DB Cooper

[JamieCooper 0]

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I wouldn't even think hypothermia is possible at that temperature.

Perhaps you should do some research into what happens when clothing gets wet.

I've personally fallen in the water in sub zero weather and it wasn't all that rough spending another 30 minutes outside with no gloves or hat only a leather motorcycles jacket long hair, teeshirt, jeans, socks, and converse all star shoes.

just want to repeat I think youre absolutely right on the rest of Al's theory, just the hypothermia part bothers me.
if DB Cooper was from MN, it's not a problem.

[377 22]

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Best case scenario based on an old rule of thumb formula and 50°F says that if his cloths were wet, he'd have about a 50/50 chance of survival for about 50 minutes.

I simply do not care how you want to play with the figures, a man dressed as he was hiking in the rain in the middle of the night in the mountains doesn't live over 5 hours.

Quade,

I agree with the hypothermia metrics you posted, but Snowmman, who is an accomplished ice climber, (has been in magazine articles about tough climbs etc) said he could have survived the Norjack night. He wasn't claiming superior powers or asking for additional garments or anything like that. How about letting him back to rationally debate the issue? Please?

Snow also has some good points about a dredging explanation for the Tena Bar money find despite Palmer's contrary conclusions.

I agree 101% about the spotting conclusions. I learned to spot the old way in 1968. Flying surplus C9 canopies I had to get pretty good at spotting or I'd have been landing a lonnnng way from the DZ in those NW springtime winds. In old school spotting you gave the pilot steering commands, something Cooper did not do. I guess only jumpers can appreciate the absuridty of whuffos concluding that Cooper was able to land within hiking distance of a stashed car or rendevous point... and all that was done with the pilots independently determining the aircraft's COG (course over ground). I doubt if I could have done it that night with a cooperative 727 pilot following my every command. Maybe Amazon could, but hey, she is Amazon.

Occam keeps whispering in my ear: "live crooks do not abandon real money." I try to silence him but he is relentless.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[quade 4]

I'm sorry sir, but your apocryphal stories simply don't mean squat.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[JamieCooper 0]

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I'm sorry sir, but your apocryphal stories simply don't mean squat.

seriously everyone in MN knows that 50 degrees is nothing. it gets that cold in the summer here for christ sake.
your blood adapts to the colder climate, it takes a few weeks to acclimate. some people never really do.
but again. this 50 degree thing is preposterous. perhaps it was accepted in the past but now with the internet you can ask anyone from MN and find out the same thing I've said.

[quade 4]

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I agree with the hypothermia metrics you posted, but Snowmman, who is an accomplished ice climber, (has been in magazine articles about tough climbs etc) said he could have survived the Norjack night.

Perhaps a trained individual could have survived by hunkering down, building a shelter and fire, but that doesn't get him to CaretakerAl's car parked 15-20 miles away; does it? Nor do we have any facts in evidence that DB Cooper possessed any such training.

Based on my own cold weather (for SoCal) jumping experience (CRW in February), assuming he deployed at 10k, he would be cold-soaked by the time hit/reached the ground. Even with gloves (something not in evidence), his hand coordination would be impaired which would have made making a fire difficult if he could have done it at all considering the conditions.

The fact is, even trained individuals die of hypothermia under less extreme conditions on an all too frequent basis.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

Fine. Do me a favor. Put on a regular business suit, stand in the shower until you're wet and then go stand outside in the middle of the night for 5 hours. Get it all on video and post it to YouTube. Be sure to periodically get resprayed with water.

Lemme know how that turns out for ya.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[JamieCooper 0]

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Fine. Do me a favor. Put on a regular business suit, stand in the shower until you're wet and then go stand outside in the middle of the night for 5 hours. Get it all on video and post it to YouTube. Be sure to periodically get resprayed with water.

Lemme know how that turns out for ya.

don't forget the raincoat.
first I'll have to wait until it gets that warm again.
50 degrees is tee shirt and shorts weather here.
i'm not kidding!
if he was carrying a load ie (working) he would have probably been sweating and even overheating, again only if He was from MN or a similar climate.

we dig holes in the ice during sub zero temperatures to go swimming wearing only shorts around here for fun.
the most famous group being "the polar bear club"

some families barely keep their homes above 50 degrees all winter long here.

[quade 4]

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don't forget the raincoat.

I'm starting to wish some parents didn't.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[smokin99 0]

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Fine. Do me a favor. Put on a regular business suit, stand in the shower until you're wet and then go stand outside in the middle of the night for 5 hours. Get it all on video and post it to YouTube. Be sure to periodically get resprayed with water.

Lemme know how that turns out for ya.

Don't forget something to simulate the wind chill factor, too... and this is just supposing that he made it to the ground without injury....

Occam's voice "Live crook have to beat great odds to survive" is fighting with "Where's the body, the suit, the shoes, the glasses, the briefcase, the money, the chutes, the "bomb", the paperbag, and the boxed lunches"

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[JamieCooper 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyRl_goYZ8w
just to put it in perspective this is a video from Oct. of 2010.
normally a tree doesn't fall on my neighbors house but this kind of weather is typical.
by November temperatures begin dropping below zero more frequently and stay that way until January when at times when factoring in windchill it gets around -100 degrees.
thats when we break out the cold weather gear and quit going outside as much.
it usually warms back up to more tolerable sub zero weather within a few days.
but until april or usually may, its below freezing.
the whole winter, people work outside everyday in just flannel shirts and jeans, obviously in the -100 days they wear parkas, hats, and gloves but for the most part just a insulated flannel shirt and sometimes a jacket gets many through the entire winter.

[quade 4]

Stop. Seriously, just stop with the foolishness and post factual evidence to support your claims.

I'm sorry, but people from Minnesota do not possess any super-human resistance to cold. They just don't.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/hypothermia/DS00333/DSECTION=causes

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

SKYWHUFO Said:

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ATTN QUADE!

Paul,

I am now going to join the quest of a few of the other jumpers that are left reading this forum have pleaded the case before. I think Snowman has leardned his lesson. In reading Young Coopers accusation towards Snowman, I am asking you to give pardon and let Snow back as long as he behaves and kept on a short leash. Georger should only have a few days left, and he should be able to post. This place needs some real talent again. I think the majority of the people who were here before Snow was sent to time out have asked for him to be brought back. Come on Quade ol' boy even Jim Morrison was pardoned.

I know the moderation of this (and all other) DZ.com thread is not a democracy and posters don’t get to vote on “who’s in and who’s out.” Also, I think I am the one that snowmman (with 2-Ms) irritated the most with his off-the-wall foolishness. But, if I did have a vote, I’d vote for a pardon with probation.

Frankly, with snowmman gone and georger gone, this thread has taken a nose-dive (IMHO).

So quade, in the words of John Lennon, all we are saying is; “Give -peace- snowmman a chance!”


Please! Huh! Please, please. PLEEEESSEE!

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NORJAK Forum

[quade 4]

Let me try to address this one more time and hopefully you'll all sort of get it.

Let's say you were throwing a party in your living room.
Let's say you had a "guest" that got a little out of hand.
Let's say you told him to behave or he would not be welcome in your home anymore, but not only does he not behave, he gets more disrespectful.

So, you toss him out of the house.

Next time you throw a party, this same individual shows up in disguise. You're pretty sure it's the same guy, but as long as he's willing to behave himself, you're going to give him another shot . . . as long as he continues to behave.

Then, he rips off his mask, screams at the rest of the guests and continues to be a nuisance.

You throw him out again.

Really? Do you REALLY invite this guy back to your party?

I don't.

I said at the top of this thread that if anybody wanted to throw their own party they were more than welcome.

If Snowman wants to do that, there's nothing stopping him.

If you guys want to attend his party rather than hanging out here, that's fine by me too, but he's not going to be invited back by me; ever.

End of discussion.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Robert99 50]

Quade, Just 10 days ago (in message #20142) you basically told me that I was full of "BS" (your term) because I was claiming that the airliner's true air speed could be calculated from the available information.

Now just today, you have probably posted 20 messages in which you use common sense and cite facts from various places. And I am in agreement with all those posts including the ones about hypothermia.

Did you have an epiphany over the holidays that led to this change?

And how are your BS true airspeed calculations coming along?

Robert Nicholson

[JamieCooper 0]

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Stop. Seriously, just stop with the foolishness and post factual evidence to support your claims.

I'm sorry, but people from Minnesota do not possess any super-human resistance to cold. They just don't.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/hypothermia/DS00333/DSECTION=causes

not saying we do.
I understand why it's hard for you to accept.
but the reality is exactly what I'm telling you. check weather almanacs, ask others from MN.
the following is a url to a fundraiser in which people jump thru a hole in the ice every year.
http://www.plungemn.org/
just as i won't attempt to tell you how skydiving works, you shouldn't try to tell me how the cold affects people.
my mother was a RN and I have at times been a certified nursing assistant for certain jobs.
while I'm no DR. I am qualified to make the claims I have about cold weather and it's affects here in MN.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quade said:

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End of discussion.

quade,

You know I have always been supportive of your moderation decisions even when I disagreed with them. This issue is no different.

However, I fear that your quote above is not only “declarative” but “prophetic.”

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[quade 4]

We had a bit of a falling out because you you came to a conclusion about the winds aloft based on course and speed made good AND your calculated True Air Speed.

While I do not doubt that calculations can be made, I do question the authenticity and accuracy of the "facts" you've based them on; notes recalled by a crew under stress and later appearing in the margins of FBI notes. NO actual flight logs.

Further, while you have calculated some headwind components based on course and speed made good versus your calculated TAS, they alone tell us little about the actual winds aloft that night since a headwind component is only part of the equation.

All one need do is look at the radar track to understand the crew was heavily bracketing V23 to stay on course.

When you can tell me for certain the headwind component and how much the PIC was crabbing to stay on course, maybe we can begin to have a conversation about the matter of winds aloft.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

Perhaps I should have added the word "this", but I sure as hell hope I don't have to.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Stop. Seriously, just stop with the foolishness and post factual evidence to support your claims.

I'm sorry, but people from Minnesota do not possess any super-human resistance to cold. They just don't.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/hypothermia/DS00333/DSECTION=causes

not saying we do.
I understand why it's hard for you to accept.
but the reality is exactly what I'm telling you. check weather almanacs, ask others from MN.
the following is a url to a fundraiser in which people jump thru a hole in the ice every year.
http://www.plungemn.org/
just as i won't attempt to tell you how skydiving works, you shouldn't try to tell me how the cold affects people.
my mother was a RN and I have at times been a certified nursing assistant for certain jobs.
while I'm no DR. I am qualified to make the claims I have about cold weather and it's affects here in MN.

I've lived in Wisconsin for nearly 40 years.

Quade is right. It's a simple matter of physiology. We may get used to the cold, but we don't really adapt to it. Any "adaptation" that I may develop each winter goes away over the summer anyway.

I've done the Polar Bear Jump (into Lake Michigan at Sheboygan) a couple times. The water is around 35 and the air temp has been as low as single digits.

A couple of the real hardcore guys (one is a good friend of mine) play in the water for about 20 min or so. They are showing the beginning signs of hypothermia by the time they get out.

I know a lot of guys who work outside in below freezing temps. NONE of them go in "just jeans and flannel shirts". Good thermal underwear, lined jeans, sweatshirts, lined bibs, ect, ect. They wear a lot of layers that they can peel and replace as they need to.

Below 50, wet and at night (it's absolutely amazing how much difference being in the sun makes in colder temps), dressed the way Cooper was (raincoat or not) he had at best a few hours before he was in serious trouble. Add in any injuries (shock is a killer under those circimstances) and he would have been dead well before dawn.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[JamieCooper 0]

again check out a weather almanac comparing Wisconsin to west central Mn/ east ND.
quite a bit of difference in temperature.
maybe that is how the construction people you know dress, it doesn't change anything here.
but lets just say you guys are right, I'm sure the sun does factor in as well.
whats to stop him from making a fire using the chute like a teepee or wigwam? drying off, and continuing on his way.
or even going to a bar like my father said he did, getting drunk and setting up a ride?
are there any roads near the suspected landing area? or bars? farmhouses? barns? any kind of shelter at all?
any of these could be used to dry off.
after that again the temperature isn't a problem at all.
it's only a problem if he was injured and unable to get anywhere or build a shelter.

does anyone know where this bar in Ariel says they got the parachute they have thats a replica of DB Coopers?

[CaretakerAl 0]

"I know a lot of guys who work outside in below freezing temps. NONE of them go in "just jeans and flannel shirts". Good thermal underwear, lined jeans, sweatshirts, lined bibs, etc, etc. They wear a lot of layers that they can peel and replace as they need to. "

Cooper wore two pair of thermal long-johns under his suit and shirt plus his boots. Gloves?? If you knew the weather, wouldn't you? He was no longer a novice, but I doubt he ever tried a cool weather jump before. Could have dropped altitude also. He pulled on the count of 10. He would have warmed up quick with the hiking. Landed clear in the woods. Buried his 'rig' under a Ranger's tower that is gone now. Never said a word about being cold. He was not living in Minnesota before the jump, so that whole theory is out the window. I freeze my cachangas off every time I step outside, and I'm fat. He was not, but he had a couple glasses of antifreeze.

Seems you are arguing over punctuation, guys. Fact is that he did do it, without injury, and without complaint. Must not have been as hard as you think.

[Amazon 7]

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Amazon said...

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I am going to try to get Mike the DZO from Toledo involved since he is pretty local to the area for some demo jumps.

Better book an RV space REALLLLY soon

Recommend any hotels in the area?... I'm seriously thinking about making the trip next year if I can talk my kid into coming along. He just rolls his eyes at my DB addiction, but I can usually talk him into making road trips with me.... if I bribe him too.

Not a lot of accomodations close to Ariel if memory serves. Cougar WA has some resorts like the Lonefir... and the closest "town" with hotels is pretty much going to be Woodland.

[Amazon 7]

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Best case scenario based on an old rule of thumb formula and 50°F says that if his cloths were wet, he'd have about a 50/50 chance of survival for about 50 minutes.

I simply do not care how you want to play with the figures, a man dressed as he was hiking in the rain in the middle of the night in the mountains doesn't live over 5 hours.

Quade,

I agree with the hypothermia metrics you posted, but Snowmman, who is an accomplished ice climber, (has been in magazine articles about tough climbs etc) said he could have survived the Norjack night. He wasn't claiming superior powers or asking for additional garments or anything like that. How about letting him back to rationally debate the issue? Please?

Snow also has some good points about a dredging explanation for the Tena Bar money find despite Palmer's contrary conclusions.

I agree 101% about the spotting conclusions. I learned to spot the old way in 1968. Flying surplus C9 canopies I had to get pretty good at spotting or I'd have been landing a lonnnng way from the DZ in those NW springtime winds. In old school spotting you gave the pilot steering commands, something Cooper did not do. I guess only jumpers can appreciate the absuridty of whuffos concluding that Cooper was able to land within hiking distance of a stashed car or rendevous point... and all that was done with the pilots independently determining the aircraft's COG (course over ground). I doubt if I could have done it that night with a cooperative 727 pilot following my every command. Maybe Amazon could, but hey, she is Amazon.

Occam keeps whispering in my ear: "live crooks do not abandon real money." I try to silence him but he is relentless.

377

Hey if it had been me... I would have gone east after landing and come out on the mainline road that goes over to Trout Lake. There are a couple major 2 digit NFS road that are easy to find and all the LEO heat would have been down in the flats to the west.... and not up in Indian Heaven The lava features up there make hiding out REAL easy

[CaretakerAl 0]

Radio vectoring and sighting the lighted pump station as a jump point make any sense? I don't know about any of this stuff, just what was said.
KAJW4899 out.

[skyjack71 0]

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It was described to me as a milk can he had found nearby. The person describing it to me was a third party repeating the report from the hijacker.

In other words, something that would not hold up in court.

Not exactly helpful.

Yrs ago I talked about Duane taking me to an old farm wiith what appeared to be a milking station in front of it. I know where that farm was and who owned it. (I was there 2 months ago). It may have been a farm Duane worked on in the 40's as a farm hand and had nothing to do with the skyjacking.

Duane NEVER mentioned a milk can (I told Knoss this more than once). Finally I just gave up and let it go...

I have the names of the people who owned the farm. They were German and had more than one son about Duane's age. One was deceased and the other was in a nursing home with Old Timers, He was shown some pictures and I was told not to expect anything by his son.

The son thought perhaps Duane worked as seasonal farm hand, but there is NO one to remember him and there are no pictures. I understood this as we had work hands on our farm to bring in the crops, but no pictures exist of these hands.

The son of this man was very nice to me and he remembered some of his relatives talking about his grandmother cooking for the hands and the speads the farm wives put out for the workers...we both shared similar stories.

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