DB Cooper

[377 22]

from the article

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Janet, who was in the passenger seat, looked up just as the car was backing out of the driveway and saw a light pass overhead. A platform or ladder below a plane caught her eye.

"What I saw was flames and thought I saw something on the platform which could have been a person," Janet said.

Immediately, the fireball arched away from the platform, split into two and then disappeared in the direction of the Columbia River.

Cook believes the fireball Janet saw was Gossett tossing some road flares made to look like a dynamite bomb to judge wind direction to safely guide him to the ground.

Cook said his research has shown winds were blowing from the southeast at more than 60 knots in the Portland area around the time of the hijacking. "This kind of wind speed would likely cause a falling flarepack to appear fiery, as reported by Janet," he said.

Janet's account is equivocal about having actually seen a person on the "ladder or platform". I dont think she could have seen any structural detail, but the flare path description (arching away) still nags at me.

Galen obviously isn't a pilot and doesn't understand the concept of relative wind. Quade, Sluggo, Guru and others probably sighed or got a chuckle out of Galen's description of the high winds that night making the flare appear "fiery".

Another inconsistency in Janet's account is the flare splitting into two fiery descending objects. If a burning flare broke in half during descent only one part would remain lit.

The hostile abusive MIB (man in black) account makes no sense at all, ZERO. I doubt that it happened.

Oh well, 90% of what she says is highly unlikely so why do I cling to the remaining 10%? Dunno. I guess I want someone to have seen something linked to Cooper's exit.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[quade 4]

Quote

At the approximate time of Cooper's jump, the weather was not THAT bad and ground speed winds had dropped to well under 10mph. If the winds at 10,000 feet had even been close to 60 knots, the crew of Flight 305 would have had problems and trees would be dropping on the ground all over the Northwest.

Hogwash.

Winds aloft can, and normally are, significantly higher than winds at ground level.

10 mph winds at ground level are NO indication whatsoever of winds at 10,000 feet; not an indication of intensity or even direction. Any private pilot, any skydiver, should know that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

While searching for info on Arvidis J. Kiperts, I stumbled across this newspaper article that (for some reason) I had never seen before:

Woman searches for clues as elusive as D.B. Cooper
Sunday, August 13, 2000 By Margie Boulé, Columnist, The Oregonian

For more than a week, a handful of people scattered around the country have turned from the present to look back, to pull from their memories the face of a man they looked at, briefly, too long ago. He called himself Dan Cooper.

In the media frenzy that followed his successful skyjacking of Northwest Airlines Flight 305 on Nov. 24, 1971, he was mistakenly called D.B. Cooper. It stuck. Today millions remember the man by a name he never used. And a handful believe they still remember a face they hardly saw.

For five years, a Florida woman named Jo Weber has searched for the truth about her late husband. Eleven days before his death in 1995, in one of his last moments of lucidity, Duane Weber told Jo he had a secret: "I'm Dan Cooper." The name meant nothing to Jo until later, when a friend told her that D.B. Cooper actually had referred to himself as Dan Cooper.

Duane always had been secretive about his past; now Jo began to recall odd bits of information, objects and incidents that made her believe her late husband may, in fact, have been the skyjacker. He had a history of incarceration. He had a history of military service. He chain-smoked and drank the same liquor Cooper had drunk on the flight. She'd once seen an old Northwest Airlines plane ticket that disappeared after she asked about it; Duane had taken her on a trip to the Northwest and had driven her to a spot in Southwest Washington where he told her Cooper had walked out of the woods.

After five years of personal investigation and after becoming frustrated when the FBI did not launch an extensive investigation based on her suspicions, Jo decided to go public with her search. U.S. News and World Report printed her claims in late July. Several newspapers ran stories soon after.

But last week Jo still was trying to locate witnesses who might have seen Cooper on the day of the skyjacking in 1971. In particular, she was looking for two witnesses: William Mitchell, a college student who'd been flying from Portland to Seattle to go home for Thanksgiving and who had been seated near Cooper, and stewardess Tina Muklow, who Cooper kept with him in the back of the plane during the return flight south from Seattle after he released the passengers and received the $200,000 ransom money and parachutes he'd demanded.

After Jo's story ran in this column, pieces of the Cooper puzzle began to turn up. Eye witnesses -- or those who knew them -- cautiously, reluctantly, began to write or call.

William Mitchell was called Billy Mitchell when he was a student at the University of Oregon, several men informed me. One woman remembered taking an Italian class with him at UO: "He had to give a speech in Italian, and he told the story of the flight with D.B. Cooper." Childhood friends of Mitchell called and e-mailed, offering to find him.

Finally, William Mitchell's daughter wrote on his behalf. He did not want any more public attention, she said. He does not live in Oregon. But he would be willing to look at pictures of Jo's late husband and tell Jo if this was the man he remembered.

Several people called with the phone number of a man named Hal Williams. Then Hal called.

"I was the Northwest Airlines gate agent who worked on Flight 305," Hal said. "I personally saw Dan Cooper, and I was probably one of the few people who ever saw him without sunglasses."

Hal had his fill of media attention back in the 1970s, he said. In fact, the whole Cooper incident became a burden over time.

"I looked at hundreds of pictures over the years," he said. "You can't believe how many pictures, over and over and over. The FBI came to my house frequently. I suppose it was exciting at the beginning but then it got to be a real pain. I wished that I'd never been there. It just never seemed to end."

Still, Hal has not pushed out memories of the event that has been strapped on his back all these years.

"It was a raging, rainy, stormy day," he recalled. "A nasty day. As I explained to the FBI years ago, he was conspicuous. This was 1971, when we wore polyester and plaid and funny shoes and gaudy shirts. The boarding area had lots of businessmen dressed just like that. All except this one man, Dan Cooper, who was dressed all in black. It was unusual: black pants, shoes, black raincoat. It was like he was trying to hide, in black. But when you try to look inconspicuous, sometimes you make yourself even more conspicuous.”

"He stood right smack in front of me while I was doing the things you do when checking people in at a ticket counter and boarding area," he said.

Later, Hal was one of the witnesses who helped the FBI create composite drawings of Cooper. "But I never did think they were very good. They didn't look like him at all. But I was just one of many who helped put them together."

Hal doesn't own a computer, so a friend went to the Oregon Live Web site where this column and two old photographs of Duane Weber were displayed. He printed out copies, and Hal took a look. He said he did not recognize Duane. But after he learned from Jo that the photos were taken as many as 10 years before and about 10 years after the skyjacking occurred and that Duane was like a chameleon who often changed his appearance, Hal asked Jo to mail him more photos.

He said he's happy to help Jo. And he'd still like to see Cooper apprehended. It bothers him that Cooper became so famous after the skyjacking. "He's not a hero, he's a criminal, and they celebrate him because he got away with it," Hal said. "It's ridiculous."

Jo particularly wanted to find former Northwest Airlines stewardess Tina Muklow. She had discovered, in her research, that Tina had become a Catholic nun. But she'd been unable to locate her.

Last week, a Catholic journalist telephoned and said she had met and spoken with Tina, who changed her name when she took her holy vows. It's not yet known whether Tina will be willing or will be allowed to meet with Jo or look at pictures of Jo's late husband. But even if her request is denied, at least Jo will know she has left no stone unturned in her attempt to get answers.

Even if all three witnesses -- the passenger, the stewardess, the gate agent -- do examine Jo's old photos of Duane, they may not be able to provide a definitive answer to her question: Was her late husband D.B. Cooper?

Because even though these three people were dramatically affected by Cooper's crime, 29 years can pull memory a long way from the truth; trying to stir recognition from too-old photographs may be futile, like watering last year's crop.

They say memory paints pictures. Cooper's crime may be a landscape that has become too dark to see.

You can reach Margie Boule at 503-221-8450, 1320 S.W. Broadway, Portland, OR 97201, or marboule@aol.com.

I remember the article and she is a good interviewer - it was all by phone. At that time I did not have the pictures I have now and wish Hal was still alive.

I spoke to hall Williams and Mitchell either as a result of that article or the next one she did. My records show ALL of this, but I have to dig for them and just don't do that anymore. I just say approx when such and such occurred.

When someone contacted her she was the go-between and relayed information - it was up to me to pursue. She did another article after that one.

The article above is the one that generated several leads. Individual who saw and/or heard the plane and the night clerk. I was able to visit with some of these witnesses when I was in WA this Oct of 2010. East of Amboy and south from there. You can actually follow the leads and I marked approx location dots on a fantastic map of the area sent to me by one of these witnesses.

Some of the witnesses I talked to have died since 2000, but there are still enough out there to make the map. If the Seattle PI would have individuals call in and or check their archives and peg leads on a map per the address the individuals had in 1971 - they are ON a track.

There was a second fight to leave Seattle going into PDX with a more Westwardly path until it was to make its approach to Portland --- this is usually the plane that many in Vancouver thought was the skyjacked plane...and why all the confusion.

Have no explanation for what that Salt Lake City woman saw.
If anyone knows the exact location she lived in I would be glad to peg that one on the map, but give me her name to place by it...I will need the address she was living at. Since some of the roads have changed - actually need for it to be very specific - if possible. In fact if anyone has other sitings - get them to me...then lets see what we have.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

Blevins wrote:

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If the winds at 10,000 feet had even been close to 60 knots, the crew of Flight 305 would have had problems

Huh? What kind of problems?

Quade is right BTW. In October I made some HAHO jumps where the winds exceed 40 knots at 14,000 ft and were nearly calm on the ground.

When flying in 40 knot winds with an open canopy you dont feel anything unusual. It isn't "windy". Ground speed is affected but not your airspeed.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

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I have to tell you I was a bit tough on Galen Cook, especially on his 'Janet the Witness' story he tried to sell to Scott Schwebke of the Utah Standard-Examiner.

I've corresponded with Galen in the past and found him to be a sharp and open minded guy. I can't see him believing that part about "Janet" seeing Cooper on the 727 steps, which makes me wonder if there is something I am missing or some part of the story is being distorted. Still, Janet's alleged description of the flare following an arcing descent path caught my attention because it isn't intuitive and it is exactly what you'd see if a flare were tossed. You see it when skydivers exit with smoke.

Galen isn't a dummy, far from it, so whats up with the Janet story?

377

Galen's name was chosen appropriately - a he can stir up a bit of Gale now and then. Part of that was him and part of that was the witness and part of that was the person who authored the article....too many yrs have gone by and often they like myself are influenced by others.

I believe she may have been seeing the other flight going into PDX and what she saw was the landing lights...and perhaps a slight curve the pilot had to make going into the airport. It was my understand she lived in West Vancouver - someone get the darn address (I will mark it and report back).

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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I just read somthing I found interesting if it is true. Of the 118 passengers 72 were children? Can anyone confirm that is true?

Whuffo what Planet are you on right now? Or did I miss something?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[quade 4]

Quote

If the winds were higher than 10k, and more toward the jet stream, it would be believable. But at a mere ten thousand around here? Not a chance.

Atmosphere doesn't seem to be your strong suit. You might want to take a class or two on weather. Seriously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_gradient

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[smokin99 0]

Ok ...dumb question time...don't flame me too much or i'll tell Santa.

How high would a plane be that is coming in for landing but still about 10 miles or so from airport?
I live about 10 miles from our podunk airport and I have watched planes come into our airport about 9:30 pm est and the plane and lights are pretty visible. When it is very clear and very dark I have been able to see the markings on the plane. Not saying I would be able to see a person but I think I would be able to see an unusual lit protrusion from the rear of the plane and if something was flaming out from it. Are the planes I'm seeing probably lower than 10000 ft?

Obviously I'm not a flyer or a jumper and apparently I didn't pay close attention to the captain speaking..

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

.

How high would a plane be that is coming in for landing but still about 10 miles or so from airport?

Ditto for about 15 miles as the crow flies - takes 26 miles to drive it. In my case I know the approach runways coming from the Bayside of the Airport.

I really think that woman saw the plane that came in after the Skyjacked plane was in OR. as it approached to land. Low Clouds can create a lot of optical illusions...and maybe she is giving a false accounting. Still what is important to me is her exact location on this map.

It is difficult to believe the Skyjacked plane would come in low very low anywhere near the PDX approach on the Vancouver side which is where I have the impression she was located.

Someone must have her old address..I do not believe her story and it is the wrong plane or someone else has some information wrong - like ME.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[nigel99 476]

Quote

Ok ...dumb question time...don't flame me too much or i'll tell Santa.

How high would a plane be that is coming in for landing but still about 10 miles or so from airport?
I live about 10 miles from our podunk airport and I have watched planes come into our airport about 9:30 pm est and the plane and lights are pretty visible. When it is very clear and very dark I have been able to see the markings on the plane. Not saying I would be able to see a person but I think I would be able to see an unusual lit protrusion from the rear of the plane and if something was flaming out from it. Are the planes I'm seeing probably lower than 10000 ft?

Obviously I'm not a flyer or a jumper and apparently I didn't pay close attention to the captain speaking..

I am not a pilot but I fly commercially alot. I don't think there is a "right" answer to your question as I believe various airports have different restrictions (e.g minimum heights over a city centre, mountains to clear etc) But flying into Heathrow we are normally at 3000-5000 feet 10 miles out on approach.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[nigel99 476]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4017645;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Did you see this thread 377? Maybe part 1 of your predictions have been fulfilled?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[JamieCooper 0]

Kenny Christiansen was originally from Morris Mn? thats around 20 miles from where my father grew up.
Christiansen's family still live in MN? and theres mention of a camper/trailer?
the man named "Lyle"? is his last name "Christiansen" also? I'm not asking for specific info here but can you give me a general idea as to what part of the state he lives? like the city name at least?
why am I asking these things?
because my father and grandmother both talked about a Lyle, not to me but with each other. there was a "Lyle" casket-bearer for my father funeral.
I have a photo of a travel trailer my father owned but just always sat at his farm.
toward the end of his life he became sort of obsessed with wanting me to move out of my own home and take ownership of his hobbyfarm claiming "but theres gold in these hills". BTW no hills at all in that prairie location.
I only visited his farm maybe 10 times, over the course of my life.
each visit was spaced out over the years, one thing I always noticed was that he appeared to have been digging and moving earth to the right hand side of the driveway.
my mother insisted that he had hidden money and or gold there.
prior to all this, there was a mentally challenged man named "Billy Volks" who hid money in jars and coffee cans, and buried them in his yard.
he lived near the driveway of a farm my father and mother were staying at while my father did temporary jobs for the owner, near Campbell MN.
"Billy" came to visit my mother and siblings while she was pregnant with me, and my father was away at work.
My father and him became friends of a sort, and "Billy" revealed that he had large amounts of money stashed.
apparently my father even helped him dig some up for a bill on one occasion.
anyway and I apologize for the wandering and such but there is a point.
Billy was murdered causing my family to move into town. my mother saying she was too frightened to be alone on a farm with small children and pregnant with a killer on the loose who may think she saw him.
my father was a suspect in the case but had a solid alibi.( possible police records, and prints?)
I remember my mother being questioned about this still when I was a child.
a Sherrif came and had a police dog watch me telling me if I moved the dog would attack.
after he left my mother would cry.
this happened a few times.
She later told me it was because she knew who killed Billy.
it was the sheriff who kept coming and asking her if she had any ideas or leads for him.
the sherrif himself killed "Billy" and stole his money. she said she saw him there at the time of the murder, not in uniform.
why am I sharing this?
because my Father claimed He was "smart like Billy" when asked why he was always digging next to the driveway.
which was a statement Billy said in reference to how he hid his money.

now getting back to "KC" and the rest of the MN bunch.
aside from insisting I take ownership of his hobbyfarm, citing "theres gold in these hills".
My father proclaimed many times, to both my mother and myself, that after his death I would be made aware of how much he loved me, explaining only to my mother, with instructions not to tell me until after his death, that what He meant by this was, that he had entrusted a large amount of money with a un-named but trustworthy party for safekeeping, who was to approach me after his death. he called it "Jamies trustfund". He said he did this both to make sure I was always taken care of, and to prevent her from accessing it, or stealing it away from me.
to this date, noone has ever come forward. on his deathbed he had lost the ability to speak, and I could see he was struggling to tell me something but was never able to.
is it possible that Kenny and/or his family crossed paths with my father, and held some of the ransom money for safekeeping purposes? is this why his relative who he borrowed money to was required to repay it?
was being "smart like Billy" why money was found behind the house?
could it also be connected to the T Barr money find?

I realize this is all circumstantial, and make no claims of having any proof other that the pic of the camper, and any police records that others, like the FBI, could check about "Billy Volks", his murder should be verifiable anyway. "it was the sherrif", also this could turn up my Father's fingerprints, and they could be compared to the "DB Cooper" prints on file with the FBI.
some of the persons involved in the "KC" theory are still alive, right?
would you please ask them?

to recap for FBI or independent investigation purposes.
I don't know how to gather the proofs to support my story, I invite anyone with the capacity to do so.
best leads for producing physical evidence are:

1. police records pertaining to the murder of Billy Volks, in the Campbell MN, area around1969-1970, my father (Donald John Cooper) was a suspect, but had a solid alibi, possible prints, or photos in file?
2. 1982 police report involving a briefcase having been stolen from my Father's residence in Wahpeton ND by my mother, my father claiming the briefcase contained "personal documents", a police scanner, and a cassette answering machine. (briefcase appeared to have been crushed previously, looked like garbage to me, had a tag on the handle supposedly incriminating, was last seen being stashed in a attic on riverside ct. in Fergus falls MN, this may be the DB Cooper briefcase) perhaps a court order could be obtained to search for it?
this briefcase could contain various documents, photos, and recordings of telephone conversations useful in the "DB Cooper" case. my mother gathered and stashed this "evidence" for blackmail/extortion purposes.

3.my fathers signature displays debatable similarities to the handwriting on the "Dan Cooper" ticket, this should be compared with verifiable samples of Hal Williams' writing in other non related instances. perhaps even analyzed by a handwriting specialist.

4. the baptism photo I have supplied is the closest surviving photo I know of to the time of the "Norjack" incident.
it should be offered to living eye-witnesses for their opinion.

[Robert99 50]

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Quote

If the winds were higher than 10k, and more toward the jet stream, it would be believable. But at a mere ten thousand around here? Not a chance.

Atmosphere doesn't seem to be your strong suit. You might want to take a class or two on weather. Seriously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_gradient

Quade, You need to take a basic course in aircraft navigation. For instance, take the time the airliner reported its last position just a few DME miles south of the Seattle VORTAC and then its time and position during the hand off to Okland Center near the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California. You will have to get this last information from the Okland
Center transcripts.

Measure the straight line distance between the two points and then divide by the elapsed time. This will give the ground speed between those two points. The airliner's true air speed was about 194 knots at 10,000 feet.

The difference between the ground speed and true air speed is the average head wind component that the airliner saw that night. The winds aloft were uniform at 10,000 feet and, after some juggling of your aircraft navigation hand-held computer, the average wind speed and direction can be estimated as not more than 30 knots from the southwest.

But the airliner didn't fly a straight line between these points. It flew a more meandering route that was longer in the same time period. This means that its ground speed was greater and that the winds aloft at 10,000 feet were less than 30 knots from the southwest. This agrees well with the winds aloft information that is available for the time the airliner passed through the Portland area.

Robert Nicholson

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Ok ...dumb question time...don't flame me too much or i'll tell Santa.

How high would a plane be that is coming in for landing but still about 10 miles or so from airport?
I live about 10 miles from our podunk airport and I have watched planes come into our airport about 9:30 pm est and the plane and lights are pretty visible. When it is very clear and very dark I have been able to see the markings on the plane. Not saying I would be able to see a person but I think I would be able to see an unusual lit protrusion from the rear of the plane and if something was flaming out from it. Are the planes I'm seeing probably lower than 10000 ft?

Obviously I'm not a flyer or a jumper and apparently I didn't pay close attention to the captain speaking..

Normal approach path is a 3 degree glideslope. Basic Trig puts the plane around 2700 feet at 10 miles out. And before anybody says that that's way too low, keep in mind at an approach speed of 180 mph or so (around the speed of flight 305 with gear and flaps out) that's about 3 1/2 minutes from touchdown.

And there wouldn't have been any light coming out the open rear airstair door. Cooper had the cabin lights out (Didn't he?)

And did anybody else notice that this thread is now well over 20.000 posts?
WOW

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

smokin99 said:

Quote

Good find. I don't think I've seen this either.

I've got some articles on Kiperts but they basically just tell about the bank robbery and note and then regurgitate the cooper tale -- doubt they'd be of any use to you.

I was looking for a photo. I have a particular facial feature that I am investigating and I want to look at photos of ALL previous suspects.

Kiperts was a very interesting man, maybe even more interesting than Duane Weber/John C. Collins. He could be 377’s “Poster Boy” for recidivism rate.

Here are a few facts about Kiperts:
Arvidis Julius Kiperts, 65 [in 1996]
Robbed 16 banks, 1968-73. Sentenced to 36 years in prison - paroled after 11. Robbed three more banks, sentenced to 30 years in prison - paroled after 10 years. Robbed numerous banks in Oregon after his second parole. Sentenced to 40 years in prison.
The parole board does not have jurisdiction over this sentence because of federal mandatory sentencing guidelines.

That guy LOVED to rob banks!

While doing this background search on Kiperts (notice I didn’t say research, because I don’t do “research”) I took note of something that (I thought) was very strange. In 1973 the FBI doggedly pursued this guy because they found a deposit slip in the wall desk with “D.B. Cooper” scribbled on it, at a bank Kiperts had just robbed. So with no evidence that Kiperts was connected to the deposit slip, they spent resources to try to hunt him down.

You might be asking; “Sluggo, why is that so odd?” It is odd because evidently, in 1973 the FBI was following “even the slightest lead to try to capture Cooper.” In this particular case the suspect, who had been described as “short and stocky” (One of his aliases was “Yamhill Fats”) by dozens of witnesses to his robberies, hunted him down and investigated to determine if he was Cooper. As you know, they ruled him out, NOT BECAUSE HE WAS FAT, but because he was somewhere else on November 24th, 1971.

What does this (above) say about the faith the FBI had (in 1973) in the composite drawings and Flight 305 eyewitness accounts? You’ve got dozens of bank robbery witnesses describing Yamhill Fats as, well, FAT, and the FBI won’t stop hunting until they can prove he has a rock-solid alibi!

What do ya’ think, posters and posers?

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[smokin99 0]

This might help in your search. One article I just read said he was arrested in 1985 after a clerk "with a good ear for accents" recognized his picture from a wanted poster issued by the US Marshalls Service. Said poster had been distributed to all the gun stores in the state. This clerk at the sports store, where Kiperts had come in to buy a gun, apparently noticed Kipert's "German accent" from his description, and then went to the back of the store and checked the wanted poster, which matched the guy.

I guess my bolds above just further proves your point since Cooper was supposedly accent free.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[SKYWHUFFO 1]

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In Reply To
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I just read somthing I found interesting if it is true. Of the 118 passengers 72 were children? Can anyone confirm that is true?

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Hold on you are not talking about the skyjacked 727 of Nov. 24, 1971. There were not many individuals on that flight - I have the names of everyone on that flight someplace and I assure you there are less than 40 names on that list.

Whuffo what Planet are you on right now? Or did I miss something?



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Copyright©2009 by Jo Weber


Jo,
That is why i asked. This is in a newspaper article on the last page of the FBI website for Cooper. And slow down on the smart ass what planet am i from comments. I really don't feel like responding and being #3 banished.

[quade 4]

Quote

The airliner's true air speed was about 194 knots at 10,000 feet.

If you're going to attempt to lecture about navigation, you'll have a lot more credibility if you use the right terms.

This would not be the aircraft's true airspeed. If the numbers used and calculated are correct (something not in evidence), then at best this would be "course and speed made good."

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Robert99 50]

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On the question of whether winds at 10K were running 60 knots or better in the Portland area at the time of the hijacking:

Let's put it another way. Galen Cook bases this claim on 'according to my (his) research,' which is the same way he found his magic witness Janet.

I simply disagree with Cook's assessment that the winds were that high. He says 'research'.

I ask: WHAT research?

His claim reminds me of that final scene from the film Raiders of the Lost Ark -

Quote

Army Intelligence: 'We have top men working on it right now.'

Indiana Jones: 'WHAT men?'

Army Intelligence: 'TOP men...'

The high winds at altitude saga apparently originates from the quotations from a Captain Bohan which start on page 111 of Ralph Himmelsbach's book.

Captain Bohan apparently told Himmelsbach that his jet was at 14,000 feet and "four minutes behind" the hijacked airliner. Bohan reported "80 knot winds from 166 degrees (this would presumably be about 183 degrees with respect to the grid lines), right on my nose". Bohan also reported an extremely high cross wind component as he landed on runway 10 at Portland.

First, Captain Bohan wouldn't not have been "four minutes behind" the hijacked airliner very long since he probably had an airspeed of about 100 knots more than the Cooper aircraft, assuming of course that Bohan had retracted his landing gear and flaps and was operating his aircraft normally.

The ground winds passed to the hijacked airliner, including those at Seattle, Reno, and points in between, were all of the order of about 10 MPH (or about 9 knots). Consequently, there is no support elsewhere for Bohan's high cross wind component which would have to be about 25 MPH to be a concern for a jet airliner.

There is no supporting evidence of winds of 80 knots at 14,000 feet and plenty of supporting evidence that the winds at 10,000 feet were less than 30 knots from a southwesterly direction.

Overall, the winds and weather that the hijacked airliner experienced were all relativey routine and, weatherwise, it was just another night at the office.

Robert Nicholson

[quade 4]

Quote

How high would a plane be that is coming in for landing but still about 10 miles or so from airport?
I live about 10 miles from our podunk airport and I have watched planes come into our airport about 9:30 pm est and the plane and lights are pretty visible. When it is very clear and very dark I have been able to see the markings on the plane. Not saying I would be able to see a person but I think I would be able to see an unusual lit protrusion from the rear of the plane and if something was flaming out from it. Are the planes I'm seeing probably lower than 10000 ft?

The standard answer would be based off a 3 degree glide slope. (Rule of Thumb calculation of about 3000 feet) This can vary quite a bit depending on local conditions and even aircraft. Airliners are almost always going to be flying the published glide slope or step downs for the runway in question. By contrast, I've seen small aircraft do (I have done) some pretty wacky stuff to comply with ATC.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Robert99 50]

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The airliner's true air speed was about 194 knots at 10,000 feet.

If you're going to attempt to lecture about navigation, you'll have a lot more credibility if you use the right terms.

This would not be the aircraft's true airspeed. If the numbers used and calculated are correct (something not in evidence), then at best this would be "course and speed made good."

Quade, the True Airspeed can be calculated (that's why pilots have hand held calculators) based on the pressure altitude, the ambient temperature with a correction for temperature rise due to speed, and the True Indicated Airpseed (which is what shows on the cockpit instrument and, also in this case, we have to assume no instrument or position error).

The True Airspeed is the speed of the aircraft with respect to the air mass in which it is operating. The Ground Speed is the speed of the aircraft with respect to the ground. Ground Speed can be calculated from the True Airspeed if the winds aloft direction and velocity are known. Otherwise, Ground Speed can be calculated by measuring the time between two points (such as VORTAC stations).

The True Airspeed was correctly calculated at 194 knots at 10,000 feet and the term "True Airspeed" was used correctly.

The term Ground Speed is analogous to your words "speed made good". However, the phrase "course and speed made good" is not an aeronautical term. It sounds more like something a sailor would use for boats or ships.

Are you a sailor? In any event, nautical and aeronautical terms are not necessairly interchangeable.

To repeat, the True Airspeed was correctly calculated at 194 knots. And the terms True Airspeed, Ground Speed, and any other aeronautical terms I have used above are correctly stated and so used.

Robert Nicholson

[quade 4]

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Quade, the True Airspeed can be calculated (that's why pilots have hand held calculators) based on the pressure altitude, the ambient temperature with a correction for temperature rise due to speed, and the True Indicated Airpseed (which is what shows on the cockpit instrument and, also in this case, we have to assume no instrument or position error).

But that's not what you've done. What you've done is taken the course and speed made good (although you didn't actually provide the math for that) and used it based on what somebody else may have said was the true airspeed of the aircraft and have tried to come up with a simplistic formula in which somebody else can attempt to infer winds aloft.

I'm telling you, that's BS because there are simply too many other unknown variables including the accuracy of the times.

As much as we like to think that the pilots were being super accurate in their reporting of the conditions on their flight log, the fact is, they had bigger fish to fry.

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The True Airspeed was correctly calculated at 194 knots at 10,000 feet and the term "True Airspeed" was used correctly.

I seriously doubt either of them touched a whiz wheel during the flight to figure out their true airspeed. If it was done forensically, it was a guess at best.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skyjack71 0]

Skywhuffo stated:

I just read somthing I found interesting if it is true. Of the 118 passengers 72 were children? Can anyone confirm that is true?


Jo Replied:

Hold on you are not talking about the skyjacked 727 of Nov. 24, 1971. There were not many individuals on that flight - I have the names of everyone on that flight someplace and I assure you there are less than 40 names on that list.

Whuffo what Planet are you on right now? Or did I miss something?

Skywhuffo replied:

That is why i asked. This is in a newspaper article on the last page of the FBI website for Cooper. And slow down on the smart ass what planet am i from comments. I really don't feel like responding and being #3 banished.


Skywhuffo and others: The remark about what Planet are you on right now (in blue above)- is simple a remark I have said to my children and grandchildren and neighboring children when they would come to me about something just totally out of whack. The remark was NOT meant in a negative sort of way - but one of surprise "Where did that Come from?"

One I remember right off the bat: There really was 5 goats in my yard...escapees from
a neighboring piece of property!

I have never read anything about a plane full of kids, but maybe they are referring to passengers dropped off on one of the legs. Seems like there was some mention in another article about some kind of school sports team - but they were NOT on the plane when it was skyjacked.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[JamieCooper 0]

I noticed something odd about the "Dan Cooper Comic book cover, it uses computer aided color wash techniques that didn't exist in 1972.
also the lettering has been changed to resemble the Dan Cooper ticket stub.
was this the publisher capitalizing on Norjack? and is the FBI aware that their example has been Photoshopped?
I've attached a photo for reference and review purposes.

[Robert99 50]

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Quade, the True Airspeed can be calculated (that's why pilots have hand held calculators) based on the pressure altitude, the ambient temperature with a correction for temperature rise due to speed, and the True Indicated Airpseed (which is what shows on the cockpit instrument and, also in this case, we have to assume no instrument or position error).

But that's not what you've done. What you've done is taken the course and speed made good (although you didn't actually provide the math for that) and used it based on what somebody else may have said was the true airspeed of the aircraft and have tried to come up with a simplistic formula in which somebody else can attempt to infer winds aloft.

I'm telling you, that's BS because there are simply too many other unknown variables including the accuracy of the times.

As much as we like to think that the pilots were being super accurate in their reporting of the conditions on their flight log, the fact is, they had bigger fish to fry.

Quote

The True Airspeed was correctly calculated at 194 knots at 10,000 feet and the term "True Airspeed" was used correctly.

I seriously doubt either of them touched a whiz wheel during the flight to figure out their true airspeed. If it was done forensically, it was a guess at best.

Quade, Something seems to be getting lost in the translation here. Let me give you a couple of items in my background that, I strongly believe, gives me some reason to stand behind my statements.

I began pilot training at the age of 15 and retired from flying at the age of 60. I have more than 1750 hours of flight time including a relatively large amount of night cross country navigation time. I hold FAA Advanced Pilot and Instrument Ground Instructor Ratings.

One of my college degrees is in Aeronautical Engineering and I have a number of years working professionally in the area of aircraft performance and stability and control.

As Sluggo and Jerry Thomas can confirm, in early 2009 I did the basic calculations for the Seattle to Reno flight. At that time I calculated the airliner's true airspeed in the Portland area as being 194 knots at 10,000 feet based on the information that the airline crew passed to the NWA performance group in Minneapolis.

Any private pilot should be able to calculate the true airspeed under the conditions this airliner described. And this is not BS but is something pilots do every day including, I'm sure, the crew of NWA 305.

Sluggo used to have some posts on his web page related to this subject. However, he told me that apparently no one was reading them so I assume that he took them down.

However, there is another source for some calculations on this subject. I refer to the famous thread on 727 take-off performance, which I started accidentally while trying to post to this thread, and which was locked by you after several posts. If my memory is correct, that thread contains a discussion of the entire flight from Seattle to Reno. Perhaps you would like to review it.

If you want to duplicate the calculations for determining the true airspeed or anything else, let me know what kind of pilot calculator you have (Jeppeson, E6B, or other) and I'll tell you how to do it.

But I stand by everything I have posted on this subject as being correct. If you disagree, please post detailed critiques that can be discussed.

Otherwise, we can go sailing.

Robert Nicholson