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georger 247
QuoteSettle down georger, take a deep breath...
Did you not read this in my above post on DNA?QuoteI'm not a biologist but I count 4 basic types of Epithelial tissue with a few more subtypes.
I am self taught and have so far educated myself into a chronic depression.
You admit you don't know some things:Quotesnowman knows nothing about
genetics so far as I know, 377 either, and Blevins is
totally lost
So how do you know that tie was actually Cooper's?
How do you know the cells that the FBI have contains mitochondrial DNA?
I realize Keratinized cells can contain some mitochondrial DNA but you assume, I guess, that the sample the FBI has is Cooper's and contains some mitochondrial DNA.
My question to you is...how are you so sure of this?
respectfully, hangdiver
I am as calm as a swan in a pond.
The FBI went through extensive questioning to
establish there is a high probability the tie is
Cooper's. The people who worked this problem
were not guessers. Moreover if genetic tests tend
to confirm a prior physical description (including age)
that reflects back on the status of the tie's owner.
One examination of the tie tended to suggest the
tie had not spent much time in the State of
Washington? The tie lacked the forensic traits
commensurate with the seasonal cycle in WA ?
The first issue is cells and PCR. Included in that is
some estimate of viability in those cells. The next
issue is str's. What loci are available and which
loci do you examine, in how many independent
runs? Do you look fr other genetic products and
highly variable loci in those, sufficient to give the
examiner a statistical edge toward a useful result.
I have no idea how deep the examiners went -
that is the main issue for me. However, I take it
on faith the FBI has (at least one possible more!)
partials, which they say has exclusionary statistical
reliability ........ that says a lot if its true. But knowing
we are dealing with a spefcific haplotype to begin with
which presumably has yielded a 'partial' with which
exclusions can be made ... that goes a long way
especially in the context of a rather firm general
physical description in the first place?
Keep one thing in mind. The FBI tends to only
report (write reports) about POSITIVE FINDINGS
and often says nothing when lab reports are
negative. Given that rather stringent protocol then
a positive report should be taken seriously, in my
experience. Seriously means "seriously" and that
is where I think most people are failing on this issue.
It could be the FBI has very solid results, of the
results it did obtain and if that is the case then
further testing with modern technique is very much
warranted and .... will continue ... probably is already
in progress.
My opinions are shared by others in this matter.
I am expressing a consensus, I think.
Keratinised is speculation and highly variable
in individuals. Its not some light switch between
ON vs OFF! Epithelial can mean many things, and
I would not take Blevin's report as authoritative,
complete, or final.
Candidate-pushers have a vested interest in hearing
what they want to hear and interpreting everything
as they think serves their purpose ... I have no
candidate in this race except for Cooper himself!
I would like to clone him!
I realise all of this is speculation. I have never
had the tie to have people exmaine it and very
likely I never will ... beyond what Tom Kaye did.
My only advice is to continue looking at the tie for
forensic evidence.
Quote
Still, a life sentence is a bit extreme for a few bad words or what Q perceives as anti-social forum behavior.
If you look at risk versus reward I think it's worth letting Snow back. He finds stuff that nobody else does, time after time. What's the risk? A few swear words and a bad attitude once in a while? I can handle it.
Perhaps Snow can use my bad behavior free-pass quota. I should have a surplus in my account. Are they like frequent flyer miles Quade, can they be transferred?
377
I think it may have been the PURE VOLUME of posts and not what he was posting. He did get arrogant with Quade, but I still think a limited chance should be allowed. Snow was posting so many large - posts and sites and you could read for pages and it was all Snowmman. I expect what the DZ was unable to handle the volume of Snow's post.
Snow sounds complusive to me - and maybe he just got too carried away. Will he do the same thing again? Probably, but he will know the consequences and they will probably be swift. Perhaps if Snow has valuable information the thread needs - he could send it to one of us to hand off. This will put him back into the search - but with his own private monitor...one of us. If Quade see this process os working - maybe - just maybe he would let him back in.
Most of us do NOT want to take the chance we ourselves will get banned for passing and relaying Snows posts.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
377 22
Georger wrote:
QuoteCandidate-pushers have a vested interest in hearing
what they want to hear and interpreting everything
as they think serves their purpose ... I have no
candidate in this race except for Cooper himself!
I would like to clone him!
Funny Georger, but you would get a zygote and then a baby Cooper. Who would raise him? What if he turned out to be a Barb Dayton clone? How would that play in your home?
Yeah, I plead guity to "candidate pushing". I've chaged horses a few times too. At least I recognize my bias.
Its so easy to incorporate outcome bias into your analysis of DBC evidence. You cant be neutral no matter how hard you try. Effort can reduce bias but not eliminate it.
I even went so far as subject matter bias. I love radio and I searched deperately for some evidence that Cooper used two way radios to rendevous with an accomplice. I even made radio jumps proving it was feasible tio use a walkie talkie. I got 75 mile comms from an open canopy at about 10,000 ft. Got close to 100 miles at 16,000 ft. All for naught since there is zero evidence that Cooper was radio equipped.
Havent heard from Safe in a while. I've always wondered if he did the Skunk Cam Scam? I liked his video series on the money find, even though I disagreed with some of it. Safe put a lot of thought and work into those videos.
I know nothing about genetics but my kid does. He is a synthetic bio major with a job in a top research lab with all the very latest toys. His wife is a PhD candidate in genetics. He can run some PCR stuff in his lab if someone can get me some tie samples.
How come Tom gets tie stuff and we don't? I know there is only so much to go arond, but he didnt do genetic analysis as far as I know and we can do those tests.
Come on Ckret, send me a sample. Its no skin off your neck, just Cooper's.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Spell bounding book, but perhaps just for me - the flashbacks I keep having and the question I keep asking myself. Did I read thisi Book before? Not that I am aware of.
I am quiet well aware that there have been many articles about the Mann Gulch Fire and that is why so much of it is familiar.
One thing in this book I know I never read anywhere and if I did I missed it. A colleague of Maclean's point out this to him:
"James Fenimore cooper had something like Dodge's fire burning in his favorite of his own novels, The Prairie, first published in 1827. Cooper's eastern readers are held in suspense throughout most of chapter 13 by the approach of a great prairies fire from which the old trapper rescues his party at the last momment by lighting a fire in advance of the main one and having it ready for human occupancy by the time the sheet of flames arrives".
The book goes on to explain that the Plains Indians also used this method. but was never taught in forestry training.
The book also mentions something else I was NOT aware of. When the forestry was short of hands the picked up Bar-Flys and used them - this was done with Mann Gulch.
Since Duane told me he had forestry training I am going to assume that was true - as it was one of the few stories when he used the first person. I believe this happened between 1944 and 1949...and I definitely know that at one point Duane was working in the forest near Placerville and Carson City. He use the first person regarding this. He had NO reason to lie about that.
I am only half-way thru the book, but these are things I am picking-up on. I also want to know anything I can about 2 men who died in that fire - I need Snowmman!
David R. Navon from the Modesto, CA. and Newton R. Thompson from Alhambra, CA.
I need to know the background on these guys - where they went to school and where they were trained and their ages. How and why the ended up in Mann Gulch.
Also not that the Johnson Flyer's supplied the planes, pilots and spotters for most of the Smokejumpers.
That leads me right back to Ed Hurand, Huran, Horan or Horand. The blue eyed scarred or pock face friend of Duane's who knew him from WA and the West. Something to do with planes and helicopters - he told me that Duane would tell me about that when he was ready - but I NEVER did ask Duane how he knew Ed or tell him about our brief conversation in 1978.
Ed is the one who worked for American Income out of Waco, TX and the company would NOT give me any information about his siting the privacy law. Yet, Ed had to be deceased by now as he was diabetic in 1981 or 1982 - the last time I saw him at a meeting in Atlanta, GA. That is when I took the picture of him.
Find Ed Horand and we will find more out about Duane Weber's background and his connection to WA, ID, and OR. Strangely enough the more I research and the more I find the more convinced I am that Duane Weber was Dan Cooper. I do not understand the FBI's reluctance to look at Duane's past - 1944 to 1968 and go more indepth...especially 1944 to 1949 (there lies the secrets of the past).
Who dropped the communication apparatus for the jumper - it broke when it hit the ground. The doomed jumpers had NO communication because of this.
Why was Weber so astute with CB's and other communication devices? What was in the Paper bag Cooper carried aboard the 727? Why did he choose a flight that had just come out of Missoula? Answer these and you might know why the FBI was looking for a smokejumper!
I am quiet well aware that there have been many articles about the Mann Gulch Fire and that is why so much of it is familiar.
One thing in this book I know I never read anywhere and if I did I missed it. A colleague of Maclean's point out this to him:
"James Fenimore cooper had something like Dodge's fire burning in his favorite of his own novels, The Prairie, first published in 1827. Cooper's eastern readers are held in suspense throughout most of chapter 13 by the approach of a great prairies fire from which the old trapper rescues his party at the last momment by lighting a fire in advance of the main one and having it ready for human occupancy by the time the sheet of flames arrives".
The book goes on to explain that the Plains Indians also used this method. but was never taught in forestry training.
The book also mentions something else I was NOT aware of. When the forestry was short of hands the picked up Bar-Flys and used them - this was done with Mann Gulch.
Since Duane told me he had forestry training I am going to assume that was true - as it was one of the few stories when he used the first person. I believe this happened between 1944 and 1949...and I definitely know that at one point Duane was working in the forest near Placerville and Carson City. He use the first person regarding this. He had NO reason to lie about that.
I am only half-way thru the book, but these are things I am picking-up on. I also want to know anything I can about 2 men who died in that fire - I need Snowmman!
David R. Navon from the Modesto, CA. and Newton R. Thompson from Alhambra, CA.
I need to know the background on these guys - where they went to school and where they were trained and their ages. How and why the ended up in Mann Gulch.
Also not that the Johnson Flyer's supplied the planes, pilots and spotters for most of the Smokejumpers.
That leads me right back to Ed Hurand, Huran, Horan or Horand. The blue eyed scarred or pock face friend of Duane's who knew him from WA and the West. Something to do with planes and helicopters - he told me that Duane would tell me about that when he was ready - but I NEVER did ask Duane how he knew Ed or tell him about our brief conversation in 1978.
Ed is the one who worked for American Income out of Waco, TX and the company would NOT give me any information about his siting the privacy law. Yet, Ed had to be deceased by now as he was diabetic in 1981 or 1982 - the last time I saw him at a meeting in Atlanta, GA. That is when I took the picture of him.
Find Ed Horand and we will find more out about Duane Weber's background and his connection to WA, ID, and OR. Strangely enough the more I research and the more I find the more convinced I am that Duane Weber was Dan Cooper. I do not understand the FBI's reluctance to look at Duane's past - 1944 to 1968 and go more indepth...especially 1944 to 1949 (there lies the secrets of the past).
Who dropped the communication apparatus for the jumper - it broke when it hit the ground. The doomed jumpers had NO communication because of this.
Why was Weber so astute with CB's and other communication devices? What was in the Paper bag Cooper carried aboard the 727? Why did he choose a flight that had just come out of Missoula? Answer these and you might know why the FBI was looking for a smokejumper!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 247
I tend to believe (for a number of reasons until proven wrong) the FBI or whoever, stuck to basic tests - nothing fancy or innovative.QuoteGeorger wrote:
QuoteCandidate-pushers have a vested interest in hearing
what they want to hear and interpreting everything
as they think serves their purpose ... I have no
candidate in this race except for Cooper himself!
I would like to clone him!
Funny Georger, but you would get a zygote and then a baby Cooper. Who would raise him? What if he turned out to be a Barb Dayton clone? How would that play in your home?
Yeah, I plead guity to "candidate pushing". I've chaged horses a few times too. At least I recognize my bias.
Its so easy to incorporate outcome bias into your analysis of DBC evidence. You cant be neutral no matter how hard you try. Effort can reduce bias but not eliminate it.
I even went so far as subject matter bias. I love radio and I searched deperately for some evidence that Cooper used two way radios to rendevous with an accomplice. I even made radio jumps proving it was feasible tio use a walkie talkie. I got 75 mile comms from an open canopy at about 10,000 ft. Got close to 100 miles at 16,000 ft. All for naught since there is zero evidence that Cooper was radio equipped.
Havent heard from Safe in a while. I've always wondered if he did the Skunk Cam Scam? I liked his video series on the money find, even though I disagreed with some of it. Safe put a lot of thought and work into those videos.
I know nothing about genetics but my kid does. He is a synthetic bio major with a job in a top research lab with all the very latest toys. His wife is a PhD candidate in genetics. He can run some PCR stuff in his lab if someone can get me some tie samples.
How come Tom gets tie stuff and we don't? I know there is only so much to go arond, but he didnt do genetic analysis as far as I know and we can do those tests.
Come on Ckret, send me a sample. Its no skin off your neck, just Cooper's.
377
To whatever extent that is true then their results
may in fact be 'minimal'. More could be done?
That is my hope.
I am still not convinced the cigarette butts were
tossed out. And that other dna yielding evidence
may also exist.
I thought Hangdiver did some very good digging
and asked some very good questions. I thought I
stated that. Especially if he has no background in
biochem or genetics. He seems to have a good
nose for digging and asking meaningful
questions ... I hope he asks more!
But alas, we are still dealing with "outlines", just
as Labyrs observed. I wonder if he still reads this
forum - if so I hope he still has his good humor.
Labrys still has my attention -
My opinion is we have to take 'partial'
and 'exclusionary' very seriously, as gospel, which
also then reflects the type and level of testing that
was done but also stipulates in a general manner
the quality of materials that were present on the
tie. If my opinion is true, I think that is optimistic.
Because, my bias is the evidence itself in the hope
there was and still is viable evidence, for its own
sake. Otherwise it would not have passed the FBI's
protocol test to be mentioned very cyrptically in
one short paragraph, at all? That's my guess based
on what sources have stated.
When I read "epithelial" last night I laughed. Why?
That is the sure sign of someone trying to be
specific-accurate about a subject matter that
requires more just because of its very nature,
without being specific or accurate! To me its still
funny when I roll it over on my tongue - epi- thelial!
Very funny stuff when you know what was left out.
So I will be "epithelial" and cover the exposed
filament of this post, before a mutation can occur
and grow because, I fully expect a candidate pusher
take-over of the whole topic.
377 22
G wrote
Unlikely. Candidate pushers have no reproductive or recruitment advantages. I think the scientific forum posters will dominate given enough time.
Give me some tie tissue and some testing protocols. I can "get er done".
377
QuoteSo I will be "epithelial" and cover the exposed
filament of this post, before a mutation can occur
and grow because, I fully expect a candidate pusher
take-over of the whole topic.
Unlikely. Candidate pushers have no reproductive or recruitment advantages. I think the scientific forum posters will dominate given enough time.
Give me some tie tissue and some testing protocols. I can "get er done".
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Farflung 0
Now that we are painfully aware (kinda) of how the mere mention of a Dan Cooper comic book spawned a micro industry of investigation and intrigue; could this happen again? No not Dan Cooper but some equally eccentric, absurd and socially crippling subject which may still be glistening from the dark recess from which it was plucked. Given enough time all subjects gain some momentum like Kennedy assassination conspiracies where the theorists don’t have a clue about the end game of their own creation. OK it was the government that snuffed him, now what? (insert long pause with unblinking stare here)
For instance: On 19 Dec 2008, snowmman published what he called a ‘whacked out theory’ as far as filtering good information about Cooper informants by making them answer the following:
“Who was at the 1962 Seattle World’s Fair and rode the Bubbleator?”
And - “Do you remember how the operator was dressed like Flash Gordon?”
In just over two years the Bubbleator is the index for fixing Sheridan Peterson even deeper into Cooper lore as a Bubbleator Operator which carried none other than Elvis Presley. This fair was opened by none other than JFK so now most bases are covered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6ecS-xFfvE
You saw it starting at 4:36, the Bubbleator doing things they could only dream about regarding ‘Century 21’ where we are so much more sophisticated now and stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t5na44D0Dw
Can you imagine the time wasted with dialing a phone? Almost makes sending smoke signals with a damp, small pox infected blanket seem efficient. Stupid people from the 60’s. Back then I used to waste several seconds dialing a phone every week or so, now I have ‘unlimited and constant’ access to texting, Twitters, chat, PM’s, SMS, Facebook, email and voicemail. Well I can certainly attest to being the master of this tech…. hold on…. Someone likes my last Facebook post and….. gave me a thumbs up. I’ve got to Twitter this information….. while doing price comparisons… on Beanie Baby collections on eBay… BRB… yeah, in your face ‘SpoogeTanic69’ cos I got the highest bid for that autographed picture of Randy Mantooth in the last second and was the WINNER. BTW, FTW.
Did anyone notice if Dan Cooper was in or around the Bubbleator?
For instance: On 19 Dec 2008, snowmman published what he called a ‘whacked out theory’ as far as filtering good information about Cooper informants by making them answer the following:
“Who was at the 1962 Seattle World’s Fair and rode the Bubbleator?”
And - “Do you remember how the operator was dressed like Flash Gordon?”
In just over two years the Bubbleator is the index for fixing Sheridan Peterson even deeper into Cooper lore as a Bubbleator Operator which carried none other than Elvis Presley. This fair was opened by none other than JFK so now most bases are covered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6ecS-xFfvE
You saw it starting at 4:36, the Bubbleator doing things they could only dream about regarding ‘Century 21’ where we are so much more sophisticated now and stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t5na44D0Dw
Can you imagine the time wasted with dialing a phone? Almost makes sending smoke signals with a damp, small pox infected blanket seem efficient. Stupid people from the 60’s. Back then I used to waste several seconds dialing a phone every week or so, now I have ‘unlimited and constant’ access to texting, Twitters, chat, PM’s, SMS, Facebook, email and voicemail. Well I can certainly attest to being the master of this tech…. hold on…. Someone likes my last Facebook post and….. gave me a thumbs up. I’ve got to Twitter this information….. while doing price comparisons… on Beanie Baby collections on eBay… BRB… yeah, in your face ‘SpoogeTanic69’ cos I got the highest bid for that autographed picture of Randy Mantooth in the last second and was the WINNER. BTW, FTW.
Did anyone notice if Dan Cooper was in or around the Bubbleator?
Did you not read this in my above post on DNA?
I am self taught and have so far educated myself into a chronic depression.
You admit you don't know some things:
So how do you know that tie was actually Cooper's?
How do you know the cells that the FBI have contains mitochondrial DNA?
I realize Keratinized cells can contain some mitochondrial DNA but you assume, I guess, that the sample the FBI has is Cooper's and contains some mitochondrial DNA.
My question to you is...how are you so sure of this?
respectfully, hangdiver
"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan
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