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We strayed again, I want to make a motion that we return to the CAVA process and discuss this paragraph Bruce just put up, and stay on point by IGNORING the Paranoria ramblings. Jo you are welcome to participte but no more babbling about the FBI, and discuss the topic NOT WEBER! The subject of this forum is DB cooper not Duane Weber. I feel i can ask for this for a couple of reasons, I am one of the few jumpers (on a jumpers forum) in this discussion, I have been on this forum since 2003, and one of only two people in this forum (377 being the other) who can say they have experienced what Cooper felt by jumping out of a Jet. My patience are wearing thin just like others here with the diversions caused by rants, the attacks, then whining, it's the same everytime and i am about to unleash and type what i really want to say, and quade will probably give me a TO. So can we get back to the discussion and not rants? So do I have a second to my motion?
SKYWHUFFO and All,
Good post, I feel like I may have contributed to the diversion, but, in my defense, I did it with the “greater good” in mind, specifically forcing Jo to “Put-up-or-shut-up.” Her shutting up would ultimately reduce the carping and griping and let us focus on the Community Assessed Valid Assumptions (CAVAs). So, enough of that let’s get back to CAVAs.
The CAVA process (as I envisioned it) requires a great deal of patience and the willingness to really run the issue “to the ground,” I would caution about corrupting the process by impatience, therefore, switching to a new CAVA issue seems to me to be premature, but as previously stated, I envisioned a process that was by the community and for the community. So, we’ll move to a new one. However, I would like for us to put the old one to bed.
I would think that at this time Parliamentary procedure would dictate that I ask for a motion to close CAVA #1 and take a vote. Based on what I said above, I’ll just go straight to the vote.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Issue #1 (for CAVA consideration):
Dan Cooper was carrying a small paper bag when he boarded Flight 305 at PDX.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Please make a post with your vote on CAVA #1.
Your vote should be in the form of:
I agree, I disagree, or I am undecided (please include a stated reason , if undecided). Please limit the vote content to CAVA #1. This will make it easier to understand exactly where you stand.
And now, CAVA #2. Be aware that I feel sticking with issues in chronological order is a more logical approach. However, I want the process to work more than I want to “do it my way.” So, here it is:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Issue #2 (for CAVA consideration):
Dan Cooper inspected the parachute (he used) and located the packer’s card.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Notice that inspecting the panels, etc. is not included. I think the CAVAs should be one issue at a time. This takes more time, but it will add clarity, and prevent people from voting in a particular way because the think one major part of a multi-part issue is true, false, or indeterminate.
So, let’s see “Vote Postings” please for CAVA #1 and begin discussion for CAVA #2.
PS: The “V” and the “C” are adjacent on the QWERTY keyboard, do you know how easy that makes it to turn CAVA into CACA while typing? Maybe God is trying to tell me something.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sluggo’s Quotable Quote:
"Always acknowledge a fault. This will throw those in authority off their guard and give you an opportunity to commit more." ~Mark Twain
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Blog
NORJAK Forum
Good post, I feel like I may have contributed to the diversion, but, in my defense, I did it with the “greater good” in mind, specifically forcing Jo to “Put-up-or-shut-up.” Her shutting up would ultimately reduce the carping and griping and let us focus on the Community Assessed Valid Assumptions (CAVAs). So, enough of that let’s get back to CAVAs.
The CAVA process (as I envisioned it) requires a great deal of patience and the willingness to really run the issue “to the ground,” I would caution about corrupting the process by impatience, therefore, switching to a new CAVA issue seems to me to be premature, but as previously stated, I envisioned a process that was by the community and for the community. So, we’ll move to a new one. However, I would like for us to put the old one to bed.
I would think that at this time Parliamentary procedure would dictate that I ask for a motion to close CAVA #1 and take a vote. Based on what I said above, I’ll just go straight to the vote.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Issue #1 (for CAVA consideration):
Dan Cooper was carrying a small paper bag when he boarded Flight 305 at PDX.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Please make a post with your vote on CAVA #1.
Your vote should be in the form of:
I agree, I disagree, or I am undecided (please include a stated reason , if undecided). Please limit the vote content to CAVA #1. This will make it easier to understand exactly where you stand.
And now, CAVA #2. Be aware that I feel sticking with issues in chronological order is a more logical approach. However, I want the process to work more than I want to “do it my way.” So, here it is:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Issue #2 (for CAVA consideration):
Dan Cooper inspected the parachute (he used) and located the packer’s card.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Notice that inspecting the panels, etc. is not included. I think the CAVAs should be one issue at a time. This takes more time, but it will add clarity, and prevent people from voting in a particular way because the think one major part of a multi-part issue is true, false, or indeterminate.
So, let’s see “Vote Postings” please for CAVA #1 and begin discussion for CAVA #2.
PS: The “V” and the “C” are adjacent on the QWERTY keyboard, do you know how easy that makes it to turn CAVA into CACA while typing? Maybe God is trying to tell me something.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sluggo’s Quotable Quote:
"Always acknowledge a fault. This will throw those in authority off their guard and give you an opportunity to commit more." ~Mark Twain
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
I agree now.
Orange1 0
QuoteIt isnt the FBI who has made Jo waste a lot of time and money, it's Duane's lies and her own stubborn obsession.
Bingo.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
377 22
CAVA: I say yes on the paper bag.
377
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
QuoteIssue #2 (for CAVA consideration):
Dan Cooper inspected the parachute (he used) and located the packer’s card.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Notice that inspecting the panels, etc. is not included. I think the CAVAs should be one issue at a time. This takes more time, but it will add clarity, and prevent people from voting in a particular way because the think one major part of a multi-part issue is true, false, or indeterminate.
So, let’s see “Vote Postings” please for CAVA #1 and begin discussion for CAVA #2.
Ckret said he was unaware of any evidence supporting this claim (Cooper inspecting rigger card). It is intriguing to me because it would tell me a LOT about Cooper's jump and gear expertise, but I can't find any evidence besides one authors bare assertion that it occured.
Military aircrew have no reason to look at packing cards for emergency rigs and don't. I dont know about paratroopers or smoke jumpers but I'd guess that they assume the gear is current and don't look at the cards. Skydivers look at them more than any other kinds of jumpers because many DZ's inspect them too and won't let you jump if you last reserve repack was beyond FAA time requirements. I had mine inspected just last weekend when I showed up at a DZ I hadn't been to for a while.
The pockets for these cards on military bailout rigs are quite obscure and easily overlooked by non experts.
When I jumped military surplus gear I knew where my belly reserve packing card was but never had a reason to look for one on the main because there were no legal requirements about main re-packing frequency. My main did have a packing card pocket but I only noticed it by accident after I had jumped it many times.
I tend towards discounting the credibility of this CAVA 2 item, but want to hear from others.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 244
QuoteWe strayed again, I want to make a motion that we return to the CAVA process and discuss this paragraph Bruce just put up, and stay on point by IGNORING the Paranoria ramblings. Jo you are welcome to participte but no more babbling about the FBI, and discuss the topic NOT WEBER! The subject of this forum is DB cooper not Duane Weber. I feel i can ask for this for a couple of reasons, I am one of the few jumpers (on a jumpers forum) in this discussion, I have been on this forum since 2003, and one of only two people in this forum (377 being the other) who can say they have experienced what Cooper felt by jumping out of a Jet. My patience are wearing thin just like others here with the diversions caused by rants, the attacks, then whining, it's the same everytime and i am about to unleash and type what i really want to say, and quade will probably give me a TO. So can we get back to the discussion and not rants? So do I have a second to my motion?
Thank God! Agree -
georger 244
Notice that inspecting the panels, etc. is not included. I think the CAVAs should be one issue at a time. This takes more time, but it will add clarity, and prevent people from voting in a particular way because the think one major part of a multi-part issue is true, false, or indeterminate.
So, let’s see “Vote Postings” please for CAVA #1 and begin discussion for CAVA #2.
Ckret said he was unaware of any evidence supporting this claim (Cooper inspecting rigger card). It is intriguing to me because it would tell me a LOT about Cooper's jump and gear expertise, but I can't find any evidence besides one authors bare assertion that it occured.
Military aircrew have no reason to look at packing cards for emergency rigs and don't. I dont know about paratroopers or smoke jumpers but I'd guess that they assume the gear is current and don't look at the cards. Skydivers look at them more than any other kinds of jumpers because many DZ's inspect them too and won't let you jump if you last reserve repack was beyond FAA time requirements. I had mine inspected just last weekend when I showed up at a DZ I hadn't been to for a while.
The pockets for these cards on military bailout rigs are quite obscure and easily overlooked by non experts.
When I jumped military surplus gear I knew where my belly reserve packing card was but never had a reason to look for one on the main because there were no legal requirements about main re-packing frequency. My main did have a packing card pocket but I only noticed it by accident after I had jumped it many times.
I tend towards discounting the credibility of this CAVA 2 item, but want to hear from others.
377
another good post!
So, let’s see “Vote Postings” please for CAVA #1 and begin discussion for CAVA #2.
Ckret said he was unaware of any evidence supporting this claim (Cooper inspecting rigger card). It is intriguing to me because it would tell me a LOT about Cooper's jump and gear expertise, but I can't find any evidence besides one authors bare assertion that it occured.
Military aircrew have no reason to look at packing cards for emergency rigs and don't. I dont know about paratroopers or smoke jumpers but I'd guess that they assume the gear is current and don't look at the cards. Skydivers look at them more than any other kinds of jumpers because many DZ's inspect them too and won't let you jump if you last reserve repack was beyond FAA time requirements. I had mine inspected just last weekend when I showed up at a DZ I hadn't been to for a while.
The pockets for these cards on military bailout rigs are quite obscure and easily overlooked by non experts.
When I jumped military surplus gear I knew where my belly reserve packing card was but never had a reason to look for one on the main because there were no legal requirements about main re-packing frequency. My main did have a packing card pocket but I only noticed it by accident after I had jumped it many times.
I tend towards discounting the credibility of this CAVA 2 item, but want to hear from others.
377
I just dont know. Where did Tosaw get his info?
Ex-FBI probably talked to other FBI, maybe Pringle?
This does not seem to have come from H. I think Jerry would agree with that assumption. Maybe Jerry
can confirm?
IF Tina gave this testimony it would be in her interviews which we dont have access to. Ckret
might know or he might not? In either case Ckret wont be posting back here to the Jo-blog. (And
sadly I happen to agree with that for the time being... which may last forever).
So... Im being really helpful here aren't I! Havent
contributed one fact because I dont have the
facts of this.
Except for this: Ckret did confirm almost identical
testimony of Tina saying 'Cooper put on the chute
with ease ... surprised her'. So Ckret confirms one
element of the Tosaw version of Tina's testimony.
That lends credence to Tosaw.
Let's also not forget he dawned the parachute
early, Hancock had not even fully left and came
back and saw him chuting up. Plane was still on
the ground at SEA. So that is the timeframe we
are talking about ... who-ever's version is true.
377 22
TOSAW wrote:
Tina wouldnt know what a packing card was or what info it contained unless Cooper told her. I think there is a lot of "fill in" here by Tosaw.
We can deal with the alleged D-ring comment in CAVA 3.
And Jo, consider the waste of time and money you have caused by lodging a formal complaint with the FBI about Ckret's conduct. All misconduct complaints have to be investigated, even baseless vindictive ones like your. That was just downright MEAN.
377
Quote"Also, Tina described the ease with which he slipped on the backpack after first opening it and examining the canopy panels and parachute lines. He even found the rigger's card that was tucked away in a little pocket and looked to see who had packed it and when. Other things indicating parachute training were his comments about the missing D-rings on the back chute and his choice of altitude, speed and diving platform."
Tina wouldnt know what a packing card was or what info it contained unless Cooper told her. I think there is a lot of "fill in" here by Tosaw.
We can deal with the alleged D-ring comment in CAVA 3.
And Jo, consider the waste of time and money you have caused by lodging a formal complaint with the FBI about Ckret's conduct. All misconduct complaints have to be investigated, even baseless vindictive ones like your. That was just downright MEAN.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
QuoteWell, Mr Attorney - you nor any jury will erase what I saw and held in my hands - the ticket, the bag, the stub and the satchel. You cannot erase what he told and showed me in WA in 1979.
You are making a fundamental mistake here Jo.
YOU are the person making the extraordinary claim.
YOU have the burden of proof.
If you were trying to prove Duane was Cooper in a court of law do you really think you would prevail? Your claim is primarily based on remembered tangible evidence (bag, ticket, stub and satchel), none of which can be physically produced for inspection by the jurors.
Sure, nobody can erase what you think you recall, but thats not the point. The point is that you make a big opening statement:
"Duane was Cooper"
Then when you have to present your probative evidence the best you have is recollections of items seen but now unavailable.
I think it would take a jury about ten minutes to reach a verdict and it would not be in your favor.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 244
QuoteRichard Tosaw writes on page 69 of his book, "DB Cooper Dead or Alive? The True Story of the Legendary Skyjacker:"
"Also, Tina described the ease with which he slipped on the backpack after first opening it and examining the canopy panels and parachute lines. He even found the rigger's card that was tucked away in a little pocket and looked to see who had packed it and when. Other things indicating parachute training were his comments about the missing D-rings on the back chute and his choice of altitude, speed and diving platform."
btw: good job! Thanks...
Orange1 0
QuoteAnd Jo, consider the waste of time and money you have caused by lodging a formal complaint with the FBI about Ckret's conduct. All misconduct complaints have to be investigated, even baseless vindictive ones like your. That was just downright MEAN.
377
I missed something! - did she really do this? If so I agree entirely with 377's opinion. Maybe it is time once and for all to properly send Jo to Coventry.
Re CAVA
#1 I agree with.
#2 sounds dubious to me.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
georger 244
And Jo, consider the waste of time and money you have caused by lodging a formal complaint with the FBI about Ckret's conduct. All misconduct complaints have to be investigated, even baseless vindictive ones like your. That was just downright MEAN.
377
377
well said. Its always best to confront these things
right up front.
georger 244
QuoteQuoteAnd Jo, consider the waste of time and money you have caused by lodging a formal complaint with the FBI about Ckret's conduct. All misconduct complaints have to be investigated, even baseless vindictive ones like your. That was just downright MEAN.
377
I missed something! - did she really do this?
Yes. I communicated directly with Ckret about this
at the time .. and continue to communicate with Ckret
as others also do -
I thought you knew about this a long time ago.
377,
Like i said earlier, WE are IGNORING the parnoria posts! Jerry you hear this you like to respond to them too! Stick to the CAVA discussion and life will be happier and make quade's job a lot easier! 
Orange1 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteAnd Jo, consider the waste of time and money you have caused by lodging a formal complaint with the FBI about Ckret's conduct. All misconduct complaints have to be investigated, even baseless vindictive ones like your. That was just downright MEAN.
377
I missed something! - did she really do this?
Yes. I communicated directly with Ckret about this
at the time .. and continue to communicate with Ckret
as others also do -
I thought you knew about this a long time ago.
I knew she had "complained" but not that it was a "formal complaint", if you see what I mean.
Lovely - so Ckret's valuable time catching real criminals now gets wasted having to defend himself against the unfounded accusations of a delusional woman.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
as far as the rigger card, i am once again calling folklore. As 377 said why would Tina know what it was to report it. If he did look at it i think it was by mistake. Like any Whuffo would do if he opened the rig and saw the card he would pull it out to see what it was. Here is a question related to putting on the rig i have. In what order did it take place, he tied the bag to his body or did he put on the rig then tie it on? I have seen the info, but not any order. I am curious if he attached it to the webbing or his body. Anyone seen this?
Best Sarah Palin voice: “Ya know… sometimes people do things that (looking at the palm of her left hand) are just not helpful! And… sometimes they do things that are (looking at the palm of her right hand) just plain mean.
Here is a story, it may be true, it may not… but it’s pretty close:
Ray Lauer gets a phone call from a spooky woman in Florida who after 14 years still insists that her deceased husband was DB Cooper. Because Agent Lauer was chasing terrorist, working on a couple of Civil-Rights cases, and trying to reduce violent crimes at government facilities, he decides he just doesn’t have time for her and chooses not to return the call. So, a kind-hearted “representative of the illustrious FBI” feels sorry for her and returns the call.
From this, Jo makes one of her logical quantum leaps and assumes that “the representative of the illustrious FBI” is still actively investigating NORJAK. Because she gets mad at Sluggo, she decides to take it out on “the representative of the illustrious FBI” by calling Ray Lauer (who doesn’t take her calls) and complaining because “the representative of the illustrious FBI” was (and I quote) “taking FBI business outside of the office and to a private citizen”. So, that’s the thanks he gets for being kind-hearted and not just ignoring her! Now ain’t that some shit!
Would this make a great sitcom or what?
So, is Jo confused about the way the world works, or just mean? [I could make this question a CAVA.]
I think she is the meanest confused woman I know!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sluggo’s Quotable Quote:
Never argue with a sick mind, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[/purple
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
Here is a story, it may be true, it may not… but it’s pretty close:
Ray Lauer gets a phone call from a spooky woman in Florida who after 14 years still insists that her deceased husband was DB Cooper. Because Agent Lauer was chasing terrorist, working on a couple of Civil-Rights cases, and trying to reduce violent crimes at government facilities, he decides he just doesn’t have time for her and chooses not to return the call. So, a kind-hearted “representative of the illustrious FBI” feels sorry for her and returns the call.
From this, Jo makes one of her logical quantum leaps and assumes that “the representative of the illustrious FBI” is still actively investigating NORJAK. Because she gets mad at Sluggo, she decides to take it out on “the representative of the illustrious FBI” by calling Ray Lauer (who doesn’t take her calls) and complaining because “the representative of the illustrious FBI” was (and I quote) “taking FBI business outside of the office and to a private citizen”. So, that’s the thanks he gets for being kind-hearted and not just ignoring her! Now ain’t that some shit!
Would this make a great sitcom or what?
So, is Jo confused about the way the world works, or just mean? [I could make this question a CAVA.]
I think she is the meanest confused woman I know!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sluggo’s Quotable Quote:
Never argue with a sick mind, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[/purple
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
I vote yes on CAVA #1, the paper bag.
As for CAVA #2, I have mixed feelings about the rigger's card, but I tend to give Tosaw the benefit of the doubt.
I re-read his book last night, and gained a new appreciation of the man and his work. I felt he wrote from a deep body of knowledge.
As far as I know, Tosaw was the last person to have an extensive conversation with Tina, and it was just prior to the publication of his book, so mid-1980s, and the information would be relatively fresh in his mind.
In my conversations with Galen Cook, I have learned that Tosaw kept great field notes and was a solid, hard-working investigator. Galen collaborated with Richard in his latter years, and now Galen possesses a trove of Richard's work in copied form.
Galen has a lot of respect for Tosaw, and so do the Fazios, who rented out land to Richard in the summer so he could park an RV and drag the Columbia for evidence.
In turn, I think Tosaw had a lot of respect for Cooper, and considered him a savvy criminal and someone with an advanced knowledge of 727s and parachuting.
The fact that DBC commanded the pilots to trim their flaps at fifteen degrees impressed the heck out of Rataczak, who told me that the 727 was the only Boeing craft to have a fifteen-degree setting and he thus considered Cooper to have a highly advanced knowledge of the plane.
Add to this the fact that Cooper knew the plane could fly with the aft stairs deployed further adds to the perspective that Cooper was a smart cookie.
With all of this, I could see how Tosaw could "fill-in" the bit about Tina witnessing the rigger card action.
Remember, Tosaw also reportedly said that Tina was a basket-case in the interview, and struggled to give more than vague, simplistic answers. That's not in his book, but I've heard that from Galen and others. So, Tina's mental state and ability to provide meaningful evidentiary contributions might be another CAVA topic.
BTW: Robert Blevins confirmed to me last night that he has directly communicated with Tina. However, he refused to say how, or what they discussed. In fact, he absolutely refuses to say anything more than state the confirmation of direct communication.
As for CAVA #2, I have mixed feelings about the rigger's card, but I tend to give Tosaw the benefit of the doubt.
I re-read his book last night, and gained a new appreciation of the man and his work. I felt he wrote from a deep body of knowledge.
As far as I know, Tosaw was the last person to have an extensive conversation with Tina, and it was just prior to the publication of his book, so mid-1980s, and the information would be relatively fresh in his mind.
In my conversations with Galen Cook, I have learned that Tosaw kept great field notes and was a solid, hard-working investigator. Galen collaborated with Richard in his latter years, and now Galen possesses a trove of Richard's work in copied form.
Galen has a lot of respect for Tosaw, and so do the Fazios, who rented out land to Richard in the summer so he could park an RV and drag the Columbia for evidence.
In turn, I think Tosaw had a lot of respect for Cooper, and considered him a savvy criminal and someone with an advanced knowledge of 727s and parachuting.
The fact that DBC commanded the pilots to trim their flaps at fifteen degrees impressed the heck out of Rataczak, who told me that the 727 was the only Boeing craft to have a fifteen-degree setting and he thus considered Cooper to have a highly advanced knowledge of the plane.
Add to this the fact that Cooper knew the plane could fly with the aft stairs deployed further adds to the perspective that Cooper was a smart cookie.
With all of this, I could see how Tosaw could "fill-in" the bit about Tina witnessing the rigger card action.
Remember, Tosaw also reportedly said that Tina was a basket-case in the interview, and struggled to give more than vague, simplistic answers. That's not in his book, but I've heard that from Galen and others. So, Tina's mental state and ability to provide meaningful evidentiary contributions might be another CAVA topic.
BTW: Robert Blevins confirmed to me last night that he has directly communicated with Tina. However, he refused to say how, or what they discussed. In fact, he absolutely refuses to say anything more than state the confirmation of direct communication.
georger 244
good observations ... its too bad GalenQuoteI vote yes on CAVA #1, the paper bag.
As for CAVA #2, I have mixed feelings about the rigger's card, but I tend to give Tosaw the benefit of the doubt.
I re-read his book last night, and gained a new appreciation of the man and his work. I felt he wrote from a deep body of knowledge.
As far as I know, Tosaw was the last person to have an extensive conversation with Tina, and it was just prior to the publication of his book, so mid-1980s, and the information would be relatively fresh in his mind.
In my conversations with Galen Cook, I have learned that Tosaw kept great field notes and was a solid, hard-working investigator. Galen collaborated with Richard in his latter years, and now Galen possesses a trove of Richard's work in copied form.
Galen has a lot of respect for Tosaw, and so do the Fazios, who rented out land to Richard in the summer so he could park an RV and drag the Columbia for evidence.
In turn, I think Tosaw had a lot of respect for Cooper, and considered him a savvy criminal and someone with an advanced knowledge of 727s and parachuting.
The fact that DBC commanded the pilots to trim their flaps at fifteen degrees impressed the heck out of Rataczak, who told me that the 727 was the only Boeing craft to have a fifteen-degree setting and he thus considered Cooper to have a highly advanced knowledge of the plane.
Add to this the fact that Cooper knew the plane could fly with the aft stairs deployed further adds to the perspective that Cooper was a smart cookie.
With all of this, I could see how Tosaw could "fill-in" the bit about Tina witnessing the rigger card action.
Remember, Tosaw also reportedly said that Tina was a basket-case in the interview, and struggled to give more than vague, simplistic answers. That's not in his book, but I've heard that from Galen and others. So, Tina's mental state and ability to provide meaningful evidentiary contributions might be another CAVA topic.
BTW: Robert Blevins confirmed to me last night that he has directly communicated with Tina. However, he refused to say how, or what they discussed. In fact, he absolutely refuses to say anything more than state the confirmation of direct communication.
isnt here ... he might be able to comment on where
and how Tosaw got the info for his book.
Galen you are being summoned!
Come and paricipate as you please!
It's safe here now .... I think!
G.
BruceSmith said:
The fact that DBC commanded the pilots to trim their flaps at fifteen degrees impressed the heck out of Rataczak, who told me that the 727 was the only Boeing craft to have a fifteen-degree setting and he thus considered Cooper to have a highly advanced knowledge of the plane.
Bruce, maybe some fact checking is in order here.
I haven’t ever flown a passenger airline, but I’ll bet that in 1971 there were a “grunge” of passenger planes with 15-degree flap settings.
I checked a few technical sites and found that the B-737-100 and B-737-200 both had 15-degree settings, The First flight dates for the 100 and 200 were 04/09/1967 and 08/08/1967 respectively, so they were around in 1971.
Here’s some stuff from a quick check (doesn’t make it the truth):
From an NTSB B-737 Accident Report:
The captain reported that control became increasingly difficult during the approach to land when the flaps were extended from 15 degrees to 30 degrees.
Some conversations (on forums) from a couple of Captains:
The 737 has flaps settings of 0, 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 25, 30, and 40. I believe most airlines use 15 degrees on take off and 30 degrees for landing. a few more notches that 0, 1, 2, 3, full.
On the old 737-300/400, you had flaps UP, 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 25, 30 and 40. Most takeoff were 5 or 15.
So, I don’t know where Rataczak was coming from.
Also, the “terminology” Cooper used is lost to history. I’ve read reports that indicate he said “Flaps down,” “Flaps to 15-degrees,” “Flaps extended,” and Himmelsbach is quoted as saying “Cooper asked for the plane to be flown ‘dirty’”. That’s how I would expect Himmelsbach to express it, but I’m not sure he was quoting Cooper (in that case).
It needs a lot of digging and research (a possible CAVA).
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The fact that DBC commanded the pilots to trim their flaps at fifteen degrees impressed the heck out of Rataczak, who told me that the 727 was the only Boeing craft to have a fifteen-degree setting and he thus considered Cooper to have a highly advanced knowledge of the plane.
Bruce, maybe some fact checking is in order here.
I haven’t ever flown a passenger airline, but I’ll bet that in 1971 there were a “grunge” of passenger planes with 15-degree flap settings.
I checked a few technical sites and found that the B-737-100 and B-737-200 both had 15-degree settings, The First flight dates for the 100 and 200 were 04/09/1967 and 08/08/1967 respectively, so they were around in 1971.
Here’s some stuff from a quick check (doesn’t make it the truth):
From an NTSB B-737 Accident Report:
The captain reported that control became increasingly difficult during the approach to land when the flaps were extended from 15 degrees to 30 degrees.
Some conversations (on forums) from a couple of Captains:
The 737 has flaps settings of 0, 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 25, 30, and 40. I believe most airlines use 15 degrees on take off and 30 degrees for landing. a few more notches that 0, 1, 2, 3, full.
On the old 737-300/400, you had flaps UP, 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 25, 30 and 40. Most takeoff were 5 or 15.
So, I don’t know where Rataczak was coming from.
Also, the “terminology” Cooper used is lost to history. I’ve read reports that indicate he said “Flaps down,” “Flaps to 15-degrees,” “Flaps extended,” and Himmelsbach is quoted as saying “Cooper asked for the plane to be flown ‘dirty’”. That’s how I would expect Himmelsbach to express it, but I’m not sure he was quoting Cooper (in that case).
It needs a lot of digging and research (a possible CAVA).
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"Also, Tina described the ease with which he slipped on the backpack after first opening it and examining the canopy panels and parachute lines. He even found the rigger's card that was tucked away in a little pocket and looked to see who had packed it and when. Other things indicating parachute training were his comments about the missing D-rings on the back chute and his choice of altitude, speed and diving platform."
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