DB Cooper

[georger 244]

Quote

Georger says in part:

Quote

'So you did look it up, how else would you say
"its YOUR odds"? So why are you presenting it as your idea? A little plagarism maybe?

What it means is your plan is to pilfer and take
over this group.

Wasnt that your original mission coming here?'

Are you kidding me? There are like 450+ pages of stuff on this thread. No, I didn't 'look it up'. I LIVE in Washington, and even a dummy like me knows there's a lot more ground down below than rivers.

It was common sense to say the odds were against a water landing.

Pilfering? Plagiarism is both stupid and illegal. Everyone knows I like Cory Doctorow, but I also respect copyright completely.

Sure as a purely random event the 'randomised odds' favour land mass vs water. But the time
and place of the drop affect the odds, dont they?
And the specific event we are interested in is
the DROP, not the whole damned flight - correct?
So the calculation of odds must concern only that
portion of the flight where a DROP may occur -
correct? That, as it happens, changes the ratio of
land mass to water (area) under or near the
plane. Correct?

One early calculation (by X) in fact had a rather
large estimate Cooper landed in Lake Merwin so
they dragged Lake Merwin first (or very nearly first)?

The closer the drop zone moves toward
Columbia, in the selected drop time frame,
the higher the probability of a water or water-basin
landing, based on the ratio of land to water in that
window. Correct?

So, your: "It was common sense to say the
odds were against a water landing." turns out to
be nonapplicable in any meaningful application?

As for your jumping in with your lecture without
knowing why I was even bringing up a water
drop issue, ie as context to something else
you cut off from being discussed, it is a bit premature on your part dont you think? I
realise you arent a mind reader but Maybe
you should listen more and talk less?

I am really tired of your lectures and having to respond to your attacks. Go bicker with somebody
else for a change ???

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Jumpers: Look at that oversized chest rig in the attached photo. What is it?

It could very easily be one of the C-9 chest mount bailout containers where the aircrew wore a harness but not the parachute due to space limitations on some aircraft types and they would snap on the chest mount to the 2 D rings on the harness if a problem with the aircraft arose. They were pretty common on some of the large aircraft in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

I had one of those when I first started in the early 70's that had been modified into my very first reserve. AS a young financially strapped service member the fancy sport gear was just out of reach price wise, so many of us had surplus GI gear with modified surplus military canopies like the C-9 or a T-10 with a 5 TU or 7 TU or other cut.

Almost all of the DZ's I frequented back in the day used that kind of gear for students. The Seattle Skydivers Club at Snohomish still had a bunch of that stuff and I got to jump some a few years ago in 2003 at the Green Meet... CRAP those things seem to come down faster than I remembered

http://seattleskydivers.org/v/events/greenmeet03/

[Farflung 0]

The video Amazon posted of the BASE jumper that ‘survived’ a 500 foot drop is stunning to watch.

This video was one of two incidents involving chutes malfing big time in a couple days. Both jumpers actually survived and have officially overdrawn their ‘lucked out’ accounts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osQJUA76IOM&feature=watch_response

There was a lengthy technical discussion about how this was a five way with a pair of TARD overs (?) and some guy who got low holding the others (?) PCs and twisted the bridle. Ummm…. Not sure what PC could be; Personal Computer, Politically Correct or Pilot Chute. Don’t wanna guess here. But it was a long and complex process which barely consumed six seconds, real time.

Apparently these guys wear body armor and this was given as a possible source for the snag. Technology giveth then taketh awayeth.

There were medics and Life Flight choppers responding within seconds where both individuals were transported to the ICU in Boise with broken backs and battered lungs. Yes they survived, but under optimum conditions.

People were given the name of the hospital to send donations for the chopper’s service and wish the jumpers a speedy recovery. One of them was named…. Of course… Cooper.

http://www.basejumper.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2248776;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Some pretty amazing analysis on the thread (last comment first page). Has nothing to do with D B Cooper but may serve as an analogy for something Copperesque.

[Robert99 50]

Does anyone know of information existing in the skydiving community for predicting the forward travel of a jumper after exiting the aircraft and before deploying (or not deploying) his canopy? Assuming Cooper did not deploy a canopy, his landing location would be several miles from his point of seperation from the aircraft.

Or does anyone, presumably academics, have access to computer software and hardware that is capable of computing this information? The computation requires an iterative type program and is rather complex.

Robert

[377 22]

It's a standard bomb drop ballastic calc, not too hard to do. Target shooter's programs could probably be used too.

http://ballistic.zdziarski.com/

http://www.wiremod.com/forum/finished-contraptions/16700-e2-ballistic-trajectory-calculator-drag.html

Just seat of the pants observation from watching a bunch of DC 9 jet jumps at Rantoul WFFC 2006: Jumpers forward velocity (equal to plane speed at exit) decreases pretty fast and after about 15 seconds of freefall, jumpers look like they are falling pretty much straight down.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

It's a standard bomb drop ballastic calc, not too hard to do. Target shooter's programs could probably be used too.

http://ballistic.zdziarski.com/

http://www.wiremod.com/forum/finished-contraptions/16700-e2-ballistic-trajectory-calculator-drag.html

Just seat of the pants observation from watching a bunch of DC 9 jet jumps at Rantoul WFFC 2006: Jumpers forward velocity (equal to plane speed at exit) decreases pretty fast and after about 15 seconds of freefall, jumpers look like they are falling pretty much straight down.

377

Thanks for the links. I have visited both and it looks like at least one of them may get the job done. I'll do an indepth checkout of both sites. It is that horizontal component of motion and the atmospheric density that makes the problem complicated and requires an iterative approach.

In case anyone is interested, early last year I calculated the Portland atomspheric density that existed at the time of Cooper's jump. Corrections were made for the below standard temperature, above standard pressure, and for the high humidity. The end result was that the Portland atmospheric DENSITY at the time of the jump was slightly above the standard given in the 1962 U.S. Standard Atmosphere.

In addition, I have estimated the drag coefficient times reference area (CD x A) values for two jumper positions that should represent the slowest and fastest free fall conditions.

Robert

[377 22]

http://www.google.com/search?q=sage+radar+youtube&hl=en&sa=X&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GGLL_en&prmd=v&source=univ&tbs=vid:1&tbo=u&ei=cK3ITNHDDJHAsAPj3eCJCQ&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=2&ved=0CCQQqwQwAQ

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Amazon wrote:

Quote

AS a young financially strapped service member the fancy sport gear was just out of reach price wise, so many of us had surplus GI gear with modified surplus military canopies like the C-9 or a T-10 with a 5 TU or 7 TU or other cut.

Almost all of the DZ's I frequented back in the day used that kind of gear for students. The Seattle Skydivers Club at Snohomish still had a bunch of that stuff and I got to jump some a few years ago in 2003 at the Green Meet... CRAP those things seem to come down faster than I remembered

Damn right they come down fast. I am soooo grateful for ram air canopies and so are my tibia, fibia, etc.

I did like the quiet ride under my cheap surplus C9. It was a peaceful prelude to the violence of the landing.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[NexusOfCivility 0]

ok, Amazon identified one thing that's interesting about the collection of chest reserves Emrick had available at Issaquah on 12/1/71.

Not all of them matched the one the FBI currently has.
(i.e. there's one big one there)

It's odd Emrick hung them on the wall like that.

In any case: All the experienced jumpers who said it would be obvious picking a "training reserve" vs a real reserve..

There are 5 reserves in the photo with the newspaper article I posted. (Emrick is holding one)

Are they all good? Are any stuffed with a reduced canopy (sewn gores) like Cooper's?

If any are bad ones, which?

Another variance: Note the one Emrick is holding. It has I think what you call a belly band? (the black webbing/hook hanging below)

The FBI belly reserve had no such thing. It had some nylon cord on the side handles..i.e. looked pretty bogus

If there were two reserves and one had the belly band, which would you pick?

See: everyone assumes the two reserves were equal looking except for the X.

The newspaper photo introduces the likelihood that is not true.

For instance, another seems to have a mounting spot for an altimeter maybe ?? or what is that? (the big rectangle on one)

So Blevins is not excluded: Were all of KC's jumps static line?

[quade 4]

Georger,

Cool it.

This is your first and only warning.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[NexusOfCivility 0]

Quote

NexusofCivility asks in part:

Quote

'So Blevins is not excluded: Were all of KC's jumps static line?'

Blevins wrote: "The jumps Kenny made carrying full gear with the guys in his company were all static line. On a few others he jumped in smaller groups where they went freefall with minimal or no military gear. These were mostly demo jumps for small crowds. I think it was some kind of public relations deal while the US was controlling postwar Japan for a couple of years.

Most of his jumps, but not all, were made from a C-46."

Thank you.
I don't want to create any problems with the History Channel.

Do you want the answer to whether there were any US military freefall demo jumps for small crowds in postwar Japan as soon as possible, or is it better to wait?

Do you have specific years, or locations?

These public relations demo jumps were after the nuclear bombs, of course?

If they jumped with minimal or no military gear, what gear did they use? minimal means no gear? some? what? Are you talking about not jumping with guns or not jumping with military canopies?

[edit] Looking at your book, it appears that this must be somewhere between 1945 and 1947 that KC was doing freefall demo jumps in Japan with non-military gear?

• Quote

[NexusOfCivility 0]

Mr. Blevins:

In your book you say
"The Army still made good use of Kenny, however. He was sent to Fukuoka, Japan as part of the Occupation Forces and put in charge of the mailroom. When an airstrip was constructed nearby, he was transferred to work on the project."


Fukuoka was interesting. It was firebombed on June 20, 1945. A large section of the city was destroyed.

I've attached a bombing target map produced by Britain in 1944, of Fukuoka.

Is this the city where KC did freefall demo jumps for the public? (what year?)

Plenty is googleable. There were 67 japanese cities that were firebombed.

Fukuoka was listed as 24.1% destroyed

Some put the date at June 19, 1945 with 200 American B-29's participating. There was other nastiness there with a POW camp.

[NexusOfCivility 0]

from
http://home.comcast.net/~winjerd/Page06.htm

I've attached a photo of downtown Fukuoka taken Oct 2, 1945 (after the bombing) first, then a May 1945 aerial photo for comparison (before bombing) (from that url also), then a June 1945 damage assessment photo.

there were other missions there. Mines laid. Some P-47 and P-51 missions.

Last photo is wild one actually taken during the B-29 raids.

mission detail from the firebombing raid (b-29s). There was also a post-war claim of 2000 killed.

MISSION SUMMARY Mission Number 211

28 June 1945

1. Date: 19 June 1945

2. Target. Fukuoka Urban Area (90.35)

3. Participating Units: 73rd and 313th Bombardment Wings

4. Number A/C Airborne: 237

5. % A/C Bombing Primary: 92.82% (221 primary and 2 opportunity)

6. Type of Bombs and Fuzes: E-46 and E-36, 500 lb. incendiary clusters set to open 2500' above target, and AN-M47A2 incendiary bombs with instantaneous nose. [See above article for description of incendiary bombs.]

7. Tons of Bombs Dropped: 1525 tons on primary and 13.3 tons on opportunity.

8. Time Over Primary: 0011K -- 0153K

9. Altitude of Attack: 9000 -- 10,000 feet

10. Weather Over Target: 1/10-3/10

11. Total A/C Lost: 0

12. Resume of Mission: 73rd Wing strike photos showed good results, with numerous fires in the built up area of the city. 1.3 sq. miles destroyed (20%) of built up area. Medium and heavy A/A, meager to moderate and generally inaccurate. Twelve E/A sighted made 4 attacks. Ten B-29's landed at Iwo Jima. Fourteen B-29's were non-effective. Average bomb load: 14,399 lbs. Average fuel reserve: 717 gallons.

[NexusOfCivility 0]

Mr Blevins:

You said:
"Yet, it is a known fact that silk is biodegradable, and the chute displayed by the FBI doesn't have any visible damage, even after being buried in the wet ground for (according to the FBI) 63 years. "


You know when the parachute was manufactured. You don't know how long it was in the ground.

Those are two different events. For instance, it wasn't buried until after it was manufactured. That is a sure thing. And it was buried before it was discovered.

But other than that, you're just writing a story.

[377 22]

I'd like to challenge the alleged fact that KC did any freefall jumps while serving in Japan.

Amazon, your thoughts?

If he did who trained him? Show me any Army manuals from this time period that describe freefall jumping. The Army had training manuals for everything they did involving parachutes.

You don't just jump out of a C46 and become a stable freefaller. I was the master of the flat spin long before I learned freefall stability. We didn't have AFF. You were told how to fly stable and then jumped solo to try to put words to practice.

I think KC may have done S/L demo jumps without carrying external gear payloads, but I am skeptical about freefall claims.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Were risers found with the Amboy chute? Did they have Capewell canopy release fittings on them?

Riggers: were Navy fliers in the mid to late 1940s wearing
chutes with Capewells?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[NexusOfCivility 0]

I mentioned the POW camps at Fukuoka that were pretty brutal.

I just found an interesting site. The POWs evidently marked their site, and Allied forces dropped supplies by parachute. Photos from the actual airdrop attached. You can see the letters "P" and "W" on the rooftop buildings.

http://home.comcast.net/~winjerd/Supply/fukdiv.htm

"All supplies landed within 600 ft. of camp. Assigned target."

That's amazing. Farflung: as a pilot, you must be amazed at that too?
Actual photos of the Sept 14 1945 airdrop

Camp: FUKUOKA No. 1 3337N - 13026E

Mission No.: 73 POW M20

Date Flown: 14 September 1945

Camp located about 1,000 yards from west bank of river in wooded area. Camp surrounded by fence. PW spelled out on ground with rocks.

Scale of photos prevents count of POW's. All supplies landed within 600 ft. of camp. Assigned target.

A couple of missions. more details at the site. Detailed aerial photos of the POW camps

[NexusOfCivility 0]

According to Skipp Porteus, the story of Kenny jumping comes from a single letter dated August 4, 1946 from Sendai (a different city than what Blevins claimed in his book. Maybe that's the city Blevins moved to?)

There isn't detail in this snippet about what the $150 was for. Was the jump for being re-certified to receive paratrooper pay grade? My first thought would be that..not a "demo jump"

Where did the freefall demo jump idea come from? Did Mr. Blevins make it up for the History Channel?
Mr. Blevins: Do you have the letter?

From Skipp:

"“Dear Folks,” Kenny wrote home in one letter dated August 4, 1946, from Sendai. “I went to church this morning. I went last Sunday also. I had more reason to go last Sunday, as after ten months of hibernation, I once again donned a chute and reserve and entered a C-46. I cringed a good deal, but I managed once again to pitch myself into the blast. That jump was worth $150. The nicest thing about the whole affair was that I never had time to worry about it … Don’t get the idea that I didn’t get that certain stomackless [sic] feeling, because I did.”"


Mr. Blevins quotes this letter in his book, and provides no other Japan letters. Are there any others?

Kenny was deployed, after his initial training on August 16, 1945. [Ed. note: Japan surrendered on August 12, 1945. Nagasaki was August 9, 1945]

Looking at the ten month "hibernation" ..maybe this was his first jump after training.

Amazon: is there an annual jump certification required (back then?)

[NexusOfCivility 0]

Thank you Mr Blevins.
I forgot to mention.
Anything I write here is confidential and must not be repeated to anyone.
There are many other things that are confidential but I can not speak of them either.
I fully sympathize with your position.

Are you introduced in any products from the Urals area?

Oh: P.S.
What things did you get right in your first book? Can you list them again? It feels like the same definition of "right" that Jo Weber uses. It would be nice to list whatever is "right" that meets a stronger definition than the Weber or Gossett definition.

And why do you mention the FBI so much? Why does that matter in terms of KC? I think the only thing there is to mention that the FBI never investigated KC. So there's no extra info beyond that?

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I only have a second this morning, and I haven't finished reading yet...

BUT...

Why does it seem to me that everyone forgets that there were no D-rings on the harness Cooper took?

No D-rings - No reserve!

Or am I wrong?

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[377 22]

Quote

From Skipp:

"“Dear Folks,” Kenny wrote home in one letter dated August 4, 1946, from Sendai. “I went to church this morning. I went last Sunday also. I had more reason to go last Sunday, as after ten months of hibernation, I once again donned a chute and reserve and entered a C-46. I cringed a good deal, but I managed once again to pitch myself into the blast. That jump was worth $150. The nicest thing about the whole affair was that I never had time to worry about it … Don’t get the idea that I didn’t get that certain stomackless [sic] feeling, because I did.”"

What in the text above indicates that this was a freefall jump? You can pitch yourself "into the blast" with a static line.

Yes Sluggo, no D rings=no reserve... unless you happened to carry a couple of carabiners with you.

I still am waiting for solid evidence that KC ever did a freefall jump in the Army.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[NexusOfCivility 0]

I read a story once where a guy got sued for a hundred million dollars.

Be strong, Mr. Blevins.

oh: Why do you think the FBI wants help from the public? Where did you get that idea? (names)

[Robert99 50]

Quote

I read a story once where a guy got sued for a hundred million dollars.

Be strong, Mr. Blevins.

oh: Why do you think the FBI wants help from the public? Where did you get that idea? (names)

Mr. NexusOfCivility, You should visit the FBI's government site and note the information about their asking for public assistance and their discussion of the Cooper hijacking. FBI names are mentioned.

A visit to Sluggo's web site would provide you with access to just about all information on the Cooper hijacking that is in the public domain.

What is it in your background that makes you feel qualified to disparage Jo Weber and Robert Blevins? Jo Weber, Robert Blevins, and others have fully disclosed their backgrounds. What is yours?

Be strong, Mr. NexusOfCivility.

Robert Nicholson

[NexusOfCivility 0]

Mr Robert99,

The claims about the FBI seem to go back to the behaviors of one rogue agent: Larry Carr.

Larry Carr has evidently been dealt with.

So it's unfair to claim the FBI is doing what you're saying, today.

What information do you have, today, other than old web pages, that says the FBI wants information from the public about DB Cooper? What agent are you saying the public should be in contact with?

My experience is all encompassing. I have no flaws.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Mr Robert99,

The claims about the FBI seem to go back to the behaviors of one rogue agent: Larry Carr.

Larry Carr has evidently been dealt with.

So it's unfair to claim the FBI is doing what you're saying, today.

What information do you have, today, other than old web pages, that says the FBI wants information from the public about DB Cooper? What agent are you saying the public should be in contact with?

My experience is all encompassing. I have no flaws.

Well Mr. J. Christ, please forgive my failure to recognize You. However, I didn't expect the Second Coming to be like this.