snowmman 3
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Amazon 7
I have jumped from both... probably about 30 jumps or so.. the C-141 had a baffle that deployed outside the troop doors to keep jumpers from slamming into the fuselage.
georger 247
Quote
QuoteYou have read a 1973 FBI interview transcript of Braden, and the FBI disposition file?
I dont recall you ever claming this before?
I must have missed this!
Exactly. As far as Sluggo reported, the FBI never contacted Braden.
It's an example of how silly it is to listen to Jo's comments on what the FBI did or didn't do. Or Orange1's about what the FBI did or didn't do.
The right answer: no one has a clue what the FBI did. Best to assume they just jerked off.
I use Braden as an example, because Waugh thought he was worth investigating. If you're going to say Waugh's opinion is worth less than whoever's opinion it was that caused the FBI to interview that other SOG guy (forgot his name)...well I guess there's a difference of opinion.
Snow -this is ridiculous!
No one knows the facts anymore. Please explain to the this forum and everyone how anyone person here has had access to interviews done by the FBI. Can any of you explain that statement?
You have to be FBI to have access to these files - I can't even get information on my own husband who is deceased - SO how did anyone read the file on Braden's interview?
When it comes to claiming to have read FBI files of interviews and investigations done by the FBI regarding a suspect in any case by a member of this thread - I question HOW this can be! FIOA files? Surely if there is a copy of an interview with Braden, then Duane's files should also be public - but they aren't - not even to his wife.
Please explain what you are talking about - first you did and then you didn't. Is anything you say true or are you what I was called earlier - a troll? I thought a troll was someone who goes to a thread to create havoc and take control of the thread with no purpose other than to post unrelated "stuff" and taking a thread off subject.
Some of the conversation earlier today - should not be in a thread on History and Trivia. If you guys want to talk about risque subjects - take it to BonFire. I believe a lot of the old timers who use History and Trivia for information may be offended by the subjects discussed earlier. A little fun is one thing - but, some of you are carrying it to far..
The moderators will not tolerate this much longer and it is driving others away who come here to read the controversary and explorations about the hows and whys of the Cooper jump.
Sluggo pulled out and others who came to make contributions have pulled back. Sluggo tried to tell you there are things going on and now I am telling you serious things are developing regarding Cooper. The serious posters and readers DO not want to lose this thread because inappropriate things are being mentioned.
Just to put a point on this, YOU dont reveal your
sources either! Retired FBI who?
I do not mind if people dont want to reveal their sources.
I do mind if people claim to have read files and havent, or joke about it to the point nobody knows what is going on because the troll author has the personal opinion this is a useless exercise and HE
is damned well going to have it be that way, one way
or the other, all the while dong wha the thinks is serious work in the background he then reveals!?
Who was it said "nothing is fair" - Nomman.
And just for the record there are a few standup people here- Sluggo for one. Thomas for another.
They may be dead wrong and even play a few
games but sooner or later they are reliable, if given
a fair shake .... and I damned-well appreciate that.
Call me naive.
snowmman 3
Nobody knows whats going on?
Oh, I'm sorry if I contributed to that.
So: what is going on? I thought the only thing that happened in the last year was that 377 did some of his cool hi opening jumps and told us about them? (edit) airtwardo and i had blows with our bars, but I will concede airtwardo's bar was supreme, bar none.
I am not a standup person. No standup people are allowed in the CSG.
someone posted "Sluggo pulled out"
Hey, it wasn't me, who posted that.
I still claim that there is no such thing as a good post here. I've not seen one yet? I don't think the thread is about "good" posts. It's just about posts.
Oh, I'm sorry if I contributed to that.
So: what is going on? I thought the only thing that happened in the last year was that 377 did some of his cool hi opening jumps and told us about them? (edit) airtwardo and i had blows with our bars, but I will concede airtwardo's bar was supreme, bar none.
I am not a standup person. No standup people are allowed in the CSG.
someone posted "Sluggo pulled out"
Hey, it wasn't me, who posted that.
I still claim that there is no such thing as a good post here. I've not seen one yet? I don't think the thread is about "good" posts. It's just about posts.
Farflung 0
Amazon,
Is there a preference regarding gear extension? Why would Cooper want or think he wanted gear down?
In the cockpit, all we cared about was time over target, location of target, airspeed, heading and altitude.
It seems strange the jumpers would have a preference about the gear. It has more of a made for TV flavor than one created through experience.
What am I missing here?
Is there a preference regarding gear extension? Why would Cooper want or think he wanted gear down?
In the cockpit, all we cared about was time over target, location of target, airspeed, heading and altitude.
It seems strange the jumpers would have a preference about the gear. It has more of a made for TV flavor than one created through experience.
What am I missing here?
snowmman 3
QuoteAmazon,
Is there a preference regarding gear extension? Why would Cooper want or think he wanted gear down?
In the cockpit, all we cared about was time over target, location of target, airspeed, heading and altitude.
It seems strange the jumpers would have a preference about the gear. It has more of a made for TV flavor than one created through experience.
What am I missing here?
Farflung, I don't think this applies but since you appear to have flown these big jets, I was wondering what you think about this:
Is this true? i.e. does keeping the wheels down on a 727 allow one to use flaps 30 or 40 without getting the warning bell? Don't think it's connected to Cooper, but thought it was an interesting coincidence, if true. Rat had to lower the flaps to what was it 30? for Cooper to get the stairs down. (it's in the FBI summary from ckret)
'The warning horn will sound when any thrust lever is retarded or the flap control lever is retarded or the flap control lever is in the 30 degree or 40 degree detent with the landing gear in an "unsafe to land position."
(hell: if Sluggo's thoughts on cemeteries are "good posts" then I can post on this!)
(edit) I posted on this before. It was a FAA required change in 1969.
details:
per http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/list/69-12-02?OpenDocument
Airworthiness Directive
Federal Aviation Administration
14 CFR Part 39
Amendment 39-813; AD 69-12-02
BOEING 707/720 and 727 Series Airplanes
DATES: Effective September 9, 1969.
BOEING: Amendment 39-813: 707/720 and 727 series airplanes. Applies to all Boeing 707/720 and 727 series airplanes, as appropriate.
3. For Models 727/727C/727-200 ADD NEW PARAGRAPH HEADING
Georger said:
Just to put a point on this, YOU don't reveal your sources either! Retired FBI who? I do not mind if people dont want to reveal their sources.
Jo Replies:
With all of the replys it get confusing who said what - it was me who referred to retired FBI and most know who I mean.
----------------------------
Georger said:
And just for the record there are a few standup people here- Sluggo for one. Thomas for another. They may be dead wrong and even play a few
games but sooner or later they are reliable, if given
a fair shake .... and I damned-well appreciate that.
Call me naive.
Jo Replies:
Georger and I don't agree 99% of the time - this is one of the 1% we do agree. Everyone knows what happened to us and we were warned with the very FIRST POST on this thread.
I realize most of you do not agree with my subject - or the things I say - but I do TRY to make them make sense and I am sure many of you are tired of hearing it, hence why I was trying to wind down.
Why can't Cooper be discussed - with respect for each other and the views of others and not resorting to calling others liars. I don't go around critizing any of you for your ideas about who Cooper could be - it is interesting to see what is said about other suspects and the results.
When I made that post about the "Take the Baby down Stairs" etc. As I was finishing it - I felt the world lift of of my shoulders.
24 hrs of feeling good and sleeping good. Tired of holding back things and tired of repeating others...tired of defending myself for being honest.
I have been in touch with individuals I never expected to be contacted by and that is a very good thing. So much is going on right now and so many people are involved (in Cooper)...if that is bad or good, I have not been able to determine.
I believe I dropped a bomb on one of my own guys when - I told about the Baby, the stairs and the book. It was the last thing he expected and yet I have mentioned this book over and over for several yrs and the story about the stairs had been told. Some times a story just goes right back to the very begining when it come to an ending...because in the exploration of all of this there is only one truth.
Just to put a point on this, YOU don't reveal your sources either! Retired FBI who? I do not mind if people dont want to reveal their sources.
Jo Replies:
With all of the replys it get confusing who said what - it was me who referred to retired FBI and most know who I mean.
----------------------------
Georger said:
And just for the record there are a few standup people here- Sluggo for one. Thomas for another. They may be dead wrong and even play a few
games but sooner or later they are reliable, if given
a fair shake .... and I damned-well appreciate that.
Call me naive.
Jo Replies:
Georger and I don't agree 99% of the time - this is one of the 1% we do agree. Everyone knows what happened to us and we were warned with the very FIRST POST on this thread.
I realize most of you do not agree with my subject - or the things I say - but I do TRY to make them make sense and I am sure many of you are tired of hearing it, hence why I was trying to wind down.
Why can't Cooper be discussed - with respect for each other and the views of others and not resorting to calling others liars. I don't go around critizing any of you for your ideas about who Cooper could be - it is interesting to see what is said about other suspects and the results.
When I made that post about the "Take the Baby down Stairs" etc. As I was finishing it - I felt the world lift of of my shoulders.
24 hrs of feeling good and sleeping good. Tired of holding back things and tired of repeating others...tired of defending myself for being honest.
I have been in touch with individuals I never expected to be contacted by and that is a very good thing. So much is going on right now and so many people are involved (in Cooper)...if that is bad or good, I have not been able to determine.
I believe I dropped a bomb on one of my own guys when - I told about the Baby, the stairs and the book. It was the last thing he expected and yet I have mentioned this book over and over for several yrs and the story about the stairs had been told. Some times a story just goes right back to the very begining when it come to an ending...because in the exploration of all of this there is only one truth.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Quote
Is there a preference regarding gear extension? Why would Cooper want or think he wanted gear down?
Are you sure there was such a request? I do not believe Cooper asked for the gears to be down - he asked for the stairway to be down. These are things I let OTHER worry about.
Sluggo was the fact keeper - What does the FIOA state? Have you read it?
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
It's funny, and interesting, to see how many control freaks we have here.
It made perfect sense to people, that Tom Kaye wouldn't discuss anything he does. (as long as they knew about it). Or what he got from the FBI.
But the second something happens that they can't control or know?
Watch out! The Jelly Donuts start to fly!
yahoo! Saddle up!
(edit) I'm still amazed that Tom was confident he was going to publish a scientific paper. And that Sluggo still trots out this idea of "slow Science Team in Action..the way Life is Meant To Be"
It made perfect sense to people, that Tom Kaye wouldn't discuss anything he does. (as long as they knew about it). Or what he got from the FBI.
But the second something happens that they can't control or know?
Watch out! The Jelly Donuts start to fly!
yahoo! Saddle up!
(edit) I'm still amazed that Tom was confident he was going to publish a scientific paper. And that Sluggo still trots out this idea of "slow Science Team in Action..the way Life is Meant To Be"
georger 247
QuoteAmazon,
Is there a preference regarding gear extension? Why would Cooper want or think he wanted gear down?
The traditional answer has been: to slow the aircraft down. (to make it more stable at a slow speed at
a low altitude?).
Farflung 0
Righteous analysis. The systems (gear, flaps, stairs) are fundamentally separate. That is, activating one will not prevent the use of the other. Flaps can be lowered at 360 knots....but you may have some explaining to do after you land. There is no interlock for flaps, gear or the stairs, door or any hatch.
Would having the gear extended defeat the alarm? Yes. Is there a simple over-ride button which will perform the same? Yes. Is the aircrew familiar with the use of the alarm defeat button? Yes. It is used frequently.
The stairs have no connection or interlock to any other airframe instruments or controls. Just a light. Emergency operations make interlocks extremely risky to use. Imagine surviving a crash landing to have some switch or CB keep you from egress. Hatches and doors are independent operators for the most part.
Would having the gear extended defeat the alarm? Yes. Is there a simple over-ride button which will perform the same? Yes. Is the aircrew familiar with the use of the alarm defeat button? Yes. It is used frequently.
The stairs have no connection or interlock to any other airframe instruments or controls. Just a light. Emergency operations make interlocks extremely risky to use. Imagine surviving a crash landing to have some switch or CB keep you from egress. Hatches and doors are independent operators for the most part.
Farflung 0
skyjack71,
No. I'm no more sure of the gear being down than anything else.
From Sluggo's web site - Timeline: 18:21 PST " Cooper gives demands: Mexico City, gear down...."
Is this still an unknown?
No. I'm no more sure of the gear being down than anything else.
From Sluggo's web site - Timeline: 18:21 PST " Cooper gives demands: Mexico City, gear down...."
Is this still an unknown?
Farflung 0
georger,
What made Cooper think the gear extension would add stability?
Add drag, yes. Make recovery more difficult, yes. Make airspeed easier to achieve, no. Insure a lower airspeed, no.
The airspeed is limited by gear 'operation' not the fact that it is already deployed.
The photos of paratroopers in my previous post are not concerned about the gear or stability; why was Cooper?
What made Cooper think the gear extension would add stability?
Add drag, yes. Make recovery more difficult, yes. Make airspeed easier to achieve, no. Insure a lower airspeed, no.
The airspeed is limited by gear 'operation' not the fact that it is already deployed.
The photos of paratroopers in my previous post are not concerned about the gear or stability; why was Cooper?
georger 247
Quotegeorger,
What made Cooper think the gear extension would add stability?
Add drag, yes. Make recovery more difficult, yes. Make airspeed easier to achieve, no. Insure a lower airspeed, no.
The airspeed is limited by gear 'operation' not the fact that it is already deployed.
The photos of paratroopers in my previous post are not concerned about the gear or stability; why was Cooper?
I have no idea 'why' Cooper thought as he did, but Rat says he did ask for wheels down ... but flap settings were at the pilot's discretion: Here is Sluggo's post on this where he quotes Rat -
post#4225 8-26-08 Sluggo:
"Now Back to the landing gear thing:
Since aviation savvy and non-savvy alike read this, I’ll split the description between technical and non-technical. If anyone doesn’t understand, I’ll be glad to amplify it or you can consult any beginner pilot manual.
Flaps increase lift. Increased lift ALWAYS is accompanied by drag (called parasite drag). The increase in lift when lowering flaps causes the stall speed to get lower. Stall speed is the speed that the airflow on the wings will stop making lift (the plane falls out of the sky). Lower stall speed is a good thing if you want to fly slowly and not fall out of the sky. The more flaps (higher degrees) the slower the plane can fly. But you also have to add power to overcome the parasite drag.
While lift is ALWAYS accompanied by drag, drag is not always accompanied by lift. When you put the gear down (except is some special cases) you increase drag. The only thing you can do to keep the plane from slowing with the increased drag is to add more power. Adding more power uses more fuel.
Here is a transcript from an interview with Rataczak:
“He had given us the following demands:
The aircraft would be flown at 10,000 feet, with the flaps down, [and] the gear down. And, the demand later came that he wanted the flaps to be put at 15º. He had done some homework or possibly had some flight time… I don’t know…”
Let’s assume Cooper knew something about flight dynamics. At the minimum, he used the proper terminology. If he wanted the plane to fly slow, he would have said “flaps down,” possibly he would have said “flaps to 15º.” If he wanted to go even slower he would have said “flaps to 30º.” But instead he said “flaps AND gear down.” Lowering the gear did not increase lift and lower stall speed. It did however cause an enormous FUEL BURN RATE. So high, in fact, that at one time there was doubt they would make RNO.
So why would Cooper want them to fly in a configuration that burned excessive fuel? OKAY THIS IS SLUGGO TALKING, you know what my pet theory is… here it comes… To keep them from taking Victor-27.
The weakest part of my “forced them to V-23” argument was that V-27 didn’t add all that much distance (as opposed to V-23).
So, have I drawn the curve, THEN plotted the points? Or, have I plotted the points and then drawn the curve? Can anyone suggest another reason he specified “gear down?”
I am (as always) open for criticism.
Thanks for your patience,
Sluggo_Monster
377 22
QuoteIt seems strange the jumpers would have a preference about the gear. It has more of a made for TV flavor than one created through experience.
I've been jumping for 42 years. Jumpers care about airspeed (they prefer slow as it makes stable exits easier) and groundspeed (They like to know roughly what it is so that they can assure sufficient delays between exiting groups so that they won't be on top of each other raising collision risks). I was once spotting on a jump run with over 60 knots of headwind. I had guys screaming at me to exit but I waited and waited to give adequate horizontal separation from the group the exited before mine. Ground winds were only 15 knots.
Jumpers don't care much about aircraft configuration. On my DC 9-21 jet jump gear was up and we had some flaps. Same thing on my DC 4 jumps. On many DC 3 jumps gear was down in addition to some flap extension. Nobody jumping cared about gear position, just speed. We left it up to the PIC to figure out how to give us a slow exit speed.
Farflung: What aircraft types are in your logbook?
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
Quotegeorger,
What made Cooper think the gear extension would add stability?
Add drag, yes. Make recovery more difficult, yes. Make airspeed easier to achieve, no. Insure a lower airspeed, no.
The airspeed is limited by gear 'operation' not the fact that it is already deployed.
The photos of paratroopers in my previous post are not concerned about the gear or stability; why was Cooper?
I thought there was a bunch of posts where we discussed that one of the interesting things about a 727 is how it was much more stable at low speeds, then prior jets? (we posted some of the earlier articles in some engineering mags, where the designers were bragging about the novel wing/flap design, and tradeoffs)
But your main point about "wheels down" displaying lack of aviation knowledge seems right.
In terms of the other hijackers, I don't think we have as much detail. I remember a pilot quoting speed for at least one, sounded like they slowed down.
But get this: in prior posts I posted links to McNally's court case, where he exited at some amazing speed (supposedly), at night also. It seemed like the plane might not have slowed at all (but how would he have gotten stairs down)
here's the link
263 knots true air speed, claimed
http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F2/485/398/399299/
He ordered the plane to proceed toward Canada. At 3 a. m. on June 24th, en route to Canada, traveling at 10,000 feet and 263 knots true air speed and located 43 miles west of Fort Wayne, Indiana, and five miles south of Peru, Indiana, the captain noticed a shift in air pressure according to certain instrumentation, a Transponder system, that indicated to him that the hijacker had parachuted from the airplane. The jet then turned around and eventually landed in Chicago without the hijacker.
georger 247
Quotegeorger,
What made Cooper think the gear extension would add stability?
Add drag, yes. Make recovery more difficult, yes. Make airspeed easier to achieve, no. Insure a lower airspeed, no.
The airspeed is limited by gear 'operation' not the fact that it is already deployed.
The photos of paratroopers in my previous post are not concerned about the gear or stability; why was Cooper?
I think it is issues like this that has lead the FBI
and Ckret to think Cooper was a novice, from what
the FBI and others see as inconsistent-conflicting
demands.
I think we concluded long ago Cooper never did
ask for specific flap settings. He did ask for gear down (according to Rat) and for rear door open
at takeoff. (So why not specify a flap setting?).
Cooper did not ask for V23 or any specific route.
Gear down is not going to add to stability - it only
complicates a pilots job and adds turbulence
and instability (in bad weather) if I am correct?
It is also clear Cooper did not know how to get the rear door open. He thought it could be opened from the cockpit. That proved wrong so he wanted Tina
to open it. Then Tina and Cooper together got it open after messsing around for minutes...
It appears to me Cooper is relying a lot on others
and less on his own knowledge. He assumes gear down can be handled by the pilots, the rear stairs
lowered from the cockpit, then he calls on the PA and wants things evened out (more stable) ...
its not exactly the sign of someone experienced
and self confident in the context of that plane
in those circumstances. And the FBI assigns the
same evaluation to the whole hijacking .... he died.
But, he may not have died in spite of the flaws.
A number of equally good people think that.
Draw your own conclusions based on your knowledge
and experience -
snowmman 3
georger:
377 just gave the example of experienced jumpers, not really knowing much about gear up or down.
If experienced jumpers were going to exit a civilian jet for the first time (note there were no civilians jumping civilian jets at that time? military was just starting, broadly at least, we reviewed this before)..
what would they ask for?
On the one hand we say Cooper is stupid, but is he any more stupid than a jumper would be in 1971 when there is no experience base for jumping a jet?
to repeat: who would be confident and have experience in 1971 for the event? no one, right? (the military experts aren't likely Coopers, so excluded)
377 just gave the example of experienced jumpers, not really knowing much about gear up or down.
If experienced jumpers were going to exit a civilian jet for the first time (note there were no civilians jumping civilian jets at that time? military was just starting, broadly at least, we reviewed this before)..
what would they ask for?
On the one hand we say Cooper is stupid, but is he any more stupid than a jumper would be in 1971 when there is no experience base for jumping a jet?
to repeat: who would be confident and have experience in 1971 for the event? no one, right? (the military experts aren't likely Coopers, so excluded)
Farflung 0
georger,
You have targeted a Cooper non-sequitur. An aircrew member would not ask for or care if the gear was down. They would know that a request for 160 knots was enough. No need for flap settings or gear operation.
Yet it is documented that Cooper did ask for the gear to be down.
An experienced aviator would not care. Would an experienced jumper? Or has the 'lore' of Cooper's request become part of the skydiving lexicon? Would any skydiver care about the disposition of the gear; to include if it fell off the airframe? My guess (just a guess) is no.
Does this simple request for the gear to be down betray anything else?
You have targeted a Cooper non-sequitur. An aircrew member would not ask for or care if the gear was down. They would know that a request for 160 knots was enough. No need for flap settings or gear operation.
Yet it is documented that Cooper did ask for the gear to be down.
An experienced aviator would not care. Would an experienced jumper? Or has the 'lore' of Cooper's request become part of the skydiving lexicon? Would any skydiver care about the disposition of the gear; to include if it fell off the airframe? My guess (just a guess) is no.
Does this simple request for the gear to be down betray anything else?
snowmman 3
377 mentioned the 727 static line jump videos from before Cooper's jump.
I doubt Farflung has seen them.
I had taken them off youtube (but one still at dz.com)
I just made this one world-visible again.
This one has the 10x slow down.
I wanted to check again if they had wheels down, but couldn't tell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYW08S3dAUs
I doubt Farflung has seen them.
I had taken them off youtube (but one still at dz.com)
I just made this one world-visible again.
This one has the 10x slow down.
I wanted to check again if they had wheels down, but couldn't tell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYW08S3dAUs
377 22
I once exited a firewalled C 130 Herc at 14,000 ft. I was carrying instrumentation to record pressure fluctuations to help analyse AAD performance during unstable exits. Cypres wanted to be sure there would not be inadvertent reserve deployments during such exits.
Gear up, no flaps, going really fast. It was violent. I'll bet we were doing at least 260 knots. I got a t shirt and some stickers as compensation.
I was sure I could do a stable exit but I tumbled like a rag doll in a dryer for quite a few seconds. Humbling.
377
Gear up, no flaps, going really fast. It was violent. I'll bet we were doing at least 260 knots. I got a t shirt and some stickers as compensation.
I was sure I could do a stable exit but I tumbled like a rag doll in a dryer for quite a few seconds. Humbling.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
I am God.
(edit) Proof: I can never be banned.
(edit) Jo said "now I am telling you serious things are developing regarding Cooper"
No matter how many times she does it, I will admit I get a kick out of seeing her sincerity. It's kind of like the warm fuzzy feeling you get knowing the sun will rise tomorrow.
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