377 22 #19151 November 9, 2010 QuoteWhere did this sense of churning wind blast and noise and chaos originate exactly? Hollywood or the imagination of those who have never been in a similar environment perhaps? Ive jumped from several tailgate planes, CASA 212, Short Skyvan, C 130. There is no chaos by the open tailgate. Even in the DC 9 there wasn't any while flying over 200 knots with the ventral door open. That picture of deafening windy chaos by the door is painted in Hollywood. Once you left the plane there was quite a blast if it was flying fast. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #19152 November 9, 2010 QuoteThe spoiler reduces the possibility of the jumpers tumbling. One of my skydiving friends was a paratrooper (82d) and he said the C 141 spoiler's main function was to prevent exiting jumpers from being slammed against the fuselage. It didn't do much to prevent tumbling or other instabilities. I am finding nothing about a DC 9 skydive load in the 70s. I always thought the 727 at WFFC in Quincy was the first US use of a jet airliner for skydiving. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 50 #19153 November 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteThe spoiler reduces the possibility of the jumpers tumbling. One of my skydiving friends was a paratrooper (82d) and he said the C 141 spoiler's main function was to prevent exiting jumpers from being slammed against the fuselage. It didn't do much to prevent tumbling or other instabilities. I am finding nothing about a DC 9 skydive load in the 70s. I always thought the 727 at WFFC in Quincy was the first US use of a jet airliner for skydiving. 377 We are basically saying the same thing about the need for a spoiler. The fuselage boundary layer probably extends less than a foot from the fuselage skin at the rear of the aircraft. Outside that foot you have the full blown free stream velocity. That is, in the space of a foot, or very short distance, the wind velocity that the jumper would be exposed to goes from essentially zero to free stream velocity (which is about 140 knots or so for static line jumps from a C-141). Without the spoiler, the jumper would be blown to the rear in very close proximity to, and maybe in contact with, the fuselage skin. The spoiler increases the dead air area and permits the jumper to get further from the fuselage skin before he hits the full free stream velocity. Robert Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #19154 November 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteRobert99 said: QuoteAfter he purchased his ticket, Cooper double checked with the ticket agent that a 727 was actually making that flight that day (i.e., no substitute aircraft). Source please. Slight correction. He asked the question while in the act of purchasing the ticket. See Himmelsbach's book, page 13, fifth line from the top. As quoted in the book: "O.K. Give me a one-way ticket. That's a 727 isn't it?" Robert From this passage alone we can deduce: *he had a cabin on the Washougal. *he had another cabin on Ken Lake! *he was an advisor at Boeing. *he was Dick P's boss at Boeing. *he was Greg F's boss at Boeing. *he knows crows from ravens. *hijackers do not buy two way tickets. *if its in Himmelsbach's book it's true. *he did not ask if it was a 727-100 with the ducted Type 37B fold down toilet !!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #19155 November 9, 2010 I have to confess watching those skydivers in the DC-9 was amazing. They were precise, controlled, nimble, smooth and cool. So WTF? These people are wearing parachutes, helmets, cameras, reserves, altimeters and they are bounding down the narrow isle of a DC-9 and unhesitant in jumping into the thin air. Fantastic. Why have my experiences been so diametrically and universally opposed to this type of deplaning? Before the plane comes to a complete stop, there is the one less than agile person who stands to retrieve their laptop/rock collection bag by the shoulder strap. When the aircraft jolts to a standstill they jerk the luggage out of the overhead compartment where my skull is used to cushion the fall of the bags contents. They never acknowledge this violation, so don’t expect any. Next are the ‘bag ditherers’ who have some OCD which requires the opening and closing of every zipper and pouch in the search for some social skills. This must be done while they block the isle protected by their invisible ‘oblivious to the surroundings’ chamber. Next is the child being dressed in the isle by a detached parent. Coats and hats are donned with the greatest resistance by the child who seems to know the airport actually is a climate controlled environment. But the parent wants the other passengers to witness what they endure every day. Don’t forget about the passengers who like the mighty salmon, will fight all the forces of nature to travel upstream. These losers always manage to forget something. Rather than wait outside the aircraft in the Jetway for a few minutes; they begin an arduous upstream walk to seat 87D to get the other half of their PowerBar. I guess those people jumping out of the DC-9 deserve some recognition for the example they offer of how quickly and gracefully a plane can be exited. It was kind of like watching Business Travel porn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #19156 November 9, 2010 QuoteI guess those people jumping out of the DC-9 deserve some recognition for the example they offer of how quickly and gracefully a plane can be exited. It was kind of like watching Business Travel porn. It was pretty sweet Farflung. Stews even handed out candy before jump run. Many of us landed off the DZ due to high speed of the plane and serial exits. The plane was an IMMACULATE ex SAS DC 9-21, a rare model used for hot and high operations, short body big engines. Even up in the wheel wells things were sanitary. No pools of oil, hydraulic fluid etc like you find under the old freight dog cargo jets in Miami... or old 60's vintage bombers still soldiering on. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #19157 November 9, 2010 In 1975, a guy named Jerrry Cooper was apparently investigated for his Cooper Caper 15 mins of fame. Beyond physical description being similar, he also had a history of sky diving and worked at Washington National Airport as fueler. It was subsequently determmined that he wasn't DB. Anyway....he made this comment about reason DB might have been interested in a 727: "He picked the right plane. In the 727, your engines are setting up on the tail section high, not on the wings, so he wouldn't have to worry about the blast from the jets." but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #19158 November 9, 2010 Quote QuoteSome skydivers also jumped from a DC-9 in the early 1970s but they went out the side door. One of those skydivers, a lady, told me they jumped from 20,000 feet and she didn't have any problems until she got down to about 10,000 feet at which time she started to tumble out of control. The story about tumbling at 10,000 feet seems odd. If you can stay stable at 20,000 ft it shouldn't be a problem at 10,000 ft. Possibly hypoxic and only realised at 10K that she was tumbling?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #19159 November 9, 2010 QuotePossibly hypoxic and only realised at 10K that she was tumbling? Good out of the box thinking Orange and a real possibility! 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #19160 November 9, 2010 QuoteRobert99 said: QuoteAfter he purchased his ticket, Cooper double checked with the ticket agent that a 727 was actually making that flight that day (i.e., no substitute aircraft). Source please. Somewhere I read or heard that remark prior to Blevins making this post. Perhaps it was in a prior post he himself made. Maybe it is in some of the research material I have, but at one time I have READ this statement before.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #19161 November 9, 2010 Quote Robert, Why did Boeing do tests on lowering the stairs in flight? Who were the tests done for? I believe that 377 stated some time back that there is nothing in the Boeing 727 manuals about the stairs being opened in flight. Robert READ BACK into this forum into the Snowmman days and find the answer on your own. It is right here in the thread.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #19162 November 9, 2010 QuoteJo, If Duane's brother was an advisor to Boeing, what was his area of expertise? Robert He was an engineer and the schematics to the Boeings where ALL over the place prior to the Boeing 727 being produced. I have no idea what his involvement was or why he had the schematics to the Boeings. He did act for 6 yrs as a consultant for Boeing to the Army. This he told and wrote to me...but, I am under the impression this was in the 50's and before the Boeing 727 was actually produced. The 727 would have been on the drawing board - prior to the actual production.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #19163 November 9, 2010 Quote From this passage alone we can deduce: *he had a cabin on the Washougal. *he had another cabin on Ken Lake! *he was an advisor at Boeing. *he was Dick P's boss at Boeing. *he was Greg F's boss at Boeing. *he knows crows from ravens. *hijackers do not buy two way tickets. *if its in Himmelsbach's book it's true. *he did not ask if it was a 727-100 with the ducted Type 37B fold down toilet !!!! Aren't you mixing the "subjects" up some what. Duane helped build the cabin on the Washougal (Thomas claimed did not exist). Duane had a brother who was an advisor to the Army for Boeing for a period of 6 yrs.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #19164 November 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteJo, If Duane's brother was an advisor to Boeing, what was his area of expertise? Robert He was an engineer and the schematics to the Boeings where ALL over the place prior to the Boeing 727 being produced. I have no idea what his involvement was or why he had the schematics to the Boeings. He did act for 6 yrs as a consultant for Boeing to the Army. This he told and wrote to me...but, I am under the impression this was in the 50's and before the Boeing 727 was actually produced. The 727 would have been on the drawing board - prior to the actual production. The 727 system schematics do not tell you whether the plane can be flown safely with the stairs deployed. You might be able to tell that the stairs are not locked in the up position by a landing gear oleo squat switch signal indicating take off. That would just tell you that the stairs could probably be deployed in flight, but nothing about the effects on stability, pitch and controllability. Only flight tests answer the question as to whether the stairs can be safely deployed in flight without creating any serious flight control problems. The flight tests WERE performed by Boeing and were NOT documented in any airline flight manuals. I am certain the flight tests werre documented internally at Boeing. Don Kirlan fought to get access to them to prove to the FAA that the 727 could be safely operated as a skydiving jumpship at WFFC. Boeing also had ready answers to stair down flight questions when contacted by NWA during the hijack. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #19165 November 9, 2010 Attention FBI and others: Camp Hale located in the Eagle River valley in Colorado was an Army training facility constructed in 1942. Soldiers were trained in mountain climbing, skiing, and cold-weather survival. From 1959 to 1964, certain individuals were trained at Camp Hale by the CIA. The nickname for the camp became "Dhumra" and this camp closed in 1964. This was near Leadville, CO. What connection does this have to do with specific training going on in the Canon City area? You guys need to start asking yourselves some very serious questions and take the research seriously...FBI and CIA and independent researchers. How do I stay one step ahead on this? Do I have help? Am I working with the FBI? Am I connecting dots that do not connect. Don't even give it a second thought because you might miss your plane! Or is this just a BIG ole Tease? Place your bets! I will place my bet on this statement - Blevins and his subject are out of the game. So very hard to contain myself. Ssshhh! Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 50 #19166 November 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteJo, If Duane's brother was an advisor to Boeing, what was his area of expertise? Robert He was an engineer and the schematics to the Boeings where ALL over the place prior to the Boeing 727 being produced. I have no idea what his involvement was or why he had the schematics to the Boeings. He did act for 6 yrs as a consultant for Boeing to the Army. This he told and wrote to me...but, I am under the impression this was in the 50's and before the Boeing 727 was actually produced. The 727 would have been on the drawing board - prior to the actual production. Jo, To the best of my knowledge, the only Boeing aircraft that the Army had an interest in were the helicopters produced by Boeing Vertol in the Philadelphia, PA area. Helicopters and 727s are from entirely different worlds. Robert Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #19167 November 9, 2010 QuoteOr is this just a BIG ole Tease? Place your bets! 377 is betting on the Tease. It's a safe bet with this horse.2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 50 #19168 November 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteOr is this just a BIG ole Tease? Place your bets! 377 is betting on the Tease. It's a safe bet with this horse. Jo, I'm betting that there are no dots to connect in the first place. It's all between your ears. Robert Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 50 #19169 November 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteRobert99 said: QuoteAfter he purchased his ticket, Cooper double checked with the ticket agent that a 727 was actually making that flight that day (i.e., no substitute aircraft). Source please. Somewhere I read or heard that remark prior to Blevins making this post. Perhaps it was in a prior post he himself made. Maybe it is in some of the research material I have, but at one time I have READ this statement before. Jo, Blevins didn't make this post. You can't blame everything on him. Robert (or Robert99 if you look closely) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #19170 November 9, 2010 Quote Jo, Blevins didn't make this post. You can't blame everything on him. Blevins caused WW2 and the US mortgage criusis, I have proof.3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #19171 November 9, 2010 Robert Stated: Jo, If Duane's brother was an advisor to Boeing, what was his area of expertise? Jo replied: He was an engineer and the schematics to the Boeings where ALL over the place prior to the Boeing 727 being produced. I have no idea what his involvement was or why he had the schematics to the Boeings. He did act for 6 yrs as a consultant for Boeing to the Army. This he told and wrote to me...but, I am under the impression this was in the 50's and before the Boeing 727 was actually produced. The 727 would have been on the drawing board prior to the actual production. Robert Stated: Jo, To the best of my knowledge, the only Boeing aircraft that the Army had an interest in were the helicopters produced by Boeing Vertol in the Philadelphia, PA area. Helicopters and 727s are from entirely different worlds. Jo Stated: Wrong! Didn't I use the word schematics? Do you really believe the Army and Airforce were NOT interested in the development of these planes. Remember the aft stairwell had multiple uses...think! When Boeing designed the 727, it was conceived with multiple uses...but, became idea to use getting into smaller airports, but with a pay-load. Think about the origin of the design and why the military would be interested...Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #19172 November 9, 2010 377 stated: The 727 system schematics do not tell you whether the plane can be flown safely with the stairs deployed. You might be able to tell that the stairs are not locked in the up position by a landing gear oleo squat switch signal indicating take off. That would just tell you that the stairs could probably be deployed in flight, but nothing about the effects on stability, pitch and controllability. Only flight tests answer the question as to whether the stairs can be safely deployed in flight without creating any serious flight control problems. The flight tests WERE performed by Boeing and were NOT documented in any airline flight manuals. I am certain the flight tests were documented internally at Boeing. Don Kirlan fought to get access to them to prove to the FAA that the 727 could be safely operated as a skydiving jumpship at WFFC. Boeing also had ready answers to stair down flight questions when contacted by NWA during the hijack. Jo Replied: GZeee! The first Boeing did not roll off the assembly line until the early 60's. Think about how long these plane were in the works prior to that and the possible concepts others had regarding the design. None of what you said above is relevant to what I am trying to tell you guys. This is WHY I do not get into your 'technical" conversations. I just know what I know and what I was told by Duane's own brother...and what I learned in regards to this at a later date. Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #19173 November 9, 2010 QuoteIn 1975, a guy named Jerrry Cooper was apparently investigated for his Cooper Caper 15 mins of fame. Beyond physical description being similar, he also had a history of sky diving and worked at Washington National Airport as fueler. It was subsequently determmined that he wasn't DB. Anyway....he made this comment about reason DB might have been interested in a 727: "He picked the right plane. In the 727, your engines are setting up on the tail section high, not on the wings, so he wouldn't have to worry about the blast from the jets." From this we can now deduce: Everyone looks like Cooper. Its not what I wanted to hear (actually read) but I accept it. It comes with the territory, like the plague. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #19174 November 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteRobert99 said: QuoteAfter he purchased his ticket, Cooper double checked with the ticket agent that a 727 was actually making that flight that day (i.e., no substitute aircraft). Source please. Somewhere I read or heard that remark prior to Blevins making this post. Perhaps it was in a prior post he himself made. Maybe it is in some of the research material I have, but at one time I have READ this statement before. only shows how dumb he was that he didnt check TYPE of 727! No engineer this Cooper! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #19175 November 9, 2010 Quote Quote From this passage alone we can deduce: *he had a cabin on the Washougal. *he had another cabin on Ken Lake! *he was an advisor at Boeing. *he was Dick P's boss at Boeing. *he was Greg F's boss at Boeing. *he knows crows from ravens. *hijackers do not buy two way tickets. *if its in Himmelsbach's book it's true. *he did not ask if it was a 727-100 with the ducted Type 37B fold down toilet !!!! Aren't you mixing the "subjects" up some what. Duane helped build the cabin on the Washougal (Thomas claimed did not exist). Duane had a brother who was an advisor to the Army for Boeing for a period of 6 yrs. Thomas is very mixed up and has motives. How about you !? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
