DB Cooper

[377 22]

Amazon,

Have you seen the Air America 727 S/L Thailand jump videos? I thought unsleeved rounds would give one hell of a KABOOM opening shock at those jet exit speeds (guessing 160?) but the video seems to show otherwise. The canopies "squid" for a while and don't open suddenly.

I am in a triple quandry because you and Snow say no huge deal on surviving a winter night jump into the Death Woods and making it out alive. Jerry says its highly unlikely to have that safe outcome. I don't think any of you three are full of shit so I am stuck.

I guess we just have to risk Snow's life to resolve this, but not before we put in a written in stone succession plan at Snowmman Industries HQ.

Jerry is saying even with a safe landing you are unlikley to survive the night. Maybe the helo insertion isnt such a bad idea, but landing a helo at night in rough terrain is very dangerous too.

All in all I think Snow needs to jump into the Death Woods. We need to x ray him or do a very sensitive mangetometer scan right before he boards the aircraft or ATV. I guarantee various orifices will be packed with mini GPS, amphetamines and other cheats.

He probably is already doing that old trick that rock stars do before they go into rehab to get out of a jail sentence. They have someone bury/hide drugs on the grounds before they become an in-patient. Snow probably already has snowshoes, GPS, heat packs, Goretex clothing and other items cached in all possible areas where Jerry may take him.

"Cheat to win." He really means it. Snow wasnt an Eagle Scout, he was a Crow Scout. He will pledge allegiance to any flag,

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

nice stories Sluggo.

Are you saying there's a winner and we owe you money or something?

I didn't think anyone was talking about brave except you.

We were talking about whether you die in the death woods.

That has nothing to do with bravery. That's just living or dying.

Hey! people live and die every day. How brave of them.

(edit) Sluggo: if you want to try to play some kind of ethical or moral card, you need to establish a context where people care about how they're perceived. How exactly do you think that applies here?

[snowmman 3]

377 observed "Snow probably already has snowshoes, GPS, heat packs, Goretex clothing and other items cached in all possible areas where Jerry may take him."

Just prepping the route. What's wrong with brushing some moss off the holds?

You know Amazon talked about training (military) and deaths. That's why I asked Jerry to talk about stuff that wasn't training. Because training has to be controlled/structured or it's stupid. It's like you don't learn anything if you die.

You're just dead.

How come people mix up training and "the real thing"..(I guess in the military, because you don't want a lot of the real thing..too much dying)

Is it because people don't do training in skydiving? If so, isn't that a problem?

I always wondered about this skydiving training thing. Seems like part of the problem is you force people to learn stuff where they are exposed to the same risks as they are after they learn.

How does that make sense? How do you graduate the risk taking? I guess everyone must be confident in some of the backup procedures. But then you guys say there's still all these ways things can screw up, even with your backup procedures.

Sure seems like just russian roulette to me.

[snowmman 3]

Sluggo reminded me "The really funny thing is that all four of these people never even once bragged about being brave and/or pointed to these incidents to show others how brave they were/are."


We really haven't demonstrated the fine art of bragging to it's perfect extent here. Let's hear some brags.

I thought 377's and Amazon's little chat about some jump details was a perfect example of a little in-sport brag...The key is being subtle...you can't just come out and say it..gotta be implied.

[snowmman 3]

Sluggo said "I hope you aren’t making fun of him because he’s an amputee. You did know he’s an amputee… didn’t you? Boy, that’s really crass! "

If Jerry is an amputee, what does that have to do with anything?
If Jerry thought it had anything to do with anything, wouldn't he have brought it up?

Why do you bring it up if Jerry didn't?

[377 22]

Quote

Sure seems like just russian roulette to me.

With one HUUUGE difference. A reset button. A rewind function. A, "hey I fucked up and wanna second chance" machine.

It's called a reserve canopy.

When you add an AAD it gets even better.

There is no plan B in Russian Roulette. If you pull the trigger on a chambered round, game over.

Perry Stevens, my instructor, said PLAN on your main not working. Be grateful and surprised when it opens normally. You should be starting your emergency procedures as you pull your main ripcord and then let them get interrupted if your main deploys successfully.

That really worked for me. When I had to do my first cutaway it just flowed. I was scared as hell but my body did all the right things fast with the Capewells and reserve.

Freefall training back in the day when I was taught, was literally having you jump solo and try to get stable on your own. No AFF. No tunnels. Just you and your gear and some pre jump pep talk about arching, relaxing and all this body aerodynamics stuff you tended to forget as you started to tumble wildly or started winding up RPMs in a flat spin.

It was more like self training.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Yeah, it definitely seems like people who had to learn like 10-20-30 years ago, had it a lot harder.

less knowledge, worse gear. No tunnels.

I can see why the old farts get crochety.
Kids get to say they're "skydiving" without having to go thru the same learning curve, and it can't help but take away from the feelings you had in the past.

I think that's why it's important to have it all be personal..the memories, the motivation and why you do it in the future.

It always changes, and there's always the next generation that makes anything you did look stupid. But that doesn't mean you didn't enjoy it while you did it.

[377 22]

I am 100% for tunnels, better gear, simulators etc. There is no real advantage to how I learned. It was inefficient and far less safe than tody's methods. The kids who have today's easier and safer learning path have accomplished far more than us old guys ever did because they arent so hampered by the gear.

It is fun to reminisce about back in the day with the surplus "gutter" gear and the increased self reliance in freefall training, but AFF is waay better and squares are waay better so I dont glorify the old ways.

If it werent for the better gear I couldnt still be active in the sport with any degree of safety. Most of the injuries happen upon ground contact. With squares flown conservatively this ground contact can be soft and slow almost all the time.

I bet it is a similar deal in climbing when you look at old vs new in training and gear. True?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I don't read the other threads here, but have scanned them.

Even though I would assume a lot of of what's written is bullshit like most forums (people just writing off the top of their heads...context being loose..people just having fun... the macho element etc.) there are things that stick out as grains of truth.

That all makes sense. If you can't pick out the grains of truth I would think you shouldn't be jumping anyhow.

Getting to see how other people think about the nuts and bolts of things, what to watch out for, etc etc.

Seems like a positive thing.

Even the negative elements...it gives you the heads up that different folks take their skydiving doses in different ways, and you should always be thinking for yourself, rather than getting dragged into someone else's view of the thing.

Seems like a good thing, beyond the social aspects.

[snowmman 3]

I'll start another flamefest here while I'm thinking about it.

Someone posted (I really just forget who) here the phrase about "skydiving's history being written in the blood of pioneers".

And regardless of whether it's true or not, I thought it was the most bullshit thing I've read in a long time.

I mean, sure people die.. But I would think you honor their memory, examine what went wrong, and figure out how to try to make that not happen again.

On the other hand, if people just take risks which are predictable and die...I'd think you want to just say "Man, he just put it out there. You gotta respect that, but he was playing it too close"

I guess that's part of what makes me think there's too much chest thumping here. The way you guys talk about injuries and deaths. Now I'm just reading a couple of threads..so obviously I don't have a clue here....But that phrase really struck me as something you'd want to stamp out of your brain.

I would think at any point in time, people operate within the bounds of acceptable risk. So there's no such thing as writing the history in blood. There's just ongoing injury/death at a constant level in any risk sport.

(edit) Sluggo got me thinking of this with his comments about "bravery". I'd rather hang with someone who knew what the fuck he was doing, then someone who was "brave".
Bravery's for other stuff. Not the main part of a sport?

(edit) tying this all back to the Death Woods Jump...in my mind, when it occurs, it will be zero risk. Now it's fair to ask whether I am misinformed or not. Obviously I will manipulate the situation so that there is "apparent risk"..i.e. others will think there is risk based on their perceptions, but I won't. That's really all that goes on in all risk sports. No one just puts their hand in the tiger's mouth knowing it will get bit off.

[Amazon 7]

Think of Huck as chucking em from the plane.... most people go willingly.. others... well need to be hucked.

The term LEG is a military thing... If you attend and graduate from Jump School at Ft Benning you recieve a set of jump wings... and are no longer a LEG. ( ground pounder) you get to ride in planes and jump from them...

Hes an amputee?.. interesting..no wonder there is fear of the DEATH WOODS.. it would make it marginally harder if you had to deal with that or a broken leg to get out.

I jump with a guy at the dropzone who is a double amputee and another who only lost one leg in Iraq.

I know its not a limiting factor in skydiving.

[snowmman 3]

It is really a bummer seeing the young guys coming home with missing parts.

Hey anyone who's part of giving personal or other support to those guys...that's a pretty cool thing.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

It is really a bummer seeing the young guys coming home with missing parts.

Hey anyone who's part of giving personal or other support to those guys...that's a pretty cool thing.

BLess those who help those who have put it on the line for the rest of us, Especially... for those who give a bit more of themselves or give it all.

Our DZ's are not that far from Ft Lewis.. it seems that there are nearly weekly losses to the units from there. Usually the guys who skydive at the dz are in units that are airborne qualified...so the losses are all to common for our friends.

[377 22]

Amazon,

Take a look at Gosset' appearance and background. He had Ft Lewis connections in 71 according to Galen Cook and was jump qualified.

For a while people were theorizing that Cooper was a soldier and intended to jump into Ft Lewis and then blend in.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Edit 1 -Glad I have time to Edit this thing - I read what I wrote and it had many errors.
Edit 2 -Back to do some more editing and I am so tired - knew I needed to get this fixed. It is better I just tell it from memory rather than try to follow the darn map.

I have everyone on MENTAL Ignore because I have something to say and I hope it is something that you guys can digest - it should go down like pudding and stick to you gut.

I have been accused of using maps to create a story. Well, here is one that does use maps, because I had to find a good WA map that I could read so here goes.

The FBI told me only after I confronted them in 2000 that Duane had been in McNeil.
All we had with us was an altas and one map that showed 1/2 of the United States - not a quarter but 1/2.

How did Duane Weber having only the casual relationship with WA claimed by the FBI manage to navigate and tell me the things he did? I am recreating our trip at the point he told me about Pendleton
.
1. Pendleton - he was familiar with the base and made a remark about the base.

2. As we approached the Columbia he mentions things on both sides of the river. The
Nuclear plant, which I now know to be Hanford and Reservation - which I now know to be a US Military Reservation just outside of Yakima which he mentioned by name..even though there is an Indian Reservation there - he does NOT mention this at the time.

3. As we approach The Dalles he mentions a couple of places in Oregon along that way - one of those is Heppner, but do not recall the other one.

4. Closer into The Dalles he talks about the river and a place in WA called Goldendale, It was obviously he had spent some time in Goldendale.

5. We spent the night just outside of The Dalles and he tell me I can sleep in the next morning, because he had something to take care of. I did not even ask what. He did mention Durfu just on down the way from The Dalles that eveing when we had something to eat.

6. I am studying the map to see where or why he left for approx 5 hours the next day and returned shortly after check-out time. I remember this because I had called the desk as I was worried.
(Can't figure out where he went other than maybe Mt. Hood) or a Government Camp.

7. We cross the river (this I am confused on) - this map show a crossing at White Salmon and one at Bonnevile Dam (we crossed at the one which had all the boats on the East side so I assume from what I know about Dams we crossed at the Bonneville.

8. This crossing is when he mentions on the WA side a ridge west of us and pointing East on Hwy 14 he mentions Indian burial grounds or mounds or and/or a reservation - all I see on the map is a reservation.

9. As we approach Washougal the thinks he has missed his turn, but the Hwy splits at this point, he mentions they had four laned the approach and it was NOT four laned the last time he was there - I now assume in 1971.

10. We go to Washougal, but go to a cementary before we cross what I now KNOW to be the WASHOUGAL ( even though Jerry would have me be believe differently). I really believe he though we turn a Cames and I kept trying to tell him NO.

11. We make some turns after this crossing which took us thru pasture lands and and cattle till we reached what I now know to be the road to Lake LaCames.

12. The story about our little outing at Lake LaCames is well told in prior postings. When we pull out of the area because just moments prior he made his little remark "This is where Cooper walked out of the Woods" . I then took a mental note of the first Street sign I saw...the rest of this story is also documented in prior posts.

13. This would entail doubling back to Washougal for yet "one more side trip" North on the Washoughal and we turned around up in the curve which I have claimes had either 3 cottages and double wides on it (but no one seems to understand where). After we turned around we went West on what I now know to be Coffey road. He points out yet another cementary on our left. He tells me about Camp Bonneville - on our way to the old 500. A story about 2 men who escape from there over a fence, Little Baldy and a pit among several other things. On up the road he mentions Green Mountain, another tower and an airport then we go North toward Battleground, but turn West before that...which took us to a tower that was no longer there in the woods.

Now we go back to the road and a little further North before turning W toward what I now know to the Hat. He pointed this out to me only after we passed it. From this point we head South to the road that would take us to I-5, but not without pointing out another Tower and a airport and another cementary.

Note: I lost count of the towers already. 4 airpstrips and 4 cementaries. I forgot to count the tower that was not there in the woods.

After reaching the highway that would take us to I-5 we head West and he points down going North where Dollars Corner is and comments he used to know a man there and about a store across the street. He has told me about the Pipeline and Power lines there as he did in the Lake LaCames area.

14. As we go up I-5 he mentions a tributary that goes under the highway and points to the left (W) mentions something in that area (I forget but it used to be a camp and now it is something else) - then he get my attention to the East - talks about the Power lines and Pipe line running paraell thru there.

15. Just before the Lewis River he mentions off to our right (East) is a cementary and old mill. Almost immediately he points to theWest about a little town called St Helens and that he used to know a woman who had a store there. Then we are at the Lewis River.

I remember being awake at Longview and Castle Rock. He said something about Castle Rock, but I don't remember what because I was tired (yet, he was driving). My memory has dulled due to all of these yrs - I know that my mind wants to say he told me something about these places - but I would need a MUCH larger map to trigger more detailed information. ( I have to use a magnifying glass for this map and a flashlight - plus I have a large overhead lamp on and a goose neck lamp. Getting very hard to see maps.

16. As we approach the area he mentions where McChord is and Steillacoom telling me about a prison there with basically wall of water. He did not call it McNeil. As we are going thru Tacoma he points East and mentions his brother and partner having owned a complex there ,but it turned out not to be a good investment (he stated bought at wrong time).

OK my eyes are killing me and I am very tired. He took me on another trip in Seattle and told me about the things above this all the way to Vancouver, Alaska.

If you will remind me and if you are interested I will tell you the rest of this as I recounted it to Himmelsbach yrs ago...the FBI was never interest.


Have to rest right now. I don't believe I have told how much the told me beyond the Airport before, because I didn't think it was necessary. Before I go for now, please digest what I have told you and I ask ONE question.
Do the places and the things he showed me sound like some one with a casual aquaintance with the state of WA. while a resident at McNeil?

I have finished the edit, but the rest of the story will have to wait for another day - I have pushed myself to the limit recently.

Good Night - must be getting old - I just know I feel very very very tired - never felt this tired in my whole life. I don't think I am sick - just feel exhausted.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Amazon,

I was just having"a go" at you. Notice the smiley a few lines down.

No... Jerry is not an amputee (that I know of).

When I was trying to figure out what you meant by "LEG," I thought about the many ways one can screw-up when posting to people they have never met.

Just part of my sick sense of humor.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[happythoughts 0]

Hasn't survivability been beat to death before?

Shoes - I have jumped from a 727 at the same speed.
I know what the exit does to you. I double knot my
sneaker laces. I really doubt that loafers would stay on (my theory).

Estimated time in the woods - 8pm-4am 8 hours.

Raining. Low temperature.

8 hours, in the dark, wet, raining, cold, no shoes.

Survivable ? I do not know, but I wouldn't bet that way.

As far as the skydiving part goes - most experienced
skydivers would not jump into an unlit landing area at night. Considering the possible terrain/trees, it magnifies that problem.

Quite often, there is some 18yo telling his friends
how "skydiving is no big deal". Later we get to watch
him puke his bravado in the landing area.
You get used to hearing people trying to convince others.

[snowmman 3]

Hey wait a second.
No one told me that 18 year olds puke with this thing.

That's it, I'm backing out.
(I look to 18 year olds for guidance)

Whew! close call.

(edit) I'll amplify although it's obvious to anyone.
Young kids think all they need is bravado, and don't feel the pressure or need to learn everything..or, say, even more than they need.
Old farts cover their asses by learning everything, so hopefully its really boring, no matter what happens.

Boring is good.

Now if you're saying, learning doesn't matter, and there's a sensory effect that makes you puke regardless of mental prep, well okay. I guess that's possible.

Must be a lot of pukin at the DZ?

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Hey wait a second.
No one told me that 18 year olds puke with this thing.

That's it, I'm backing out.
(I look to 18 year olds for guidance)

Whew! close call.

They are among their friends. They don't get something
to eat. They wait 2 hours for their load.
In the meantime, they drink 2 Red Bulls to get them
amped up enough to believe their own BS.

They hyper-ventilate on the plane and their nerves
go off the chart. Their first peep out the door
pumps all the oxygen into their system.

When they land, they puke.

Even a tandem is easy compared to a solo jump.

So, it's easy to sit behind a keyboard and theorize.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

Hey wait a second.
No one told me that 18 year olds puke with this thing.

That's it, I'm backing out.
(I look to 18 year olds for guidance)

Whew! close call.

They are among their friends. They don't get something
to eat. They wait 2 hours for their load.
In the meantime, they drink 2 Red Bulls to get them
amped up enough to believe their own BS.

They hyper-ventilate on the plane and their nerves
go off the chart. Their first peep out the door
pumps all the oxygen into their system.

When they land, they puke.

Even a tandem is easy compared to a solo jump.

So, it's easy to sit behind a keyboard and theorize.

It's easy to type on a keyboard and not worry how I get to read it :) How the fuck does that work? Any pukin involved?

[Amazon 7]

Its really worse when they puke in freefall.... no way I want a tandem instructor job.

I am a sympathetic hurler.. I do not get airsick...seasick...or any other motion sickness... but if someone hurls.. and I smell it.. I am spewing in an instant.

One of the guys who I worked with.. and was going off on how "radical: snowboarding was.... and riding his rice rocket....etc... Well I talked him into coming to jump in March 2003...( it was a tandem jump since we could not get him to do AFF). ...he did great the screams as he left the plane were fleeting as they fell away.. he got to the ground with the tandem guy..they landed on the side of the pea gravel pit... the TI unhooks him and he is sitting there on the ground.. Mr radical slumps over to the side and loses the breakfast burrito big time.


AS far as the survivability... THOUSANDS of guys have ejected or bailed out. or jumped....with those horrible round parachutes.... at night.. in all kinds of weather... landed in trees.... and returned with honor to tell the story to their kids and grandkids.

Not all have survived..or been uninjured... but if you have the WILL and a reason to survive... you stand a lot better chance.

[snowmman 3]

well that settles it.
I know statistics, and it sounds to me skydiving is about puking.
377's a liar and was trying to sandbag me.
Hell, now I realize how Jerry was going to kill me: drowning in my own puke?

Maybe cooper drowned in his own puke? It's possible?

[georger 244]

Quote

Georger, you said
"McCoy on the other hand knew exactly where he was. "

review the other jumpers and decide if they knew where they were any more than Cooper.

some did, some didnt, most didnt, many never got the chance to find out ... McCoy did (thats one reason he can serve as a model).

Do we include ressurections? Duane never got off
the autopsy table. Jo cant clame Duane was the Mesaiah, or can she?.

[georger 244]

Quote

I’ve been watching this display of testosterone that I previously labeled “The Power Struggle (With No Power to Be Had)” and it has really started me to thinking.

I was amused at first, choosing up sides, and thinking about how brave the three involved individuals must be. And then... I started getting depressed! I began to realize that I’m not brave! I’m just a big sissy… a pussy… a woosie… a panty waist. Hell, I don’t even know anyone who is brave like those three guys.

I knew some people who I thought were brave (until now).

I knew a guy who made the first entry into the auxiliary building at the crippled Three Mile Island reactor in 1979, at a time that all the experts said there was a giant hydrogen bubble in the core and it was about to do what Chernobyl did 7 years later. I thought he was brave… but not now.

I knew an FBI Agent who rammed a car driven by a bank robber that was being chased by the police, in order to save the life of a motorcycle patrolman. He then took up a defensive position armed with only his service revolver and held that position until relieved by the SWAT team. I thought he was brave… but not now.

I knew of a preacher who demonstrated for racial equality in Birmingham and Selma while Bull Connor turned police dogs loose on him and State Troopers beat him with Billy-clubs. I thought he was brave… but not anymore.

And, I saw a young student on a very liberal campus (the one 377 went to), stand in the quad with a Bible in his hands and preach about his imaginary friend who was offering peace and solace for everyone. While the liberal students stood around and jeered at him. Even though I’m an atheist, I thought; “That’s a brave young man.” I thought he was brave… but not now.

The really funny thing is that all four of these people never even once bragged about being brave and/or pointed to these incidents to show others how brave they were/are.

So, after reading and thinking, I’ve come to the conclusion that bravery is only demonstrated by doing activities that occur outside and create adrenal hormones just for the sake of the hormones. Not altruistic activities, but hedonistic activities.

I’m not slamming rock/ice climbing or skydiving just for the thrill of it… as long as it hurts no one, go for it! I just didn’t realize, until this discussion that it is the only way to measure bravery. And it creates a need to point it out so others will know how brave you are.

So, as I said, now I’m depressed. I’m a woosie, because I don’t skydive or rock-climb. (And, I have to admit the prospect of either scares the shit out of me). I will probably never amount to anything. I guess I’ll just end it all.

I'm gonna off myself...Goodbye cruel world!

But wait!!!!

I just read an article called “Risk of Skydiving Accidents” from How Stuff Works. It says:

Skydiving is a remarkably popular sport. The United States Parachuting Association has 34,000 members. It estimates that about 350,000 people complete more than 3 million jumps in a typical year.
The big question is always, "How dangerous is skydiving?" Each year, about 30 people die in parachuting accidents in the United States, or roughly one person per 100,000 jumps. Look at the US Skydiving Incident Reports to get an idea of the types of problems that lead to fatalities. If you make one jump in a year, your chance of dying is 1 in 100,000.

How does the fatality rate in skydiving compare to other common activities? Since most adults in America drive cars, let's compare skydiving to driving. Roughly 40,000 people die each year in traffic accidents in the United States. That's 1.7 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles. Therefore, if you drive 10,000 miles per year, your chance of dying in a car wreck in any given year is something like 1 in 6,000. In other words, we accept a higher level of risk by getting into our cars every day than people do by occasionally skydiving. You would have to jump 17 times per year for your risk of dying in a skydiving accident to equal your risk of dying in a car accident if you drive 10,000 miles per year.

A logical question to ask here is this: Given these statistics, why do we think of skydiving as dangerous and driving a car as safe?

The first reason has to do with frequency. At 30 per year, fatal skydiving accidents are infrequent. That tends to make each one newsworthy, so you are likely to hear about them. On the other hand, there are about 110 fatal car accidents every day in the United States. In a city of one million people, 160 people die every year in car accidents. If you heard about every car accident, you would go insane, so you only hear about a few of them. That leaves you with the impression that car accidents are infrequent even though they happen constantly.

The second reason has to do with familiarity. Most people drive every day and nothing bad happens. So our personal experience leads us to believe that driving is safe. It is only when you look at the aggregated statistics that you realize how dangerous driving really is.

So, now I feel better about myself... I AM brave after all! I’m more brave than a skydiver ‘cause I drive 20,000 – 25,000 miles a year. I can just feel the adrenal hormones surging through my body.

BTW: Amazon, you keep using two terms that I (the lowly whuffo) don’t understand. Huck and LEG.

Hucking sounds it might have a sexual connotation and you use LEG when referencing Jerry a lot.

I hope you aren’t making fun of him because he’s an amputee. You did know he’s an amputee… didn’t you? Boy, that’s really crass!

Good stuff. Anyone who goes to see Jo Weber deserves a medal, no questions asked.
So you make the list.

In the middle of the StLouis riots in '69 an old black
man (retired brick layer) filled two 5 gal buckets with water and backed his truck out and went to a large building being torn apart, made his way in through the mob, and started laying brick back up ... the shocked crowd backed off and left ... his name was
'something' Townsend.

[JerryThomas 0]

WoW! Sorry I have been gone Shopping. Where I live I have to travel 140 miles. to find good deal's. So many post to respond to. So Knowing that my Home phone# is easy to find> I have decided to post it and answer all question's. By Phone. Then all of you can post the result's of our conversation on your own. Amazon Please call at any given time. I'm sure you will find all answer's to your sastifaction. Snowmman you already have the number but for some reason decide to hide behind the forum and make unfounded coments instead of discussing this with me. My Number Is 541- 755-6066. Now if you do not have international calling and you wish to discuss any subject with me. PM your Number to me I will call you Rest asured your number will never be given to any one else . Geoger Or Jo will verify that. So Instead Of Trying to be the head expert on this case by your posting or trying to degrade or dispute my Knowledge. Or chaledge the info I have posted and making a fool out of your selve's please call me . And one last Note Check All my Past post from Day One. I do believe all your questions Can be answered If not I will be more than Happy to answer each an every one of them with solid Proof Your call All. Jerry