DB Cooper

[hangdiver 1]

Thanks Sluggo! Everyone is doing fine and my son got a chuckle out of me calling him dad.

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[snowmman 3]

Quote

snowmman you should know we call it "medication" in northern California. My doctor says so.

let me guess. Your "doctor" was with you in that car that "fell" out of the skyvan, right? Man, weird how coincidences happen like that.

[hangdiver 1]

Snowmman says>let me guess. Your "doctor" was with you in that car that "fell" out of the skyvan, right? Man, weird how coincidences happen like that.

I would never discuss confidential info like that over the intertubes. The stories I won't tell no one would believe anyway.

Back on subject: if Cooper lost the money on his jump he isn't bragging to anyone about it. I can only imagine some guy bragging he's Cooper then has to admit he lost the money. That's not going to happen.

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[skyjack71 0]

I have seached the old thread and cannot find anything about Carr mentioning the bag having leather handles or a closure. Yet, for some reason we think he said this - maybe on a TV program?

One would think if Cooper asked for a knapsack - they were aware he required something to help him transport the money. I would think if the money was delivered in a bag with only a drawstring as Himmelsbach has said - this would have made Cooper angry - did they really want to make him MAD with a bomb and a plane full of people.

Was Himmelsbach actually at the airport when the money was delivered? Perhaps another agent made a different arrangement for the container prior to delivering it to the plane, because a witness on the plane claimed to have seen the bag when the money was delivered and was explicit in its description.

I find it odd they would have even actually have considered delivering the money in an open fabric bag...did someone hold on to the bag in transport to the airport? If you think about this - the idea of an open end bag is ridiculous and it is one of the "secrets" the FBI has kept. Although Carr DID not state this - I know for a fact (having talked to individuals who were on the plane before and after) the money delivery - there are things that have never been told...this is definitely one of them. Witnesses 38 yrs ago where instructed what to say and not say...but 38 yrs is a long time to hold onto a lie - or to remember what you were instructed to not say.

The idea of delivering an open end bag to Cooper could have caused Cooper to go into a state of rage. Therefore if the money left the bank in a open end bag - when it was carried on to that plane it WAS inside of a different kind of container. Someone did not want Cooper to get upset and ignite a fuse.

I will bet my on that and the only ones who will change my opinion are Tina and Florence (since they saw him put his hand in the bag and remove some money to offer up as a tip, because the airlines didn't pay them well enough). There were others who saw that bag. Others crew members and passengers who looked back because they had not been allowed to disembark for sometime. They were restless and curious.

I do believe that Ckret screwed up and mentioned this to someone in a private email - and do not feel it was just a figment of our imaginations. If NOT, Cooper was an illusionalist - because he is still doing it (creating information where there is none).
Even I am beginning to believe Cooper was still on the plane - he made himself disappear. POOF!

Hangdiver: by vested I mean having yrs of research tied up and having spent their own monies for this research - this done not mean vested for profit or publicity.

I was trying to stay out of the forum so you guys can breath - that is why I PM ed you about the article - I had seen it or another version sometime ago. Read both threads and you will find that we have discussed the "in Plane Site" theory. That article seemed a little more detailed than what I read in the past.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

hangdiver said "I can only imagine some guy bragging he's Cooper then has to admit he lost the money. "

McNally apparently lost his money on the jump. It was in a bag, unclear if attached to him

It was in a bag with two pouches inside the bag. Apparently the bag didn't burst on landing. $502,000
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ccUMAAAAIBAJ&sjid=SWEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5220,716744&dq=hijack+money+found&hl=en


I mentioned the air speed from the court case on this one. In that news article, the pilot says he showed the hijacker an indicator that gave a speed about 70mph slower than the actual speed of 320 mph (hard to believe, wouldn't any indicator show knots instead?) Maybe he's saying the indicator read 250 knots which aligns with the court case.

It's funny there, they say "almost surely cause anyone parachuting from the craft to black out when he was hit by the plane's jetstream" (the pilot said this..how would he know?)

McNally landed okay, made it back across state lines, (indiana to michigan) was arrested though. Had some injuries.

McNally was the 10th since 11/24/71 that demanded chute+money (not all got it or jumped). 28 years old.

McNally demanded and was given instruction on how to operate the parachutes. I believe an undercover FBI guy was one of the two who showed him out to work it.

(edit) Jo: I posted above about the bag fiasco. SafecrackingPLF created the myth.

[georger 244]

Quote

SafecrackingPLF introduced the idea of handles.
I believe there is no post where Ckret mentioned handles.
I have searched.

here's what Ckret said on Nov 28,2007 (note that it's the locked thread)
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3029831;search_string=zipper;#3029831

Seafirst security packaged the money (all of the serial numbers on the bills had been prerecorded by Seafirst) into a white cloth bag with no zipper or draw string.

here's where I believe SafecrackingPLF misquoted
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3149616;search_string=handles;#3149616

SafecrackingPLF posts: Ckret specifically said "handles with no zipper"

I always cut and past whenever I quote someone, especially if I use double quotes. Note SafecrackingPLF paraphrased, and used double quotes. I think he introduced myth.

Probably because he was brainwashed by the mistress.
Or? was there more to the misdirection?

(edit) we also know the site search index was rebuilt about a year ago or so. So even if Ckret editted in "handle" we should be able to hit it with a search (there was a search issue on editted stuff a while back. not sure if still there)

Except for Safe seeming sure Ckret said "handles"
your account is what I have always had, although
the idea of a bank security team packing money in an open bag without so much as a drawstring seems odd to me - especially when they definately had and used canvas-leather lockable satchels.

Maybe the fancy containers were reserved for hijackers asking a million or more?

[snowmman 3]

The world is indeed full of strange people.

Read the details on David J. Hanley (he did run for president afterwards)

The vehicle was a 1971 Cadillac Eldorado convertible. Did it belong to Cooper? Elvis? Hangdiver?
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Pb0MAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gV8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6571,1069060&dq=mcnally+injured+hijacking&hl=en

(edit) Answer: it belonged to Duane Weber.

[snowmman 3]

"In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity."
--Hunter S. Thompson


"The idea that no solution exists never occurs to them,
and in this lies their strength."
--Renan


"No amount of study compares with actual play for learning a game."
--Albert Morehead, `How to Become a Good Poker Player`


"The first duty of a revolutionary is to get away with it."
--Abbie Hoffman


"The revolution as myth is the definitive revolution"
--Albert Camus


"When you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose."
--Robert Zimmerman


Alice: "Yes, but where do I begin?"
Cheshire Cat: "Why, my dear, you begin at the beginning."

[skyjack71 0]

Quoted with emphasis on certain phrases:
"In order to obtain the $200,000 in cash, arrangements were made with Seattle First National Bank, through its airport branch. The money was taken from the vault of the bank's downtown facility, and transported to the airport by bank personnel and the Seattle police. The release of cash funds after normal banking hours resulted in a debit to plaintiff's account which was repaid by a transfer credit on the next banking day.

Mr. William C. Grinnell, an officer of Seattle First National Bank, arrived at the Seattle airport at approximately 5 p.m. with the money. He first proceeded to the airport branch of the bank to pick up the branch manager, who then accompanied Mr. Grinnell to plaintiff's air freight terminal, a 'premises' of plaintiff insured within the meaning of the subject insurance policy. An authorized official of plaintiff gave a receipt for the $200,000 while it was Inside the terminal. Mr. Grinnell transferred possession of the $200,000 to Captain Elwood M. Lee, a Northwest [303 Minn. 19] official designated to transport the money to the hijacked airplane, which had landed at the Seattle airport and was parked at the end of a runway. Captain Lee proceeded to the airplane in an automobile and delivered the money to Stewardess Tina Larson, who carried the money into the airplane and surrendered direct physical custody of it to the hijacker. Upon receipt thereof, Cooper allowed the passengers to leave the airplane. Stewardess Larson also delivered the parachutes and other items to Cooper, who was still in the rear cabin of the aircraft. At that time, he allowed two other stewardesses to leave the airplane. Cooper, Stewardess Larson, and the cockpit crew of three men remained on board".


This is also quoted but I don't remember who the original contributor was:

"Cooper made an inspection of the chutes when Tina was present. As well as the money and the bag the money came in. He made his concerns clear to Tina about the money bag. He checked the money and made statements about that. He stated several times, "no funny stuff," providing nonfunctioning equipment would be funy stuff. Reason dictates that if he new the reserve was a dummy he would have said something about that as well."

This statement could have a LOT of meaning and hold secrets that have never been told. What if? Tina offer up another container that could have held "most" of the money after he tried to use one of the reserves for a container. Perhaps something that belonged to one of the passengers as they were not allowed to take possession of anything they left in the aft cabin - the container she borrowed may have had a book in it or two ...or he just took the books because he had touched them..

This explaines something I was told about a passenger complaining about some books missing. She supposedly contacted one of the media in the last few yrs, but I was unable to find any information on this person...or to verify the story. The person who told me the story was reliable, but didn't know the source himself...just something said to him after one of the media incidents in the last few yrs.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 244]

Quote

Quoted with emphasis on certain phrases:
"In order to obtain the $200,000 in cash, arrangements were made with Seattle First National Bank, through its airport branch. The money was taken from the vault of the bank's downtown facility, and transported to the airport by bank personnel and the Seattle police. The release of cash funds after normal banking hours resulted in a debit to plaintiff's account which was repaid by a transfer credit on the next banking day.

Mr. William C. Grinnell, an officer of Seattle First National Bank, arrived at the Seattle airport at approximately 5 p.m. with the money. He first proceeded to the airport branch of the bank to pick up the branch manager, who then accompanied Mr. Grinnell to plaintiff's air freight terminal, a 'premises' of plaintiff insured within the meaning of the subject insurance policy. An authorized official of plaintiff gave a receipt for the $200,000 while it was Inside the terminal. Mr. Grinnell transferred possession of the $200,000 to Captain Elwood M. Lee, a Northwest [303 Minn. 19] official designated to transport the money to the hijacked airplane, which had landed at the Seattle airport and was parked at the end of a runway. Captain Lee proceeded to the airplane in an automobile and delivered the money to Stewardess Tina Larson, who carried the money into the airplane and surrendered direct physical custody of it to the hijacker. Upon receipt thereof, Cooper allowed the passengers to leave the airplane. Stewardess Larson also delivered the parachutes and other items to Cooper, who was still in the rear cabin of the aircraft. At that time, he allowed two other stewardesses to leave the airplane. Cooper, Stewardess Larson, and the cockpit crew of three men remained on board".


This is also quoted but I don't remember who the original contributor was:

Im familiar with that document. I have a copy myself. But it still doesnt shed light on the nature
of the container, or containers.
Perhaps Cooper stuffed money in his pockets and
emptied his brief case and used that also after
Tina left - nobody knows.

I do think its a little funny that the auhor of the above calls Tina, Tina Larsen, not Mucklow. That
seems to date the article as post-facto.

The nature of the container could have implications
for money float time and travel, preservation. If
the container had handles then a snag-and-hold
scenario becomes more plausable. And if its a Brinks type heavy canvas & leather satchel, that
is a very secure environment - very durable with
useful chemical markers ...

I just dont know.

[snowmman 3]

georger, it's not an article. It's a court case. The text is from a court document.
see my original post.
It's from when Northwest was trying to get the insurance company to cover the $200,000.

[377 22]

So typical of insurance companies to fight over coverage.

They take your premiums eagerly and without question, but come time to pay a claim the mood changes dramatically. Papers are scrutinized, loopholes take center stage.

"we are denying coverage on the claim of $200,000.00 based on exclusion 456778.3c: crimes committed by Duane Weber. We remind you that you declined to purchase the mastermind criminal coverage extension."

"as for the aircraft damage claim, we are denying coverage. The damage caused to the rear stairs was pilot error, failure to retract. We remind you that damage to the insured "vehicle" caused by owner operator negligence is excluded under the General Commercial Liability policy you purchased."

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[SKYWHUFFO 1]

Does anyone know what was being refered to when saying "other items"? Were they refering to the meals he ordered to be brought for the crew?

Also there were two other stewardress that were released. Has anyone ever spoke to or seen any info from these two regarding the case? I don't think i have ever seen their names but once and i don't even remember them. I have never seen this info angle presented and have often wondered what the other two saw. They had to at least see Cooper when they were leaving the plane because they would have been clued into what was going on by the other crew. OR was this the time he was taking a dump in the lavatory. Hope sombody can answer these i have often wandered.

[snowmman 3]

that account of the $17 million theft I posted had one interesting thing. some of the money was buried in a duffel and it rained..woman couldn't find it at first so it got wet.

they described the money as all clumped together as a result.

Since it had only been a few days, they put it in a dryer with some poker chips, and it separated okay.

But the idea that wet money sticks together easily.

Those 3 bundles could easily have stuck together over time. No need for the bag ever to be present near or on Tena Bar.

The only reason people introduce the bag, is because they think that helps explain a transport to Tena Bar theory...

And Jo thinks that there's a reasonable explanation for how a random book she has, belonged to Tina, and travelled from the plane, thru the air, to the ground and back to Florida. Along with the bag (not the money), and a ticket and parking stub. Which of course had to be saved.

I always write the parking garage location on my parking stubs, otherwise I can't find my car. It makes sense that Duane would have drawn a treasure map for where he buried the money, on that parking stub.

Too bad Jo threw it out. I bet it had Larch Mtn. on it.

[Orange1 0]

old thread is only locked for posting, not for reading. I believe someone has a link to it on the first page of this thread.

I saw one of Jo's posts start with "i searched the old thread..." .. i might discount that if i were you - as Jo has claimed time and again that she is no good at searching these forums...

anyway good luck. you might chuckle a bit when you see someone called Orange1 who was very helpful to the OP earlier on in that thread. also read some of the other stuff - awsee (brenda) on mayfield, and some other stuff from a couple of guys you may recognise from other cooper threads.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I saw one of Jo's posts start with "i searched the old thread..." .. i might discount that if i were you - as Jo has claimed time and again that she is no good at searching these forums...

it's not possible to do thread-specific searches on this forum, right?

So I don't know why someone would say "I searched the old thread"

You can search, limiting by certain things. But to a specific thread, I think not?

Am I missing something?

[hangdiver 1]

I can see Cooper after Tina turns the money down, just chucking it out the rear door. It is amazing to me that the bank or FBI didn't photograph the money with the bag before it was delivered. There are so few facts on this case I tend to agree with your assessment that the investigation, if you can call it that, was weak from the beginning.

>I always write the parking garage location on my parking stubs, otherwise I can't find my car. It makes sense that Duane would have drawn a treasure map for where he buried the money, on that parking stub.

I lost my car at Sky Harbor after leaving it there for a week. It was dark and I couldn't remember if it was in the east or west lot. I also lost my truck at Sacramento once when they were doing construction. The lot was gravel with no reference signs. Something I didn't know is that security drives through the parking lots and takes pictures of all the license plates. They put it in a data base and can locate your vehicle for you if you can't remember where you parked. Unfortunately my truck has a lift so the camera was to low to record the license plate so it wasn't recorded. Eventually found them both, embarrassing.

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[snowmman 3]

hangdiver said "It is amazing to me that the bank or FBI didn't photograph the money with the bag before it was delivered."

I always laugh to myself, when people want to say Cooper was incompetent.

He may have lacked some skills, but comparing him to everyone else that night, he did okay.

Hey I was just reading an mag article telling a story that mentioned a Cessna crashing in Wyoming, at 11,000 ft..clipped some trees. (they were looking at the ground, didn't notice they were about to run into a mtn..last minute tried to pullup, but didn't make it)... The woman pilot and a guy, they just had sneakers and light down jackets and it was cold. Snow on the ground. They walked out 20 miles in 24 hours...The guy was hoping to learn out to fly from the woman. I'm not sure that plan continued afterwards...:)
Ended with a hitchhike from a delivery truck.

They hadn't filed a flight plan and they knew no one was going to find them, so they had to walk out.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Quote

I saw one of Jo's posts start with "i searched the old thread..." .. i might discount that if i were you - as Jo has claimed time and again that she is no good at searching these forums...

it's not possible to do thread-specific searches on this forum, right?

So I don't know why someone would say "I searched the old thread"

You can search, limiting by certain things. But to a specific thread, I think not?

Am I missing something?

PICK PICK PIKE! I have learned to search but, don't like that it only produces just the title, date and thread the post was in.

I did word and phrase searches on the complete forum choosing on post by Ckret and was looking only for dates prior to the date this thread began.
That is how I searched - I also have a HARD COPY of that first thread. After I located the discussion I went to the hard copy.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

jo said "I also have a HARD COPY of that first thread. After I located the discussion I went to the hard copy."

I think you should print a hard copy of this thread.
Along with all the attachments and links.

Poof happens.

[skyjack71 0]

The money was transferred to another container inside of the plane - after Cooper expressed concern to Tina about the type of container provided. Multiple containers use for carry on had been left by the passengers and crew who had disembarked.

The passengers could not go to the Aft overhead to collect their belonging - these would supposedly be returned to them later. I have heard of some individuals who claimed they are missing items that were NOT returned to them or their relatives. Since not all got their belongings right away it was due to the collection of evidence - but some never got all of their belongings. Among those items missing I believe you will find two books...and a suitable container. Cooper did not go to all that trouble to jump with a package he might loose. The Captain is reported as stating he saw Cooper packing the money in what he thought was one of the front packs. He may have saw that and Cooper may have been agitated. If Tina nor the Captain provided the container then Cooper just helped himself to a container stored in those Aft overheads.

The stewardesses may have collected some of the objects in the overhead and took them forward. I expect Cooper did not allow passengers to disembark until he was provided with another container - but he was not going to give the FBI a chance to get onto that plane.

I told this to Carr and prior agents but NOT anyone of them would listen to me. They were not allowed to contact the crew because it had been agreed not to ask them any questions. WHY would a FBI agent NOT be allowed to talk to a witness when new information is introduced regarding a new suspect.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

jo said "I also have a HARD COPY of that first thread. After I located the discussion I went to the hard copy."

I think you should print a hard copy of this thread.
Along with all the attachments and links.

Poof happens.

It is too large, but is there not another way to save it - such as to a disk. If the the FBI has their way - my last post might make this thread POOF!

I have been trying to find the person who claimed some books belonging to a relative where never returned. The FBI knows who they are, but they don't want anyone to know this - just collateral damage - like the cigarrette butts.

TRY talking to the FBI - they do NOT give a damn!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Jo said "The Captain is reported as stating he saw Cooper packing the money in what he thought was one of the front packs"

I think you're doing the SafecrackingPLF thing and posting your own version of something.

Post the reference and source. I don't believe that's what Scott said.

in any case, I suspect the reference you're talking about, is a reporter, interpreting what Scott said.

Can you post the reference?

(edit) Re the FBI. I have no more complaints about the FBI since they instituted daily status meetings with the CSG, for which I'm thankful. These reports are available at the second level of CSG membership.

[snowmman 3]

If Cooper had been drinking a Coors light, I wonder why that would be hidden from us?

[377 22]

Quote

If Cooper had been drinking a Coors light, I wonder why that would be hidden from us?

Coors Light debuted in 1978. Can you imagine the chaos that would have resulted if the FBI revealed that DBC came from the future?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.