DB Cooper

[Farflung 0]

There seems to be several variables being grouped into one problem.

First, was the 727 jumpable? What was the big unknown about stepping off the trailing edge of some stairs oriented in the slipstream versus some crew members dropping out of an entry hatch on a 707? I must be missing some concern about the 727, but can’t figure it out. People had been strolling off the aft ramps of 130s for years.

Second is the operation of the aft stairs. Put the lever in the down position or pull the emergency release lanyard or both. The hatches are designed for people (sometimes PAX) to open in an emergency without training. Should this element really take on some mystic expertise?

Third would be a basic understanding of the behavior of the stairs in the open position (I know nothing). The stairs are NOT part of the pressure vessel. They live in the cold cruel tail cone. The meat locker looking door at the end of the fuselage is the aft seal to the pressurized area of the fuselage. To open the stairs or a hatch or cargo door, you will more than likely need to depressurize the cabin. But these devices will open in flight. Not saying it is a good idea, just that it is not some great mystery to ponder for more than a few seconds. Cooper did not care if the door closed again so he did not need to plan (design) any further.

After Cooper, McCoy proved it could be done without STCs, Tech Orders, Design Reviews or equipment modifications. Then McNally followed and proved it could be done without parachute training and then LaPoint did all of the above in a DC-9. Was the DC-9 jumpable? What about those stairs? Were the Douglas and Boeing engineers engaged in some sort of bizarre collusion?

Four goofballs managed to open some stairs which have a Big Red Handle that says OPEN and step out in a parachute. Three of the four managed to do it without killing themselves and one is simply missing (successful).

Now, what am I missing about these planes and stairs?

The government in some sort of omnipotent wisdom requires the installation of the Cooper Vane. Great, now some psycho is hijacking my plane and this loser is trapped inside thanks to the fast thinking of the FAA. Am I the only one? Give this creature an escape route and put the hijacker filters in FRONT of the plane not in the tail.

[377 22]

Re: Blevins pry bar gold panning technique:

Now if we could just train crows to do this...

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I haven’t had time to read the recent post but I did want to get this out to you guys.

My copy of “The D. B. Cooper Story – Vanishing Act by Kay Melchisedech Olson came today. It has “Library Binding” so it will last for a million years.

I read it in about 10 minutes.

The Content Advisors were:
Larry Carr, DB Cooper Case Agent, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Seattle, Washington and Philip Edney, Public Affairs Specialist, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Washington, D.C. [Sluggo Note: I wonder who in the FBI needs to make their affairs public? Shouldn’t you keep that stuff private?]


The Reading Advisor was Alexa L. Sandmann, EdD, Professor of Literacy, College and Graduate School of Education, Health and Human Services, Kent State University.

Now why would you need a “Reading Advisor,” unless the book was a “Children’s Book”???? Hmmmm. It is published by Compass Point Books… I wonder…..?

From their website:

Compass Point Books publishes award-winning nonfiction, grades 5-12. From history to science and biography to careers, these titles inform and inspire through sophisticated and engaging formats.


Oh well… Now we know!

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[377 22]

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Or to put it another way, when push comes to shove, the Federal Air Regulations do not apply to USAF, USN, and USA aircraft.

True. Even state govts are exempt from FAA regs. That exemption allowed the lone remaining airworthy surplus C 133 to fly state cargo in Alaska long long after the USAF retired them to the Tucson boneyards as structurally unsound. The owners slipped in a little North Slope oil rig cargo work too, verrry lucrative as the C 133 could carry things no other plane could operating on gravel airstrips. Hey, a bush pilot's gotta make living right?

Ever see a C 133? I did. I watched the last flyable example land at Travis AFB a couple of years ago to be put into their base museum collection. H U G E. Like a Herc on steroids. I think you could have launched a 400 way from a single C 133. The surplus planes sold for about $30,000 in DOD auctions.

They had vibration problems so severe that you could have a crewman stand on a sheet of cardboard during cruise and easily pull it out from underneath their feet if done slowly. That lead to fatigue, skin cracking and fatal explosive decompression events. No wonder the FAA opposed their use in civil aviation.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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Now why would you need a “Reading Advisor,” unless the book was a “Children’s Book”???? Hmmmm. It is published by Compass Point Books… I wonder…..?

From their website:

Compass Point Books publishes award-winning nonfiction, grades 5-12. From history to science and biography to careers, these titles inform and inspire through sophisticated and engaging formats.


Oh well… Now we know!

Everything published about DBC helps. In this case we are getting the next crop of lunatics hooked on the mystery. Gotta start young.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

http://www.fss.aero/accident-reports/look.php?report_key=1147

Would Amazon have jumped it? I doubt it.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Robert99 50]

It is my understanding that in 1971 only the 727 could lower it rear stairs in flight. Cooper may not have known that this was true only for the 727 but he definitely knew that the 727 could do it. After he purchased his ticket, Cooper double checked with the ticket agent that a 727 was actually making that flight that day (i.e., no substitute aircraft). So Cooper was specifically looking for a 727.

The 727 was known to be jumpable, by a limited number of people, in 1971 and Cooper was one of them.

Some skydivers also jumped from a DC-9 in the early 1970s but they went out the side door. One of those skydivers, a lady, told me they jumped from 20,000 feet and she didn't have any problems until she got down to about 10,000 feet at which time she started to tumble out of control.

My point about the 727 rear stairs control panel is that if you are going to drop people and cargo down those stairs on a daily operational basis, you want to make sure that you can get things open and shut on a reliable basis.

Robert

[Robert99 50]

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Or to put it another way, when push comes to shove, the Federal Air Regulations do not apply to USAF, USN, and USA aircraft.

True. Even state govts are exempt from FAA regs. That exemption allowed the lone remaining airworthy surplus C 133 to fly state cargo in Alaska long long after the USAF retired them to the Tucson boneyards as structurally unsound. The owners slipped in a little North Slope oil rig cargo work too, verrry lucrative as the C 133 could carry things no other plane could operating on gravel airstrips. Hey, a bush pilot's gotta make living right?

Ever see a C 133? I did. I watched the last flyable example land at Travis AFB a couple of years ago to be put into their base museum collection. H U G E. Like a Herc on steroids. I think you could have launched a 400 way from a single C 133. The surplus planes sold for about $30,000 in DOD auctions.

They had vibration problems so severe that you could have a crewman stand on a sheet of cardboard during cruise and easily pull it out from underneath their feet if done slowly. That lead to fatigue, skin cracking and fatal explosive decompression events. No wonder the FAA opposed their use in civil aviation.

377

Several decades ago, two or three other fellows and I had the privilege of having lunch with a USAF pilot who had experience with the C-133 and other large aircraft. This pilot said that the C-133 was the most flexible aircraft that he had ever flown and that he had encountered major problems (the same problems that had caused the loss of some of the aircraft) but had managed to work his way through those problems.

A few years later, this same pilot retired from the USAF and worked for the manufacturer of the B-1. He was killed in the crash of one of the early B-1s when the crew ejection capsule (no individual ejection seats in that particular B-1) hit the ground before its parachute was fully deployed.

Robert

[Amazon 7]

COOOOL
No for the period of time I was there in 76-77 we did not do the water training.. I forget why but something in the water comes to mind... don't know why. The wire was still there for the zip line... similar to the training we gave people at the USAF Sea Survival School at Homestead AFB but they did not want to do that at the lake at Wright Patt. If I would have had half a brain I would have just stayed there at WP and not transferred back to Fairchild so I could go to EWU. I did not realize how good of a gig that was till I did not have it any more.

[Amazon 7]

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http://www.fss.aero/accident-reports/look.php?report_key=1147

Would Amazon have jumped it? I doubt it.

377

Dahrlin.. I will jump from ANYTHING as long as I think I can survive it

[Farflung 0]

I found some contemporary pictures of KC-135 (gas passers) chutes BEFORE the USAF instituted the ‘Smart’ program removing these things. Sure is nice of the Air Force to avoid using passive aggressive names for programs involving the removal of equipment classified as ‘life support’. I’m all for the ‘Smart’ program because I’m smart and that makes me feel all groovy inside. And that’s good.

They look like the ones I was shackled to with a few exceptions. The butt boats are missing their ‘crunchy shell‘ and there is some sort of Fanny-Pack-ish thing above the D-handle. Probably holds an i-Phone, GPS or more condoms. Hard to recall since the last time I touched one was over 25 years ago and my mind is fuzzy also. I meant the C-9 parachutes, by the way and not the condoms.

[Robert99 50]

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http://www.fss.aero/accident-reports/look.php?report_key=1147

Would Amazon have jumped it? I doubt it.

377

Dahrlin.. I will jump from ANYTHING as long as I think I can survive it

In addition to the above 727 passenger aircraft incident, an all cargo aircraft (DC-8?) had its large forward cargo door (the one just behind the cockpit for loading the cabin) come open just after takeoff from Phoenix.

The crew returned and landed at Phoenix without any problem. Film of this landing was on the evening news and the cargo door seemed to be fairly stable in its "gull wing" position. Reportedly, there was no structural damage to the door or aircraft.

Robert

[Amazon 7]

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I found some contemporary pictures of KC-135 (gas passers) chutes BEFORE the USAF instituted the ‘Smart’ program removing these things. Sure is nice of the Air Force to avoid using passive aggressive names for programs involving the removal of equipment classified as ‘life support’. I’m all for the ‘Smart’ program because I’m smart and that makes me feel all groovy inside. And that’s good.

They look like the ones I was shackled to with a few exceptions. The butt boats are missing their ‘crunchy shell‘ and there is some sort of Fanny-Pack-ish thing above the D-handle. Probably holds an i-Phone, GPS or more condoms. Hard to recall since the last time I touched one was over 25 years ago and my mind is fuzzy also. I meant the C-9 parachutes, by the way and not the condoms.

The things dangling are survival kits some were soft and were not so bad to wear in a normal aircraft seat... not all of them had tha hard case that was common in the ejection seat equipped AC.. probably a 1 man raft and some rations maybe even a one person down sleeping bag vacum packed with a screw thru all the layers that needs to have a bunch of hole patched after you open it and other interesting items based on what aircraft.. what unit... and what command you were in... the what the hell is that... is the Personal Lowering Device Hardware pouch that connects to the flat fold 250' nylon webbing for letting you down from a tree landing

The bracket has the function of holding your O2 mask tubing into the harness and connecting to the bail out bottle the green handle thingie

[Robert99 50]

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Robert99 says:

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'It is my understanding that in 1971 only the 727 could lower it rear stairs in flight. Cooper may not have known that this was true only for the 727 but he definitely knew that the 727 could do it. After he purchased his ticket, Cooper double checked with the ticket agent that a 727 was actually making that flight that day (i.e., no substitute aircraft). So Cooper was specifically looking for a 727.

The 727 was known to be jumpable, by a limited number of people, in 1971 and Cooper was one of them.'

Well...maybe his best friend was a mechanic for NWA between 1949-1968?
Side note: This same person is having his criminal record run up by Skipp Porteous as we speak. (This doesn't imply he HAS one, just that it is being checked) I should know something by Wednesday.

NWA didn't know that the stairs could be lowered in flight until the hi-jacking. If this mechanic had that information before the hi-jacking, where did he get it?

Robert

[377 22]

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Some skydivers also jumped from a DC-9 in the early 1970s but they went out the side door. One of those skydivers, a lady, told me they jumped from 20,000 feet and she didn't have any problems until she got down to about 10,000 feet at which time she started to tumble out of control.

Side door DC9 sport jumps? Give us a source. Never heard of this.
The story about tumbling at 10,000 feet seems odd. If you can stay stable at 20,000 ft it shouldn't be a problem at 10,000 ft.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

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Since I only have dial up - I couldn't isolate the pictures of her father...

attached - no comment

[skyjack71 0]

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It is my understanding that in 1971 only the 727 could lower it rear stairs in flight. Cooper may not have known that this was true only for the 727 but he definitely knew that the 727 could do it. After he purchased his ticket, Cooper double checked with the ticket agent that a 727 was actually making that flight that day (i.e., no substitute aircraft). So Cooper was specifically looking for a 727.

The 727 was known to be jumpable, by a limited number of people, in 1971 and Cooper was one of them.

As I have stated before - none of you know Duane's past and none of you knew his connections. His brother was an advisor for Boeing - but this went completely ignored. Also ignored the 2 jets purchased by JMWAVE...and what about the clip Snowmman found regarding jumps from a 727 in 1969 (Was this just "created" for show)?

You bet your bottom - Cooper was well aware of the 727. So were several people who served in Viet Nam and those who designed and built the plane.

Who is B Gaige
Who is Bafus
Who is Sovota
Who is Sanderson
Who is Hansen
Who is Finley
Who is Sinclair
Who is Garner
Who is Reed
Who is Ochs
Who is Tobey
Who is Merritt
Who is Bakker


The CCC's ended in 1942 with all closed or took over by the end of 1943.

Who built a log cabin on the Washougal - that Jerry Thomas claimed didn't exist in 1979.

Why has not all been told about the skyjacking? Who told who what they could and could not say?

Sound like a riddle? NO, they are all part of the solution.

The eyewitness accounts put that plane N and West of Heisson. The maps are being dotted with the accounts. Does this support Blevins story?

The surface has only been scratched. Who built the Hataway in Cames just around the corner from the Old Washougal Memorial Cemetery.

Is there anyone so naive they thought they could bury Cooper forever and ever?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Robert99 said:

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After he purchased his ticket, Cooper double checked with the ticket agent that a 727 was actually making that flight that day (i.e., no substitute aircraft).

Source please.

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Blevins said:

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cause the indicator light on the control panel in the cockpit to go OFF for a moment

Source please.

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[Farflung 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4ax-Eg0vZo

At 3:14 you can see the pressure vessel door (left) and the lavatory door (right). Is there any discernable wind blast in the fuselage? The woman holding the camera at 3:13 seems relatively undisturbed by any wind (hair). The tail cone has clearly been cleaned up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmImnArlghQ

Look at the pig tails on the woman at 1:52, are they being blown around? The jumpmaster at 1:54 is the epitome of near disinterest with her hair a T-shirt showing no signs being windblown. No horrendous blasts or screaming jet engines, a nearly casual environment.

Notice in both videos that the aft stairs have been removed. Not part of the pressure vessel or significant contribution to the structural integrity of the tail cone. Apparently this permanent bomb bay does not affect the flight characteristics of the aircraft to a large degree (inferred).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO_lneWprfM&feature=fvst


This is of a C-130 with a side door open 1:43 illustrating the wind blast on two people. At 2:21 with the gaping hole in the back and in a turn you can see a strap hanging from the ceiling. Not exactly gale force winds. I think I experience more wind blast while driving around with my window down looking all hunky and rad for the ladies.

Where did this sense of churning wind blast and noise and chaos originate exactly? Hollywood or the imagination of those who have never been in a similar environment perhaps? That DC-9 looks like any Southwestish commuter plane thousands of people have flown in with one notable exception; the passengers are wearing their carry on. This may not be that bad of an idea to institute nationwide.

Why not offer ‘Jump Service’ for those who don’t think spending two or three hours in the gentle embrace of SFO or LAX is a great way to end your day. Replace the flight attendant light with a parachute symbol; when approaching your destination it illuminates and you coolly exit with your back yard as a DZ. Show me a business traveler and I’ll show you a man that travels light, a lost and defeated man but one that travels with that thousand mile stare known only to the other un-dead which fill Abercrombie & Fitch stores and have couscous lunches. Whew, sure glad I’m not like that.

[Robert99 50]

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Robert99 said:

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After he purchased his ticket, Cooper double checked with the ticket agent that a 727 was actually making that flight that day (i.e., no substitute aircraft).

Source please.

Slight correction. He asked the question while in the act of purchasing the ticket. See Himmelsbach's book, page 13, fifth line from the top.

As quoted in the book: "O.K. Give me a one-way ticket. That's a 727 isn't it?"

Robert

[Robert99 50]

Jo, If Duane's brother was an advisor to Boeing, what was his area of expertise?

Robert

[Robert99 50]

Robert, Why did Boeing do tests on lowering the stairs in flight? Who were the tests done for? I believe that 377 stated some time back that there is nothing in the Boeing 727 manuals about the stairs being opened in flight.

Robert

[Robert99 50]

Farflung, The wind will be more of a problem with the side doors than the rear stairs. You have probably seen pictures of a "spoiler" being rotated outward into the airstream, and just upstream of the exit door, on C-141s prior to static line jumps. The same may be true with C-130 aircraft. The spoiler reduces the possibility of the jumpers tumbling.

There are other ways and means that things can be moved around in the back of an aircraft. And your hands and feet are probably acquainted with them.

In the Cooper matter, maybe he tripped over the money bag and fell down the stairs. Alternate explanations are available.

Robert

[Robert99 50]

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Some skydivers also jumped from a DC-9 in the early 1970s but they went out the side door. One of those skydivers, a lady, told me they jumped from 20,000 feet and she didn't have any problems until she got down to about 10,000 feet at which time she started to tumble out of control.

Side door DC9 sport jumps? Give us a source. Never heard of this.
The story about tumbling at 10,000 feet seems odd. If you can stay stable at 20,000 ft it shouldn't be a problem at 10,000 ft.

377

This may have been at a national meet in the Seattle area shortly after the Cooper jump. The lady who told me the story said the FBI came out and talked to all of them about the Cooper hi-jacking. And the consensus of opinion among the skydivers reportedly was that it was unlikely he survived the jump.

I have mis-placed this lady's e-mail address but will see if I can get in touch with her one way or the other. I'll post additional information if I can get it.

Robert