georger 244
nigel99 476
Interphone - I am too young to comment on 1971 but I came across interphone recently and thought of this thread.
I believe it was on a transatlantic flight and the Cabin Crew used the term (I forget the exact circumstances - as I was probably being hit on by a male cabin crew member as usual - why never the women??)
I believe it was on a transatlantic flight and the Cabin Crew used the term (I forget the exact circumstances - as I was probably being hit on by a male cabin crew member as usual - why never the women??)
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.
Farflung 0
From Sluggo Monster’s website,
Crew Communications Notes Received 6/20/2008, pdf file pages 1 – 3.
The following was written on 25 Nov 1971, the day after the hijacking. Although this may be little more than the stem cells for all the lore and myth, it may also be the most accurate or least inaccurate telling of several technical items. For those with a pre-plotted curve, feel free to embellish and cherry pick as is the norm in any case.
Page 2- “(All information between cockpit and HJ being relayed by “captive” stewardess Mucklow by cabin/cockpit interphone.)"
“-Fueling to start as soon as engines shutdown.”
This would have been a good time for a former ‘covert ops’ man to demand a hot refueling since the passengers were deplaning from the front of the aircraft.
Page 3- “HJ specified that he wanted to go to Mexico City non-stop, that the aircraft configuration must be gear DOWN, flaps at 15°, that the aft door must be open at all times, and that the aft stairs must be fully extended after take-off.”
Mexico City non stop, flaps at 15°, gear down and stairs open. Seems like some self cancelling requests but Cooper must have been (insert whatever fits your curve).
From Seattle to Mexico City is 2,000 miles. The speed limit for 15° of flaps is 205 knots (see attach). 2,000/205 is 9.8 hours. What is the 727’s endurance?
Northwest responds, “…take-off with air-stairs full down impossible due to inability to rotate airplane. HJ advised of this he asked that air-stairs be partially extended prior to take-off. MSPFO advised this also impossible since stairs could not be held in any intermediate position.”
Looks like Northwest and Boeing were aware that the stairs could be opened in flight, just not on the ground. Cooper was not so plugged into this bit of minutia. The stairs by necessity must drop and then move freely in the open position for numerous reasons. Yawwwnnn.
Crew Communications Notes Received 6/20/2008, pdf file pages 1 – 3.
The following was written on 25 Nov 1971, the day after the hijacking. Although this may be little more than the stem cells for all the lore and myth, it may also be the most accurate or least inaccurate telling of several technical items. For those with a pre-plotted curve, feel free to embellish and cherry pick as is the norm in any case.
Page 2- “(All information between cockpit and HJ being relayed by “captive” stewardess Mucklow by cabin/cockpit interphone.)"
“-Fueling to start as soon as engines shutdown.”
This would have been a good time for a former ‘covert ops’ man to demand a hot refueling since the passengers were deplaning from the front of the aircraft.
Page 3- “HJ specified that he wanted to go to Mexico City non-stop, that the aircraft configuration must be gear DOWN, flaps at 15°, that the aft door must be open at all times, and that the aft stairs must be fully extended after take-off.”
Mexico City non stop, flaps at 15°, gear down and stairs open. Seems like some self cancelling requests but Cooper must have been (insert whatever fits your curve).
From Seattle to Mexico City is 2,000 miles. The speed limit for 15° of flaps is 205 knots (see attach). 2,000/205 is 9.8 hours. What is the 727’s endurance?
Northwest responds, “…take-off with air-stairs full down impossible due to inability to rotate airplane. HJ advised of this he asked that air-stairs be partially extended prior to take-off. MSPFO advised this also impossible since stairs could not be held in any intermediate position.”
Looks like Northwest and Boeing were aware that the stairs could be opened in flight, just not on the ground. Cooper was not so plugged into this bit of minutia. The stairs by necessity must drop and then move freely in the open position for numerous reasons. Yawwwnnn.
377 22
QuoteInterphone - I am too young to comment on 1971 but I came across interphone recently and thought of this thread.
I believe it was on a transatlantic flight and the Cabin Crew used the term (I forget the exact circumstances - as I was probably being hit on by a male cabin crew member as usual - why never the women??)
What airline? What was the nationality of the cabin crew? Just curious. I'd never heard the term until I started reading about military aircraft internal comm systems.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
QuotePage 3 Crew comm notes- “HJ specified that he wanted to go to Mexico City non-stop, that the aircraft configuration must be gear DOWN, flaps at 15°, that the aft door must be open at all times, and that the aft stairs must be fully extended after take-off.”
Most aviation whuffos dont know that flap positions are specified in degrees. A demand for 15 degrees could have just been a lucky guess or evidence some knowledge of 727 flight characteristics. He didn't just say "flaps down" or "full flaps", he specified a precise setting that was appropriate for TO and slow flight. The 727's speed limit with 15 degrees of flaps is 205 knots which is a good upper limit if you were going to jump, but wanted to exceed chase helicopter speeds. It's also slow enough to make it difficult for fast delta winged supersonic interceptors like F 106s to stay with you in bad weather. F 106s can fly at 200 knots, but it isnt optimal for a chase from behind situation. I am not saying Cooper was thinking about eluding chase aircraft, but he did pick a good speed to do that and it apparently worked.
My position that Interphone was a term used exclusively in the military appears incorrect. It is interesting though that passenger airliner cabin crews may use it. Since we can't be certain that Cooper used the term it's all just speculative.
Jo has written that someone connected with Duane was a Boeing rep to the Army. I think Boeing Vertol made helicopters for the Army. As far as I know the US Army never sought, bought or used 727s.
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Robert99 50
QuoteFrom Sluggo Monster’s website,
Crew Communications Notes Received 6/20/2008, pdf file pages 1 – 3.
The following was written on 25 Nov 1971, the day after the hijacking. Although this may be little more than the stem cells for all the lore and myth, it may also be the most accurate or least inaccurate telling of several technical items. For those with a pre-plotted curve, feel free to embellish and cherry pick as is the norm in any case.
Page 2- “(All information between cockpit and HJ being relayed by “captive” stewardess Mucklow by cabin/cockpit interphone.)"
“-Fueling to start as soon as engines shutdown.”
This would have been a good time for a former ‘covert ops’ man to demand a hot refueling since the passengers were deplaning from the front of the aircraft.
Page 3- “HJ specified that he wanted to go to Mexico City non-stop, that the aircraft configuration must be gear DOWN, flaps at 15°, that the aft door must be open at all times, and that the aft stairs must be fully extended after take-off.”
Mexico City non stop, flaps at 15°, gear down and stairs open. Seems like some self cancelling requests but Cooper must have been (insert whatever fits your curve).
From Seattle to Mexico City is 2,000 miles. The speed limit for 15° of flaps is 205 knots (see attach). 2,000/205 is 9.8 hours. What is the 727’s endurance?
Northwest responds, “…take-off with air-stairs full down impossible due to inability to rotate airplane. HJ advised of this he asked that air-stairs be partially extended prior to take-off. MSPFO advised this also impossible since stairs could not be held in any intermediate position.”
Looks like Northwest and Boeing were aware that the stairs could be opened in flight, just not on the ground. Cooper was not so plugged into this bit of minutia. The stairs by necessity must drop and then move freely in the open position for numerous reasons. Yawwwnnn.
Somewhere within the last few days, someone posted a link to one of Snowmann's post in which he quoted Ckret as, in turn, quoting the Boeing pilot who flew the stair door down test as saying something like "the aircraft cannot take off with the stairs down AND LOCKED (emphasis mine)".
That is probably what the Boeing people were passing to the NWA 305 crew. And it would indeed be impossible to rotate the aircraft with a tail skid like that.
So the whole point appears to be a mis-communication between Cooper and Rataczak. Rataczak had been told that the aircraft could not take off with the stairs down and Cooper obviously meant that he wanted the stairs unlocked and only slightly down for the take off. And the aircraft probably could take off with the stairs unlocked and only slightly down.
Or to put it another way, this is a non-issue. Just a confused couple of fellows thinking they were talking about the same thing when they weren't.
Robert
georger 244
QuoteQuotePage 3 Crew comm notes- “HJ specified that he wanted to go to Mexico City non-stop, that the aircraft configuration must be gear DOWN, flaps at 15°, that the aft door must be open at all times, and that the aft stairs must be fully extended after take-off.”
Most aviation whuffos dont know that flap positions are specified in degrees. A demand for 15 degrees could have just been a lucky guess or evidence some knowledge of 727 flight characteristics. He didn't just say "flaps down" or "full flaps", he specified a precise setting that was appropriate for TO and slow flight. The 727's speed limit with 15 degrees of flaps is 205 knots which is a good upper limit if you were going to jump, but wanted to exceed chase helicopter speeds. It's also slow enough to make it difficult for fast delta winged supersonic interceptors like F 106s to stay with you in bad weather. F 106s can fly at 200 knots, but it isnt optimal for a chase from behind situation. I am not saying Cooper was thinking about eluding chase aircraft, but he did pick a good speed to do that and it apparently worked.
My position that Interphone was a term used exclusively in the military appears incorrect. It is interesting though that passenger airliner cabin crews may use it. Since we can't be certain that Cooper used the term it's all just speculative.
Jo has written that someone connected with Duane was a Boeing rep to the Army. I think Boeing Vertol made helicopters for the Army. As far as I know the US Army never sought, bought or used 727s.
"Admiral Nimitz said, 'When I answer the interphone from the cabin I normally say "bridge". (History of
Naval Warfare)
"Exec Producer Bernard Maris said, 'Mon père a des interphones installés dans notre immeuble de bureaux dans Toulose en 1901.Les militaires français utilisaient des interphones dans les fossés dans la Première Guerre Mondiale.'
*Frank J SPRAGUE inventeur et père de la interphone électrique c. ... et invente le premier interphone électrique installé sur un bateau. ... Fin 1887, début 1888, Sprague utilisa son invention pour mettre au point le ...
*Invention of the Telephone by Alexander Graham Bell in 1876..
*WESTERN ELECTRIC GRAYBAR INTER-PHONE INTERCOM SYSTEM
This is an early apartment building inter-phone intercom adapted from the Sprague system in
Toulose. Patent pending Jan. 22, 1918 - 1921.
*Wright Brothers first flight — December 17, 1903
Orange1 0
QuoteJo has written that someone connected with Duane was a Boeing rep to the Army. I think Boeing Vertol made helicopters for the Army. As far as I know the US Army never sought, bought or used 727s.
Of course one also needs to look at things in context. A lot of people worked for Boeing. Not necessarily very unusual that someone had met an employee, particularly around the WA area...
Quotewhen World War II started, the government suddenly desired tens of thousands of planes a year, and Boeing was positioned to provide them. Working under fixed-fee contracts, Boeing churned out airplanes and became by far the largest employer in Seattle.
With the Boeing 707-120, Seattle became Boeing's company town; in 1947 Boeing employed about one out of every five of King County's manufacturing workers, in 1957 about every other one.
On a related subject, you want a grudge? And the timing fits:
QuoteHowever, the announced layoffs are far from the deepest cuts in Boeing's history. From 1967 to 1971, the company cut 95,180 people of whom 63,674 lived in the Seattle area.
More specifically ref timing (this extract refers to numbers in Seattle specifically):
Quote
Due to changing external demand and the cancellation of the SST program, "the Boeing workforce was cut from 80,400 to 37,200 between early 1970 and October 1971".
That last date is very interesting timing in light of the hijacking don't you think...?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Farflung 0
Robert99,
I may be wrong, but I don’t believe there is a down and ‘locked’ position for the aft stairs. The stairs when opened drop at some speed regulated by the struts. Then the stairs simply touch/rest on the surface.
If the plane was being loaded with cargo or fuel the AC could squat and damage the stairs and outer skin.
Perhaps someone could actually supply a source of the aft stairs manual or system description and put a bullet in the brains of this ‘Information Zombie’ once and for all.
I may be wrong, but I don’t believe there is a down and ‘locked’ position for the aft stairs. The stairs when opened drop at some speed regulated by the struts. Then the stairs simply touch/rest on the surface.
If the plane was being loaded with cargo or fuel the AC could squat and damage the stairs and outer skin.
Perhaps someone could actually supply a source of the aft stairs manual or system description and put a bullet in the brains of this ‘Information Zombie’ once and for all.
Farflung 0
I remember back when……
Interphones were made of…… wood.
Yep, this beauty was probably put into production right after the first plane was designed that could carry two or more people.
Pilot: We’re approaching the target, prepare for bomb drop.
Bombardier: WHAAaaaattt??
Pilot: Get ready to drop bomb.
Bombardier: I’m not ready to eat flan!
Interphones were made of…… wood.
Yep, this beauty was probably put into production right after the first plane was designed that could carry two or more people.
Pilot: We’re approaching the target, prepare for bomb drop.
Bombardier: WHAAaaaattt??
Pilot: Get ready to drop bomb.
Bombardier: I’m not ready to eat flan!
Tracking cookies are enabled depending on your security settings in your browser.
The first link is to a page at the History Channel website, which I think has been determined as 'Safe' by Norton and every other similar program on the planet.
The other goes to my column at MSNBC/Newsvine, where I have been a member in good standing for several years. Newsvine is the citizen-journalism discussion site for MSNBC. My column is visited thousands of times a month and is linked out to scores of other websites with over 450 illustrated articles available on all manner of subjects. There is no malware involved, I assure you.
Is you don't like cookies, reset your options in Control Panel. (Windows)
I said TRACKING COOKIES as opposed to ordinary cookies. There is a difference. One video link at
the Hist url instals even more TRACKING COOKIES
(a ton of em) and attempts to instal a pseudo
video proggy which is recognised malware.
Just a fact.
No problem at Newsvine/MSNBC where I guess you
run some stuff.