DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Ckret made a number of posts where he appeared pissed off at the thread...like people here "just didn't get it" and apparently he did.

In hindsight, it's really funny to go back and look at Ckret's posts.

He posted a long one here, summarizing his viewpoint on Mar 29, 2008
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3167547;search_string=pioneer;#3167547
including choice paragraphs like:

"We have some breaks in the case to go over and actually I am surprised none of you caught it. Now more than ever I believe Cooper lost his money in the air and screwed into the ground without ever pulling."

I believe this for all of the reasons I have posted in the past that I don't have the energy to repost and the following:"
...

"Now the choice of the back chute and this is where I am surprised no one caught this. He had two choices, an NB6 with no padding and no sleeve or a fully padded Pioneer sport chute with a sleeve. If you had any knowledge of the challenges you were facing with the jump you were about to make, why would you choose the NB6, you wouldn't. "

The funny part is how he closed it:

"Now what?

We have to find the farthest northwest location that the bag could have landed and emptied into the Washougal Water Shed, keeping in mind the 77 flood.

next we have to drop a canvass bag of money from 10,000 feet and see how far it travels under conditions. Then we have to take that data and extrapolate it to 11/24/71.

With these two items we can find a new flight path and location of the pressure bump. With that, we can come up with a new AB line and if cooper did a no pull locate his resting place at the new point A.

To find out who he was, we need a list of all who served on flight crews out of McChord from 46 to 51. I think we can rule out pilots, even if they were not jumpers they have to much awareness of the forces at play and would have thought better of the jump or did it like McCoy.

Once we have that list, find all from 5'10 to 6'1 brown hair, brown eyes. Then a quick background, if they were alive after 11/71 they can be ruled out. If they disappeared after 1971 then we have a suspect.

The first part is do-able, the second will take some huge effort and the cooperation of those who have other things to worry about right now."

(edit) I would note that I'm the first post on the page, again.

[377 22]

Quote

"The Pioneer Para-Commander Mark 1 24-ft. diameter parachute was tested. A total of 246 tests was made using a B-66, a C-130, a C-47 and an H-21 aircraft. Launch velocities varied from minimum (near-zero) to 225 KCAS and launch pressure altitudes ranged from 1000 to 35,000 ft."

B66 ???? Now that's a RARE jumpship. How would you exit? Bomb bay?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

"The Pioneer Para-Commander Mark 1 24-ft. diameter parachute was tested. A total of 246 tests was made using a B-66, a C-130, a C-47 and an H-21 aircraft. Launch velocities varied from minimum (near-zero) to 225 KCAS and launch pressure altitudes ranged from 1000 to 35,000 ft."

B66 ???? Now that's a RARE jumpship. How would you exit? Bomb bay?

377

I can't find the report. The summary I snipped was here
http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0484799

(edit) they used some live, some test dummies. See the link.

[377 22]

Quote

It makes no sense that Cossey would say his Pioneer was the superior rig. Why did he say that so much in the newspapers? Was Cossey saying "If Cooper delayed until he achieved stable terminal, and then deployed, the Pioneer would have been the superior rig?"

Yes. He is saying that if you don't blow it up with an overspeed deployment, the PC is the better canopy. The C9 is far stronger. If I had to deploy above 150 kts I'd take the C9.

Funny, with all the huge advances in canopy tech, fighter pilots still use C9s or their equivalent.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

It makes no sense that Cossey would say his Pioneer was the superior rig. Why did he say that so much in the newspapers? Was Cossey saying "If Cooper delayed until he achieved stable terminal, and then deployed, the Pioneer would have been the superior rig?"

Yes. He is saying that if you don't blow it up with an overspeed deployment, the PC is the better canopy. The C9 is far stronger. If I had to deploy above 150 kts I'd take the C9.

Funny, with all the huge advances in canopy tech, fighter pilots still use C9s or their equivalent.

377

What was the probable descent rate for the pioneer (if it was a PC, maybe a mark 2 by then?) compared to the 28' C-9...assuming 200 lb load.

It seems like Ckret did the evaluation of "better" on a crazy set of criteria. (look at his strident statements. They're loud, but lacking in "why"...like who's going to be steering a PC at night?)
..and you couldn't tell from the outside if the NB-6 had a deployment sleeve? If any were non-military, they might have had a deployment sleeve...why was Ckret so adamant about the sleeve thing being "obvious"...heck Cossey's NB-6 had a rip mod and a 28' canopy! pretty non-standard!

[hangdiver 1]

snowmman says>
look hangdiver. There's no way Orange1 will jump with me at the 2011 40-year anniversary of Coopers' jump unless you give me the thumbs up.

I'll give you the thumbs up and you could probably talk 377 into doing video. That gives you about two years to convince Orange1.

>So there's no way Cooper could have email, right?

That depends on if Cooper "could" have ever even existed. I still don't think anyone can prove there was a hijacker on the plane. Not even Ckret.

I'm sure, because my girlfriend told me so, that the "Cooper character" if he existed and lived could have an email address.

I eat breakfast with a guy 83 years old,who uses an iphone or something like that and is always on the internet. I should ask him if he thinks Cooper has an email address.

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[hangdiver 1]

I found this weird quote in an article about smoke jumpers and the CIA:

Quote

Forest Service link

Many experts who worked in Intermountain's parachute program were recruited or on loan from the Forest Service. In fact, the CIA official who first approached Roberts about Marana Air Park was an ex-smokejumper who had joined the spy agency in Missoula.

Garfield M. Thorsrud was one of five former Missoula smokejumpers who ended up running Intermountain. Dozens more would pass through the Intermountain base en route to destinations such as Laos and Cambodia.

Thorsrud and the others had parachuted many times from airplanes operated by Johnson Flying Service, a little Missoula airline that was a Forest Service firefighting contractor. Evergreen later would buy Johnson, about the same time it was buying Intermountain's assets from the CIA.

'Funny stuff'

One former Evergreen Air Center official who found the company fascinating was C. Roger Fulton, vice president for administration during most of 1980. Fulton was working for a Tucson shopping mall when Evergreen hired him to help run its business office. He said he had become convinced by a number of small, undramatic happenings that the air center was still involved in covert activities.

"It was a collection of funny stuff,'' Fulton said. He recalled, for example, being politely steered away from a meeting between George Doole and some of the old Intermountain hands.

---

source

That proves it! Duane was a smoke jumper who worked for the CIA.

was this post on topic? only g knows...

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[snowmman 3]

So you're thinking Cooper had smokejumper experience?

That would be odd. I mean, when would Cooper have had freefall experience? Smokejumpers static-lined back then right?

So you're thinking a static-lining smokejumper hijacked 305 and jumped out in the night? No free-fall experience beforehand at all?

What does your girlfriend think? Wait, just give me her home phone, and I'll call her and said you thought we should have dinner and talk. Does she like wine?

(edit) with regard to posting. I'm guessing that sometimes there are beginners, and they ask "how can you have so many jumps" and you don't quite know what to say, and just smile? well...
(edit) I was thinking about Duane's Ranger training...Could Duane have trained Cooper?

[Orange1 0]

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snowmman says>
look hangdiver. There's no way Orange1 will jump with me at the 2011 40-year anniversary of Coopers' jump unless you give me the thumbs up.

I'll give you the thumbs up and you could probably talk 377 into doing video. That gives you about two years to convince Orange1.

Simple reason why i won't jump with Snow... because he probably still won't have done even 1 freefall (solo) by then, much less have an A (or whatever the US reg is to jump with someone else).
I'll jump with 377, or any other jumpers on this thread, if they'll forgive my low jump numbers (I'm told I jump well for my jump numbers, but they are still a fraction of some other posters here)... or maybe i'll just do 4 hours tunnel time first.

Off topic: any investors interested in a wind tunnel in SA, let me know. (Serious by the way -- plan is there but we need money, people. Hey Snow, Snowwman Industries would find the cost small change?)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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So you're thinking Cooper had smokejumper experience?

That would be odd. I mean, when would Cooper have had freefall experience? Smokejumpers static-lined back then right?

So you're thinking a static-lining smokejumper hijacked 305 and jumped out in the night? No free-fall experience beforehand at all?

Hangdiver, you're forgiven for not reading every post in the thread and realising we have discussed this already. In fact that exact quote may have been reproduced.

edit: I certainly ref'd the site you did. Do a bit more search eg smokejumper.com and it is common knowledge that smokejumpers were recruited for Air America and other CIA ops in Asia in their "off" season.

Snow is conveniently forgetting the angle that Cooper as loadmaster or kicker (as many of the smokejumpers were when they worked for Air American in Asia in the offseason) means that this remains a very relevant angle. Which could also explain the choice of rig.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

I think hangdiver is insane. He jumps out of airplanes.

(edit) You know when people see a 3-card monte dealer on the street? ...everyone thinks they could do it. Like everyone thinks they can jump out of a plane no problem, I guess.

Put your money down. Find the lady, even money bet.

(edit) Maybe hangdiver is smokin' and tokin', which made him think of smokejumpers just now?

[377 22]

Orange, if you ever visit the West Coast I'll treat you to some tunnel time, that goes for Snow too if he promises to do AFF afterwards.

I don't know if you've flown in tunnels, but they are an AMAZINGLY effective way to quickly improve FF skills. Even five 2 minute sessions will prduce a big leap in skill. You can see your reflection in the plexiglass and see how body position affects flight. The TV debrief helps a lot too.

Anyone who is contemplating AFF and lives near a tunnel could benefit big time by pre-learning stability before starting AFF.

I am not sure how profitable tunnels are. They eat LOTS of power (600KW ++), need at least 3 employees on duty during operation, and probably need a fair bit of maintenance I am told that occasionally coins and even tiny cell phones come out of tourist's pockets and can knick the fan blades. I bet insurance is high too.

I've never seen anyone make much money off anything skydive related. Have you? We used to joke in the 70s that if a DZO had a good car FOR SURE he was smuggling drugs on the weekdays.
I am soooo grateful that there are people who want to be DZOs. It looks like financial insanity to me.

Snow definitely has the right stuff to be a good jumper. You'd see it too if you met him and saw some of his climbing photos. We just have to get him to start AFF training. He is actually a nice guy too but nobody here would ever believe it.

Snow probably would rather be "rude and abrasive" here, and in control, than have to be a humble newbie taking orders from sadistic AFF jumpmasters. I can totally see his point.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[hangdiver 1]

The quote was the funny stuff comment scroll down to page 4 on the pdf file it is page 92 on the transcript file that Cooper says no funny stuff. I thought it was interesting that the comment was also made involving the CIA and smoke jumpers. That's as much of a connection as anything else being discussed here.

>So you're thinking a static-lining smokejumper hijacked 305 and jumped out in the night? No free-fall experience beforehand at all?

I have no idea what jump experience Cooper had. Apparently he thought he knew what he was doing.

>What does your girlfriend think? Wait, just give me her home phone, and I'll call her and said you thought we should have dinner and talk. Does she like wine?

I don't think she gives a shit. She thinks anyone who jumps out of a plane is an idiot.
Just call here I'll give her the phone, she'll probably want to talk about cpu speeds and computer shit.
Yeah, white.

>(edit) I was thinking about Duane's Ranger training...Could Duane have trained Cooper?

I think my son mentioned Duane after he went through Ranger School. Duane is a legend...

My son just called as I was writing this post to tell me his girlfriend is in labor right now. I'm gonna be a grandpa, again. Damn I feel old.

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[snowmman 3]

Amazing how there's always a connection...hangdiver to Duane the Ranger.

"I think my son mentioned Duane after he went through Ranger School. "

congrats grandpa-even-more-to-be..

[hangdiver 1]

>(edit) Maybe hangdiver is smokin' and tokin', which made him think of smokejumpers just now?

Shhh... I thought no one would know. snowmman has psychic powers.

>I think hangdiver is insane. He jumps out of airplanes.

I've been known to drive a car out of a plane once also.
I think bravery relies to much on luck. Just because you're brave doesn't necessarily denote skill. Skill relies on experience and risk management. I do have some skill but also have been real lucky.

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[hangdiver 1]

>congrats grandpa-even-more-to-be..

Thanks snowmman!

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[Orange1 0]

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Orange, if you ever visit the West Coast I'll treat you to some tunnel time, that goes for Snow too if he promises to do AFF afterwards.

I don't know if you've flown in tunnels, but they are an AMAZINGLY effective way to quickly improve FF skills.

Indeed. 2 hours or so on a trip to Orlando, when i got back our DZO stood in for one of our 4-way team who was ill on a couple of jumps. Afterwards he kept saying to me "you only have 85 jumps? how can you fly like that with 85 jumps?! i couldn't fly like that with 400 jumps" and very soon thereafter packed his son, who then had just got his A, off on a tunnel trip

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

The quote was the funny stuff comment... Cooper says no funny stuff. I thought it was interesting that the comment was also made involving the CIA and smoke jumpers. That's as much of a connection as anything else being discussed here.
-----
My son just called as I was writing this post to tell me his girlfriend is in labor right now. I'm gonna be a grandpa, again. Damn I feel old.

Ah, I see. Not sure how common it was as a phrase? i seem to remember it from the movies. But you are right, it is at least as connected as most of the other discussion!

And congrats on the grandfather stuff

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[airtwardo 7]

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Skill relies on experience and risk management. I do have some skill but also have been real lucky.

I'd rather be lucky than good...when I rely on 'skill' it never ends well.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[snowmman 3]

I've been watching some of the AFF hell vids on youtube.

The process doesn't seem so well thought thru. The students sometimes don't seem very ready for what they're doing...Some amazing saves by instructors though!

here's a crazy AFF gone bad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC-CTwe-7dI

saw another interesting one where it was a big guy..all 3 going out the door backwards, they lost their grip and the guy was kind of out of control..they went thru hell trying to intercept him. A couple tries...finally they got to him.

(edit) here it is..just found it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Tj2ZotItc&feature=related

[hangdiver 1]

>And congrats on the grandfather stuff

Thanks Orange1!


>I'd rather be lucky than good...when I rely on 'skill' it never ends well.

Yep, I remember looking at the PC bridle half-hitched around my arm thinking, I hope I'm lucky because I for sure ain't that skilled.
My actual thought was "so this is how I'm gonna die".

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[hangdiver 1]

Sounds like you're gettin all amped up to take your first leap. I hope you do. But a word of warning: it's addicting.

I was wrong, my girlfriend says she doesn't think jumpers are idiots just drug addicts for the adrenaline.

Knowing some of the stuff you do snowmman if you start jumping before you know it you'll be wanting to base jump off some glacier.

I don't know what it is but having a parachute on my back gives me a feeling of power. Maybe power over gravity I dunno?

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[Orange1 0]

hey twardo...nice to see you round
with you and amazon here this feels almost like a 'real" dz forum at the moment

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I've been watching some of the AFF hell vids on youtube.

The process doesn't seem so well thought thru. The students sometimes don't seem very ready for what they're doing...Some amazing saves by instructors though!

Yeah..look some people should not be allowed to jump, but sometimes they seem really together until they take that leap.
Anyway as for "hell vids" .. i mean, it's a bit like your newspaper doesn't run a headline of "98000 cars drove without incident today"...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[hangdiver 1]

I'm thinking this post or the next is going to be top of page.

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan