DB Cooper

[JerryThomas 0]

Bruce the fazio'z were not denied access to there property. They were employed by the FBI to dig on the site with there back hoe. further more there are to different stories by the brothers each remember's the story a little diferently. Also the time factor of over 20yrs change's the story some what. Now I would recommend that each of you contact the fazio's and get the story directly from them. They enjoy talking about it.Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger. Love that sign.The ribs are doing beter. Now I know how Adam must have felt. I wonder if that was the first time the GD word was used. Better yet know wonder man and woman have such a difference of opinion. They have to live with a rib that has been ripped off.Fuel for thought.I did learn a good lesson though. If the horse's or the donkey start sounding off again. I'll be a lot more carefull of where I'm walking and falling.Jerry

[georger 244]

Quote

Geoger. Love that sign.The ribs are doing beter. Now I know how Adam must have felt. I wonder if that was the first time the GD word was used. Better yet know wonder man and woman have such a difference of opinion. They have to live with a rib that has been ripped off.Fuel for thought.I did learn a good lesson though. If the horse's or the donkey start sounding off again. I'll be a lot more carefull of where I'm walking and falling.Jerry

Been there done that. Throw some sand and cinders
out on that ice if you can ... black coal cinders will
melt ice about as fast as anything nonchemical will ...
We couldnt function without chains on the tractor
here ... especially if the horses are any distance
away and you have to haul hay and water to them
... we finally have had 3 40* days the first since
November of last year. Its been a long brutal winter here ...

[skyjack71 0]

I never heard of a cloth Brief case, but I did tell Himmelsbach and the FBI about a canvas and leather SATCHEL - but was ignored until recently after I produced a letter I wrote back in 1996. I repeatedly asked the FBI and Himmelsbach about this and was told it was NOT important ---...and now you talk about a cloth brief case?

So where did you get the idea of a Cloth Brief Case?

Also the FBI only retrieved Duane's DNA in 2003, but papers they accidentally left in the box - showed they DID NOT do any DNA testing until the last few wks of 2007 and the first month of 2008. The agent called me and asked if he had left an envelope in the box - and he need to come get it. Well, he did and I told him I would make a copy of it and send it to him, but I was keeping the original...and I DID just that.

He tried to act like it was not important - but to me it was very important and it should sound a bell to others...but it didn't.

Duane DID NOT confess on his death bed and I am sick of trying to correct this image. Yes, his kidneys where failing, but he had been in the hospital for about a wk and a half. He told me to bring his brief case to him and he presented to the DR and his nurse and the HOSPITAL Administration papers I did not know existed. Right to die and other papers - he asked the Dr. to note the DATE they were signed. This was in March of 1995 and the documents where dated 1990 Without diaylsis he expired 11 days later...with a little assistance from the staff - if you know what I mean. I did not know these documents existed as I never pryed into his affairs - and did not know the combination to his briefcase.

The combination:
It was not his birthday - how about that one!

Around the 15th of March you will probably hear some rumors in WA and by June you will here MORE and MORE and MORE.

As for the WRONG WAY - I will just ignore that one Georger. If you guys think I am wrong about Goldendale, The Dalles, Washougal, Mt. Hood and some other places - then I suggest you put your money where your mouth is.

Seems like Tom Kaye and Cousin Brucie had a serious conversation. If Kaye thought the money was buried on the SOUTH SIDE of the Columbia - maybe he needs to check areas within a hour and half of the The DALLEs. Just where did Duane Weber go that morning - leaving around 6:30 and returning sometime after check out which in those days was either 12 noon or 1.

I remembered this because I called the clerk about 15 minutes after checkout time telling her my husband had left that morning and he had not returned and I feared he may have had an accident.

She told me if he didn't return shortly to call her back and she would notify the Hwy Patrol...but that he had prepaid the room and the maid would not be in that area until after 2 PM and to feel free to stay in the room..,.that I didn't need to put our things outside.

Duane showed up within 30 minutes.....and had to clean up before he loaded the car.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 244]

Quote

You make a good point, Georger, namely to consider that the contour of the beach changed from the time of the money's deposition to its discovery.

However, I know of only two major changes. One was that the dredge spoils created their own layer on top of the existing soils of the river bank in 1974, but apparently maintaining the existing contour.

The second re-shaping occurred post-1980 when the ACE decided to place Columbia River spoils in a centralized collection area away from the shore line. Al Fazio told me that this decision caused the river bank to develop a sharp incline, which is how Tina's Beach looks these days, with an added "cliff" formation of 3-5 feet drop off at the top of the bank due to two decades of material loss.

Hence, it is my understanding that Tina's Beach today is both lower and sharper in profile than it was in the 1970s.

Al Fazio emphatically states that the money had washed-in just prior to discovery, and had been there for only a few tides.

But how does he know? He didn't learn the money had been discovered until the feds told him.

So, who to believe? Dorwin? He told me the Bedell was still dredging at Tina's Beach in 1980.

"Down to three feet," Himms?

"Tideline, but also buried a shovel blade's length down," McPheter?

"Propeller," Larry?

What's your view, G.?

Im glad you are taking what I said in stride. I was
too critical so read your work a second time and
now see where you went wrong. You could cut out
the first half and not lose a thing because the whole
work is very repetitive. The second half is better than the first half - your second half contains the real meat of everything you are trying to say -
the first half is just polemics, so trim it all down
by 1/2. Thats my opinion.

Yes. The topography at Tbar has changed. Some
say as much as 3 foot loss from after the dredge
work in '74. But the slope is not the central issue ..

If you have something buried and its finally being
exposed through top erosion, no matter when it
was deposited (71, 74, 77), stuff near the surface from that deposit is going to be washing free with
every high tide or rain, snow melt, etc. The fact
that anyone saw debris at the last high tide mark
(line) simply means there was debris already there
for its pieces to be moved around and re-positioned
on the surface in accordance with the last water event.

If this was a high tide then pieces moved to the
high tide line (just as observed). If this was rain
then pieces moved around randomly and some washed into the river with runoff. etc.

If the high tide line was above where the money
was buried, that is where you would expect to find pieces of money (at the high tide line) - which is exactly what the Fazios and others saw. That does not mean it was the tide that brought the money
in onto Tina Bar.

All the tide did was move pieces around that were
already in residence being exposed in the surface sand, from something buried deeper ...

A high tide alone cannot explain the forensics of
the money find at Tina Bar. The high tide can
explain pieces of money found along the high tide
line "if" you assume money was already in place
and was eroding out ...

If Brian had found the money in November 1979
then the last high tide prior to that would have
probably shown fragments along that high tide
mark.

Very likely this money was in place for several
years, finally exposed by erosion, fragments being washed around with some lost back into the river.
I believe at minimum, Tom will agree with that scenario.

If this scenario is true then very likely there was
more than $5800 there in the beginning, perhaps
a lot more than $5800. It all depends on how long bundles had been being exposed to the surface and were weathering away.The sum total of what Ingram and others found in Feb 1980 was more than $5800, in any event because some bills had not been separated and some fragments had not been examined.

The $5800 is based on serial numbers identified
in 1980 by the FBI. The auction company has
identified at least 15 more serial numbers only
recently. The FBI may not have all of their
fragments separated yet so there could be more
whole or partial serial numbers yet to come there. And, who knows what the insurance company bills
and fragments contain. This $5800 dollar figure
is a minimum. That is why I always address this issue with the words ... " a minumum of $5800"
because that is the literal truth of the matter.

Lastly, when you write your final draft be sure to include REFERENCES! Use footnotes throughout
your essay and credit the sources of the information
you are presenting. Include your phone conversations with various people in your list of references & credits.

Just do as you would do in rhetoric 101.100.
Cite your sources...

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger. Good idea, One problem It snows to much here this time of year remember it snows here in June. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger.Caution on The overview that Bruce has submitted. It does have room for improvement. Right Bruce. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Jo you keep submitting proof that duane was not Cooper with every Post. You just did it again.Why. Every time you post, you continue to prove that Duane was not Cooper. Your storie's, Your chalenges, Your attacks on the FBI, to include Larry. Hell! it would be different if your attacks, were only on me /georger /sluggo/377/orange,1/Just to mention a few.But no you can't do that. all you want to do is lead people into your fantasy world with made up campfire stories Or theatrical /drama /messages.Give yourself a break. I realize the only reason you do this ,is so you can find some inportance in your life. I'll be glad to give that to you and so will every one else. Call me any time we can talk about, how your kid's are doing, are your grand kid's . Share there acomplishments in life and there future. Not Made up storie's.Or future stories of how much trouble you are going to cause the FBI and non believers. The tease of your recent threats Is BS. I have personally checked it out. Youv'e done nothing but embarass yourself. So now ! what is it going to be . Jo what is the people that have already seen the new's report's and documentaries going to think about your denial that duane made a death bed coffesion after the fact that it was billed on tv and in your words also aired . Or don't you remember . Watch your News reports from your local new's station, Pensicolla Florida. Or your real estate agency. Your choice. Jerry

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Jerry,


Hear me and hear me well!

I don’t take sides, if you hate Jo and Jo hates you, that’s between the two of you. But, I have a very low tolerance for mis-quotes and threats (whether about me or anyone else).

1st the mis-quote:
Jo has denied that Duane’s statement about him being Cooper was a “death-bed” confession every since my first contact with her (in 2003). Others have used that terminology (authors, journalist, i-Net posters, etc.) but Jo has never said it. I have documentation to prove that she has attempted to curtail the use of that term.

2nd the threat:

Quote

Watch your News reports from your local new's station, Pensicolla Florida. Or your real estate agency. Your choice.

That sounds (to me) like a threat. I can’t imagine that you would threaten Jo or anyone else. So, how about taking a moment and make a clear (unambiguous) statement. Are you or are you not making a threat?


Sluggo

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[georger 244]

Jo has denied that Duane’s statement about him being Cooper was a “death-bed” confession every since my first contact with her (in 2003). Others have used that terminology (authors, journalist, i-Net posters, etc.) but Jo has never said it. I have documentation to prove that she has attempted to curtail the use of that term.

[377 22]

Quote

If you have something buried and its finally being
exposed through top erosion, no matter when it
was deposited (71, 74, 77), stuff near the surface from that deposit is going to be washing free with
every high tide or rain, snow melt, etc. The fact
that anyone saw debris at the last high tide mark
(line) simply means there was debris already there
for its pieces to be moved around and re-positioned
on the surface in accordance with the last water event.

If this was a high tide then pieces moved to the
high tide line (just as observed). If this was rain
then pieces moved around randomly and some washed into the river with runoff. etc.

If the high tide line was above where the money
was buried, that is where you would expect to find pieces of money (at the high tide line) - which is exactly what the Fazios and others saw. That does not mean it was the tide that brought the money
in onto Tina Bar.

A very thought provoking post G. I like it when people think out of the bax and question so called "expert" conclusions. Maybe all the money was there but they only excavated about $5800. Hmmmm.

I'd like to hear TK's views on the money fragment deposit scenario. Has he stopped working on Norjack or is TK just working in silence?

I think Bruce is off to a good start with is manuscript, but Cossey fed him BS about a "Paradise chute" IMHO. I've given Bruce some edits to clean up the glaring gear errors. If Bruce wants to get the maximum chance of publisher acceptance he should leave out the CIA MK Ultra stuff, at least on the initial submission. The SOG stuff is OK.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Did you all see the video posted in the "WWII airborne" thread in this forum?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[quade 4]

Quote

Why is this woman consuming so much of the world's time?

Mr. Pot . . . Mrs. Kettle.

The entire topic is a waste of time yet there are a number of people involved. Why? Because it's what they do.

You will no more find the answers in this thread than on a Ouija board. In fact, you might find better answers on a Ouija board, but that's not going to stop the people involved from continuing to post here.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

If you have something buried and its finally being
exposed through top erosion, no matter when it
was deposited (71, 74, 77), stuff near the surface from that deposit is going to be washing free with
every high tide or rain, snow melt, etc. The fact
that anyone saw debris at the last high tide mark
(line) simply means there was debris already there
for its pieces to be moved around and re-positioned
on the surface in accordance with the last water event.

If this was a high tide then pieces moved to the
high tide line (just as observed). If this was rain
then pieces moved around randomly and some washed into the river with runoff. etc.

If the high tide line was above where the money
was buried, that is where you would expect to find pieces of money (at the high tide line) - which is exactly what the Fazios and others saw. That does not mean it was the tide that brought the money
in onto Tina Bar.

A very thought provoking post G. I like it when people think out of the bax and question so called "expert" conclusions. Maybe all the money was there but they only excavated about $5800. Hmmmm.

I'd like to hear TK's views on the money fragment deposit scenario. Has he stopped working on Norjack or is TK just working in silence?

I think Bruce is off to a good start with is manuscript, but Cossey fed him BS about a "Paradise chute" IMHO. I've given Bruce some edits to clean up the glaring gear errors. If Bruce wants to get the maximum chance of publisher acceptance he should leave out the CIA MK Ultra stuff, at least on the initial submission. The SOG stuff is OK.

377

I have no idea what Tom Kaye is doing.

I think Bruce does not understand what-all Cossey
said. I think Bruce gets things confused and
sometimes hears what he wants to hear .... but
he has made some provocative points, as usual.

Whatever amount of money was in the beginning
at TBar, the portion Ingram pulled out was not
just laying on the surface - he had to pull 'the
clump' out. The previous high tide had not brought
in 2-3" of sand along with the 'clump' of money.
Tides on the Columbia don't deposit 2-3" of new
sand + debris with each tide (but flood will).

All the tide does is wash lapping water over the
surface as the tide water is rising on the bar.

I dont know why anyone would claim tides bring
in a lot of debris and sand, like a flood.

All the Fazio's have done is make an association,
between the last tidal event, fragments along the
tidal line, and the finding of the money by Ingram
which is merely coincidental to the last tide. The
money was already under the sand prior to the last tide just before discovery, and the tide before that, and so on.

The salient fact is: that there were so many fragments to be seen along the last tide line,
speaks to a volume of money well in excess of
the $5800 in serial numbers identified.

The money was in place under sand, prior to the
last tide. A reliable date of deposit is c. 1977.

Bruce also mentions silver nitrate contamination
on the bills from finger printing the FBI did. We
already knew about that.

Bruce mentions silver grains on the money - he
evidently got that from Tom Kaye. But there is
nothing unusual about this. All of the soils along
the Columbia are ladden with silver grains.

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

Why is this woman consuming so much of the world's time?

Mr. Pot . . . Mrs. Kettle.

The entire topic is a waste of time yet there are a number of people involved. Why? Because it's what they do.

You will no more find the answers in this thread than on a Ouija board. In fact, you might find better answers on a Ouija board, but that's not going to stop the people involved from continuing to post here.

You have a valid opinion.

[377 22]

Quote

You will no more find the answers in this thread than on a Ouija board. In fact, you might find better answers on a Ouija board, but that's not going to stop the people involved from continuing to post here.

Sheesh Quade, we aren't THAT useless. This forum dug up the Air America 727 pre Norjack jumps, SOG ops and Ted Braden, smoke jumper CIA covert air ops links and an obscure but very qualified suspect that the FBI had independently identified but kept quiet about. None of it proves who Cooper was, but this info represents respectable investigative results.

My Ouiga board hasn't produced much.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

Don't know what Jo has told you.What I do know is that she has told many others it was a death bed confesion.to include me.The first documentary she was in clearly states this.Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Quade. Your right. But of course that can be said for most of Drop Zone.When looked at from your point of view.Other's feel different.Believe it or not this thread has suplied a lot of usefull info it has discovered info that was never looked at before.Jerry

[quade 4]

Quote

Quade. Your right. But of course that can be said for most of Drop Zone.When looked at from your point of view.Other's feel different.Believe it or not this thread has suplied a lot of usefull info it has discovered info that was never looked at before.Jerry

Info? Yes.

Useful for discovering who DB Cooper was? Nonsense.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[377 22]

Quade preclaimed:

Quote

Info? Yes.

Useful for discovering who DB Cooper was? Nonsense.

I think it is highly likely and just plain logical to assume that Cooper KNEW a 727 could be jumped. Sure, it's a guess, but it has logic to it.

Cooper might have been an ignorant idiot, but his alleged commands about flt levels and flap settings suggest otherwise. If you couldnt jump the 727, you were doomed to be captured upon landing. Cooper needed to be off the plane when it landed and parachuting was the only way to accomplish that.

Finding out who knew about the jumpability of a 727 prior to Norjack could lead you to Cooper's ID.

Why is that such a ridiculous assumption?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

Did you all see the video posted in the "WWII airborne" thread in this forum?

YES, great video!

I didn't like S/L jumps, too low for my taste. I dont like to be able to tell a Ford from a Chevy at exit altitude. Somehow its different opening at 2500 ft after a long FF than exiting at 2500 ft with an S/L.

Notice thre "squidding" of the T10? canopies before they fully deployed?

I wonder if the Air America 727 S/L canopy deployments had appreciably longer squidding duration?

Watching the ground approach fast in the footage filmed from a WW II paratrooper reeenactment jumper POV makes me REALLY appreciate canopies that flare. I somehow managed to do over a hundred porous worn out C9 jumps without giving any business to the orthopredic surgeons. Never managed to stand up even one of those brutal C9 arrivals but easily did standup landings under the used PC that I bought when everyone else was going to squares.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[quade 4]

Quote

I think it is highly likely and just plain logical to assume that Cooper KNEW a 727 could be jumped. Sure, it's a guess, but it has logic to it.

It's far more likely he just knew the door could open. Most people did since that wasn't an uncommon way for people to enter and exit the aircraft. It was fairly common knowledge.

If Cooper was a whuffo, then that's really all he needed to know in order to ask for parachutes. Since he didn't seem to know jack shit about parachutes, there's no reason to assume any special knowledge of anything else either. Hell, how many times have we heard skydiver ask if such and such a plane was possible to jump from? As long as it has a door of any type, most people are going to assume some type of exit can be made and unless it's right over a prop or in front of an engine, they're probably right.

In other words, assuming special knowledge of the plane as a jump platform is a blind ally as far as finding him.

Logically . . . of course.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[377 22]

I guess we just disagree Quade.

To me, knowing that the 727 door will open for ground exits doesnt guarantee jumpability. I'd have figured that even if you could open the door, the airloads would push the stairs back up towards the fuselage making exit very difficult or impossible depending on clearances.

Hell, not even the 727 pilots or FE knew the airstairs would open enough for jumping and had no idea what the effects on aircraft pitch or control would be. They had to contact Boeing through NWA dispatch in Minneapolis to get answers.

Someday Norjack will be solved and we will know Cooper's identity with certainty. Amelia's plane will also be found. I just hope they happen in my lifetime.

Quade, if YOU were given a million dollar investigative budget and hired as sort of a special prosecutor to re-open the Cooper case, what would you do? What would you look at?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[quade 4]

Quote

Hell, not even the 727 pilots or FE knew the airstairs would open enough for jumping and had no idea what the effects on aircraft pitch or control would be. They had to contact Boeing through NWA dispatch in Minneapolis to get answers.

Again, assume Cooper is a whuffo. Does he care? No. In his mind he's leaving the aircraft.

Quote

Quade, if YOU were given a million dollar investigative budget and hired as sort of a special prosecutor to re-open the Cooper case, what would you do? What would you look at?

If I was given a MILLION dollars to solve a crime involving $200,000?

The first thing I'd do is take the money and head for the border. The nimrods that are paying me five times more money than was lost are idiots and I'm getting the hell out of there before they start doing the math.

Beyond that, I might wander around the area with a divining rod. I mean, I probably won't find the money, but I can probably do that for 10 years and live pretty comfortably until "they" figure it's pointless.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[377 22]

Quote

Since he didn't seem to know jack shit about parachutes, there's no reason to assume any special knowledge of anything else either.

I go back and forth on that one. His actions are consistent with those of a whuffo but also consistent with those of an experienced aircrewman.

I'd sure want a steerable canopy thousgh, and he didnt pick one.

If I didnt know what my exit speed or altitude above ground would be I'd probably chose the C9 over a PC. The PC could blow up at high speeds and the C9 probably wouldn't. C9s are among the strongest personnel canopies ever made. If I knew I could freefall for a while and slow down to 120 I'd have gone for the PC, but there were mountains in the area and extended freefall could kill you. All in all I think I would have taken the NB6 (or NB8?) rig, just as Cooper did. Relaible, strong and if you werent a skydiver you might worry about how to fly a sport chute.

Cooper could be a mastermind SOG type or a REALLY dumb whuffo jackass.

It's that dichotomy which drives me nuts in trying to figure out what kind of person he was.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.