (Goes up when a home team loses a big game, by the way.) I think I posted ages ago another study on criminality. I wonder if there has been anything ever done specifically on plane hijackings...not sure if they could get a big enough sample to isolate specific factors.

(note that the way we think of terrorism and how to control it, should really just be an extension of how we dealt with hijacking..unless you think terrorists are invading the US in large numbers: armies. Now in terms of other countries, that's a different story. But that has a lot of other issues than what we really mean by terrorism)

in terms of "modelling"

the recent stuff on "contagion theory of hijacking" is along those lines. There's been a number of papers some long. (I posted on this back in the thread)
here's a short one
http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~surette/hijacking.html
"It has often been claimed that aircraft hijacking is a "contagious" phenomenon, that the motivation to hijack aircraft spreads from one individual to another as a result of media coverage of hijacking incidents.

This article develops a mathematical model of contagion and applies it to aircraft hijackings in the United States between 1968 and 1972. Analyses show that successful hijackings in the United States did generate additional hijacking attempts of the same type (either transportation or extortion).

There were no contagion effects of unsuccessful hijacking attempts in the United States or any effects on U.S. hijacking attempts of such attempts outside the United States."



also the "rational choice" model of hijacking?
http://www.start.umd.edu/start/publications/lafree_dugan_aerial_hijackings.pdf

"Using data that combines information from the Federal Aviation Administration, the RAND Corporation and a newly developed database on global terrorist activity, we are able to examine trends in 1,101 attempted aerial hijackings that occurred around the world from 1931 to 2003. We have especially complete information for 828 hijackings that occurred before 1986.

Using a rational choice theoretical framework, we use continuous-time survival analysis to estimate the impact of several major counterhijacking interventions on the hazard of differently motivated hijacking attempts and logistic regression analysis to model the predictors of successful hijackings.

Some of these interventions use certainty-based strategies of target hardening to reduce the perceived likelihood of success. Others focus on raising the perceived costs of hijacking by increasing the severity of punishment.

We also assess which strategies were most effective in deterring hijackers whose major purpose was related to terrorism. We found support for the conclusion that new hijacking attempts were less likely to be undertaken when the certainty of apprehension was increased through metal detectors and law enforcement at passenger checkpoints.

We also found that fewer hijackers attempted to divert airliners to Cuba once that country made it a crime to hijack flights. Our results support the contagion view that hijacking rates significantly increase after a series of hijackings closely clustered in time—but only when these attempts were successful.

Finally, we found that the policy interventions examined here significantly decreased the likelihood of nonterrorist but not that of terrorist hijackings."

[snowmman 3]

Quote

.. and at the end
of it all Jo has a new elephant where none existed
before, and Jo commandeth the 'phant' to climb
in her arc.

wait a second. Are you saying that after Duane hijacked 305, he didn't put the money bag in the van?

Are you nuts? Where else would he put it? I always figured the longer the bag was in the van, the more credible the story? We're talking a number of years, right?

(edit) Just noticed an interesting summary from the report above:
"Finally, we found that the policy interventions examined here significantly decreased the likelihood of nonterrorist but not that of terrorist hijackings.""

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

Interesting. I've seen an NBER (I think it was) study on family violence. (Goes up when a home team loses a big game, by the way.) I think I posted ages ago another study on criminality. I wonder if there has been anything ever done specifically on plane hijackings...not sure if they could get a big enough sample to isolate specific factors.

(note that the way we think of terrorism and how to control it, should really just be an extension of how we dealt with hijacking..unless you think terrorists are invading the US in large numbers: armies. Now in terms of other countries, that's a different story. But that has a lot of other issues than what we really mean by terrorism)

in terms of "modelling"

the recent stuff on "contagion theory of hijacking" is along those lines. There's been a number of papers some long. (I posted on this back in the thread)
here's a short one
http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~surette/hijacking.html
"It has often been claimed that aircraft hijacking is a "contagious" phenomenon, that the motivation to hijack aircraft spreads from one individual to another as a result of media coverage of hijacking incidents.

This article develops a mathematical model of contagion and applies it to aircraft hijackings in the United States between 1968 and 1972. Analyses show that successful hijackings in the United States did generate additional hijacking attempts of the same type (either transportation or extortion).

There were no contagion effects of unsuccessful hijacking attempts in the United States or any effects on U.S. hijacking attempts of such attempts outside the United States."



also the "rational choice" model of hijacking?
http://www.start.umd.edu/start/publications/lafree_dugan_aerial_hijackings.pdf

"Using data that combines information from the Federal Aviation Administration, the RAND Corporation and a newly developed database on global terrorist activity, we are able to examine trends in 1,101 attempted aerial hijackings that occurred around the world from 1931 to 2003. We have especially complete information for 828 hijackings that occurred before 1986.

Using a rational choice theoretical framework, we use continuous-time survival analysis to estimate the impact of several major counterhijacking interventions on the hazard of differently motivated hijacking attempts and logistic regression analysis to model the predictors of successful hijackings.

Some of these interventions use certainty-based strategies of target hardening to reduce the perceived likelihood of success. Others focus on raising the perceived costs of hijacking by increasing the severity of punishment.

We also assess which strategies were most effective in deterring hijackers whose major purpose was related to terrorism. We found support for the conclusion that new hijacking attempts were less likely to be undertaken when the certainty of apprehension was increased through metal detectors and law enforcement at passenger checkpoints.

We also found that fewer hijackers attempted to divert airliners to Cuba once that country made it a crime to hijack flights. Our results support the contagion view that hijacking rates significantly increase after a series of hijackings closely clustered in time—but only when these attempts were successful.

Finally, we found that the policy interventions examined here significantly decreased the likelihood of nonterrorist but not that of terrorist hijackings."

glad you tracked them down after my lead -

[snowmman 3]

http://www.cooper-paynetreefarms.com/aboutus.html

Now you might ask after looking at that page. "Why the hell is snowmman talking about a tree farm near Chapel Hill, North Carolina?" ...

Seems innocous. They sell trees. Work on landscape.

But scroll down to the bottom of the link at top...

It says:
"We have space to accommodate our customers who prefer to travel by helicopter"

Now I may not be worldly, but I've never run into people who fly helicopters to visit tree farms.

I'm a little worried SI might be seeing some competition here.


Here's a satellite view of the black site:
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=36.0344552&lon=-79.0962719&z=19&l=0&m=s&v=9

Coordinates: 36°2'4"N 79°5'46"W

What you can see is that they have white adirondack chairs that are 20 feet tall. I'm guessing these are chaff to disguise the apparent size of missile launchers, in satellite images.

For all you disbelievers, the pics of the giant chairs are here:
http://www.cooper-paynetreefarms.com/Garden-Art.html

I was wondering if Duane might have been connected with this black site, and got the Cooper name from it?

[skyjack71 0]

You are the magician - who makes thing appear and disappear and now it is time for you to be Zapped and exposed.

You post trivial crap that does not have anything to do with Cooper and yet the DZ continues to let you take up space.

seek and destroy. I hope the CIA or whoever is paying you well...you had told me you were unemployed.

Someone must be paying you...especially since it appears that when a post of value is made and on subject you interject your trivia.

I have been observing this for a long time now and if the rest of the guys would go back and read the forum (Georger - he does this to you also) - you will find what I am saying is true.

Snow is an appropriate name as he throws out bait to see where it will go - in one specific incident he threw out bait meant only for me - just to see how much I really know. Remember the Camino pictures and never forget them.

The only other purpose he serves is to distract from the subject - his main goal now is to silence me.

Georger before this thread closes - you need to retract the information provided by Jerry Thomas. I may not know who you are, but I know who Jerry is .
You are going right back to being a baboon - they like to mimick people.

As for me - yes, I would like for the thread to say open, but with the trivia that is being posted it does not deserve to be in the category it was placed in at my request. This thread would have been in the likes of BonFire, but I wanted it where there would be SERIOUS posters and convincing Quade of this was not easy.

YOU - Snowmman are responsible for turning this in to a BonFire. I among many others came to this forum for help - for serious research and I have gleaned many thing from the DZ. Occassionally you post something that is useful.

It seems we cannot get back on track - and heaven only knows some of us have tried to do this.
When there are adults out there acting like computer qeeks and children taking up space - nothing is accomplished. In the beginning this thread was very useful to eveyone concerned (even the FBI), but NOT anymore.

You won Snowmman - the CIA and those who want the truth to never to be told - all of you have won...or think you have.

The "D.B. Cooper Skyjacking" was part of a much bigger picture and it is one the government does NOT want exposed. Early on in my search - before I went public there were some people who contacted me. I now know these people were NOT interested in helping me, but themselves. The first thing they had to establish was HOW MUCH DID I REALLY KNOW.

Playing the Brunett with Blonde roots has been an asset. Maybe I am just a bimbo - or as some of you like to think a dislusional woman or someone looking for fame and fortune? Maybe I have been waiting for someone to screw up - waiting for the right time to make my move. Maybe I play chess.

I held the KEY for yrs - but something had to point me right at that key. As Duane always said - Hide it in PLAIN (Plane) site. This story is far from over and it is NOT a story some of you are going to like. If more than one person knows a secret it will not stay a secret forever.

Heads are going to roll and tongues will wag and if your head is still attached it will shake and your eyes will roll - when the truth is made public. 377, this was not an intentional riddle, but it is how I "think".

Yes, there are some people out there who are NOT going to be happy about this - they have had their opportunitiy to come forward - I gave them 13 yrs to come forward. Now I will do it MY WAY.

I have made sure that my files and information are spread across the country. All of my i's are dotted and my t's crossed.
We have acquire documentation when it was available and not destroyed...mostly coincidentally or just missed by others.

By the way - just so you guys know - I have known Tina's location for 7 yrs. What does that say about confidentiality - and trusting and protecting? You see Georger - I was on Tina's side all along...I was protecting her. As someone recently told me - The Cooper search has and does require some deception and some white lies - only acceptable if they are meant to deflect and protect.

So now you know ONE of the lies or deception I have used...therefore everything I have said is a lie according to "decoys" such as Jerry. Since this will probably be my last post - I am not holding back on any feelings for those here who have made life pretty miserable during this search for the truth.

377 has always been the politician - but that is what Attorneys do.

Orange - well, she is being a woman, but a unique woman with an unusual interest. Never really figured her out - but that is the way it is with women.

Sluggo is a sweet intellectual who gets his feeling hurt too easily - but his research has been some of the best ever presented in this case. I never figured him out - but, felt he was easily influenced by others who had an agenda to keep the case unsolved. He has been a hard one to read.

Safecrack - another intellectual who seemed to disappear, but he was able to do what others could not do - he was able to filter out the garbage and more focused then tired of the glibberish presented by Snow and others. These TRUE intellectuals and problem solvers have better things to do and move on to higher ground.
His studies on the money float were dead on. Remember that Carr stated in this forum that the Palmer report indicated the money was not at Tena's bar for a long period of time.

CARR (Ckret) - The FBI never made the above Palmer report available to the forum nor to the public - but good old CARR slipped up in this forum stating the amount of time the money could be in the water - yet, he allowed a group of people to go forth with an expensive research - when they could have been saved time and money, plus a little embarrassement.

Carr needed this exposure - so he could create his niche in life.
He took credit on the FBI site for the Dan Cooper Comic (lead), which by the way is a ridiculous thing to put in an FBI profile of Cooper. Carr is just part of the continuing legend the FBI wants and is allowing to be perpetrated.

I know I have missed lots of you, but I am targeting the most frequent posters. For the rest of you THANK YOU for all of your help and useful contributions.

I expect Jerry Thomas will receive a letter soon asking for a PUBLIC apology. He can lie about me and get away with it, but he had NO idea who else he was DEALING with. If anyone of you think of me as dislusional or a liar - then I suggest you have Jerry look in the mirror. Every time I think about him, I envision the horse cartoon character with the big teeth that is always telling WHOPPERS and completely scrambling what someone else says.

To all of the skyjumpers in this forum - Thank YOU. Without your contributions this thread would not have accomplished what it was intended to do. Eventually the serious jumpers and old timers couldn't get a word in edgewise with the geeks and creeps and myself.

I wish I had a list of all the DZ jumpers who have posted here. Perhaps if some of you are reading this you will post some parting words before we have to say 'BlueSkies' to this thread. Here is Hoping Georger and Snow will STAND DOWN long enough for you to do so.

Those jumpers who would like to contact me with your posting name and your real name and contact number - please do so and it will remain confidential - just like Tina's location did. Again Thank ALL of you for your help. Maybe my journey will take me near your area or DZ's and I would love meeting some of you.

Homes4ubyjo@aol.com

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Hi Jo.
I'm just a nutty guy that posts to a DBC thread.
You're just a nutty woman that does the same.

That's all there is here. The truth hurts (hey I'm just as messed up!)

Hey I noticed that georger seems to be a little more easy going lately, at least by my read! success for the thread?

[georger 244]

I held the KEY for yrs - but something had to point me right at that key. As Duane always said - Hide it in PLAIN (Plane) site. This story is far from over and it is NOT a story some of you are going to like. If more than one person knows a secret it will not stay a secret forever. Homes4ubyjo@aol.com