georger 247
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Georger - I have maintained the money was stored or buried else where until 1979. Yet, everyone insists on putting that money in the water yrs before. Again this is something I have maintained since I contacted the FBI in 1996.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Orange1 0
QuoteCooper might have actually exited much later. If he leaped from high up on the stairs his moment arm wouldn't have been very high and the stair rebound as he departed might have been slight.
But surely anything he would have chucked would have been from the top of the stairs too? It just seems to me there would have been a second, at least as big, pressure bump if he first threw something and then exited.
Are you trying to say he knew about the pressure wave and deliberately tried to mislead the crew re the jump time?
It is an intriguing theory though, because if Cooper jumped much later... he could have landed anywhere. Utah, Nevada..?
A second question ... if there was a throwout first... maybe the briefcase, along with ...um... some bundles of money? Maybe the briefcase was never found because it landed in the water? Did anyone say what the briefcase was made of - in those days I am thinking, most likely leather? How long would a leather briefcase take to degrade in water?
And what was in the little bag he carried on? I still like the idea it had ... goggles, alti, a torch (sorry flashlight)... oh let the speculation continue: a map of the area and a compass? ...
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
377 22
Orange wrote:
Not necessarily. In my DC 9 jump the pressure bumps appeared to correlate with something passing through the fuselage opening fast. I think if you tossed the bag from inside the 727, you'd get a pronounced bump. If Cooper then transitioned through the opening slowly on the stairs and then jumped before descending very far down the stairs, the bump may have been very minor and gone unnoticed.
The FBI sled test might have been misleading in the assumption that Cooper exited from the bottom of the stairs which causes maximum stair deflection then rebound and a big bump.
Lets say Cooper had trouble securing all the money. Why not take a small portion and toss it along with the bomb bag or even separately, then jump later?
377
QuoteBut surely anything he would have chucked would have been from the top of the stairs too? It just seems to me there would have been a second, at least as big, pressure bump if he first threw something and then exited.
Not necessarily. In my DC 9 jump the pressure bumps appeared to correlate with something passing through the fuselage opening fast. I think if you tossed the bag from inside the 727, you'd get a pronounced bump. If Cooper then transitioned through the opening slowly on the stairs and then jumped before descending very far down the stairs, the bump may have been very minor and gone unnoticed.
The FBI sled test might have been misleading in the assumption that Cooper exited from the bottom of the stairs which causes maximum stair deflection then rebound and a big bump.
Lets say Cooper had trouble securing all the money. Why not take a small portion and toss it along with the bomb bag or even separately, then jump later?
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
QuoteLets say Cooper had trouble securing all the money. Why not take a small portion and toss it along with the bomb bag or even separately, then jump later?
Anyone who has done 4-way will tell you that
bad exits will cause the outside-center to get
twisted around. Shoulders, elbows, and wrists
get a lot of torque.
A briefcase would most likely injure your wrist on exit
or be extremely difficult to hold on to.
I believe he was observed to be tieing the reserve
bag onto his body. The money would go in it
(otherwise what would be the point).
Where did the briefcase go?
He could not attach all the money, so he offered some to the flight attendant. She refused, so he put
it in the briefcase and tossed it. It landed in/near a body of water. If it stayed nearly intact, it could
be transported from dry land during a spring flood of a following year.
He waited and jumped with his money sometime after that point.
Duane was DBC. He also recorded the guitar tracks
for Layla with Eric Clapton.
Orange1 0
QuoteQuoteLets say Cooper had trouble securing all the money. Why not take a small portion and toss it along with the bomb bag or even separately, then jump later?
Anyone who has done 4-way will tell you that
bad exits will cause the outside-center to get
twisted around. Shoulders, elbows, and wrists
get a lot of torque.
A briefcase would most likely injure your wrist on exit
or be extremely difficult to hold on to.
I believe he was observed to be tieing the reserve
bag onto his body. The money would go in it
(otherwise what would be the point).
Where did the briefcase go?
He could not attach all the money, so he offered some to the flight attendant. She refused, so he put
it in the briefcase and tossed it. It landed in/near a body of water. If it stayed nearly intact, it could
be transported from dry land during a spring flood of a following year.
He waited and jumped with his money sometime after that point.
All sounds logical to me... and 377 also makes a good point when he says
QuoteThe FBI sled test might have been misleading in the assumption that Cooper exited from the bottom of the stairs which causes maximum stair deflection then rebound and a big bump.
What colour was the briefcase? Brown? easy to miss during a search in that kind of terrain, especially if you are looking for a parachute or a body.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Quote
What colour was the briefcase? Brown? easy to miss during a search in that kind of terrain, especially if you are looking for a parachute or a body.
First - searches
Ever tried to find a lost main? Or worse, freebag?
They aren't necessarily in easily-concealed colors
and you are looking in a limited, known, target area.
I have seen brightly color mains lost in a corn field
and never found. Also, bright yellow 3-man life rafts.
Second - terrain
If it landed anywhere but an open field, forget it.
Tall trees, low shrubs, water... Gone.
Third, and most important - search area.
No one can really define the correct exit point.
Theorize, yes. Absolutely know, no.
Can anyone really state a two-square mile area? No. A square mile is not a little area.
180mph is 3 miles a minute. Exit point defined to
a 10 minute interval? 30 miles. Add wind drift.
DBC could have easily landed outside of the search
area and been hanging in a tree for 10 years.
Except, of course, that Duane is Cooper.
377 22
QuoteI have seen brightly color mains lost in a corn field
and never found. Also, bright yellow 3-man life rafts.
Been there, done that. WFFC 2005. I cut away right over the DZ runway with hundreds watching. My main was found quickly but the reserve freebag went into the soybeans adjacent to the runway and despite HOURS and HOURS of careful searching by yours truly, including a flyover, it was never found.
It was nuts to spend so much time looking, but I was obessesed. I mean we KNEW where it landed. Sooo frustrating.
I hope the pilot chute spring didnt break anything on the harvesting machinery.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 247
QuoteQuoteLets say Cooper had trouble securing all the money. Why not take a small portion and toss it along with the bomb bag or even separately, then jump later?
Anyone who has done 4-way will tell you that
bad exits will cause the outside-center to get
twisted around. Shoulders, elbows, and wrists
get a lot of torque.
A briefcase would most likely injure your wrist on exit
or be extremely difficult to hold on to.
I believe he was observed to be tieing the reserve
bag onto his body. The money would go in it
(otherwise what would be the point).
Where did the briefcase go?
He could not attach all the money, so he offered some to the flight attendant. She refused, so he put
it in the briefcase and tossed it. It landed in/near a body of water. If it stayed nearly intact, it could
be transported from dry land during a spring flood of a following year.
He waited and jumped with his money sometime after that point.
Let me pose some questions:
_ How big was the money bag? Large enough to hold
all the money just as delieverd to the plane. Any
room left over, to store what? Not large enough
to house the money and the brief case? Or parts
from the briefcase?
_ What would account for chemistry consistent
with an explosive materials being found on the tie and on some of the money? Was Cooper's bomb real after all? The FBI and Jerry maintain the bomb
was only road flares and a battery incapable of igniting either flares or dynamite detonators.
What accounts for the wires coming out of the
sticks, whatever the red sticks were?If the chemistry found on the tie and the money is from road flares
(not dynamite) how did these materials get on the
money? Is the chemistry from an explosion somehow different from explosive materials per se,
or road flare materials per se?
_ Did Cooper go straight at tying the bank bag to
his waste or did he experiment (try) other methods first - what did Tina actually see?
_ If the stairs slammed shut creating the pressure
'bump' how did the stairs get back open to be open
enough to cause sparks on landing at Reno?
_ Are not "oscillations" and "bump" events linked
to a common cause or scenario? (ie stairs down,
then stairs slamming up shut)? All of this usually
associated with a bail-out scenario? Could anyone
bail out via the back stairs without causing these
symptoms (that is what 377 is asking) ?
_ Would an explosion behind or behind-and-below
the aircraft cause the same effects as the
oscillations/bump we know happened? Or do
the stair scenario and an explsoion scenario
produce different effect?
_ If Cooper appeared at the airport looking like
a 'business man', could his dress have been intended to have him walk out (after landing) looking like a business man (complete with a
brief case)? . . . . businness man IN, business man
OUT !
Orange1 0
Quote_ What would account for chemistry consistent
with an explosive materials being found on the tie and on some of the money? Was Cooper's bomb real after all? The FBI and Jerry maintain the bomb
was only road flares and a battery incapable of igniting either flares or dynamite detonators.
What accounts for the wires coming out of the
sticks, whatever the red sticks were?If the chemistry found on the tie and the money is from road flares
(not dynamite) how did these materials get on the
money? Is the chemistry from an explosion somehow different from explosive materials per se,
or road flare materials per se?
Um... I must have missed this somewhere along the many posts. Chemicals consistent with an explosive device were found on the tie?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
377 22
Quotecould his dress have been intended to have him walk out (after landing) looking like a business man (complete with a
brief case)? . . . . businness man IN, business man
OUT !
Interesting idea. Wouldn't that argue for an urban LZ target where a businessman would blend in?
It would look pretty strange to see a soaking wet businessman walking along a rural road with a briefcase in a winter storm.
I DO think one could exit a stock 727 with the stairs down without causing a big pressure bump. The trick would be to minimize stair deflection and resulting rebound when your weight is removed. The key is to leave the plane from a position high on the stairs. I think that would be doable.
What do other jumpers think?
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
Where is Nigel when we need him to model the theoretical Cooper exit from high on the stairs?
377
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Amazon 7
QuoteQuote
What colour was the briefcase? Brown? easy to miss during a search in that kind of terrain, especially if you are looking for a parachute or a body.
First - searches
Ever tried to find a lost main? Or worse, freebag?
They aren't necessarily in easily-concealed colors
and you are looking in a limited, known, target area.
I have seen brightly color mains lost in a corn field
and never found. Also, bright yellow 3-man life rafts.
Second - terrain
If it landed anywhere but an open field, forget it.
Tall trees, low shrubs, water... Gone.
Third, and most important - search area.
No one can really define the correct exit point.
Theorize, yes. Absolutely know, no.
Can anyone really state a two-square mile area? No. A square mile is not a little area.
180mph is 3 miles a minute. Exit point defined to
a 10 minute interval? 30 miles. Add wind drift.
DBC could have easily landed outside of the search
area and been hanging in a tree for 10 years.
Except, of course, that Duane is Cooper.
Usually a smelly guy hanging in a tree will get some attention...the flight path area is not over rugged terrain area at all.. its west of the mountains along the valley that runs from Seattle to Portland. Even back then.. it was an area with a LOT of people in it all the time.
377 22
Amazon,
What do you think happened to Cooper? DOA or did he make it back to civilization and blend in?
Do you think he had prior jump experience? What kind?
The fact that the obscure door placard was found tells me that a body should have been found if it was in that general area.
Wonder where the briefcase landed? I do not think he jumped with it.
377
What do you think happened to Cooper? DOA or did he make it back to civilization and blend in?
Do you think he had prior jump experience? What kind?
The fact that the obscure door placard was found tells me that a body should have been found if it was in that general area.
Wonder where the briefcase landed? I do not think he jumped with it.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
as a jumper i agree it can be done. when i jumped the dc-9 you were basically leaving from the top step. there was not a "bump" a change in sound yes. If he stood on the step, deployed and let it pull him off then he was off and didn't have to have knowledge of the equipment, he had time to not worry about a hard pull, and didn't have a risk with unframiliar equipment. A modified staticline persay. If this was the case and he was smart enough to do that then anyone could have made the jump no experience necessary, and no terminal velocity to remove any clothing that is rumored to be on Cooper and blew off. go to Youtube and watch the many jet jumps there is not a lot of tumbling and as violent as some want you to believe. Trust me i have jumped the jet at Rantoul.
Amazon 7
QuoteAmazon,
What do you think happened to Cooper? DOA or did he make it back to civilization and blend in?
Do you think he had prior jump experience? What kind?
The fact that the obscure door placard was found tells me that a body should have been found if it was in that general area.
Wonder where the briefcase landed? I do not think he jumped with it.
377
I think he landed.. and made it to the nearest road with ease.
I do think he had prior jump experience, especially by his parachute selection. If you know you will probably be going into the trees at night, the lowest performance canopy you can get is the best to make a good hangup. The fact there are plenty of large farms and ranches in the area means lots of nice open fields also.
Why he selected the reserve he did... no idea, but I remember those training props and for all intents and purposes they looked exactly the same as a normal reserve, unless you tried to pull the handle a ways to check to see if they moved the pins in the cones. Who knows what the stress of the moment did to his decision making.
Trust me on this.. the area under that posted flight path south of Toutle is not exactly wilderness or even rugged.. its a mix of woods, ranches and farms and small towns... easily seen from 10k even in the dark.
If the placard was found... his body would definitely have been found... and no way did ne end up in Lake Merwin... he would have been west of there. even if he went into the water eventually his body would have bloated and floated.. nothing in there to eat him. Stinky decaying bodies attract attention from people.. its a smell you will never forget if you are unfortunate to get a whiff.
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The briefcase... no idea I would think he dumped it from the stairs.. after opening and dumping the contents, that way everything would have been ripped up in the fall to earth...it had served its purpose.
Everybody makes a big deal of the 25 pounds of money tied under the belly wart reserve.. that is nothing compared to the crap that military jumpers jump with ALL the time.
The money???? tossed into the river as he crossed the I-5 bridge headed south.
I think you are making valid points -
Of course if he bails south of Portland then how does
any money get back to Tina Bar except by hand or
the Willamette?
I may have more to say later -
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