DB Cooper

[georger 244]

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Orange1: he was pareto optimal in terms of the little things we all talked about being interesting. Although georger would probably say wrong for some reason.

The resulting insight was that it was hopeless for us to identify suspects the way we were going. What we think of as unique, isn't.

I do believe the FBI never tagged him. That was probably the main interesting thing. Since there's this wrong belief that the FBI investigation was wide-ranging based on some insight.
(Did everyone see how they investigated a "Jerry Cooper" who was only 30 years old? WTF?)


So it made me think a couple things
-The FBI investigation was a joke
-There's no way to get to Cooper thru traits/skills/whatever-you-like...any "things" we were discussing
-Got me thinking about how a live Cooper would act. I guess thinking about things made me more comfortable with a dead Cooper in the Columbia.

Mostly, there's no point in debating all these fine points about what a Cooper might be like.

(edit) Oh: it also makes me think all of these Galen Cook things and other people's things about suspects that "match" are a joke. It's like listening to people talk about great, when they only know good.

Not sure about your conclusions re the FBI - to me the fact that the FBI never interviewed him shows one key thing: that they indeed probably did not range as far as Asia in their suspects. If a suspect wasn't in the US, he was out of the line of fire. So maybe your guy wasn't Cooper (did anyone ever get hold of him btw to ask him his opinion on Cooper - I don't recall?) but it still leaves well alive the possibility that if Cooper was hiding out in Asia he would have made it out of reach of FBI. (Plus the enticing option of all those dollar bills being happily accepted out there without being checked by US banks...) And I hear you and Georger saying in the background, just because the theory is good doesn't mean it fits. Sure. But to me it does present a big avenue that wasn't explored.

Incidentally, there was a post by Gosset's son a few weeks ago on a facebook page and he seems as convinced as ever that his father was Cooper.

I think Snow makes some valid points, with examples. I think you do also. Its a blend. In every
(large) investigation by a (large) organisation there
are going to be aspects which go off the rail, so to
speak. Some people throw a net to catch fish vs.
looking for a single species. (In a sense traffic stops are a net and often produce good results). Somebody is always left out, for all kinds of reasons -

Jo's latest is ideational, dissassociative. Her language is very specific. I hope she has some family or friends to take care of her.

[JerryThomas 0]

Orange 1 Gossets son may be enjoying 15 ninute's of fame. I'm sure he doesn't realy believe his father was Cooper. To bad they can't pollygraph all these people. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

Yeah, the Asia thing is interesting to ponder.

You could even see it in Carr, the idea that "Vietnam doesn't matter"...I mean even now, people don't understand how you can get an age match with Vietnam war connection. (as a second example, Hahneman had Vietnam background, and was right age..49). (edit) Braden was another interesting turnup that showed how our thinking about Vietnam and age was biased.


I'm still baffled by Carr's approach to all this. I mean a sensible person would lay out all the possibilities.

If Cooper landed in the Columbia, wouldn't you want to talk about that possibility, in case some fisherman saw something back whenever?

What kind of memories is Carr hoping to jog?

I just can't see the thinking.

(edit) Oh I'm reminded about how Carr just can't see how the stuff in the reports could be wrong about the possibility of the dredge. Another example of how people think they know how things work, but they don't (re dredge blades: size, rpm, and pump behavior and what can pass). Which baffles me, because as I noted (with pictures) ...I believe the same dredge used then, is still there at the Columbia.

(edit) Or why do people suggest certain "facts" are wrong but not others? Tom Kaye felt very comfortable dismissing the geologist's information from 1980. If willing to dismiss that report, why not dismiss other reports? Why was the geologist wrong, but other stuff in the files right?

[georger 244]

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Yeah, the Asia thing is interesting to ponder.

You could even see it in Carr, the idea that "Vietnam doesn't matter"...I mean even now, people don't understand how you can get an age match with Vietnam war connection. (as a second example, Hahneman had Vietnam background, and was right age..49). (edit) Braden was another interesting turnup that showed how our thinking about Vietnam and age was biased.


I'm still baffled by Carr's approach to all this. I mean a sensible person would lay out all the possibilities.

If Cooper landed in the Columbia, wouldn't you want to talk about that possibility, in case some fisherman saw something back whenever?

What kind of memories is Carr hoping to jog?

I just can't see the thinking.

(edit) Oh I'm reminded about how Carr just can't see how the stuff in the reports could be wrong about the possibility of the dredge. Another example of how people think they know how things work, but they don't (re dredge blades: size, rpm, and pump behavior and what can pass). Which baffles me, because as I noted (with pictures) ...I believe the same dredge used then, is still there at the Columbia.

(edit) Or why do people suggest certain "facts" are wrong but not others? Tom Kaye felt very comfortable dismissing the geologist's information from 1980. If willing to dismiss that report, why not dismiss other reports? Why was the geologist wrong, but other stuff in the files right?

all valid points! Nobody can speak for Larry but
I cn say he is more aware of the possibilities than
you seem tothink, in spite of his 'words'. Larry
is very intelligent and very well trained, in a network
of people equally smart and well-trained. Why am I
even saying this? You know that's the case. The
Weber Effect is not real.

Tom Kaye's feelings about Palmer are a deduction
based on Tom's measurements. Tom is no fool
either (in my opnion) but I have no way of knowing
if his measurements are correct or not.

Jerry Thomas is of no value whatever in this because: Jerry Thomas is fixated on Austin Healey's
and Jo Weber. Anyone suffering from that condition
cant be trusted to measure anything! for the Mall to see the dead mountain lion somebody shot near here last week - they are offering free frosty's too! Cant miss that.

[snowmman 3]

W. L. Hendershott was captain of the Eastern Air Lines Boeing 727 that Hahneman jumped out of over Guatemala.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SQUTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AOEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6316,1278490&dq=hijacker+guatemala&hl=en

I've posted before on the list of stuff Hahneman requested and received (including the brand of cigarettes). I just realized that although he got jump suits and crash helmets, I don't remember a reference to shoes.

(SchlitzNGrins: can you name the brand of cigarettes Hahneman asked for? Bonus: how many cigarettes did he get?)

What kind of shoes did Hahneman have? Was he already wearing boots? He jumped into the jungle. Did he lose his shoes?

Interesting question.

Now we know Heady was wearing cowboy boots, right? (and he suffered injuries on landing).

I've not read any reports of Hahneman being injured on landing, although they didn't capture him right away. He might have healed from any minor injuries.

Might be interesting to find Hahneman's DZ.

They started searching "from Puerto Cortes on the Caribbean coast, Santa Rosa de Copan in the west near Guatemala, and a village in the mountainous western area of Yoro"

"..the best guess would be the man came down about 50 miles from the coast near Yoro in a heavily forested area"

Actually now that I'm remembering, I thought I posted something about some locals who actually saw him soon after he landed?? not sure.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SQUTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AOEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6316,1278490&dq=hijacker+guatemala&hl=en

shoes, and jungle. hmmm.

[snowmman 3]

looking back, I had already posted on this
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3286604;search_string=Hahneman%3A%20another%20pic%2C%20more%20background;#3286604

I had gotten this from newspaper archives. Interesting the farmers remembered a lot, including the wiping of sweat with tissues!..But they didn't capture Hahneman till he turned himself in.

"Farmers in the area told government agents they saw a man sitting on the ground counting money before he disappeared into the countryside. Said the man's shoulder and hands were injured. They found harness and jumpsuit at that time. They thought the parachute may have been carried away by poor farmers. The man carried a back pack and a small suitcase and wiped sweat off his face with tissues. See prior post for the list of items he requested during the hijack. Agents said they found used tissues in the area. "

(edit) here's the reference in case you don't believe
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=UNAhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_J4FAAAAIBAJ&pg=6528,3353152&hl=en

There are many other news reports that confirm.

377: here's one thing to remember when searching. Sometimes, you need info published before they knew the guy's name. So you can't just search on "Hahneman". That would only get stuff after they id'ed him.

Interesting that they found the harness and jumpsuit, and knew he was injured, But they checked hospitals and clinics in the area, and produced no information on him.

Could Duane Weber have been in Guatemala assisting on the ground?

[snowmman 3]

I just noticed something in that article I linked above.

a Hahneman sketch before they knew who he was!

This is very cool, because it's interesting to compare to Hahneman's picture (I just posted a good one from Ebony above) and think about Cooper's sketch and what he really looked like.

attached

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger Drive your $50, 000 dollar Austin Healey to the Mall don't forget to pick up the mall rat's. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

sure the sketch seems generic. (source of the pics are in the above posts)
Yet it's not a Cooper sketch, which is supposed to be generic.

The head shape is a good match. The mouth line is good.
also, the lines of cheek/jowls. Neck seems good.
The down pointing nose tip is good?

Hahneman's ears actually jut more.

The hairline is kind of wrong.

But, good match? This is 1972 sketch technology/practice.
(edit) I just updated it to make it a little bigger.

(edit) Interesting: from the sketch, we can deduce that Hahneman was wearing a suit and tie when he hijacked.
I wonder if he removed the tie?
He had a jumpsuit. Maybe not?

[Orange1 0]

ok - i say this as joe soap looking at the pictures not as someone who examines minutely -

- basic face shape and lips seem right
- ears and hairline seem wrong
- what makes the sketch look so good? The glasses ... same issue as the Cooper sketches - the focus always seem to end up on very generic (at the time) spectacle styles which seems to take attention away from actual facial features.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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ok - i say this as joe soap looking at the pictures not as someone who examines minutely -

- basic face shape and lips seem right
- ears and hairline seem wrong
- what makes the sketch look so good? The glasses ... same issue as the Cooper sketches - the focus always seem to end up on very generic (at the time) spectacle styles which seems to take attention away from actual facial features.

yeah, the glasses are pretty interesting as you say.

But also the suit and tie is interesting too as I said.
Basically, the sketch (and the photo) remind us that a lot of Cooper stuff is not "unique"...i.e. glasses, tie, suit.

It also reminds us of how much variance we should allow to the Cooper sketch..assuming they were both "state of the art" in '71-72.

You could argue we should ignore all the common stuff like ties and glasses and suit and say "what is unique about Cooper?"
I think his interactions and demeanor (compared to the other hijackers).

Hahneman asked for a lot more stuff. He knew he was landing in the jungle. Cooper didn't. Isn't it logical that Cooper didn't plan on landing in the jungle?

There's another guy who was mental. He was after Cooper. I'll post him. He asked for high topped boots. He hated women.
What's interesting is he was before Hahneman and planned on jumping in South America. Wonder if Hahneman read about that case?

[Orange1 0]

yup. my opinion re suit and tie is was very common back in those days -- look at the pics of woodward and bernstein as an example ... how many journalists wear ties to work as a matter of course these days?!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

This is just for comparison. A hijack/jump attempt by a mental guy.

Billy Eugene Hurst.
22. 5'-8". 220 lbs. fork lift driver from Houston.
Had two guns. Asked for parachutes, a rope, a machete, high-top hunting boots, and planned to jump over Latin America or South America.

Had an issue with women.
Said his bag had dynamite (didn't).
had come from broken home, twice attempted suicide, and had been commited to a mental hospital.

A passenger who worked for Remington shavers, was asked what his job was by Hurst. After telling, Hurst replied "I work for the devil and I'm going straight to hell and take everyone with me".

Demanded $1 million (and two parachutes)
Had .32 caliber pistol,
and a .357 magnum
and some .22 caliber bullets. Guns were not fired.

He said the bag contained "seven" sticks of dynamite.

He received all the stuff he asked for. Crew ran off when he put the gun down when he was inspecting the gear.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=S3YfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lCgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5865,1267145&dq=hurst+hiijacker&hl=en

Brown hair, brown mustache.
Wanted to fly to Bogota.
Plane was bright red 727. Braniff International. Allowed 94 passengers to leave. Seven crew members hostage for six hours.
They left the plane at 9 pm. (so he hijacked around 3PM?)

Said he had been smoking marijuana the day before. Supposedly had tried heroin.
Former football player. but was "too short" ??
Had been in US Navy. Had received an "undesirable" discharge?
Was wearing a dark blue pinstriped suit.

Picture of him attached (from http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=S3YfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lCgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5865,1267145&hl=en)

Picture of police and the jet attached.
dirty brown hair? rust red mustache?
Claimed he had an I.Q. of 138

"I've got an IQ of 138." he told a stewardess. "This is the last day that I, Billy Eugene, am going to exist. Tomorrow, a new individual will be born".

(edit) oh yeah, he passed a note to the stewardess also
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=S3YfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lCgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5865,1267145&hl=en

hand printed note supposedly said:
"I have some demands I want met," .."Either you meet them or I'll kill everybody on the airplane"

[snowmman 3]

This is just another mental exercise.
I attached an (almost) side profile of Hahneman from when he was brought to the US. (not too long after hijack, I think it was a couple months)

You can see the severely sloping forehead, which is not obvious in the sketch or forward photo. Can see he's a little short? And his nose looks bigger/different from the side.

I wonder what happened to him? He got a life sentence. Wonder if he ever came up for parole, died or still in jail?

(edit) Here's the problem I have with listening to Jerry. Jerry: what kind of model do you have that predicts survival for the jumps of Heady, Hahneman, McNally, and McCoy, but guarantees death for Cooper?

There may be one, but it seems to require a lot of fine-tuning..i.e. more so than the precision of the variables we know.

[377 22]

He was more like Steve McQueen from a movie scene
I said don't mind, but what do you mean your are the one
Who will jump from the plane in a round?
He said I am the one who will jump from the plane in a round


He told me his name was Billy Gene, as he caused a scene
Then every head turned with eyes terrified of the one
Who would jump from the plane in the round.


People always told him be careful what you do
Don't go around jumping round parachutes
And mother always told me be careful what you jump
Be careful what you do 'cause the lie becomes the truth

[Chorus]
Billy Gene is not Dan Cooper
He's just a guy who says Duane is the one
But the kid is pretty dumb
He says that Duane is the one, but the kid is pretty dumb


For countless days and endless nights
The law was on his trail
But who can stand when he's in demand
His schemes and plans
Cause he jumped from the plane in a round
So take my strong advice, just remember to always think twice
(Do think twice)

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

377:

every once and a while there's a reminder this is a jumper's site.

"Hey did you hear about the 5 dudes who hijacked jets and jumped with money?"

"No..square or round?"

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Snowmman said:

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Here's the problem I have with listening to Jerry. Jerry: what kind of model do you have that predicts survival for the jumps of Heady, Hahneman, McNally, and McCoy, but guarantees death for Cooper?

There may be one, but it seems to require a lot of fine-tuning..i.e. more so than the precision of the variables we know.

It’s because Jerry WAS Hahneman (see photo).

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman said:

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Here's the problem I have with listening to Jerry. Jerry: what kind of model do you have that predicts survival for the jumps of Heady, Hahneman, McNally, and McCoy, but guarantees death for Cooper?

There may be one, but it seems to require a lot of fine-tuning..i.e. more so than the precision of the variables we know.

It’s because Jerry WAS Hahneman (see photo).

Maybe! I was wondering if Jo might say they arrested the wrong guy.

How do we know that Duane didn't do multiple hijacks? I mean they didn't use DNA to prove they had the right guy.

Remember they had tissues with sweat from the jumper they claim was Hahneman. Yet they were never produced at this trial.

Why?

The sketch sure looks like Duane. More so than Jerry.

[377 22]

Good one Sluggo! He sure looks a lot like Duane Weber in that photo.

I liked Snowman's round/square joke too.

I wonder why Jo doesnt look into Coast to Coast AM? Based on your recommendation I have listened a bit.

A few nights ago it was Electronic Voice Phenomena. Last night it was Chemtrails.

Did you know there is electronic proof of life after death? Did you know that those jet contrails you see contain far more sinister chemicals than mere hydrocarbon combustion products?

This is serious stuff and it is being covered up by the FBI and CIA. That show is just custom made for Jo. I guess she doesnt like preaching to the choir, which I can understand. Bless her soul for braving the DB Cooper forum on dropzone.com year after year. You gotta admire her tenacity. She isn't taking the easy road.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

There’s a new Cooper thread Here

It’s mostly young people who’s knowledge of NORJAK came from “Without a Paddle,” “Prison Break,” etc. However the person who started it did so after watching the Nat Geo piece.

It's a "gamer" forum.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[377 22]

cute motion graphic in post number 14.

Let's see what the kids do with Cooper. We sure havent solved anything.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

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ok - i say this as joe soap looking at the pictures not as someone who examines minutely -

- basic face shape and lips seem right
- ears and hairline seem wrong
- what makes the sketch look so good? The glasses ... same issue as the Cooper sketches - the focus always seem to end up on very generic (at the time) spectacle styles which seems to take attention away from actual facial features.

Surely if the FBI sketches had been accurate - more suspects would have been reported in theimmediate period after the crime - unless Cooper lived in the South - I am serious when I say that Cooper was NOT front page news in the Georgia area.

Cooper did not just appear out of thin air then Poof! (my old expression)

The guy who contacted me yrs ago was named Doug B.........
not Pasternak - and his suspect had been in jail in Oregon along the coast line. I don't remember the details and DON't feel like pulling his letter and docs at this time - someone remind me later on...I am making a memo to myself to pull them - IF anyone is interested. Otherwise they can say buried in my "stuff".

I do know that he included in his letter documentation about his suspect...one from the FBI and the other I believe from the Sheriffs dept. of that location.

The story as I remember it he had been in jail with this guy who he claimed was Cooper. Since there is a letter from the FBI - they obviously checked it out.

Who knows maybe this guy contocted all of his docs. but they look legitimate to me.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman I don't have a model. What I do have is years of experience.What I took into consideration on my decision is the conditions at the time of the Jump. Weather, the way he was dressed, his inexperience involving the way he prepaired for the jump. and the area he landed in. Not even I could have survived that jump. I know of no one that could have. So lets see if we can find some fool with very little experience strap on a chute he is unfamiliar with and not user friendly. and no boots dressed in a suit with 25lbs straped to him at night with no none drop zone. Except a known dense forest during a storm and see if he survive's. Orange 1 do you know of a candidate for this jump How about you slugo. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

We talked about one documented case (I think around Boston?) where the airstair opened in flight.
I found another (could be the same one?)

What's interesting is how he describes the sensations in the plane. He says there was airframe vibration.
Then he says the vibration diminished after a few seconds, but their climb rate was lessened.

He also describes how they went to a lower altitude, depressurized, and then opened the rear door to reach out and tie the stair lever down, to prevent the stair from crashing down on landing (while being held by someone)

He still noticed increased fuel burn with the stairs in the semi-deployed position, and changed landing plans.


You can scroll back and forth reading pages in this book, to be confident it's a true account. Written by a guy flying 36 years.

"Ace Abbott was born and raised in upstate New York, entered the U.S. Air Force in 1965 and became an F-4 Phantom pilot based in the Far East. He began his civilian career as a Learjet corporate/charter pilot, spending his last twenty-two years as a Boeing 727 captain. He retired in 2002 after visiting forty-four countries with fourteen different airlines."

http://books.google.com/books?id=s0Ej4TvCY-wC&pg=PT149&dq=%22db+cooper%22&lr=&client=firefox-a&cd=118#v=onepage&q=%22db%20cooper%22&f=false

[377 22]

Snowmman said he'd do it for $1500 a day as I recall.

I think I could jump from a 727 with that NB6-C9 rig and get to the ground without major injury even in a storm, even at night, but ONLY with a lot of luck. Without the luck I could have a river landing, a very high tree snag, jagged rocks and all sorts of hazards that would mean a zero chance of safe egress. Without safe egress or assistance, you'd die eventually.

But landing safe is just the start. Hypothermia is no joke and I've heard that it can happen in wet weather that isnt even close to freezing cold. Your judgement goes to hell really fast when you are hypothermic.

Snow had a lot to say about this but I have forgotten what his conclusions were. I think he disagreed strongly with Jerry.

Snow and Jerry know a lot more about wilderness conditions and survival than I do. I am just a fair weather sport jumper. I'd like to reopen the debate about survival possibilities that night.

How about getting Hollywood to sponsor your Cooper survival jump Snow? We'd equip you with radio and emergency beacon gear so that you could be found if conditions got too tough. Geraldo Rivera would be the perfect host for this TV special.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.