DB Cooper

[georger 244]

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Snow wrote:

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Every military guy I've ever met has been dumb as a board. And unsafe to be with, because they've been coddled in the massive-group approach the military has.

That's not been my experience. I have a friend who is ex USCG. He doesn't have a degree but he's smart as hell. He was a top main frame troubleshooter for IBM back in the day. He did far more than blindly swap circuit cards. He can fix anything from diesel engines to radar transceivers.


A guy I work with has long hair in a pony tail but spent many years in the left seat of a B 52G bomber. He is creative and flexible. Smart as hell too with degrees in law and engineering.

There are dummies in uniform and dummies in expensive suits.

377

Hate to say it but just another one of Snow's sweeping generalisations. There are "dumb" people in every walk of life ....... banking comes to mind!

Which is worse? Myopic or Dumb? Not sure there's
any difference. But all types are required to do
a day's work on Earth. Crazy people is another matter!

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman. His chances of survival.My statement was why I thought he didn't survive the jump was he was not properly prepaired or trained to survive under the condition's in which he Jumped.His action's indicates this to me.Jerry

[georger 244]

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Jerry,

Snow knows a retired soldier isn't likely to have enough spare cash to charter a helo. Can you put Snow (blindfolded) in a 4WD or ATV and get him to a suitable area? I guess he'd just follow the tracks out so maybe a helo is needed after all.

377

I want to be alone in the woods with him and convince him to pull a weapon on me too, so I can beat the shit out of him.
I'm tired of these assholes with guns like Jerry and Sluggo.
Like it means shit.

(edit) Jerry: I'm 6'4". Right now I weigh 190-195. My usual good weight is 180-185. You know what I'm tired of? All these women who startle when I come around the corner, like I'm supposed to apologize for scaring them. I'll take it out on you.

sounds to me like you never really have been to
town yet ... and seen the Elephant!

Next circus that comes to town, go!

Visit the gal in the back tent. She will show you...
the Elephant!

Talk about naive?

[snowmman 3]

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I did the USAF Cool School at Eilson AFB in DEC of 1972.. and served as a SERE instructor for 8 years.. I had lots of fun going camping all over the world compliments of the USAF. I am sure you know the USAF training gave the students far less gear when they were doing survival training.... If I would have had my way I would have extended their training a bit by hucking them from planes as well.

Good school. Anthropologists & Stateside physicians helped set up those survival courses back in the 60s. Still have some old memrographed spiral bound training manuals from those courses. ....
dont eat polar bear liver. Hyper vitaminosis.
Vitamin A.

Good example of dumbass military training. Spend time talking about eating polar bear livers. Like that's something you need to worry about.

Meanwhile, the dumbass soldiers go to take a piss outside with just their inner boots on and slide down the mountain with their pants around their knees.

[snowmman 3]

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Talk about naive?

I'll admit I'm gambling. I've been around enough to place my bets. I'm comfortable with them.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman. Rabbit liver is worse. Alot of people make that mistake. Most people are eaten by polar bears and never have the chance to get close to there liver.Of course you knew that you also knew that in a artic enviroment where polar bears roam. That they start hunting you if your in there area for over 24hrs. They think your there next meal. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

Hey you guys have your sport, .. fine.

but stuff like this
"CHRIST, One thing that this thread makes me want to do is put a rig on a bunch of candy asses... and huck em from a plane."

I mean how are people supposed to react?

My reaction is: "Okay, you created a situation where you're totally dependent on a piece of man-made gear. Sure it's thrilling..and if some things fuck up, you've got some recovery procedures, that are not bulletproof...So you've built all this macho posturing into it, for some reason I don't understand....If it was just fun, you'd just say it was fun. Why all the macho bullshit?""

I could point a gun at you and pull the trigger and you could jump around and duck and weave..if you just wanted macho?

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman. Rabbit liver is worse. Alot of people make that mistake. Most people are eaten by polar bears and never have the chance to get close to there liver.Of course you knew that you also knew that in a artic enviroment where polar bears roam. That they start hunting you if your in there area for over 24hrs. They think your there next meal. Jerry

So you've got a story where polar or brown bear chased you? Let's hear it?

Or are you just spouting?

[Amazon 7]

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I did the USAF Cool School at Eilson AFB in DEC of 1972.. and served as a SERE instructor for 8 years.. I had lots of fun going camping all over the world compliments of the USAF. I am sure you know the USAF training gave the students far less gear when they were doing survival training.... If I would have had my way I would have extended their training a bit by hucking them from planes as well.

Good school. Anthropologists & Stateside physicians helped set up those survival courses back in the 60s. Still have some old memrographed spiral bound training manuals from those courses. ....
dont eat polar bear liver. Hyper vitaminosis.
Vitamin A.


I have a far better reason to stay away from those livers.. if you are in Mr Polar Bears territory.... YOU are part of HIS food chain. And most aircrew dont fly with anything that will do anything more than piss off Mr. Bear... let alone the M6 survival rifles that were in some kits with the 22/.410.

Only a macho idiot would think they could down a bear that size with that weapon... I am a damn good hunter and I sure as hell would not try it...unless as a last resort.

[snowmman 3]

Ah! a hunter at least has a purpose with a gun.
I will say that I've met a small number of hunters (at least when I was younger). They all have much saner relationships with their weapons.

[georger 244]

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Snowmman. No problem on the leading you into the woods. What will take place is I'll chopper you in then drop you off. Sure snow will make a difference.

Okay, you're on. Set a date. Reserve the chopper (you're paying, remember) (I have no idea what helis will fly in winter and what won't? I'm assuming we're talking low elevations?)
Dougan Falls is only 700 ft elevation.

Are we mimicing some Cooper theory, or just trying to see if you can off me?

You won't, because you're full of shit.

You rent a chopper, I'll be there.

(edit) To be fair, the main negative for me is not being in tip-top shape. Although I'm in fair shape so it's not like I'm going to drop dead. Ideally you give me 12 weeks lead time. But if we gotta go now. Okay. I'll cover my airfare to whatever airport you pick. You cover your travel to pick me up. Or I meet you at the helicopter. You pay in advance. I call and check with the pilot to make sure you're on the level.
377 can come if he wants to watch.


(edit) Lake Merwin altitude is only 144 feet.
Do I get any idea where we're going? Where do we meet? What am I allowed to wear/bring? Can I hide stuff on my body? I'm assuming that the "end" is when I post to the forum?
I believe that any superficial injuries I receive don't count as failure? (is death the only failure or ???)

How many empty bottles or cans are in front of you right now?

I want you to clear up any liability issues with Jerry before Jerry's friend will drop your dumb ass -
anywhere!

You must also carry a cell phone or satellite phone.
Jerry says no, but I say YES.

I think you are both NUTS!

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[georger 244]

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Snowmman said:

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Here's the problem I have with listening to Jerry. Jerry: what kind of model do you have that predicts survival for the jumps of Heady, Hahneman, McNally, and McCoy, but guarantees death for Cooper?

There may be one, but it seems to require a lot of fine-tuning..i.e. more so than the precision of the variables we know.

It’s because Jerry WAS Hahneman (see photo).

Cool. I like that...

[Amazon 7]

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Hey you guys have your sport, .. fine.

but stuff like this
"CHRIST, One thing that this thread makes me want to do is put a rig on a bunch of candy asses... and huck em from a plane."

I mean how are people supposed to react?

My reaction is: "Okay, you created a situation where you're totally dependent on a piece of man-made gear. Sure it's thrilling..and if some things fuck up, you've got some recovery procedures, that are not bulletproof...So you've built all this macho posturing into it, for some reason I don't understand....If it was just fun, you'd just say it was fun. Why all the macho bullshit?""

I could point a gun at you and pull the trigger and you could jump around and duck and weave..if you just wanted macho?

Right back at cha..since you wrote this

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I've discovered evidence that this forum is inhabited by

"trolls, lurkers, smart-asses, butt-heads, intellectuals, comedians, pontificators, pretenders, and dumb-heads. "

Since "jumpers" wasn't included in the above treatise, I'm assuming they're spread out (hiding?) in the various groups above.

Gee that is just my way of showing the LOVE.... the way I react to a bunch of candy assed posts by wuffos that dont know WTF they are talking about on MORE than one subject that some of us DO know about.

Want to borrow a period rig with the same kind of parachute??? I have a few.. all servicable... and the DZ at Toledo is not that far away I BET I could get the DZO to give us a lift to 10 K... hell I think I could even get him to let me throw some training in. I have jumped there a bit and know him pretty well... right there in the area the plane flew over on Nov 24th of 1971.

Its not about being macho.. its about not knowing WTF you are talking about when it comes to jumping from an airplane.. and that goes to all the other wuffo's and legs in this thread.

[georger 244]

Good example of dumbass military training. Spend time talking about eating polar bear livers. Like that's something you need to worry about.

Meanwhile, the dumbass soldiers go to take a piss outside with just their inner boots on and slide down the mountain with their pants around their knees.

[georger 244]

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Snowmman. Rabbit liver is worse. Alot of people make that mistake. Most people are eaten by polar bears and never have the chance to get close to there liver.Of course you knew that you also knew that in a artic enviroment where polar bears roam. That they start hunting you if your in there area for over 24hrs. They think your there next meal. Jerry

There were no polar bears in Vietnam. I always
thought that was kind of funny. Rabbit liver? Will
have to check that out but the problem with rabbits
as far as I know is not vitamin over abundance but
things like trichinosis which can settle in the liver.
Most wild bunnies caught in a cold environment
dont have trich ... since most service is not in the Arctic I always thought the program at Eielson was
kind of a sight seeing tour to say you had been to
Alaska, until I found out half the best pilot in Nam had been to Eielson then everyone wanted to go there .... like Vikings headed for Florida via Greenland.

That was the 60s. Today kids seek out these military school because in fact they are VF schools!
There's the difference today and somebody had to set the foundations for all of this - otherise its the school of hard knocks and lots of folks dont survive that.

[georger 244]

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I did the USAF Cool School at Eilson AFB in DEC of 1972.. and served as a SERE instructor for 8 years.. I had lots of fun going camping all over the world compliments of the USAF. I am sure you know the USAF training gave the students far less gear when they were doing survival training.... If I would have had my way I would have extended their training a bit by hucking them from planes as well.

Good school. Anthropologists & Stateside physicians helped set up those survival courses back in the 60s. Still have some old memrographed spiral bound training manuals from those courses. ....
dont eat polar bear liver. Hyper vitaminosis.
Vitamin A.

I have a far better reason to stay away from those livers.. if you are in Mr Polar Bears territory.... YOU are part of HIS food chain. And most aircrew dont fly with anything that will do anything more than piss off Mr. Bear... let alone the M6 survival rifles that were in some kits with the 22/.410.

Only a macho idiot would think they could down a bear that size with that weapon... I am a damn good hunter and I sure as hell would not try it...unless as a last resort.

Exactly. Im changing my mind. I think Snow should
drop in without shoes, or even with some loafers on,
simply for the education. Education he will get.
Just straighten the liability issues out first.

Even if Snow drops in and gets out without major
injuries, it still doesnt mean Cooper did or did not get away ... because we simply dont know if any
of this applies.

I just want liability issues addressed for everyone's
protection.... because at length I think Snow just
might do this, unless his 15th cousin is coming for
Xmas and he cant miss that!

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman said:

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My experience has been that people who really know, never lecture.

You mean; “Those who are talking don’t know, those who know aren’t talking?” I’ve heard that somewhere.

I will volunteer to set the rules if you would like (since I don’t have a dog in the fight).

I’m loving this… it’s human drama… it’s fascinating, it’s a power struggle where there is no power to be had.

Keep it up!

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[377 22]

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I just want liability issues addressed...

Why eliminate any risks? Take em all on, legal too.

Seriously, Snows emails provide a perfect assumption of risk defense should he or his estate ever think of suing.

Just redline a typical twenty page DZ liability waiver. Those frigging over lawyered documents have you consenting to everything short of murder.

Snow please read some Ghandi or go out to that mystery shrine in your woods and rethink all of your proposed violence against Jerry. Why would you want to "kick his ass?" He has been friendly to you.

Guns, to me, are interesting machines. I like them, own some but don't keep them in my house or car nor do I center my self image around them. There is a local cop-skydiver who is my antithesis. His business card has a photo of him in freefall in full SWAT gear with an M16. Like yeah, riot in the downtown plaza, call in the cop HALO SWAT team for an urban combat jump.

I'll actually bet that Snow survives his "boys night out" with Jerry. I worry about frostbitten feet, but I think he'll make it. I've met Snow. He's the type we always looked for as crewmen on fishing boats. They do get in a few fights, but they just know how to handle things when it all goes to hell.

I also think you could "huck" Snow from a plane with an NB6 and although he'd tumble, he'd pull and deploy OK. He has done a lot of very difficult ice climbing and has handled plenty of scary challenging situations. It isn't BS, I've seen the pix and publications.

I wonder if this Jerry-Snow challenge will really happen? Someone get Bruce. He can turn this into a press event better than anyone could and maybe even make a buck off the story. It really has reader appeal. Army survival instructor takes on Silicon Valley chip designer in the ultimate survival challenge.

377

One more thing. Please don't kill any rabbits unless you are starving. My daughter has a pet house rabbit. They are affectionate animals and really develop attachments to people. Her rabbit runs up to me when it sees me and nuzzles just like your dogs. She is 100 pct housebroken and always uses her litterbox.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 244]

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Snowmman. His chances of survival.My statement was why I thought he didn't survive the jump was he was not properly prepaired or trained to survive under the condition's in which he Jumped.His action's indicates this to me.Jerry

It hit me going to bed last night I had made an error - its Tularemia (not trichinosis) that affects soft tissue in rabbits most, not trichinosis; white/yellow
spots on the liver, lungs, spleen... sorry about that.
G.

[JerryThomas 0]

377 You and your daughter can rest easy. I won't kill any rabbits. Shelly has pet rabbits. I must admit the reason I got two rabbits was for meat. Then here comes shelly picking them up, hugging them.Then wouldn't you know it out poped 9 more. Hell you would have thought Shelly gave birth to them.To make a long story short I released 8 of them. Don't worry my Dog's protect them, and this area has seen an increase in it's rabit population.Kind of like when 3 wild turkey's were released here when I bought this place 3yrs ago, now there is over a hundred of them. Now we have more baby rabbits to release.Lot of turkeys, Deer, Elk,Sheep, Horses, Donkey, Trout,salmon in the pond and creek. Now Shelly want's a basset hound, a cow and a buffalo. She brought home 3 english mice last week. One of them had babies. And you guy's wonder why I run off to the ocean and washougal so often. Jerry

[377 22]

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Now Shelly want's a basset hound, a cow and a buffalo. She brought home 3 english mice last week.

Talk about statrting an ARK... is she getting two of each?

My girl and your wife would get along great Jerry. Over the years we had mice, rats, guinea pigs, a rescue dog, bunnies, etc etc. My daughter was always rescuing "injured" wild animals and tending them in her room: a gopher, several snakes, a baby squirrel, even a mole, etc. I am not sure they were all really injured, but they were all admitted to her "hospital" for a few days then released. I guess I am lucky she never got bitten or sick.

When she comes home for vacation from school she often calls the animal shelter to see if they have an overflow situation and need temporary foster homes for kittens. I am allergic to cats but when your baby girl looks at you with pleading eyes and says "Daddy, they might have to kill them if we dont take them for a while" you just resign yourself to sneezing for a few weeks.

Those wild turkeys are getting out of hand even in the CA suburbs that are on the edge of open spaces. I had one "attack" me last year. It was super agressive. If I turned, it would run away but it just kept coming back trying to nip at me. I got so mad I ran after it and wanted to wring its neck but it would fly short distances and get away, then turn around and attack again. Odd behavior for a wild turkey or are some just mean like that?

Are you really going to charter a helo? Why not just rent a Cessna and have Snow make a more realistic entry into the "death woods" by chute? You could S/L him in a round and you'd know he'd land somewhere under an open chute. I have a GPS tracking beacon we could put on him. It would not only give his position but also his heart rate and temperature. It runs in the 144 MHz ham band, but there are mountaintop repeaters in the area that would pick up his signal most of the time.

Be careful about saying that a retired Army combat vet who is jump and survival trained and lives in the NW is financially comfortable. People might jump to Cooper-conclusions.

Do you think YOU would have died if you made the Cooper jump or would your training and knowledge have alowed you to survive even in that inadequate clothing and shoes?

Snow sounds mean in his posts but he is really a warm, hospitable and generous guy if you meet him in person. You'll see.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

377 said:

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Snow sounds mean in his posts but he is really a warm, hospitable and generous guy if you meet him in person.

I know exactly what you mean.

I seem warm, hospitable, and generous in my post but I’m really mean, boastful, egocentric, bitter, vengeful, cynical, and consider everyone but me an idiot... if you meet me in person.

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[377 22]

I've never met Sluggo but I've spoken with him by phone. He's a great guy, very smart, and distinguishes himself from most of the rest of us, including me, by being a gentleman. I wish I were one but I just am too impulsive. I am the trout that snaps at the artificial fly. Sluggo is the one that lurks in the deep pool and chuckles as I am hooked.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Flattery will get you everywhere!

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Hey!


I’m not a credentialed academic like snowmman, georger, 377, et al. But I’ve been doing some statistical analysis on the posts (and posters) on this thread.

I noticed that Jerry hadn’t said anything ugly about Jo for quite awhile. Using very crude statistical methods, I located the centroid at Post #14463 (from Jo).

In the 16 posts that Jerry made prior to that he said ugly things about Jo in 10 of them (62.5%). In the 18 post after that he said bad things about Jo only 1 time (5.5%). That one post occurred just 6 posts from Jo’s (the centroid), so there could have been some overlap there. (i.e. He created the post before he read Jo’s.) The following 17 posts are Jo-bashing free.

So evidently, Jo said something in that post to make Jerry change his posting style. Anybody know what it was?

Now georger, this is what I mean when I say; “If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs you always know which one you hit.”

Any ideas?.... Anyone?.... Anyone?.... Bueller?

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