DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

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As for how government function re COs in the 40s:

Edited to make this brief

You'll note that there is no mention of imprisonment at all. COs were imprisoned in WW1, but only if they absolutely refused to serve in any non-combatant roles, and anyway that was well before the 40s. A history of COs in the US as well as the various punishments etc along the way can be found here:

Orange do you really believe everything you read - propaganda?

Here ARE some facts as provide in historical documentations from one of the researchers.

A Private Henry P. Weber born in 1918, a shipyard foreman in Vancouver, WA at the time the was drafted - was sentenced to death by hanging in a court martial trial for refusing to bear arms. The trial was held in 1945 at Camp Roberts, CA and his sentence was eventually reduced first to 20 yr and later down to 5 yrs in Leavenworth. He had son Wayne Weber born in 1941 or 1942.

This Weber was NO relation to Duane that we know of. Our government would like to keep these things like this buried
forever and be done with it. Who knows, as secret as Duane's family was, - maybe it was a relative - but the genealogy shows no connection.

Just a piece of trivia information found in our search ...FACTS ARE FACTS and I am currently a personal victim of our Government's aggressive actions to reform and redistribution of funds. They want about a 1/3 of my SS check - with NO explanation or proof of reason.
Just send you a letter before they sent your check and tell you that you owe Thousands of dollar to them and you can request a waiver and explanation of proof - which take about 90 days, In the mean time seniors die of stress and or commit suicide.

Most of these Seniors are barely making it now,

No, Jo, I don't believe everything I read, otherwise I would believe Duane was Weber. All the stuff in that Wiki article is referenced. Can you give a proper source for your story - for if it is true, then it should be added to the Wiki article.

Oh, and if you really believe that Wikipedia is propoganda for the FBI, or US govt, or whoever, then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. And I am sorry for all your hassles about your social security, but that has nothing to do with this case - other than providing a reason to show that you have a grudge against the government.
Other countries don't even get social security, or not enough to live on. Why on earth do you think the Chinese save so much???

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

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Now the real redneck test will be how long the garden hose stays in place..

MY old neighbor Ray, the 400 lb diabetic tough talking CBer, had a fuse box (not circuit breakers) on an outbuilding. He had a rubber wrapped (cut up inner tube and friction tape) Vise Grip pliers clamping together two ends of a 220 volt feedline. It was protected from rain by the eaves of the shack but stayed there for years and was still there when we moved away.

That's as good as the garden hose dont you think?

You should have seen some of the jury rigged parachute gear I saw in the late 60s. Redneck rigging I guess,

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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I only listen to people that are growing potatoes. You grow potatoes: you got your head on straight.

When digging for a drip irrigation system a few years back I discovered a lot of small golden potatoes under the earth in my front yard. Turned out my young daughter had "planted" some that she took from the kitchen.

She was very disappointed that we didnt get a "potato plant" which in her mind was an above ground bush with potatoes hanging on it as fruit.

We ate the potatoes and they were delicious. She had succeeded but her success was concealed underground. She was very proud that she had grown "tasty potatoes". She is 17 now but does have her head on straight. Must have been the potato farming that did it.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Hmm. potato stories...now you got me thinking.

I was in Mexico when I was younger, and we were walking through these small towns in the mountains with packs. Kind of off the tourist trail. Lots of small kids in the towns running around.

One night we spent the night in some field, and we heard some voices outside our tents. We were always worried about getting robbed, but then I hear my friend jabbering in Spanish to a bunch of kids in the dark.

They ran off and we weren't sure what was going on, imagining the worst, but they came back with an armful of sticks and potatoes they dug up in the local fields. They quickly built a fire and roasted potatoes for us. Now that was fun..squatting around the fire, eating potatoes with some local kids.

[georger 244]

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As for how government function re COs in the 40s:

Edited to make this brief

You'll note that there is no mention of imprisonment at all. COs were imprisoned in WW1, but only if they absolutely refused to serve in any non-combatant roles, and anyway that was well before the 40s. A history of COs in the US as well as the various punishments etc along the way can be found here:

Orange do you really believe everything you read - propaganda?

Here ARE some facts as provide in historical documentations from one of the researchers.

A Private Henry P. Weber born in 1918, a shipyard foreman in Vancouver, WA at the time the was drafted - was sentenced to death by hanging in a court martial trial for refusing to bear arms. The trial was held in 1945 at Camp Roberts, CA and his sentence was eventually reduced first to 20 yr and later down to 5 yrs in Leavenworth. He had son Wayne Weber born in 1941 or 1942.

This Weber was NO relation to Duane that we know of. Our government would like to keep these things like this buried
forever and be done with it. Who knows, as secret as Duane's family was, - maybe it was a relative - but the genealogy shows no connection.

Just a piece of trivia information found in our search ...FACTS ARE FACTS and I am currently a personal victim of our Government's aggressive actions to reform and redistribution of funds. They want about a 1/3 of my SS check - with NO explanation or proof of reason.
Just send you a letter before they sent your check and tell you that you owe Thousands of dollar to them and you can request a waiver and explanation of proof - which take about 90 days, In the mean time seniors die of stress and or commit suicide.

Most of these Seniors are barely making it now,

No, Jo, I don't believe everything I read, otherwise I would believe Duane was Weber. All the stuff in that Wiki article is referenced. Can you give a proper source for your story - for if it is true, then it should be added to the Wiki article.

Oh, and if you really believe that Wikipedia is propoganda for the FBI, or US govt, or whoever, then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. And I am sorry for all your hassles about your social security, but that has nothing to do with this case - other than providing a reason to show that you have a grudge against the government.
Other countries don't even get social security, or not enough to live on. Why on earth do you think the Chinese save so much???

Is anyone still discussing DB Cooper here?

[snowmman 3]

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Is anyone still discussing DB Cooper here?

?? are you saying we're off topic?

We're discussing whether Cooper dug up potatoes from the Fazio's farm and roasted them on a fire made from twenty dollar bills on Tena bar.

Galen Cook suggested that it was the most likely way Cooper survived the night after the fireball.

[377 22]

Would you like some fries with that Bourbon sir?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Frito-Lay has a big manufacturing plant in Vancouver, WA for potato chips and other potato-based snacks.

Manufactures and distributes for most of the Northwest region, western Canada and sole provider to Alaska.

So that means: if Sarah Palin eats Frito-Lay potato chips, they most likely come from Vancouver, WA.

(edit) Their Modesto, CA plant covers most of the stuff shipped overseas to military bases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frito-Lay

[377 22]

Sara P just eats salmon and bear that she kills herself.

Vegtables are for liberals.

She can see Pluto from her kitchen window.

Sara should have held on to the governor's seat for a few more months or at least until that deadbeat dad Levi got caught up on child support payments for Bristol's love child.

She used to deploy AK state troopers to do her bidding. Now all she can do is complain to Oprah.

Watch for a book titled The Lies of Sara Palin, coming soon to a bookstore near you.

Snow did you know that unstable pitch oscillation in freefall is uniformly referred to as "potato chipping"?


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=potato%20chipping&sb=score&mh=25

Duane may have tumbled a few time after leaving the 727, but once he got stable there was no potato chipping. No way. Rangers do not potato chip.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[hangdiver 1]

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really? I want to plant potatoes. what kind?

Yep, Reddale, Red Cloud, Gold Rose and Butte.

There's many ways to plant them. I think we've decided on the method.

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Is anyone still discussing DB Cooper here?

Ya, he's here somewhere, probably find his gear in an old potato patch.

Really just growing ammo for the old potato gun. I hope they're the right caliber.

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[snowmman 3]

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Really just growing ammo for the old potato gun. I hope they're the right caliber.

377: these guys just want to get me going.
First we're competing with bars. Now hangdiver wants to talk pneumatic cannons.

When you set out to build the world's smallest atomic cannon, go air pneumatic for propulsion.

http://www.avalanchemitigationservices.com/
http://www.avalanchemitigationservices.com/photos.htm

Monty Atwater was doing it back in 1962

Evidently the first design was for a pitching machine? By Frank Parsoneault who worked at Douglas Aircraft.

377 will appreciate the seminal Parsoneault patent in 1959
http://www.google.com/patents?id=ZktUAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false
"Baseball Pitching and Fielding Practice Device"

also see
http://www.avalanchemitigationservices.com/images/evolution.pdf

[snowmman 3]

In case anyone didn't catch why this was on-topic,

Parsoneault's pitching device was called the "Fireball" machine.

Really. You can see multiple references to it's name here

http://www.google.com/search?q=Parsoneault+fireball+machine&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[377 22]

I like this cannon stuff Snow.

My son tells me in the farm areas surrounding Beijing, the govt has supplied many farmers with skyward pointing artillery cannons, welded so that they can't shoot anywhere but up. The farmers get standby pay and cell phones so that on govt command, they can fire silver iodide shells into clouds. Supposedly this gives nucleation sites for water vapor to condense on and rain begins to fall from moisture laden clouds.

I have a book called Silent Siege that documents Japanese attacks on the West Coast of the US during WW 2. We had many coastal artillery sites all over the West Coast including some major ones near the Golden Gate. You can still see the bunker sites at Ft Baker and Ft Funston.

Speaking of fireballs in the Pacific NW, some of the Japanese FUGA incendiary balloons did make it to the US but failed to cause major conflagrations.

I wish Galen would just come out with what he is getting at with the fireball story.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 244]

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Would you like some fries with that Bourbon sir?

377

attached -

[BruceSmith 3]

I hear your plea for information, 377, and here is what I've got:


Galen and I have exchanged a few phone calls and emails over the past few days about the fiery object.

Here is my understanding of what Galen has discovered:

Galen has some copies of Richard Tosaw’s interview notes from the 1980s. Galen and Tosaw spent some time together at Tina’s Beach over the past few years and developed a strong collegial relationship, so Galen was contacted after Tosaw’s death a few months ago and asked if he wanted some of the paperwork that had been bundled up.

In those papers were copies of Tosaw’s interviews with the couple who saw the fire ball. The couple lived in a suburban development off of Mill Plain Rd in the Vancouver. They had seen TV coverage of the skyjacking at 6 pm, so they were familiar with what was on-going.

At about 8 pm they left their house and saw a low-flying plane to the west, heading south. They immediately saw a brightly glowing red object in the sky directly underneath the plane. It was so bright it illuminated the aircraft.

The object then burst into a glowing, fiery object and arced away to the west and then faded out. It was lit for about 5-7 seconds, 8 tops.

“That must be DB Cooper’s plane,” the wife shouted.

The next day the couple wrote the FBI and described what they had seen.

Several days later they were visited by two men. One gentleman stayed in the car and the other, who was wearing a suit and dark coat, approached the house. He identified himself as an FBI agent but he never showed his badge or any other identification. He asked for the couple who had written the letter, and the wife confirmed that it was she who had contacted the FBI.

She reported to Tosaw that the “FBI” guy then got real nasty and intimidating, and told the couple to never tell anyone, to “Keep your f…g mouths shut.”

They did, and never told anyone until Richard Tosaw was on his book tour in the1980s, pitching his tome on DB Cooper. The couple saw him on TV and they contacted the TV station, and told them that they had very important information for Tosaw. The TV station facilitated the contact and Tosaw met with the couple shortly thereafter.

Tosaw, apparently, never revealed to anyone that he had had this contact, and his reasons for doing so are unknown. He never told Galen when they met at Tina’s Beach.

When Galen received these notes, which are copies of the originals apparently, he was recently able to contact the wife and husband, who are now divorced but still living in the Vancouver, WA area.

Galen says their story checks out identically to what he read in Tosaw’s report.

Galen says he contacted Sluggo because he is not able to post directly in the DZ. Galen wants this story to get out and “stir the pot, ” hoping that some kind of confirming data will come forward, or shake the FBI loose a bit, particularly Himmelsback, and get to the real story.

From my point of view, it’s time Himms decides to fish or cut bait. He needs to weigh-in on this data and all the other inconsistencies that have been presented. Did the fiery object episode happen? Did he know about it? Were there other witnesses? Or, is this the statement of a wannabe? If so, how does a wannabe keep such a tight memory going?

It’s been almost thirty years.

C’mon, Ralph. Talk to us. Engage us in a dialogue.

You, too, Russ.

[snowmman 3]

How did the fireball transition from drifting to lit for maybe a couple seconds?

Why did galen say this:

"The reddish object drifted west, out towards the Columbia River in the vicinity of Sauvie Island. In a matter of seconds, it disappeared from view of the witnesses. "

now Bruce has it as bursting and arcing away:

"The object then burst into a glowing, fiery object and arced away to the west and then faded out. It was lit for about 5-7 seconds, 8 tops."

Galen modified it to drifting, and the "seconds" was due to loss of view. Was there loss of view or is Galen just modifying the story to his liking? There is no loss of view in Bruce's telling.


And why did they decide it was Cooper's plane? Why would a red fireball say "Cooper's plane" that night?

They wouldn't have known anything about Cooper's bomb or ??? at that time.

[377 22]

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At about 8 pm they left their house and saw a low-flying plane to the west, heading south. They immediately saw a brightly glowing red object in the sky directly underneath the plane. It was so bright it illuminated the aircraft.

The object then burst into a glowing, fiery object and arced away to the west and then faded out. It was lit for about 5-7 seconds, 8 tops.

Couldn't this description be consistent with a ground launched rocket flare? I don't see why it necessarily came from the plane. The claimed illumination of the plane from below sounds a lot more like what you'd see from a ground launched flare. They make some pretty big ones for commercial marine use. Some have small parachutes that extend their time in the air.

The attempted suppression/intimidation of the witnesses makes no sense to me.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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At about 8 pm they left their house and saw a low-flying plane to the west, heading south. They immediately saw a brightly glowing red object in the sky directly underneath the plane. It was so bright it illuminated the aircraft.

The object then burst into a glowing, fiery object and arced away to the west and then faded out. It was lit for about 5-7 seconds, 8 tops.

Couldn't this description be consistent with a ground launched rocket flare? I don't see why it necessarily came from the plane. The claimed illumination of the plane from below sounds a lot more like what you'd see from a ground launched flare. They make some pretty big ones for commercial marine use. Some have small parachutes that extend their time in the air.

The attempted suppression/intimidation of the witnesses makes no sense to me.

377

I think it was more likely the rotating red anti-collision lights on 727s (don't know about other planes) in use back then.

If I was talking to the witness, I would ask if they also saw red or white anti-collision lights.

The only correct answer would be red-rotating for 727 then.
If they said white, or blinking or none, then they'd be wrong. (727 switched later)

In fog, clouds, low...the anti-collision lights were probably on (aren't they usually on all the time nowadays?). Heck, in the clouds, low over PDX, maybe they flipped on their landing lights so others could see them?


Before you go down the flare path, you have to eliminate the most likely thing: misinterpretation of other red lights that were guaranteed to be in the sky that night.

Isn't that obvious? How come no one jumped on that when I posted about the 727 anti-collision lights (red-rotating in 1971)

727 trivia:
Apparently all the switches on the overhead panel on a 727 were forward ON, and backward OFF.

But TWA 727s had the switches reversed: forward OFF.

verification here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=twa+727+switches+reversed&rls=com.microsoft:*&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

What kind of fool at TWA thought that made sense? (to be different)

Pilots always got confused, i.e.
"BTW...Did you know that the old TWA 727s that I've flown all have the cockpit switches reversed...opposite of the way Boeing had them? TWA actually called Boeing and all the switches in the cockpit are all "up for on, down for off" even if that wasn't the way they were designed. It's frigging crazy when we are cleared for landing...we're always turning all the lights off and then having to turn them back on...the habit of pushing all the switches forward...or "down"...freaking TWA..."

[377 22]

I am very familiar with those red anti collision lights. They were made by Grimes. Most had incandecent light bulbs and a motor driven mirror rotation mechanism. I helped repair one once. They werent all that bright compared to xenon strobes. I don't think the alleged witness description matches what you'd see if looking at that light from thousands of feet away.

A hand launched rocket flare could illuminate the cloud bottoms if close enough and that could be misinterpretted as illuminating the plane. Anything dropped from the plane wouldnt have enough dwell time near the plane to illuminate it in my opinion. It would fall below and behind very rapidly.

Can't you see some guys, maybe fishermen or boaters who have marine flares, listening to to Norjack unfolding on the news and just deciding to pop one off towards what they think might be Cooper's plane?

An ignited road flare tossed out the ventral door of a 727 would not significantly illuminate the plane in my opinion. Those sulphur based road flares arent all that bright either. I think it would look like a red point source if seen from thousands of feet away... more like a Christmas tree light than a "brightly glowing red object."

Himmelsbach may have ignored the story as crackpot. The MIB/FBI witness intimidation story sounds really sketchy to me. There is no logic to it.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Farflung 0]

Tosaw has some file in his estate which retells the account of Mr and Mrs Un-named from Mill Plain Rd (Main St), Vancouver, WA where they observe some light source (unknown type) fall or drift or float (unknown mode) from a south bound (known direction), jet (not turbo or recip) aircraft. Yet Tosaw did not publish this report. Why?

Then Mr and Mrs Name-withheld contact the FBI (not police or sheriff) where a suspicious vehicle arrives and one person stays inside (Won the coin toss) while another (who shows NO ID, even though they just called the FBI) knocks on the door (didn't ring bell) and listens to the intelligent, logical and un-emotive occurrences form the night previous.

The wife describes in painful detail (like her Elvis sightings) exactly what was observed after the 6 o'clock news and 3 tall boys. After explaining how she has made hundreds of reports to the FBI, CIA and National Enquirer but her victim-esque observations are always suppressed by these Fascist, bully boys, the 'agent' becomes upset (without reason) and tells her to 'Shut the FU&* UP.'

This screams the end of the world as we know it, yet I feel........

[snowmman 3]

I was thinking we could mix a couple of expertises here.

Tom Kaye has the experience of how to make an air cannon device into an automatic..i.e. AutoMag paintball guns. Same issue.

Just need to scale it up to larger diameter projectiles, larger air tanks.

Then, mount like 20 of them on each wing of a 727.

Then, change the projectile to be t-shirts.

So then airtwardo does a skydiving demo, followed by the 727 which does a strafing run of thousands of t-shirts into the crowd.

Hmm..maybe airtwardo can jump out of the back of the 727 while that's happening..Except marketing says we have to put a cannon out of the back of the plane, and claim airtwardo gets shot out of the plane like a human cannonball.

You know the guy who has the record for the human cannonball (like 150'..going 70 mph estimated)...he's still doing it, saw a video of him on youtube being shot out, and he's 66.

Maybe airtwardo can do a ground demo. You get shot out of a cannon to maybe 300' vertical, and then deploy in time to land? Can that be done? Can you do it wearing a captain america outfit? Or a DB Cooper outfit? It would allow indoor skydiving demos in stadiums with closed roofs. Plus you could have cheerleader girls around the cannon and smoke and stuff.

[snowmman 3]

377 said "I don't think the alleged witness description matches what you'd see if looking at that light from thousands of feet away."

So you're saying that anti-collision lights only worked when you about to plow into the plane and said "ah shit!"

What distance were they supposed to be visible at? I thought they were more than just ground anti-collision? (because they had them on in the air)

Wouldn't they be visible at a couple miles?

[377 22]

Saw this on Snow's 727 link, (has some tech errors but the basics are true):

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A TWA 727 was flying at cruise when the captain and FO got into an interesting discussion. One of them told the other that if they dropped the flaps a unit or two, they would cruise along much faster, really "get up on it" so to speak. The second pilot replied that by selecting flaps, the leading edge devices would extend. The first pilot said not to worry, they would just pull the corresponding circuit breaker. So they did and they cruised along, pleased with themselves.

Well, the flight engineer had stepped out of the cockpit to grab some coffee or use the lav and had missed the entire conversation. He came back in and, being a good engineer, scanned his panel, then the circuit breaker panel and found the breaker that the pilots had just pulled. So, he did his job and reset the breaker.

The slats deployed and the plane immediately became uncontrollable and went into a spin. The pilots tried to recover the aircraft, but the 727 continued to lose altitude at an alarming rate. The fact that it was a T-tail made it harder to recover because as the plane dove, the fuselage was washing out the airflow over the empennage. In desperation, one of the pilots decided to try extending the landing gear and it worked. The pilots were finally able to recover the aircraft after plunging several thousand feet. They made an emergency landing and the ground crew was amazed to see that the slats had been ripped off of the wings and one of the main gear struts was turned ninety degrees.

The passengers evacuated the aircraft (with shaky knees and more than a few bumps and bruises, I imagine) and the pilots reached over...and hit the ERASE button on the flight recorder. POOF! Evidence gone.

All relevant 727 evidence is destroyed, POOFED. That's just the way it is. Jo was right.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

377 incorrectly said "An ignited road flare tossed out the ventral door of a 727 would not significantly illuminate the plane in my opinion. Those sulphur based road flares arent all that bright either. I think it would look like a red point source if seen from thousands of feet away... more like a Christmas tree light than a "brightly glowing red object."

There was a well known UFO hoax recently where some kids (they videoed the launch and revealed it after the UFO sightings made the news)

they tied road flares to weather ballons and let them go up in the sky at night. Very impressive. Lots of UFO calls.

I'll find the link

(edit) It was the Morristown UFO event
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morristown_UFO_hoax

video of the hoax setup here
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=9022371226156483716#

video of the launch here (nice if you just want to see the night launch..!)

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=8751090888158148535#

(edit) It was just last year, Monday, January 5, 2009, between 8:15 pm and 9:00 pm.

[377 22]

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Wouldn't they be visible at a couple miles?

Yes, they were visible at those distances but nowhere near as bright or attention getting as pulsed gas discharge strobes. They were like the old rotating cop car lights, but smaller.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.