377 22
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snowmman 3
377 said "One thing you can be sure of, there is no chance of me getting the first post on page 666, not in a group of skydivers."
that's what I was thinking.
So then you say it's competitive. So will there just be a mad rush on page 665, and it's just luck of the draw who hits the top of 666.
Or will superior planning come into play...i.e. timing.
It can be done with just one post. Just has to be at the exact right time.
A D license could probably not post on page 664 or 665 and get the first post on page 666. That would be true skill...
So the competitive thing is complicated. Just blabbing away and posting 60 in a row and getting 666 is boring. No brags there.
The "one shot, one kill" is the brag. And it can't be altered once it's done. There will only be one poster, ever, that posted the first post on page 666.
Even if people attempt it on another thread, what are the chances that any other thread in this forum can make it to 666 pages?
I'm just saying, it's not like this is a trivial little thing like night jumps with flares.
that's what I was thinking.
So then you say it's competitive. So will there just be a mad rush on page 665, and it's just luck of the draw who hits the top of 666.
Or will superior planning come into play...i.e. timing.
It can be done with just one post. Just has to be at the exact right time.
A D license could probably not post on page 664 or 665 and get the first post on page 666. That would be true skill...
So the competitive thing is complicated. Just blabbing away and posting 60 in a row and getting 666 is boring. No brags there.
The "one shot, one kill" is the brag. And it can't be altered once it's done. There will only be one poster, ever, that posted the first post on page 666.
Even if people attempt it on another thread, what are the chances that any other thread in this forum can make it to 666 pages?
I'm just saying, it's not like this is a trivial little thing like night jumps with flares.
377 22
QuoteQuoteThat depends on if it is the formal name of the aircraft or the nickname. I have numerous jumps out of C-47s/DC-3s known as Goonybirds or Dakotas. Never jumped from a Piper Dakota at least that I can remember.
ah! I was always curious how much it costs per hour to rent a C-47. I have no idea how much you guys pay for this sport.
Skip Evans is DA MAN and N26MA is DA PLANE if you want to do anything DC 3.
Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnQnMVobGjI
I've jumped out of N 26MA with Skip at the helm many many times. We were typically charged $22 to 14,000 feet and there were about 35 of us in the plane. I figure he was making about $1500 an hour. I'd expect to pay about $2000 an hour for a commercial charter, with crew maybe more. They are sloooow.
Here are real operating costs:
http://www.dc3history.org/operating_costs.htm
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Orange1 0
QuoteOh, about Cooper. I keep wondering why he used Tina as an intermediary to communicate with the cokpit. There is some psych clue here, but I can't quite figure it out. From an operational viewpoint it was a bad idea. Too many chances for errors and also for the crew to warn Tina if they were going to storm the cabin and try to rescue her from Cooper. Cooper should have not allowed her to communicate with the cockpit.
Of course if Cooper thought one of the crew might recognize his voice that could explain it.
377
My bold... nice thinking. But would that he mean he knew who the crew was going to be? And that a pilot but not the cabin crew might recognise him? Implies a significant level of knowledge and planning?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
377 22
QuoteThe "one shot, one kill" is the brag. And it can't be altered once it's done. There will only be one poster, ever, that posted the first post on page 666.
I am desperately trying to modify some eBay sniping code to do the job, but there is still too much random chance.
What would Duane do? Could he code a solution?
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
QuoteQuoteThe "one shot, one kill" is the brag. And it can't be altered once it's done. There will only be one poster, ever, that posted the first post on page 666.
I am desperately trying to modify some eBay sniping code to do the job, but there is still too much random chance.
What would Duane do? Could he code a solution?
377
See this is why I can't understand how skydivers stay alive. It's like their thought processes are so limited when it comes to problem solving.
I will use the Gary Coleman solution.
From page 660-664 I will totally get everyone pissed off at me so everyone quits the thread, and there are no more people posting except me.
I will leisurely stroll to page 666 and make the sole post.
When there's competition, you don't worry how to win the competition. You eliminate the competition.
See, regardless of how people feel on the day of 666, in 5 years, I will still be the one with the first post on 666, long after the other issues are forgotten.
(edit) I will spend pages 667-734 bragging about how I succeeded in my quest for 666.
377 22
Damn, I just can't get cheat to win integrated into my skydiver brain.
Gary Coleman liked to watch trains. Wonder if he saw Duane riding out of Washington in a boxcar?
http://rationreality.com/2007/08/29/gary-coleman-model-railroader-model-american/
Michael Jackson should have taken a clue from Gary with the HO scale setup. Really dumb building NEVERLAND in full scale.
377
Gary Coleman liked to watch trains. Wonder if he saw Duane riding out of Washington in a boxcar?
http://rationreality.com/2007/08/29/gary-coleman-model-railroader-model-american/
Michael Jackson should have taken a clue from Gary with the HO scale setup. Really dumb building NEVERLAND in full scale.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
QuoteDamn, I just can't get cheat to win integrated into my skydiver brain.
whenever I see someone do something crazy, that's what I'm always trying to understand...how did this person do something different..i.e. cheat..whether it's planning, training, skill, knowledge, gear, time, money, weather. ...so what used to be crazy, appeared sane to him.
people really never do crazy things. Its just a matter of what is needed to make it sane.
The sad thing is when people just think it's a matter of being brave. Brave is cheap. Anyone can do brave.
(edit) The best cheating is hanging out with a group that you can sponge off of.
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QuoteBrave is cheap. Anyone can do brave.
Maybe... I watched some tatooed bad ass latino gangsta wannabe secretly puking behind the DZ hanger right before he was going up for a tandem.
He seemed to be having a real hard time doing brave.
I think brave is hard. I was scared to death on my S/L jumps back in 68.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
QuoteThe best cheating is hanging out with a group that you can sponge off of.
Pretty hard sponging off of jumpers. At best you will be a second sponge in a serial sponging chain.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
QuoteQuoteBrave is cheap. Anyone can do brave.
Maybe... I watched some tatooed bad ass latino gangsta wannabe secretly puking behind the DZ hanger right before he was going up for a tandem.
He seemed to be having a real hard time doing brave.
377
There's a constant refrain, of people wanting to say skydiving requires a huge suck-up of mental state, and they use examples of the weakest people they can find.
Since anyone with a checkbook can skydive, who pukes or doesn't...means little.
If people want to brag, from my understanding of the sport, I'd like to hear about people who are confident enough in their techique and gear to make 10 practice cutaways a year.
If you don't, why not? Are you afraid? Because you suck? Because you really are just rolling dice? and thinking not rolling pairs of dice will make you safer?
(edit) I'm thinking that a cutaway is a more complicated event than just jumping without a reserve..i.e. a base jump.
georger 244
QuoteQuoteQuoteamazon said " No body ever found along the river... leads me to surmise he did not land in the water and drown. "
Amazon: I posted a couple of cases of drownings in the Columbia, in that area, (including one around the time period) where the body was never found.
One was an plane. Textronix executive and his girlfriend.
The claims of "the body would be found" are not accurate.
Interestingly I was last night watching a documentary on a flood at a town called Laingsburg in 1981. One river leading into another down to the sea a few hundred km's away would have been the water flow. 72 bodies were never found.
During a flood you have other dynamics working like houses and trees and cars and other debris washing along and crushing mangling the bodies or burial under rock or mud.
Without those dynamics.. in a river with normal flow its just not common.
The amount of fisherman all over the Lower Columbia River going after Salmon , Steelhead, and Sturgeon all fall winter and spring are litterally hundreds of boats a day during the slow periods during the week to many thousands every weekend. those are a LOT of eyes... not to mention all those hooks.
Debris does not deposit on Tina Bar without
a high water scenario.
Buried debris at Tina Bar is exposed during
high water scenarios.
Dating: Beyond confirming serial numbers,
confirming sediment and sand type between
the bills of the money, and Palmer identifying
strata (1974 dredge layer) at the money location, there was no attempt to date the money or
anything else at Tina Bar. The failure to do
standard dating and other forensics at the time
was a major omission, if it was not done.
georger 244
QuoteThat depends on if it is the formal name of the aircraft or the nickname. I have numerous jumps out of C-47s/DC-3s known as Goonybirds or Dakotas. Never jumped from a Piper Dakota at least that I can remember.
The topic is DB Cooper ?
georger 244
Even if people attempt it on another thread, what are the chances that any other thread in this forum can make it to 666 pages?
with you and Jo there its guaranteed
snowmman 3
QuoteQuoteThat depends on if it is the formal name of the aircraft or the nickname. I have numerous jumps out of C-47s/DC-3s known as Goonybirds or Dakotas. Never jumped from a Piper Dakota at least that I can remember.
The topic is DB Cooper ?
What year were Piper Dakotas first manufactured? Could Cooper have done any jumps from a Piper Dakota? If not, I agree it's off topic.
Does anyone know?
Here's a '94 that claims to be the "last one manufactured"
http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/ViewAd.aspx?id=127247
Wikipedia says this
"PA-28-236 Dakota
In 1977, Piper stopped producing the Cruiser (140) and Pathfinder (235), but introduced a new 235 horsepower (175 kW) plane, the Dakota (PA-28-236), based on the Cherokee 235, Charger, Pathfinder models but with the new semi-tapered wing."
So was 1977 the first year of Piper Dakota? If so, are we saying Cooper never jumped a Piper Dakota?
But what if he continued jumping after the hijack?
Actually if there's evidence of a Piper Dakota jump, I suppose that means we know Cooper survived?
Seems pretty on topic to me. A good post.
Orange1 0
QuoteIf people want to brag, from my understanding of the sport, I'd like to hear about people who are confident enough in their techique and gear to make 10 practice cutaways a year.
If you don't, why not? Are you afraid? Because you suck? Because you really are just rolling dice? and thinking not rolling pairs of dice will make you safer?
eh. legality, possibility of losing gear, payment for reserve repacks, filling in incident reports every time, etc.
been discussed a few times. I think this really sums up the answer:
QuoteBut is it worth your 'piece of mind' to risk losing $2000+ in gear (main, free bag, handles) and risk a reserve malfunction when you have really nothing to gain from it?
if you really want, go read this thread:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2947488;search_string=intentional%20cutaway;#2947488
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
377 22
QuoteI'd like to hear about people who are confident enough in their techique and gear to make 10 practice cutaways a year.
If you don't, why not? Are you afraid?
Yes! I am afraid. I could lie and say it is the expense of the reserve repacks, but it's really just fear.
I am also afraid of BASE jumping from altitudes insufficent to use a reserve.
I am afraid to approach hot women at parties.
I am afraid that the FBI might really be covering up a massive Cooper conspiracy that involves Duane.
I am no longer afraid of the dark.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
We ask Snow to make one solo FF jump.
He asks us to do ten cutaways.
What's wrong with this picture?
377
He asks us to do ten cutaways.
What's wrong with this picture?
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
QuoteWe ask Snow to make one solo FF jump.
He asks us to do ten cutaways.
What's wrong with this picture?
377
Okay, so you're admitting that you don't want to roll two dice, and part of the safety is only rolling one die. (at a time)
If ten cutaways aren't safe, then yeah I'll be afraid because it's like running across a highway with cars going by.
Be stupid not to be afraid if death is on the table, and it's independent of anything I can do.
You can do the ten cutaways with a third reserve. (remember: cheat to win) Or: are you saying the failure modes (entanglement) mean a third reserve doesn't help?
If so, you're just bullshitting yourself that the reserve is a good enough safety (because you don't trust your cutaway procedure)
That's the real problem I see. You say you have a reserve, but it doesn't cover the common cases that cause death under main canopy failure (entanglement? You can fill in the blank for whatever other cases make you not want to do cutaways....You don't think you're mentally or physically fit? what is it that you're afraid of? misjudging altitude? Cheat to win, do it at 8000 ft?
What's the problem, really?
(edit) I'll note the common reliability assessment problem I see...thinking that the reserve creates an independent source of reliability, so you can multiply the fail rates and get a very low fail rate.
The problem is, the fail rate of the reserve is not independent of the main canopy failure mode.
So any reliability model people talk about, is bullshit.
The only real one is derived from the actual death/accident statistics. Not people's perception of "does the reserve keep me safe"
snowmman 3
377 said "I am afraid that the FBI might really be covering up a massive Cooper conspiracy that involves Duane. "
No need to fear. It's a sure thing. Jo has told us.
The fact she won't expose it on Coast to Coast, just means she's part of the conspiracy.
That's why when you shoot at people, you need to shoot everyone. Everyone else is in on the conspiracy.
No need to fear. It's a sure thing. Jo has told us.
The fact she won't expose it on Coast to Coast, just means she's part of the conspiracy.
That's why when you shoot at people, you need to shoot everyone. Everyone else is in on the conspiracy.
snowmman 3
orange1 forwarded: "But is it worth your 'piece of mind' to risk losing $2000+ in gear (main, free bag, handles) and risk a reserve malfunction when you have really nothing to gain from it?"
So you're saying there is no learned skill involved in a cutaway, there's no need to practice? The result is independent of me?
(edit) That I can't create a training situation that is less risky than the worse real thing, but will make a worse real thing, less worse?
I don't need it?
Like I say, I'm surprised skydivers live. Although, with the thought processes involved, maybe the low death rates show that it's pretty safe no matter how you think or act..i.e. you can be a dumbass and still have a good chance of living.
So you're saying there is no learned skill involved in a cutaway, there's no need to practice? The result is independent of me?
(edit) That I can't create a training situation that is less risky than the worse real thing, but will make a worse real thing, less worse?
I don't need it?
Like I say, I'm surprised skydivers live. Although, with the thought processes involved, maybe the low death rates show that it's pretty safe no matter how you think or act..i.e. you can be a dumbass and still have a good chance of living.
377 22
QuoteWhat's the problem, really?
I'm "ascared." It's really that simple.
It's REALLY hard cutting away from a semi-OK chute, e.g. open but serious control issues due to damage.
Cutting away from a perfect canopy would be tough for me. It would be like leaving a warm stateroom in a luxury liner and taking to a lifeboat, even though both canopies are pretty similar in my case.
Some CRW jumpers used to have tertiary back up reserves. They are almost never seen now. I don't know why, maybe a lurking CRW dawg can tell us.
It isnt about rolling dice. It's about preserving the illusion that skydiving isn't gambling. When you cut away you admit it is gambling, that you are an addict and that you would have died but for that extra canopy you carried.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
Quoteyou can be a dumbass and still have a good chance of living.
ABSOLUTELY. Just don't do hook turns, swoops, etc.
Look at how most jumpers die: landing accidents under fully functional canopies.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Guys and women. I once saw a thin white haired woman step down from an S2 fire tanker cockpit at Sonoma County Airport. The S2Fs (STOOFS) were the worst, short coupled tail to fit in aircraft carrier elevators , inadequate ruder authority if you lost an engine at high power settings and had a hiccup in the hydraulic rudder boost system.
Newbies had trouble spotting the nondescript LZ which was just outside the airport fence. We asked one of the tanker pilots to mark the edge sometime if he had a little slurry left and the DZ wasnt active. He put a nice red line down the eastern boundary of the LZ making it easily seen from the air.
I talked with some tanker pilots when they were taking a break. One had lost a good friend in a crash of one of those GIANT Sikorsky S 64 Skycrane water drop helos. They had a rotor crack warning light (rotor blades are lightly pressurized with dry Nitrogen and a pressure switch serves as a crack sensor). They elected to continue flying to their base and the rotor failed in flight.
http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS351US351&q=sikorsky+skycrane&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=5ndHS8fvJojUsQPUurH1Dw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCgQsAQwAw
Crazy Creek had a fatal collision a few weeks ago between a tow plane and a glider in the landing pattern. I don't think there is jumping there any more.
The tower controllers at Sonoma County liked us, at least they did when I talked to them over an after shift beer.
Managing traffic around a 12,000 ft vertical tube right next to their runway was a challenge for them and they were up for it. The GA pilots HATED us and eventually ran the DZ off with political pressure.
The air museum at the field is pretty cool, lots of military planes including an F 8 Crusader and an F 14 Tomcat. The director is a former SR 71 pilot with some amazing stories.
What does this have to do with Cooper? Not much so I'll have to add something.
One thing you can be sure of, there is no chance of me getting the first post on page 666, not in a group of skydivers.
Can my girlfriend stay at your place in the spare room while I am travelling?
Can I leave my brand new rig with you but you gotta promise not to jump it.
I have to leave the raffle early. Can I give you my tickets and you'll tell me if I won?
It's really important to me to have the first post on page 666 of the DB Cooper forum. I can trust you guys not to jump me right?
You get the picture.
Oh, about Cooper. I keep wondering why he used Tina as an intermediary to communicate with the cokpit. There is some psych clue here, but I can't quite figure it out. From an operational viewpoint it was a bad idea. Too many chances for errors and also for the crew to warn Tina if they were going to storm the cabin and try to rescue her from Cooper. Cooper should have not allowed her to communicate with the cockpit.
Of course if Cooper thought one of the crew might recognize his voice that could explain it.
377
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