DB Cooper

[1969912 0]

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To clarify:

If the pilot reported "X miles from (~North of) Portland VOR", they may have actually been X miles from (~North) of Battleground, and not PDX.

If the FBI map is a radar plot map what does it
matter where BTG VOR was or what a pilot reported?

Radar is independent.

Good point. Was the radar plot map entirely based on either radar echos or transponder replies, with no pilot position reports involved? I thought that there was some question about that. It's been a while, so I'm not sure.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[skyjack71 0]

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Good point. Was the radar plot map entirely based on either radar echos or transponder replies, with no pilot position reports involved? I thought that there was some question about that. It's been a while, so I'm not sure.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 256]

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To clarify:

If the pilot reported "X miles from (~North of) Portland VOR", they may have actually been X miles from (~North) of Battleground, and not PDX.

If the FBI map is a radar plot map what does it
matter where BTG VOR was or what a pilot reported?

Radar is independent.

Good point. Was the radar plot map entirely based on either radar echos or transponder replies, with no pilot position reports involved? I thought that there was some question about that. It's been a while, so I'm not sure.

based on the foregoing discussions going way back, I think you may be
right ... I dont think we ever reached a consensus
even when Ckret was here, so we decided the FBI
map was some combination of radar plots, pilot
reports/notes, transcript input ... a Heinz 57!

Sluggo can correct anything I say ...

Meanwhile the original NWA (black & white) map produced by Solderlind etal was never questioned and, we never knew what map that was laid on.

Somewhere somehow, the FBI map morphed out of the first NWA map. When and where and by who etc is unsure. Ckret didnt seem to know.

I am willing to bet NWA has/had the full history of
all of these maps. Likewise other people.

Dont forget Jerry's version!

This is a real can of worms - and it doesnt take
much imagination to know why. The flight path was central in the case.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,


What follows is an example of why we (this thread) never make any progress.

{SPECIAL NOTE TO GEORGER: Please, don’t take this personally… it is just a convenient example of something that I think is hurting us as a group. I could dig out examples that involve me, 377, orange1 or anyone else. This example just happens to be something that I was replying to, and thought I would use it to segue into the issue.}

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Georger said:
Sluggo can correct anything I say ...

Meanwhile the original NWA (black & white) map produced by Solderlind etal was never questioned and, we never knew what map that was laid on.

See This Post by Sluggo_Monster where I show what map the FBI LZ was plotted on. (The 1954 La Center Quadrangle Topo.)

In that post I explain that the map used was a 1:62,500 scale topo-map produced by the Army Corps of Engineers. And that the 1:24,000 scale (7½ minute) USGS maps of that area did not exist in 1971. That is why there are no modern maps with the La Center name. This map, last updated in 1954 was the current 1:62,500 scale map in 1971.

I don’t blame georger for missing (or forgetting) that post. Anyone could have missed or forgotten it. With all the back-biting, carping, flaming, and insults that go on here, the signal just gets lost in the noise.

We (the regular posters on this thread) have a WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE about NORJAK, we just don’t have a parliamentarian to keep us in order (that’s NOT quade’s job) or a recording secretary to keep a history of the things we decide.

At any rate, we DO know what map was used for the plot of the FBI LZ.


Edit:
Here is a direct link to the LZ Map (in color).

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[georger 256]

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All,


What follows is an example of why we (this thread) never make any progress.

{SPECIAL NOTE TO GEORGER: Please, don’t take this personally… it is just a convenient example of something that I think is hurting us as a group. I could dig out examples that involve me, 377, orange1 or anyone else. This example just happens to be something that I was replying to, and thought I would use it to segue into the issue.}

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Georger said:
Sluggo can correct anything I say ...

Meanwhile the original NWA (black & white) map produced by Solderlind etal was never questioned and, we never knew what map that was laid on.

See This Post by Sluggo_Monster where I show what map the FBI LZ was plotted on. (The 1954 La Center Quadrangle Topo.)

In that post I explain that the map used was a 1:62,500 scale topo-map produced by the Army Corps of Engineers. And that the 1:24,000 scale (7½ minute) USGS maps of that area did not exist in 1971. That is why there are no modern maps with the La Center name. This map, last updated in 1954 was the current 1:62,500 scale map in 1971.

I don’t blame georger for missing (or forgetting) that post. Anyone could have missed or forgotten it. With all the back-biting, carping, flaming, and insults that go on here, the signal just gets lost in the noise.

We (the regular posters on this thread) have a WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE about NORJAK, we just don’t have a parliamentarian to keep us in order (that’s NOT quade’s job) or a recording secretary to keep a history of the things we decide.

At any rate, we DO know what map was used for the plot of the FBI LZ.


Edit:
Here is a direct link to the LZ Map (in color).

{Meanwhile the original NWA (black & white) map produced by Solderlind etal was never questioned and, we never knew what map that was laid on.}

I should have said:

Meanwhile the original NWA (black & white) map produced by Solderlind etal was never questioned and, we never known HOW and WHO laid that map on the la Center Quadrangle topo map.

The Map says "La Center Quadrangle" in the upper
left hand corner.

You retitled that map the "1972 FBI Jump Zone Map" on your website. I have always called this map the NWA Probability map because so far as I know NWA made the map and the map was accompanied by two sheet of explanations including probability
estimates for Cooper jumping in different zones ...




.

[AncestralManor 0]

CAVA, CAVA!

Ignore even the FBI interpretations. Get back to basics with original sources. Published reports by FBI folks like Himmelsbach, Tosaw, Ckret (Larry Carr) etc differ widely.

Captain Scott is reported long ago to have said that the FBI flight path was wrong.

Is there any source that documents any radar tracking of the flight?

Whether you are looking at the maps templates for 1954, 1971 or later - those maps were developed independent of the Cooper case. They are original sources with primary information.

What are other original sources of primary information that independently converge on any theory?

What can we analyze by source quality on a scale of

KNOWN LIKELY POSSIBLE UNLIKELY IMPOSSIBLE UNKNOWN ?

Limiting the problem by finding a focus means that it is much more solvable.

Creating a time line with discrete components for each part of the analysis helps maintain the focus.

WHO WHAT WHEN WHERE HOW WHY ?


Exactly where were the placard and money found?

Is there anything else that pins the flight path to map analysis?

Anything in the publicly available flight communications transcript?

Joe Friday wants just the facts for now.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

AncestralManor,


Yes, I agree. BUT……….

Why don’t you take the reins on this issue? In the past I have attempted to do this sort of thing, but due to some basic element(s) of my personality, I have been unable to carry it off (make it work). Some accuse me of being patriarchal, some accuse me of being condescending to other (less informed) posters, some just like to see me fail. So, now it’s time for you to “step up to the batter’s box.” Remember; “Many are cold, but few are frozen” (Or something like that!).

Here are my point-by-point’ responses:

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AncestralManor Said: CAVA, CAVA!

Yes, let’s get back to CAVA, you tabulate where we are now and introduce the next CAVA Question. (Note: Be sure to be all inclusive and don’t piss anyone off.)

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AncestralManor Said: Ignore even the FBI interpretations. Get back to basics with original sources. Published reports by FBI folks like Himmelsbach, Tosaw, Ckret (Larry Carr) etc differ widely.

So, cite even one “original source.” In over thirty years, I have yet to find one.

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AncestralManor Said: Captain Scott is reported long ago to have said that the FBI flight path was wrong.

Was that straight out of Bill Scott’s mouth or from an “Original Source?”

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AncestralManor Said: Is there any source that documents any radar tracking of the flight?

Yes, there is a still-living witness who was a radar operator following the flight. He says: “They were never significantly off of Victor-23.” He wishes to remain anonymous and does not want his name published. So good luck with your citation(s). (Sluggo Note: He said V-23, not V-23 E or V-23 W. The flight was cleared for V-23.)

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AncestralManor Said: Whether you are looking at the maps templates for 1954, 1971 or later - those maps were developed independent of the Cooper case. They are original sources with primary information.

Ahh! So, now I understand “Original Source.” I have more maps (historical and otherwise) that you can shake as stick at, but, I can’t get them to tell me a damned thing!

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AncestralManor Said: What are other original sources of primary information that independently converge on any theory?

Duh? I don’t know. Eyewitnesses maybe? Not Himmelsbach, he has a theory. Maybe if we could find Cooper, he would clue us in. But probably not.

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AncestralManor Said: What can we analyze by source quality on a scale of

KNOWN LIKELY POSSIBLE UNLIKELY IMPOSSIBLE UNKNOWN ?

I tried that, didn’t work… maybe because of my personality and approach (see above).

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AncestralManor Said: Limiting the problem by finding a focus means that it is much more solvable.

Okay, find a focus and get everyone (or most everyone) to agree and stick to it. (Like the CAVA process.)

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AncestralManor Said: Creating a time line with discrete components for each part of the analysis helps maintain the focus.

WHO WHAT WHEN WHERE HOW WHY ?

Ditto from the above.

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AncestralManor Said: Exactly where were the placard and money found?

Most descriptions are something like this: “15 miles NW of the search area,” or “On the side of Brokeback Ridge”. I don’t think the finder(s) could have told you exactly where they found it. They didn’t say to themselves; “WOW! We found a placard from Flt. 305! This will be important, we need to remember where we are!” They thought it was a candy wrapper and didn’t read it until they were putting it into the trash.

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AncestralManor Said: Is there anything else that pins the flight path to map analysis?

A few “low-value” eyewitnesses that thought they heard a plane overhead. They came out of the woodwork initially and then again in recent years.

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AncestralManor Said: Anything in the publicly available flight communications transcript?

You’ve seen it… I’ve seen it… NWA (now Delta) is still sitting on unpublished info, but I haven’t been able to get access to it.

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AncestralManor Said: Joe Friday wants just the facts for now.

You and Ruby Tuesday too!




Seriously, I’m sorry if this seems overly cynical. It started out to be an attempt at humor… but it triggered all my frustrations. I have thought of all of this in the past and been thwarted at every turn.

The only solution I can see is to ask President Obama to appoint a panel (committee) of citizens, give them subpoena powers, and make the FBI, and NWA open up their records. (Oh yeah… include the CIA to make skyjack71 happy).

I don’t think there’s much chance of that happening.

Thank you (all) for the opportunity to vent my frustration. Now I’m going to go ride my bicycle and see if I can wear down some of my other stress builders.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I’m gonna need the help of some “wrinkled, old-fart, pilots”.

I got the Legend off of the L-2 Side of the Low Altitude IFR chart from 1971 posted on my site, but there are a lot of terms that I may need help understanding. [See it here]

Not that any of this will find Cooper, but it will help me with “aviation history”.


For example what do these things mean?

DOD FLIP Terminal?

“A” Quadrant?

Consola Station?

Bone Marker Beacon?

Fan Marker Beacon?

CMSN?

Frequency Protection (T)?

Flight Information Region (FIR)?

Okay, what do you "old wrinkles" have to say? Guru312, quade, Bueller… Bueller… anyone?

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[377 22]

I think you mean CONSOLAN:

A long-range low frequency directional navigation system that transmits a slowly rotating keyed radio field pattern; an American version of the German Sonne and British Consol, using two radiators instead of three to minimize night-effect errors. No special equipment other than a receiver is needed to use CONSOLAN. The keyed ID of the CONSOLAN radial can be heard in headphones or loudpeaker and then looked up on a chart.

CONSOLAN is no longer used to the best of my knowledge.

A marker beacon is a particular type of low frequency radio beacon used in aviation, usually in conjunction with an instrument landing system (ILS), to give pilots a means to determine position along an established route to a destination such as a runway. From the 1930s until the 1950s, markers were used extensively along airways to provide an indication of an aircraft's specific position along the route, but from the 1960s they have become increasingly limited to ILS approach installations. They are now very gradually being phased out of service, especially in more developed parts of the world, as GPS and other technologies have made marker beacons increasingly obsolete.

A FAN MARKER beacon can be used along an airway or departure route, or it for a final approach fix on an localizer back course. It is located in a location similar to the outer marker only on the back course or opposite end of the runway served by the primary ILS. The name comes from the fan shape of the horizontal cross-section of the valid signal area. Several other shapes, such as BONE MARKER, were used for airway marker beacons in earlier eras of aviation. These markers transmitted specific single morse code letters to differentiate the several installations along a given airway, but this application has now been virtually abandoned.

DOD FLIP: Department of Defense Flight Information Publications used for flight planning, en route, and terminal operations. FLIP is produced by the National Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA) for world-wide use.

“A” QUADRANT: The low-frequency radio range (LFR), also known as the four-course radio range, LF/MF four-course radio range, A-N radio range, Adcock radio range, or commonly "the range", was the main navigation system used by aircraft for instrument flying in the 1930s and 1940s, until the advent of the VHF omnidirectional range (VOR), beginning in the late 1940s. It was used for en route navigation as well as instrument approaches and holds. Based on a network of radio towers which transmitted directional radio signals, the LFR defined specific airways in the sky. Pilots navigated the LFR by listening to a stream of automated "A" and "N" Morse codes. For example, they would turn the aircraft to the right when hearing an "N" stream ("dah-dit, dah-dit, ..."), to the left when hearing an "A" stream ("di-dah, di-dah, ..."), and fly straight ahead while hearing a steady tone. The A Quadrant refers to the sector in which the morse code letter
"A" (di dah) is heard.


377

(used answer.com and wikipedia for some of above info)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 256]

“A” QUADRANT: The low-frequency radio range (LFR), also known as the four-course radio range, LF/MF four-course radio range, A-N radio range, Adcock radio range, or commonly "the range", was the main navigation system used by aircraft for instrument flying in the 1930s and 1940s, until the advent of the VHF omnidirectional range (VOR), beginning in the late 1940s. It was used for en route navigation as well as instrument approaches and holds. Based on a network of radio towers which transmitted directional radio signals, the LFR defined specific airways in the sky. Pilots navigated the LFR by listening to a stream of automated "A" and "N" Morse codes. For example, they would turn the aircraft to the right when hearing an "N" stream ("dah-dit, dah-dit, ..."), to the left when hearing an "A" stream ("di-dah, di-dah, ..."), and fly straight ahead while hearing a steady tone. The A Quadrant refers to the sector in which the morse code letter
"A" (di dah) is heard.


377

[georger 256]

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AncestralManor Said: Is there any source that documents any radar tracking of the flight?

Yes, there is a still-living witness who was a radar operator following the flight. He says: “They were never significantly off of Victor-23.”

+

NWA (now Delta) is still sitting on unpublished info, but I haven’t been able to get access to it.

[georger 256]

WHO WHAT WHEN WHERE HOW WHY ?

[Mr.Nuke 0]

Haven't checked in for awhile, but even this "younger" pilot knows what a FIR (and frequency protection) is. In its simplest forum a Flight Information Region is a defined space where alerting and information services are provided.

Frequency Protection refers to terminal or "T-VORs." T-VOR's have a substandard area protected from interference compared to regular VOR stations. Your average VOR may provide accurate information for say 100 nm, while a T-VOR as the key shows is only accurate for 25 nm at 12,000 feet.

[georger 256]

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Haven't checked in for awhile, but even this "younger" pilot knows what a FIR (and frequency protection) is. In its simplest forum a Flight Information Region is a defined space where alerting and information services are provided.

Frequency Protection refers to terminal or "T-VORs." T-VOR's have a substandard area protected from interference compared to regular VOR stations. Your average VOR may provide accurate information for say 100 nm, while a T-VOR as the key shows is only accurate for 25 nm at 12,000 feet.

The lack of reply may mean you have hurt Sluggo's "feelings"; or he is just too busy too reply.

The key to this is: there are some people who ask questions (with an idea already in mind) who dont really want answers. You have to taylor your response to the individual, but that formula may
not be easily apparent.

We have a lot of that around here -

Maybe a review of the maps in play would be
helpful at this point. But only Sluggo can do that
so again .... wait for the magic moment.

I have a feeling something is going on behind the
scenes. Too many of the right people have suddenly vanished.

[georger 256]

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AncestralManor Said: Is there any source that documents any radar tracking of the flight?

Yes, there is a still-living witness who was a radar operator following the flight. He says: “They were never significantly off of Victor-23.” He wishes to remain anonymous and does not want his name published.

[georger 256]

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AncestralManor Said: Is there any source that documents any radar tracking of the flight?

Yes, there is a still-living witness who was a radar operator following the flight. He says: “They were never significantly off of Victor-23.” He wishes to remain anonymous and does not want his name published.

Will he allow his location to be cited, because
as you well-know there are people who say your "witness" is not credible and quoting: "this
is all bullshit".

so a little background for your announcement might
have been in order?

You knew in advance this was going to be provocative
so some provenance might have been in order?

Or, maybe you do have a discovery which you and
you alone (and 377) will keep from the world until
time to use it as you see fit.

I apologise for my arrogance in asking a simple
question!

[dule_savic 1]

hey guys
can we start this Cooper thing from the beginning. I cant read all this stuff.
So, there was once this guy...

[quade 4]

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hey guys
can we start this Cooper thing from the beginning. I cant read all this stuff.
So, there was once this guy...

If you want simple, go to wikipedia. If you're into idle prater arguing over vaguely related minutia, you've found the right spot. Neither has an actual solution.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

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hey guys
can we start this Cooper thing from the beginning. I cant read all this stuff.
So, there was once this guy...

If you want simple, go to wikipedia. If you're into idle prater arguing over vaguely related minutia, you've found the right spot. Neither has an actual solution.

There never will be a solution... until time travel becomes a reality so someone interested in minutia can go back and watch the event unfold

[quade 4]

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There never will be a solution...

I probably wouldn't speak in absolute terms about this case never being solved, but I do see it as being extremely unlikely.

If somebody found a crater, some bones and some hardware all in the same place, I'd certainly be interested in the results. However, unless that happens, I just don't see any definitive solution being possible at this point.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ryoder 1,590]

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hey guys
can we start this Cooper thing from the beginning. I cant read all this stuff.
So, there was once this guy...

All explained here: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0364751/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[skyjack71 0]

Maps, Transcripts, flight Path, Place Card, Bones, Old Chute and other things.

Try these names on for size:
Don't go by the spelling, but go by sounds like and try to figure this out!

Any of these names mean anything to any of the old timers and / or military - do you know if they are living? What do you know about their background?

1.Bursworth (no first name) and not sure of spelling.

2. Ron Clark

3. Harry Richards - Oklahoma

4. Bob (Robt) Cupil or Cupal - again not sure of spelling.

5. Kenneth Meeks.

6. Bill Munson (could be Munsen)

7. Walt Pointenvent (again not sure of spelling ...but sounds like).

8. Flights from Salt Lake to Alaska???

9. Ignore the ages of these guys in 1971 --- but, what were they doing during 1958 - 1971? Who are they - what is their connection to the Northwest? What is their background? Are they dead or alive.

Now if there is anyone out there serious about investigating Cooper - TALK. I will only listen, Remember the picture Duane Weber had me take of a man in Salt Lake City - the picture of a man he requested I take and the goofy outfit he was wearing.

Duane mentioned something specific during the Salt Lake trip in 1979. I told Himmelsbach about this in 1976 and (when I was talking to Himmelsbach I assumed he told the FBI everything I said).

Talk about a tree falling in the wilderness - if there is no living being to hear it - did it actually make a sound? No offense to Himmelsbach, because I love him dearly for putting up with me for all of these yrs - no way he could absorb everything this neurotic crazy old woman rattled off...as I reinterated my memories to him. I filed these key words in my tapes and my memories - things no one wanted to hear.

Perhaps this contact is another curve in the search - but this person could NOT know the key words I have been looking for.
I am NOT able to sit at the computer and research these things - you guys hold a wealth of abilities and if anyone of you really want to find out who Cooper was - help us out with this. None of these guys are Cooper, but they may be connected to the background of Cooper...unknowingly or indirectly.

Remember the FBI never revealed their suspect list or the individuals they did not or could not - investigate.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 256]

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Maps, Transcripts, flight Path, Place Card, Bones, Old Chute and other things.

You really need to do something about that
scary avatar - looks Schizophrenic!

I hear you were turned down for a documentary?

[skyjack71 0]

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Maps, Transcripts, flight Path, Place Card, Bones, Old Chute and other things.

You really need to do something about that
scary avatar - looks Schizophrenic!

I hear you were turned down for a documentary?

News to me! - I have not talked to anyone about a documentary.
National Geo - the one where they simulated the jump contacted me when they were collecting their data, but I refused to participate other than to provide them with information. I did NOT want to be photographed, filmed or exploited...and the compromised DNA was an issue with me at that time...therefore it was a pass. Is this what you were referring to?
My "conditions" were NOT acceptable!

Did you see the photo of Tina they used in Blevins book? This is one I had not seen. Better compare that photo to my " little girl" photo that was in the gold book. Maybe the FBI should have analyzed " a fragment" of that gold book instead of asking me to "mail" them the book. Maybe the rightful owner has already claimed to it...maybe my drop in WA paid off.

Question - If you found money and gold in an old car you bought and did not report it and the FBI knocks on your door 2 yrs later - what would you do?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

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Question - If you found money and gold in an old car you bought and did not report it and the FBI knocks on your door 2 yrs later - what would you do?

I'd exercise my 5th Amendment right to remain silent. Without some dumb admission they'd have a tough time getting a search warrant or having cause for arrest. Silence, literally in this case, is golden.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.