DB Cooper

[airtwardo 7]

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Only a small number of 727s, probably less than five but almost certainly not more than 10, were used for dropping parachutists and other items prior to the hijacking.

'Probably' & 'almost certainly' sound like guesses, do you have factual information with which you base those assumptions?

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Cooper's technical knowledge of the 727 indicated that he had participated in such operations directly and had not just gained that information in hangar flying or bull sessions.

I'm looking at a 727 manual that was my wife's when she was a 727 driver...from the information contained within, were I suitably motivated I could easily author a usable checklist to facilitate an in-air op such as was done by Cooper.

Since each 727 flight crew has 3 people in it all with a manual, and each 727 has several crews, and each airline flying 727's had several of them in the fleet...I would offer that the 'knowledge' of how to do this was actually QUITE available.

...not to mention the multitude of maintenance manuals at every FBO at every airport in the world serviced by 727's...both flight crew and maintenance manuals that were being used at the time, and the discarded ones that were constantly being updated, add up to literally thousands of possible sources to reference.

One really only needed to have the idea & will to research possible ways.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skyjack71 0]

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In addition, your reference to Duane & Bu Dop
1968-9 was rather specific, tease or not! That is military. That was just one more false path you
have taken people down ... in a long list of same.

I showed the pictures that were in the magazine he left in a SAFE DEPOSIT BOX and nothing else. I asked for explanations of why he would leave only that one thing in a safe deposit box.

The date of the magazine was December 1994 and in March of 1995 he died...why leave that one thing? Why did he show me another article yrs before that - an article that had 3 of the SAME pictures?

Why was one of the pictures the same as the painting on Tony's wall? Who was Tony and how did the 2 of them know each other? The conversation indicated they knew each other from this camp in the painting? This was not an interment camp - this was a camp to keep someone out and not contain them? I noted that in the painting and I have a phenomenal memory.

If you think I am claiming or disclaiming anything - then find this ONE thing. Find out who Tony was and what that painting was about - then you will find the background of Duane Weber or whoever he was in those days.

The FBI could have done this.
If they did - why not make it known to me to get rid of me. Both Tommy and Tony are both deceased now, but they were both alive when I first contacted the FBI. Tommy and Duane and Tony had a past. Tommy is the one who told me to forget everything I knew and to destroy everything I had found and not to ever look back if I wanted to be around to play with my grand kids, because Duane knew people in HIGH places.

THE FBI never ever investigated any of this...and if they did - they kept it a big secret when an explanation of this might have proved to me and others that Duane was not Cooper. Can you do that "Professor"?

Don't grand stand on a forum stating I said this or that - put your money where your mouth is - prove I am wrong about this camp - be it BuDop or another similar kind of camp.,..and you do that by finding out about Tony and Tommy. Now rather than sprouting off your mouth - put your money and time where the FBI did not.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 244]

I'm looking at a 727 manual that was my wife's when she was a 727 driver...from the information contained within, were I suitably motivated I could easily author a usable checklist to facilitate an in-air op such as was done by Cooper.

Since each 727 flight crew has 3 people in it all with a manual, and each 727 has several crews, and each airline flying 727's had several of them in the fleet...I would offer that the 'knowledge' of how to do this was actually QUITE available.

...not to mention the multitude of maintenance manuals at every FBO at every airport in the world serviced by 727's...both flight crew and maintenance manuals that were being used at the time, and the discarded ones that were constantly being updated, add up to literally thousands of possible sources to reference.

One really only needed to have the idea & will to research possible ways.

[airtwardo 7]

Neither Wilbur, Orville or the kid with the spoon can turn dead dinosaurs into noise at 37,000 feet!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skyjack71 0]

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Since each 727 flight crew has 3 people in it all with a manual, and each 727 has several crews, and each airline flying 727's had several of them in the fleet...I would offer that the 'knowledge' of how to do this was actually QUITE available.

...not to mention the multitude of maintenance manuals at every FBO at every airport in the world serviced by 727's...both flight crew and maintenance manuals that were being used at the time, and the discarded ones that were constantly being updated, add up to literally thousands of possible sources to reference.

One really only needed to have the idea & will to research possible ways.

I will add another possibililty and it did NOT require anything, but common sense. You mentioned maintenance workers, but cleaning crews and those making the catering deliveries also use those aft stairs. Duane and his wife of the time both worked for one of the companies for a period of 2 wks.

If the FBI was so inclined they could have verified this...when I told them about it. All they had to do was follow the wife's work record if they didn't want to trail John Collins...she was the beacon light they ignored in locating Duane's whereabout from 1962 until 1972. Yes, he did leave her for periods of time and come back to get her - but that was usually with family..and he would be gone for as long as 2 wks to 6 wks.

I will remind you that the wife and history and family put Duane in 2 places at one time.

The wife said they were in WA at a convention.
The government said he was in Jefferson.
A family member placed Duane and his wife in WA.

So everyone is lieing! I was told she seldom worked during her ys with Duane except in Atlanta and brief jobs here and there in the various places they lived. Who was John Collins in Omaha, Nebraska. John Collins had a safe deposit box in 1980, but the FBI told me they would be unable to access those records - yet, he didn't close that box until 1990. Oh that's right John Collins didn't exist in 1980 - 1990, but Duane Weber made a foregoing effort to obtain his John Collins ID in 1990. Did he need that picture license ID - to access a safe deposit box under that name? WHY 1980 TO 1990?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 50]

There is information online listing the Air America 727s that were used in southeast Asia. And that number was only about three or four if I remember correctly. Assuming that there were other contractors who operated 727s in the same manner, the total number would be higher but there was not a great number of 727s used in this manner.

In your listing of all the "possible" flight personnel who could have figured out how to jump from a 727, you would have to exclude NWA since they didn't know that the rear steps could even be lowered in flight until Boeing personnel told them. How many of the flight personnel you mentioned had even thought about lowering the steps in flight prior to the hijacking?

How did Cooper know that only the rear steps on the 727 could be lowered in flight and not the steps on other aircraft such as the DC-9? According to Tosaw, Cooper told Tina Mucklow that he knew that the 727 could take off with those steps down. Cooper gave the crew specific flap settings and airspeeds. All of this "suggests" that Cooper was familiar with the 727, knew what he was talking about, and "probably" had first hand experience and knowledge on the aircraft.

[airtwardo 7]

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In your listing of all the "possible" flight personnel who could have figured out how to jump from a 727, you would have to exclude NWA since they didn't know that the rear steps could even be lowered in flight until Boeing personnel told them. How many of the flight personnel you mentioned had even thought about lowering the steps in flight prior to the hijacking?

Well...I can't go into detail regarding what any particular group had knowledge of, other than to say there was written materials available outlining systems & procedures pertaining to flying and landing the aircraft in various possible and almost unimaginable configurations.

That information was disseminated as an emergency procedure, it was available, and more than likely at the time, no one ever thought it would be possible to use it to successfully facilitate a hijacking for profit...much the same way it was once inconceivable that in the wrong hands, supposedly 'classified' cockpit procedural information and a box cutter could bring down the world trade center.


Theoretically speaking~

Wouldn't it be 'possible' that some neerdowell
...ole 'Joe Shit the rag-man' who had some balls, some brains, some mechanical aptitude, maybe some military or civilian jump experience and who knows, possibly even some friend of bar room friend that worked for the company in Laos, who mentioned to Joe off-hand at one time, something about 727 drops...and bang, ole jumpin' Joe had a light-bulb moment?

Joe hates the rag business and gets to thinking 'out of the box', he does some research and puts two & two together coming up with 200,000.

What I'm getting at is that trying to put a definitive face on the rag-man using 'profiler' tendencies has been and will continue to be an exercise in futility.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[georger 244]

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There is information online listing the Air America 727s that were used in southeast Asia. And that number was only about three or four if I remember correctly. Assuming that there were other contractors who operated 727s in the same manner, the total number would be higher but there was not a great number of 727s used in this manner.

In your listing of all the "possible" flight personnel who could have figured out how to jump from a 727, you would have to exclude NWA since they didn't know that the rear steps could even be lowered in flight until Boeing personnel told them. How many of the flight personnel you mentioned had even thought about lowering the steps in flight prior to the hijacking?

How did Cooper know that only the rear steps on the 727 could be lowered in flight and not the steps on other aircraft such as the DC-9? According to Tosaw, Cooper told Tina Mucklow that he knew that the 727 could take off with those steps down. Cooper gave the crew specific flap settings and airspeeds. All of this "suggests" that Cooper was familiar with the 727, knew what he was talking about, and "probably" had first hand experience and knowledge on the aircraft.

Some of your assertions are broad sweeping generalisations which you have no data to support
or answer:

(1) NWA since they didn't know that the rear steps could even be lowered in flight until Boeing personnel told them.

(2) How many of the flight personnel you mentioned had even thought about lowering the steps in flight prior to the hijacking?

(3) How did Cooper know that only the rear steps on the 727 could be lowered in flight and not the steps on other aircraft such as the DC-9?
[Cooper said nothing about DC9's ???]

(4) According to Tosaw, Cooper told Tina Mucklow that he knew that the 727 could take off with those steps down. [Rat told Cooper this was not possible and Cooper did not question this and backed down.
So why would Cooper tell Tina this and then elt Rat
talk him out of it? ]

(5) How many of the flight personnel you mentioned had even thought about lowering the steps in flight prior to the hijacking? [Answer: 50431.3 ... Gallup
did a survey for CBS news! ?]

Because: if what you say is true it would have been
a fairly short path to digging Cooper out, and that
we know did not happen in spite of investigations
along the very lines you suggest.

Now what?

I could make an equal or more compelling argument
based on actual evidence (simple as it is!) that
Cooper was from the Salt Lake area and heard of
McCoy's intentions to hijack a 727 (off the rear stairs), stayed quiet, and beat McCoy to the punch
after a hijacking had already occurred a short time earlier. (McCoy waited several months for things to quiet down before going through with his plan ...
McCoy then "refused" any comment about the Cooper hijacking, according to Agent Calame. Refused? You can read a lot into "refused" just
as you have read a lot of assumptions into yours, above)

[Orange1 0]

twardo/georger, if you remember the transcripts, it is patently clear that the NWA personnel did not know the steps could be lowered in flight. i 'll go back and check, but i'm not even sure the initial contacts at boeing knew either - there was a bit of to-and-fro before they were told that yes it could be done.

robert, can you give us the url re listing the 727s that were jumped in Asia?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[airtwardo 7]

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twardo/georger, if you remember the transcripts, it is patently clear that the NWA personnel did not know the steps could be lowered in flight. i 'll go back and check, but i'm not even sure the initial contacts at boeing knew either - there was a bit of to-and-fro before they were told that yes it could be done.

robert, can you give us the url re listing the 727s that were jumped in Asia?

It would be interesting to know who 'actually' knew 'what'...

keep in mind part of the anti-hijack protocol at the time was to #1 get or keep the aircraft on the ground...then make up reasons to delay everything.

How pilots & tower personnel were trained to do that is in part with mis-information...
~We're out of fuel, plane doesn't have the range for Cuba, engine #2 is leaking, flaps are non-op...on & on.

I wonder how much of what was being said was a stall tactic?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[georger 244]

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it is patently clear that the NWA personnel did not know the steps could be lowered in flight. i 'll go back and check,

could not or should not ? I dont think it had come up for this crew before - Rat could comment about that today.

[georger 244]

I wonder how much of what was being said was a stall tactic?

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

I wonder how much of what was being said was a stall tactic?

Ive wondered the same thing.
Ive also wondered about this 20 minute gap in
the transcript immediately after Cooper bailed ...
which has been explained away as a communication
problem (perfectly timed).

They flew through the alien 'tractor beam'...




...that's why DB was never found!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

I wonder how much of what was being said was a stall tactic?

Ive wondered the same thing.
Ive also wondered about this 20 minute gap in
the transcript immediately after Cooper bailed ...
which has been explained away as a communication
problem (perfectly timed).

They flew through the alien 'tractor beam'...
...that's why DB was never found!

something like that ... what continually nags me
is I dont think we are in a good position to judge
many of these things, for lack of data. It could
be exactly as Orange says, but we don;t know.
We can;t know due to lack of context. These
questions may never be settled. Remember what
Labrys said: OUTLINES and possibly never anything
else. Its a viscious cycle of uncertainty...

[Robert99 50]

First, let me say that I didn't say what these aircraft were used for in southeast Asia. That comes from other sources after the hijacking.

The original article I saw was either referred to me by Sluggo or maybe I found the url on this forum (maybe from a post by you?).

Anyway, I have just googled "Air America: Boeing 727s" and found an updated version of the article. The link is .

The article was written by Dr. Joe F. Leeker and was last updated on June 1, 2009. It is now six pages long.

Robert

[georger 244]

Quote

First, let me say that I didn't say what these aircraft were used for in southeast Asia. That comes from other sources after the hijacking.

The original article I saw was either referred to me by Sluggo or maybe I found the url on this forum (maybe from a post by you?).

Anyway, I have just googled "Air America: Boeing 727s" and found an updated version of the article. The link is .

The article was written by Dr. Joe F. Leeker and was last updated on June 1, 2009. It is now six pages long.

Robert

Ah ... so Cooper was a subscriber to Popular Mechanics?

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

Quote

First, let me say that I didn't say what these aircraft were used for in southeast Asia. That comes from other sources after the hijacking.

The original article I saw was either referred to me by Sluggo or maybe I found the url on this forum (maybe from a post by you?).

Anyway, I have just googled "Air America: Boeing 727s" and found an updated version of the article. The link is .

The article was written by Dr. Joe F. Leeker and was last updated on June 1, 2009. It is now six pages long.

Robert

Ah ... so Cooper was a subscriber to Popular Mechanics?

Wouldn't it be more in keeping with his M.O. to just steal 'em?

False lead...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[JerryThomas 0]

airtwardo.Your right about his MO and he was good at it too. But he still fell to his death.Good point about the money bag wrapping around him. Fact being the cord he used was to short for that to have happened. Also I do believe that the pilots refused to take off with the air stairs deployed.You are all right the info cooper had available to him in order to pull this off was available to all. Jerry

[skyjack71 0]

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Theoretically speaking~

Wouldn't it be 'possible' that some neerdowell
...ole 'Joe Shit the rag-man' who had some balls, some brains, some mechanical aptitude, maybe some military or civilian jump experience and who knows, possibly even some friend of bar room friend that worked for the company in Laos, who mentioned to Joe off-hand at one time, something about 727 drops...and bang, ole jumpin' Joe had a light-bulb moment?

There were lots of the " Light Bulb" moments in the prisons in the late 60's. Speculation about how to do the "Big One" often involved hijacking. These kinds of conversations behind cell walls are the reason the FBI received so many calls especially from Jefferson and per Himmelsbach other prisons also.

Local FBI agents in these areas where sent to verify these multiple contacts but, Himmelsbach never discussed the results with me. Only stated they were conducted by local FBI in the area of the prison. A large amount of those leads tracked to Coffelt (a name seldom mention in the Cooper arena and one that all but disappeared from the archived files). I am one of the very few who has speculated about Coffelt's involvement in recent yrs and his name came up immediately after I found out who Dan Cooper was.

I discounted his story when ALL of the information about him was revealed but, within the last 2 yrs I have learned even more about Coffelt - I had been seeking this for 12 yrs when I was given the opportunity to discuss Coffelt with a well known investigative individual of the day...who had intense files (written and video)on Coffelt. His argument along with his continued "other" information was compelling, but I am still not convinced Coffelt was involved other than he knew who Cooper was or could have been - he just did not know his REAL name.

Airtwardo - there is something hauntingly familiar about this statement you made and I will repeat it so you will know exactly what I am referring to:

"ole 'Joe Shit the rag-man' who had some balls, some brains, some mechanical aptitude, maybe some military or civilian jump experience and who knows, possibly even some friend of bar room friend that worked for the company in Laos, who mentioned to Joe off-hand at one time, something about 727 drops...and bang, ole jumpin' Joe had a light-bulb moment?"

Can you explain why this senario is very familiar to me or have you stumbled onto something? You see I PLAY dumb lots of time and put things out there hoping someday - it will stick in someone's crawl. An affilition of someone I have mentioned in "my Cooper story" as Jerry calls, it did exactly that - worked in Laos as a civilian, but somehow connected to the military (I don't understand how this works).

I will give you an example of what I am trying to say. Supplies were distributed and someone handled those supplies - there were bars and someone handled that - I didn't understand the affiliation with the military, because I thought the mililtary handle ALL of the "action" in military camps.

I am sure NO ONE wants to know what Jo has to say, but at least I am trying to MAKE all I know available so hopefully someone will find the pieces of the puzzle someday. It is guaranteed I won't be here, if and when that happens. I don't think anyone would understand what is in my files except me and I do expect that when I die - the key to who Cooper really was will die with me.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

twardo/georger, if you remember the transcripts, it is patently clear that the NWA personnel did not know the steps could be lowered in flight. i 'll go back and check, but i'm not even sure the initial contacts at boeing knew either - there was a bit of to-and-fro before they were told that yes it could be done.

robert, can you give us the url re listing the 727s that were jumped in Asia?

It would be interesting to know who 'actually' knew 'what'...

keep in mind part of the anti-hijack protocol at the time was to #1 get or keep the aircraft on the ground...then make up reasons to delay everything.

How pilots & tower personnel were trained to do that is in part with mis-information...
~We're out of fuel, plane doesn't have the range for Cuba, engine #2 is leaking, flaps are non-op...on & on.

I wonder how much of what was being said was a stall tactic?

twardo, are you saying the pilots were being fed misinformation to keep them on the ground? this transcript wasn't what cooper was hearing - these were between the plane and NWA, and between the plane and ATC. i can't remember where i've saved the darn things now (possibly not transferred from old PC) but from what i recall they sounded genuinely confused and unsure about the whole thing. guess will have to download from FBI again...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Robert99 50]

The communication transcripts are available on Sluggo's web page.

Robert

[377 22]

Quote

I wonder how much of what was being said was a stall tactic?

Ive wondered the same thing.
Ive also wondered about this 20 minute gap in
the transcript immediately after Cooper bailed ...
which has been explained away as a comunication
problem (perfectly timed).

[JerryThomas 0]

377. Never realy knew this was ever an isue it's been will known and publizized for years since the hyjacking in71.It was made public back then. Jerry

[airtwardo 7]

twardo, are you saying the pilots were being fed misinformation to keep them on the ground? this transcript wasn't what cooper was hearing - these were between the plane and NWA, and between the plane and ATC

[airtwardo 7]

Airtwardo - there is something hauntingly familiar about this statement you made and I will repeat it so you will know exactly what I am referring to:

"ole 'Joe Shit the rag-man' who had some balls, some brains, some mechanical aptitude, maybe some military or civilian jump experience and who knows, possibly even some friend of a bar room friend that worked for the company in Laos, who mentioned to Joe off-hand at one time, something about 727 drops...and bang, ole jumpin' Joe had a light-bulb moment?"

Can you explain why this senario is very familiar to me or have you stumbled onto something?

Ummm...gulp.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~