DB Cooper

[377 22]

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I cannot remember from before if there was any note that Peterson was a smokejumper as well?

100% confirmed, in the smoke jumper history archives. He was in the Missoula (MSO) class of 1953 and became a full fledged USFS smoke jumper.

Pete was an out of the box thinker on skydiving too. He was doing home made bat wing jumps, night jumps, all sorts of stuff back in the day. He was a sport jumper in Viet Nam while he worked as a civilian refugee advisor.

Of course I am biased, and I agree that Bob's account of "Dan's" pointed inquiry about 727 stairs a decade before the skyjack should raise some skeptical eyebrows, Still, let's see how it pans out.

I have always been intrigued by a passage from his book where the main character spends a miserable night trudging along the freezing banks of the Columbia River wearing loafers, with leather soles that were frozen. Other stuff from the book mirror's Pete's real world experiences, such as the Bubbleator job and various skydiving episodes.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[BruceSmith 3]

This outcome bias that Bob has worries me. It could be coloring his memory of earlier events when Sheridan "Dan" Peterson was a boarder.

Wonder what led the FBI to target Sheridan as a suspect in 72? Skydiving? Boeing connection?

The FBI has twice investigated him. What made them come back for a second look much later?

377

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I have always been intrigued by a passage from his book where the main character spends a miserable night trudging along the freezing banks of the Columbia River wearing loafers, with leather soles that were frozen. Other stuff from the book mirror's Pete's real world experiences, such as the Bubbleator job and various skydiving episodes.

377

I'd forgotten about that bit! Yes, that certainly does raise eyebrows...
edited to add: of course that makes us wonder:
1) about how you keep your loafers on jumping a jet; and
2) what all that stuff was about finding a shoe in a field...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Quote

I cannot remember from before if there was any note that Peterson was a smokejumper as well?

100% confirmed, in the smoke jumper history archives. He was in the Missoula (MSO) class of 1953 and became a full fledged USFS smoke jumper.

Pete was an out of the box thinker on skydiving too. He was doing home made bat wing jumps, night jumps, all sorts of stuff back in the day. He was a sport jumper in Viet Nam while he worked as a civilian refugee advisor.

Of course I am biased, and I agree that Bob's account of "Dan's" pointed inquiry about 727 stairs a decade before the skyjack should raise some skeptical eyebrows, Still, let's see how it pans out.

I have always been intrigued by a passage from his book where the main character spends a miserable night trudging along the freezing banks of the Columbia River wearing loafers, with leather soles that were frozen. Other stuff from the book mirror's Pete's real world experiences, such as the Bubbleator job and various skydiving episodes.

377

377, As much as I hate to discount a promising theory, let me point out that the minimum temperature in Portland, OR was 44 degrees on November 24, 1971 and 43 degrees on November 25, 1971. So anyone truding along the banks of the Columbia River near Portland the evening of the hijacking would no doubt be miserable but their shoe soles would not be frozen or anything close to it.

Robert Nicholson

[Farflung 0]

So I wanted to get a handle on the Bubbleator before the revisionists took this story and made it all freaky and weird.

Apparently the Space Needle was one of the few survivors of the futuristic fair. In 1973, just after the hijacking (coincidence, yeah riiiight) there was a tepid attempt to ‘Save the Bubbleator’ in order to preserve some of Seattle’s history if not dignity. Just like DB Cooper’s crime this device was hidden in a secret location away from public view and research as part of a cover-up, no doubt.

Sometime later when the heat was off, the Bubbleator was sold to a private citizen who hid it where no one would ever look. You got it, his front yard. The owner claims he uses it to grow plants (read 420) and to get away from it all.

The Bubbleator control console and chair was discovered in another undocumented act of private ownership and was ultimately ‘donated’ to a museum for display. Yet another ‘coincidence’ involving Seattle, space travel and the future where we still drive cars (getting less intelligent) and shun monorails.

At least there are three places in America where the monorail is a preferred form of transport. That place where acting like a child is encouraged with endless entertainment featuring colorful costumes, dwarfs and wild rides along with Disneyland and Seattle makes for the tri-fecta of transportation.

Sadly the Bubbleator was too advanced for our primitive minds and was discarded like the Segway, Wheelsurf and Treadmobile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmLLGYn9Fo8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpssUPqNyG4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUuwEq98ByM

We better wake up and smell the future or end up looking stupid.

[377 22]

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377, As much as I hate to discount a promising theory, let me point out that the minimum temperature in Portland, OR was 44 degrees on November 24, 1971 and 43 degrees on November 25, 1971. So anyone truding along the banks of the Columbia River near Portland the evening of the hijacking would no doubt be miserable but their shoe soles would not be frozen or anything close to it.

Robert Nicholson

True Robert, but if you account for a little author enhancement it still is intriguing. Nobody wants to read about a cold uncomfortable walk, they want a barely survivable trek through a freezing hell. If he was wet, the low 40s could have put him into hypothermia pretty fast. It would not have been a cakewalk. If indeed he lost one shoe in the jump it would be much worse,

What strikes me is the location, the cold and the focus on inadequate clothing, particularly footwear. Somehow a cold weather survival experience hiking along banks of the Columbia River is clumsily woven in to a tale about Viet Nam. Very odd. Coincidence? Sure, very well could be. But the opposite is far more appealing to my biased mind.

There is another passage at the end of the book where the central figure Grecco (who I think is really Peterson) is doing an off drop zone solo freefall jump deep into the in Viet Nam wilderness and angsts about the unknown ground elevation and how it might affect his choice of an opening altitude. If Cooper had prior jump expereince I'll bet similar thoughts knawed at him as he went down those stairs. too long a freefall delay could put you into elevated terrain at 120 mph.

The chioce of "Grecco" for the hrero's name might be related to Peterson's appearance, Bob said he was olive skinned and looked Greek.

I can see faces in clouds and clouds in coffee, so I take all my speculation lightly. Of all the suspects, however, I think Peterson is among the best qualified. The FBI sure thought he was a person of interest and may have had additional info about him that looked like it could have linked him to Norjack.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Robert99 50]

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377, As much as I hate to discount a promising theory, let me point out that the minimum temperature in Portland, OR was 44 degrees on November 24, 1971 and 43 degrees on November 25, 1971. So anyone truding along the banks of the Columbia River near Portland the evening of the hijacking would no doubt be miserable but their shoe soles would not be frozen or anything close to it.

Robert Nicholson

True Robert, but if you account for a little author enhancement it still is intriguing. Nobody wants to read about a cold uncomfortable walk, they want a barely survivable trek through a freezing hell. If he was wet, the low 40s could have put him into hypothermia pretty fast. It would not have been a cakewalk. If indeed he lost one shoe in the jump it would be much worse,

What strikes me is the location, the cold and the focus on inadequate clothing, particularly footwear. Somehow a cold weather survival experience hiking along banks of the Columbia River is clumsily woven in to a tale about Viet Nam. Very odd. Coincidence? Sure, very well could be. But the opposite is far more appealing to my biased mind.

There is another passage at the end of the book where the central figure Grecco (who I think is really Peterson) is doing an off drop zone solo freefall jump deep into the in Viet Nam wilderness and angsts about the unknown ground elevation and how it might affect his choice of an opening altitude. If Cooper had prior jump expereince I'll bet similar thoughts knawed at him as he went down those stairs. too long a freefall delay could put you into elevated terrain at 120 mph.

The chioce of "Grecco" for the hrero's name might be related to Peterson's appearance, Bob said he was olive skinned and looked Greek.

I can see faces in clouds and clouds in coffee, so I take all my speculation lightly. Of all the suspects, however, I think Peterson is among the best qualified. The FBI sure thought he was a person of interest and may have had additional info about him that looked like it could have linked him to Norjack.

377

377, I believe the flight attendants indicated that Cooper MIGHT have been of SLIGHTLY Mediterranean origin although he spoke without an accent. So if Cooper had an accent, it was the same one that the flight attendants had and, thus, appeared to not be an accent to them. Does a native of the Bronx have an accent when he is in the Bronx?

As I stated a long time ago, at the time of the hijacking there probably wasn't 500 people worldwide who had the detailed knowledge of the 727 and its aft stairs that Cooper demonstrated the night of the hijacking. And if I haven't already said so, in my opinion, Cooper was probably a former employee of the US Government or a US Government contractor. Admittedly, the contractor comment covers a lot of firms.

Robert Nicholson

[377 22]

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So I wanted to get a handle on the Bubbleator before the revisionists took this story and made it all freaky and weird.

The Bubbleator theme music is truly haunting. Have you heard it Farflung? Listen at your peril however. Kurt Cobain's suicide has been linked to frequent childhood rides in the Bubbleator. Others, who are less knowledgeable, blame a stressful marriage to Courtney Love.

Snow has some good recordings. I hear messages in it, like "Paul is the Walrus" and "the Walrus is dead.", Now that is pretty freaky since John Lennon didnt write "I am the Warus" until about 1967. You dont even have to play it backwards.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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As I stated a long time ago, at the time of the hijacking there probably wasn't 500 people worldwide who had the detailed knowledge of the 727 and its aft stairs that Cooper demonstrated the night of the hijacking. And if I haven't already said so, in my opinion, Cooper was probably a former employee of the US Government or a US Government contractor. Admittedly, the contractor comment covers a lot of firms.

Robert Nicholson

Couldnt agree with you more Robert, although I'd add Boeing employee to that list of those who could be in the know.

Sheridan Peterson worked at Boeing during the 727 rollout. His job was in technical documentation. He also founded the Boeing Skydive Club.

I bet he had a decent opportunity to examine the test data that Boeing compiled during in flight 727 stair deployments. I know Boeing did such tests because they were accessed to get FAA approval for the 727 jumps at WFFC in Quincy Illinois. Don Kirlin had to do battle to get the test data but he succeeded. A 727 jumpship owned by AMJET made several appearances at the annual skydive meet.

I think Cooper had access to Boeing info indicating that the 727 could fly safely with the stairs deployed. He had to know, otherwise capture was nearly certain. He wasn't so dumb as to just guess that it could be opened. He knew speeds, the necessity for unpressurized flight, right altitude to avoid hypoxia but still give sufficient terrain clearance. He had obviously (at least as I see it) done some research.

Not even the flight crew knew whether the 727 could fly safely with the stairs down. They had to contact NWA HQ and NWA contacted Boeing which provided the affirmative answer. I have a very detailed 727-100 flight manual and it says nothing about the subject.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

Does a native of the Bronx have an accent when he is in the Bronx?

Damn right he does. They just sound funny PERIOD. It isnt relative or situational. No wonder the Dodgers left.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Robert99 50]

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Quote

Does a native of the Bronx have an accent when he is in the Bronx?

Damn right he does. They just sound funny PERIOD. It isnt relative or situational. No wonder the Dodgers left.

377

377, Let's say that two Bronxites (or whatever) have never been outside of the Bronx, never heard a radio or seen TV, and have never seen or heard of anyone from outside the Bronx. How can they tell that they have accents?

Robert Nicholson

[377 22]

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377, Let's say that two Bronxites (or whatever) have never been outside of the Bronx, never heard a radio or seen TV, and have never seen or heard of anyone from outside the Bronx. How can they tell that they have accents?

Robert Nicholson

Don't give me that tree falling in an unoccupied forest stuff, they just sound funny. If they were smart they'd hear it themselves.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Robert99 50]

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Quote

As I stated a long time ago, at the time of the hijacking there probably wasn't 500 people worldwide who had the detailed knowledge of the 727 and its aft stairs that Cooper demonstrated the night of the hijacking. And if I haven't already said so, in my opinion, Cooper was probably a former employee of the US Government or a US Government contractor. Admittedly, the contractor comment covers a lot of firms.

Robert Nicholson

Couldnt agree with you more Robert, although I'd add Boeing employee to that list of those who could be in the know.

Sheridan Peterson worked at Boeing during the 727 rollout. His job was in technical documentation. He also founded the Boeing Skydive Club.

I bet he had a decent opportunity to examine the test data that Boeing compiled during in flight 727 stair deployments. I know Boeing did such tests because they were accessed to get FAA approval for the 727 jumps at WFFC in Quincy Illinois. Don Kirlin had to do battle to get the test data but he succeeded. A 727 jumpship owned by AMJET made several appearances at the annual skydive meet.

I think Cooper had access to Boeing info indicating that the 727 could fly safely with the stairs deployed. He had to know, otherwise capture was nearly certain. He wasn't so dumb as to just guess that it could be opened. He knew speeds, the necessity for unpressurized flight, right altitude to avoid hypoxia but still give sufficient terrain clearance. He had obviously (at least as I see it) done some research.

Not even the flight crew knew whether the 727 could fly safely with the stairs down. They had to contact NWA HQ and NWA contacted Boeing which provided the affirmative answer. I have a very detailed 727-100 flight manual and it says nothing about the subject.

377

377, Does your 727-100 flight manual give the details of the cockpit radio and navigational instruments?

How many VORs could the aircraft tune at one time? How many ADFs could be tuned at one time? How many voice transciever radios did the aircraft have?

Could the information from two VORs be displayed on the Horizontal Situation Indicator at the same time? Could the information from the ADF be displayed on the HSI along with one or both VORS at the same time?

Does anyone have cockpit instrument information specific to NWA 727 aircraft in the 1971 time frame? If so, do you have information to identify the specific cockpit instrument manufacturers and operating capability?

Robert Nicholson

[skyjack71 0]

Snowmman says he's running multi-op from Commando Solo. What does that mean?

Quade we NEED Snowmman - limit his posts so he doesn't take over like he did before, but his info is definitely NEEDED NOW.
We know that is WHY most of us got out of sorts - because it was a continuous barrage of lenghty post and links. I believe he will behave this time and keep his posts on topic and limit the number of posts he does .

Maybe no more than 6 reasonable length posts per day.
This guy know how to find "stuff" and I need to know who Dusty was and more about that Skydive site.

If we can't have Snow back - how about providing us with someone who is able to find this "stuff". This is getting to the nitty gritty now...and we NEED technical support.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

Jo:

Commans Solo: a special C 130 which I would love to own. Bet Georger wants one too. I could jump from it and also do some insane radio stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_EC-130

Multi op: multiple radio operators operating a communication station, typically during a ham radio contest.

http://k9jy.com/blog/2009/05/04/multi-operator-contesting-teams-and-sleep-deprivation/

Why try to control Snow's quantity? Just skip what doesnt interest you. You post a lot and so do I. It does no real harm. Skipping is soooo easy.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

377, Does your 727-100 flight manual give the details of the cockpit radio and navigational instruments?

How many VORs could the aircraft tune at one time? How many ADFs could be tuned at one time? How many voice transciever radios did the aircraft have?

Could the information from two VORs be displayed on the Horizontal Situation Indicator at the same time? Could the information from the ADF be displayed on the HSI along with one or both VORS at the same time?

Does anyone have cockpit instrument information specific to NWA 727 aircraft in the 1971 time frame? If so, do you have information to identify the specific cockpit instrument manufacturers and operating capability?

Robert Nicholson

No info on instrument mfrs, but I'll try to look up the other stuff.

From memory, ADFs (2) can be displayed on dual pointer RMI (will accept 2 azimuth selsyn inputs). Not sure what can be displayed on HSI, certainly one VOR. 2 VHF AM comm radios. 2 VOR to/from radial instruments. DME. No HF SSB, no INS., no RTTY.

My manual is from Continental for domestic ops. NWA might have been equipped differently.

What is the purpose of your question? Nav accuracy or?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Robert99 50]

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Quote

377, Does your 727-100 flight manual give the details of the cockpit radio and navigational instruments?

How many VORs could the aircraft tune at one time? How many ADFs could be tuned at one time? How many voice transciever radios did the aircraft have?

Could the information from two VORs be displayed on the Horizontal Situation Indicator at the same time? Could the information from the ADF be displayed on the HSI along with one or both VORS at the same time?

Does anyone have cockpit instrument information specific to NWA 727 aircraft in the 1971 time frame? If so, do you have information to identify the specific cockpit instrument manufacturers and operating capability?

Robert Nicholson

No info on instrument mfrs, but I'll try to look up the other stuff.

From memory, ADFs (2) can be displayed on dual pointer RMI (will accept 2 azimuth selsyn inputs). Not sure what can be displayed on HSI, certainly one VOR. 2 VHF AM comm radios. 2 VOR to/from radial instruments. DME. No HF SSB, no INS., no RTTY.

My manual is from Continental for domestic ops. NWA might have been equipped differently.

What is the purpose of your question? Nav accuracy or?

377

377, My interest is in determining the navigational and communications capability of the NWA aircraft.

Presumably, the famous Captain Bohan's Continental aircraft, which has never been identified to my knowledge, would have the same instruments and capability as you have just described for their 727s.

The Devil is in the details and the claims that have been made.

Robert Nicholson

[377 22]

377, My interest is in determining the navigational and communications capability of the NWA aircraft.

Presumably, the famous Captain Bohan's

Quote

Continental aircraft, which has never been identified to my knowledge, would have the same instruments and capability as you have just described for their 727s.

The Devil is in the details and the claims that have been made.

Robert Nicholson

OK. As far as voice comms, only VHF AM, nothing else. I spoke extensively with a Capt who flew the line and did check rides and training in NWA 727s through the 70s and he said abslutely positively no RTTY in any of their 727s. Some NWA planes that flew internationally had HF SSB but it was never used domestically.

Nav was mostly done with VOR/DME. ADFs werent used much other than to find the outer marker and occasionally listen to news, baseball or football games. but they were installed, and loops were calibrated to give accurate nulls.

If you are looking at accuracy the most precise nav available was VOR and DME.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I have no dates. I have no airlines. I just have a whole bunch of photos (a lot more than these).

Make of them what you wish.

My best guess is two VOR-DMEs OR two ADFs (NDBs) on the HSI, but again... I'm no expert.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

True Robert, but if you account for a little author enhancement it still is intriguing. Nobody wants to read about a cold uncomfortable walk, they want a barely survivable trek through a freezing hell. If he was wet, the low 40s could have put him into hypothermia pretty fast. It would not have been a cakewalk. If indeed he lost one shoe in the jump it would be much worse,

What strikes me is the location, the cold and the focus on inadequate clothing, particularly footwear. Somehow a cold weather survival experience hiking along banks of the Columbia River is clumsily woven in to a tale about Viet Nam. Very odd. Coincidence? Sure, very well could be. But the opposite is far more appealing to my biased mind.

Loafers would stay on with a set of ankle rubbers - they attached over the shoes firmly to the ankles with a snap. Duane always carried rubbers toppers and ankle boots in his car. Later on I guess they stopped making the things. I haven't see them in yrs. Only one time in our marriage in 1979 after our trip to WA - Duane had a "little to much " to drink and kept talking about his feet being so cold sitting on the edge of the bed taking his slippers off and on - off and on. There is more to this story, but this is all I am telling in a public forum.

Remember this little incident was the winter after our trip to WA in 1979...dreams and nightmares and then in Feb of 1980 right after the money find he pens his resignation (the day after it comes out in the paper) and leaves the area within 2 or 3 wks.

I have paper work to vouch for the date of the resignation. We also know the date the find came out in the Rocky Moutnain New.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 247]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Does a native of the Bronx have an accent when he is in the Bronx?

Damn right he does. They just sound funny PERIOD. It isnt relative or situational. No wonder the Dodgers left.

377

377, Let's say that two Bronxites (or whatever) have never been outside of the Bronx, never heard a radio or seen TV, and have never seen or heard of anyone from outside the Bronx. How can they tell that they have accents?

Robert Nicholson

you're never going to win a linguistics argument
here - these folks just dont get it - ckret never did.
"No accent" to these folks means "no accent" and
all accents means no accent, which might as well
mean: he didnt say nothin!

[Robert99 50]

Quote

I have no dates. I have no airlines. I just have a whole bunch of photos (a lot more than these).

Make of them what you wish.

My best guess is two VOR-DMEs OR two ADFs (NDBs) on the HSI, but again... I'm no expert.

Sluggo, Thanks for the pictures. On the particular HSI in the second attachment, it looks like only one VOR (or Localizer), and no ADF, can be displayed on the instrument.

Note the Radio Magnetic Indicator (RMI) immediately to the left of the HSI and the two switches immediately below the RMI. Two VORs, two ADFs, or one of each, can apparently be displayed on the RMI.

The control panels for the VORs and ADFs, one panel for the pilot and the other for the co-pilot, are located on the console between the pilots. I don't see a control panel that would specifically select one VOR (or LOC) for display on the HSI, but one exists somewhere as well as one for selecting one of the DME readouts for the HSI display.

The instrument just above the HSI is the Flight Director and it has a warning flag for the Localizer. The Localizer needle would have to be the dark line extending downwards from the symbol that represents the airplane.

The flight instrument displays have evolved over time and continue to do so. And pilots spend a lot of time in ground school learning how to use the instruments, set them up, etc..

Robert Nicholson

[georger 247]

Quote

This outcome bias that Bob has worries me. It could be coloring his memory of earlier events when Sheridan "Dan" Peterson was a boarder.

Wonder what led the FBI to target Sheridan as a suspect in 72? Skydiving? Boeing connection?

The FBI has twice investigated him. What made them come back for a second look much later?

377

I concur on all points, Three-Seven-Seven.

[skyjack71 0]

you're never going to win a linguistics argument
here - these folks just dont get it - ckret never did.
"No accent" to these folks means "no accent"
which might as well mean: he didnt say nothin!


Born and raised in the heart of Kentucky - My father was well educated and well traveled. I talk with a KY twang I have never been able to loose. If I meet someone who has the same twang - I asked them where they are from - well, you know the answer. The further north you go to Louisville and into Ohio - they loose this twang. TN sounds different.

When I moved to Fla in 1960 the locals in Central Fl thought I talked to fast and called me a Yankee.

In 2011 it is getting harder to determine the exact location the person orginated from, but in 1971 most people picked up on origins from the sound of the voice. My voice was distinctive in origin - yet NOT one person in my yrs being married to Duane ever pegged him as a Yankee or as a Southerner or Western. He actually had NO accent - but, one that blended. Not one time in our entire marriage did anyone even take a gander at where Duane was from...if they did I never heard it.

In 1971 - it was easy to peg someone as being from Chicago, New York, Canada and the South.. Mid West states seem neutral and without accent. I expect I never met anyone in those days from WA or CA.

Now getting to the question! What states did Florence and Tina grow up in?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[BruceSmith 3]

The FBI has twice investigated him. What made them come back for a second look much later?

377