Farflung 0 #22901 May 13, 2011 377, I’ve tried to attach pictures of my leg straps but I’m thwarted by the doers of chaos on the interwebs. Every time I attempt to do the most fundamental investigation into parachutes I’m thrown into some sort of weird and freaky fifth dimension by the Google search function. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5akEgsZSfhg I don’t think I’ll make it to see the end…. Strength fading fast…. Must reach ‘Post Reply’ button…. Arghhh… (cough…. cough)…. Feeling as if my essence has been taken…. Try and save yourself…. Can’t last much longkskhstrfeos/*9(……. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl8e_8cTKgI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 50 #22902 May 13, 2011 QuoteQuoteWhen he jumped off the airstairs of that 727, it wasn't the FIRST time he had used a parachute. Nobody in their right mind would even plan such a thing without at least a minimum of experience. That is logical, but it may not be what happened. Snow posted info about other successful jet skyjack jumps and at least one of the guys had no prior parachute experience as I recall. I suspect Cooper knew a lot about 727s and about parachuting too. His orders about flap angles and altitude tell me he was well informed. 377 377, Cooper's knowledge of the 727's rear stairs and the flight conditions for dropping parachutists and equipment down the rear stairs is why the initial pool of suspects in late 1971 was probably less than 500 people worldwide. If I remember correctly, about 1500 people have already confessed to being Cooper and/or been investigated as possible suspects. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #22903 May 13, 2011 Quote377, I’ve tried to attach pictures of my leg straps but I’m thwarted by the doers of chaos on the interwebs. Every time I attempt to do the most fundamental investigation into parachutes I’m thrown into some sort of weird and freaky fifth dimension by the Google search function. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5akEgsZSfhg I don’t think I’ll make it to see the end…. Strength fading fast…. Must reach ‘Post Reply’ button…. Arghhh… (cough…. cough)…. Feeling as if my essence has been taken…. Try and save yourself…. Can’t last much longkskhstrfeos/*9(……. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl8e_8cTKgI Sounds like a variant of the FBI POOF malware that has thwarted Jo. Try www.dogpile.com for your searches. It gives you Google results plus a lot more. How did you find that leg strap photo in your collage? As for the NB6, there was a rumor floating around in the late 60s that a guy who had sprayed all his harness webbing with Scotch Guard stain repellant fell out of his harness on opening as the webbing slipped right through the metal fittings. I think it was a bogus story, but maybe some scary slippage occured. As I recall there was a widened piece on the end of the adjsutable webbing to prevent it from coming completely through the fittings. Tried jumping last Sat but gusts over 40 mph kept everything grounded. Spent the day helping troubleshoot some electrical probs on the King Air jumpship. These old planes get pretty beat up hauling jumpers. See my photos below. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #22904 May 13, 2011 Skyjack71 says in part: Quote'If the FBI had nothing to hide about the past of Weber (they would have been forthcoming in a personal and explanatory letter to me yrs ago). They did NOT do this as all of you well know.' Why don't you contact Special Agent Frederick Gutt at the Seattle FBI and just ask him the Bureau's current stance on Weber as the hijacker? He has told me that Weber was eliminated for several reasons, most of which I considered valid: ============= U just do NOT get it. Agent Gutt is NOT the agent of Record but just a mouthpiece (deskclerk agent) who is reading what he is supposed to say off a computer screen. When Calls go into the FBI office they are routed according to the incoming number - I get a different Mouthpiece than you do. Neither of them are the AGENT OF RECORD and only know what they are reading off a CP screen. Did AGENT GUTT tell you the statment you made below? "Can't be placed in Washington state or Oregon at the time of the hijacking by any witness other than his wife". His WIFE of the days DID put him in WA and she had 2 sons in WA living there in 1971. Now SHUT your mouth before a fly get in there. Agent GUTT doesn't know how many wives Duane had either. Did AGENT Gutt talk to the step-daughter before she died without her mother being present? NO. Agent Gutt was not even there in 1996 when I called the FBI. Belvins stated: "I truly believe one thing about DB Cooper, whoever he was: When he jumped off the airstairs of that 727, it wasn't the FIRST time he had used a parachute. Nobody in their right mind would even plan such a thing without at least a minimum of experience. It wasn't a 'first jump' for him. It may have been his second, but he wasn't a virgin." That is the only thing I agree on with you. Geez, Louise - the FBI has never proven Duane did NOT have training. Note 16 heads - 13 died and 2 survived - who was number 16? Now you figure out who is on 1st base.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #22905 May 13, 2011 What "training" did Duane have? is there a DD-214 or similar proof? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #22906 May 13, 2011 377, Those Beech pics are the very definition of the aviation paradox. Which is also part of the ‘Cosmic Unconsciousness’ that Miller so eloquently references: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4QKiYar9pI Yep I’ve studied the greats of philosophy - Rawls, Homer and now Miller. As I get older their individual wisdom becomes more apparent. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcwYEGdKto8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faRlFsYmkeY I tried my level best to make a business plan for a $17 jump plane and for the life of me could do little more than make it into a slow death from evaporating revenues. That was starting with no debt service and flying some craft with an assumed life span of engine TBO to scrap and still could not find a way to fly for free. That is real hard duty going from the surface to alt two times an hour let alone three or four. I’ve listened to some guys (code for Corporate Fauntleroys) go on and on about how if they had a certain type of aircraft they could increase their efficiency in their company blah, blah, blah. They are always surprised at my resistance to corporate aviation since I was in the business. Just can’t get past planning a more efficient schedule or using the commercial infrastructure, driving or even ‘Mobilejets’ (http://www.mobilejets.com/) as a much more economic solution versus some sleek, sexy Beech Jet with a six digit cost for doing nothing more than sitting in a hangar. As long as the accelerated depreciation and tax breaks exist there will be a cadre of individuals who will claim that an aircraft is essential for their business. Even if that business is a single office medical practice where the plane is only used to fly to Aspen or Palm Springs for ‘seminars’. Usually while the Nth person is trying to convince me that they truly need one of these conveniences I just stare at the ceiling and think of England until they are through. But those kickers, sprayers and jump planes are another breed along with the wildlife inside. Both are used to maximum performance on a daily basis and receive meager reward for such reliable service. “No explanation, no point in lookin’ for one either.” - Miller Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #22907 May 13, 2011 Farflung, that kind of talk is likely to get you whacked by the bizjet industry. Tone it down a bit. I worked at a company that had a 30 million dollar bizjet. It blew a tire at an out of the way overseas airport and mildly dinged a wheel. Had to fly in parts and technicians. $72,000 later it was back in the air. Oh, and then there was the matter of getting some drawings, documentation and some kind of FAA paperwork done for non standard avionics rack. That took us into the six figure category. You dont even want to know what a new windshield wiper arm cost. Like you, I don't see how DZOs with twin turbine jumpships can afford to haul jumpers to 14,000 ft for $20. Fuel prices are through the roof and jump prices have only crept up a tiny bit. I've always thought a tethered balloon with a pulley on it and a ground mounted winch was the way to go. Kinda like a ski lift for skydivers. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #22908 May 13, 2011 QuoteWhat "training" did Duane have? is there a DD-214 or similar proof? Matt In the mid to late 40's I have no idea what certificates were needed. I expect those who do NOT know need to find out what Duane's father did prior to moving to CA from OH and know who his friends where. Family friends who assisted Duane's father in his move to CA in 1943 participated in an unusual hobby. Parts for old airplanes often had to be made because of the war.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #22909 May 13, 2011 Quotethe FBI has never proven Duane did NOT have training Jo, Surely you must see the futility in this line of investigation. The FBI cant prove a negative like that. Nobody can. That's why the burden is justifiably put on the claimant (you) to prove that Duane was a trained parachutist. Just showing he was involved in aviation isnt nearly enough. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 247 #22910 May 13, 2011 QuoteQuotethe FBI has never proven Duane did NOT have training Jo, Surely you must see the futility in this line of investigation. The FBI cant prove a negative like that. Nobody can. That's why the burden is justifiably put on the claimant (you) to prove that Duane was a trained parachutist. Just showing he was involved in aviation isnt nearly enough. 377 I am involved in aviation. I have pidgeons on my roof. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #22911 May 14, 2011 QuoteQuoteWhat "training" did Duane have? is there a DD-214 or similar proof? Matt In the mid to late 40's I have no idea what certificates were needed. I expect those who do NOT know need to find out what Duane's father did prior to moving to CA from OH and know who his friends where. Family friends who assisted Duane's father in his move to CA in 1943 participated in an unusual hobby. Parts for old airplanes often had to be made because of the war. If you have Duane's personal affects then you would have the proof. If he was a SM and was a Paratrooper there is a record of it. So prove your statement. I do not think you can, since I believe Duane was a two bit hood and crook, all the way to his death and conned you too. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #22912 May 15, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhat "training" did Duane have? is there a DD-214 or similar proof? Matt In the mid to late 40's I have no idea what certificates were needed. I expect those who do NOT know need to find out what Duane's father did prior to moving to CA from OH and know who his friends where. Family friends who assisted Duane's father in his move to CA in 1943 participated in an unusual hobby. Parts for old airplanes often had to be made because of the war. If you have Duane's personal affects then you would have the proof. If he was a SM and was a Paratrooper there is a record of it. So prove your statement. I do not think you can, since I believe Duane was a two bit hood and crook, all the way to his death and conned you too. Matt Exposure to planes and knowledge of jumping can happen thru association - 1943 to 1949 - do you REALLY believe that everyone who learned to jump was in a school of some kind. What about private planes and some guys trying to makes some money and innovations. What if an Uncle or Grandparent or a Family friend has their own plane and was trained himself? What about the individuals out there trying to make a buck - this was the time of innovation and inventions? A young man who is helping the trained individuals gather up their chutes and whose family is associated with the owners of the planes. Don't any of you realize there were LOTS of young men shown how to jump - maybe on their Uncle or Fathers own farm. I have already explained how Duane knew about the 727's but NO one ever listened. Perhaps some of you along with the FBI needs to check into Duane's father and Uncle's background. Then I suggest you take it one more step forward - Duane did learn the basics during WW11 while in the service. He had the opportunity, the knowledge of the plane and enough skill to pull it off. It is all right there in the family history - but the FBI did NOT go there. They never checked out another relative of Duane's who WAS a jumper in the WAR and as the story goes used that knowledge for OTHER endeavors.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 50 #22913 May 15, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWhat "training" did Duane have? is there a DD-214 or similar proof? Matt In the mid to late 40's I have no idea what certificates were needed. I expect those who do NOT know need to find out what Duane's father did prior to moving to CA from OH and know who his friends where. Family friends who assisted Duane's father in his move to CA in 1943 participated in an unusual hobby. Parts for old airplanes often had to be made because of the war. If you have Duane's personal affects then you would have the proof. If he was a SM and was a Paratrooper there is a record of it. So prove your statement. I do not think you can, since I believe Duane was a two bit hood and crook, all the way to his death and conned you too. Matt Exposure to planes and knowledge of jumping can happen thru association - 1943 to 1949 - do you REALLY believe that everyone who learned to jump was in a school of some kind. What about private planes and some guys trying to makes some money and innovations. What if an Uncle or Grandparent or a Family friend has their own plane and was trained himself? What about the individuals out there trying to make a buck - this was the time of innovation and inventions? A young man who is helping the trained individuals gather up their chutes and whose family is associated with the owners of the planes. Don't any of you realize there were LOTS of young men shown how to jump - maybe on their Uncle or Fathers own farm. I have already explained how Duane knew about the 727's but NO one ever listened. Perhaps some of you along with the FBI needs to check into Duane's father and Uncle's background. Then I suggest you take it one more step forward - Duane did learn the basics during WW11 while in the service. He had the opportunity, the knowledge of the plane and enough skill to pull it off. It is all right there in the family history - but the FBI did NOT go there. They never checked out another relative of Duane's who WAS a jumper in the WAR and as the story goes used that knowledge for OTHER endeavors. Jo, With all due respect, let's get serious about a couple of things. In the WWII and following years, the only thing dumber than a self-taught parachutist would be a do-it-yourself brain surgeon. If Duane didn't have a reasonably good instructor and good equipment, there is an excellent chance that he would have suffered some kind of injuries within 5 or 10 jumps. Whatever knowledge that Duane had of the commercial 727 is irrevelant. Cooper had specific knowledge about the stairway although he reportedly had trouble lowering it, but that can easily be explained. Only about 5 727s were used by CIA front organizations in southeast Asia. And Duane, with a police and prison records, would not have a security clearance or access to how these 727s had been modified or what they were being used for. So in my opinion, it is very unlikely that Duane had any parachuting experience (Cooper probably didn't either) or that he had access to information about the 727 that Cooper definitely had. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #22914 May 15, 2011 I think there is a lot to be said about self educated aviators like the Wright brothers, Glenn Curtiss and my personal favorite Cline Hogg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3mQ5EwXoFE Should uninsured, untrained and unafraid pilots be prevented from grabbing their dreams like Mr. Hogg? Well I say when pigs fly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TLmpL2AzLs What about the Third Amendment? You can have my Cyclic and Collective when you pry them from my cold dead hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 50 #22915 May 15, 2011 QuoteI think there is a lot to be said about self educated aviators like the Wright brothers, Glenn Curtiss and my personal favorite Cline Hogg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3mQ5EwXoFE Should uninsured, untrained and unafraid pilots be prevented from grabbing their dreams like Mr. Hogg? Well I say when pigs fly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TLmpL2AzLs What about the Third Amendment? You can have my Cyclic and Collective when you pry them from my cold dead hands. I don't know how the Third Amendment, which forbids the quartering of soldiers in private homes without the owner's consent, figures into this. But there is a famous saying in the aviation industry to the effect that aircraft designers should make the first flights of the aircraft they have designed. That way, bad aircraft designs will eliminate the bad designers. The Wright Brothers were indeed self-educated in the aviation field. Nevertheless, they were still the leading designers and pilots for several years after 12-17-1903. They had several aircraft accidents including the first fatal accident in the history of heavier-than-air machines. The smart pilots, parachutists, etc. are those that learn from the mistakes of others. Of course, someone has to be the first to make a specific mistake and suffer the consequences. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #22916 May 15, 2011 Jo wrote:QuoteExposure to planes and knowledge of jumping can happen thru association - 1943 to 1949 - do you REALLY believe that everyone who learned to jump was in a school of some kind. What about private planes and some guys trying to makes some money and innovations. Jo that's a huge leap of logic to go from messing around with flying, repairing and maintaining light aircraft to self taught parachutists who were improving current parachute designs through "innovations." I am pretty handy at fixing stuff on planes but I wouldn't have the slightest idea how to "innovate" parachute gear and I've been jumping for 43 years. Parachute design and modification is completely unrelated to aircraft mechanical work. Parachute riggers are more like sailmakers and designers than aircraft mechanics. Their tools are cutters, sewing machines etc. It is a skill that you aren't going to learn on your own just messing around with chutes. You are showing outcome bias. You want Duane to have been involved in parachuting prior to 71 so you morph a relative's aviation activities into home brew parachuting, rigging and parachute engineering. Jumping without training is very hazardous. Stable freefall doesn't come naturally. If you jump out of a plane with a bailout rig and no training you will go into a wild disorienting tumble. Show us one piece of evidence (not speculation) that shows Duane was ever involved in parachuting even as a chute gatherer. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #22917 May 15, 2011 Whatever knowledge that Duane had of the commercial 727 is irrevelant. Cooper had specific knowledge about the stairway although he reportedly had trouble lowering it, but that can easily be explained. Only about 5 727s were used by CIA front organizations in southeast Asia. And Duane, with a police and prison records, would not have a security clearance or access to how these 727s had been modified or what they were being used for. How many time do I have to tell you people Duane had schematics to the 727 and it predecessors available to him thru his brother. When the 727 was unveiled - find out who all attended and the names of all of those involved. Why didn't the FBI check this out while John was alive - and they can still do it. His history as an aviation engineer is NOT a secret. He was a consultant for Boeing during the war. Haven't you ever read anything I ever wrote about Duane's family background? You are just like the FBI - you ignore what you want to ignore! Duane did NOT need security clearance if he was involved in something he did to buy his way out of prison Everyone knows Soldiers of Fortune didn't need nor obtain clearance if they were under the wire. I am not saying Duane was a Soldier of Fortune and even though you think he was just hood - and not everything he did turned out bad. Duane's family was involved in aviation from the beginning - and if the FBI is encapable of finding this out that is THEIR problem. NOT mine.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #22918 May 15, 2011 You guys need to go back and read some of the things about the early 40's and aviation.. A group out of CA were the first to develope using chutes for the purpose of fighting fires. These guys needed plane part. That is about ALL you are going to get out of me, because I do NOT have the time to do what I am doing and repeat all the things that have been said in the past. I have much more important things on my mind right now. In the next few months if the FBI doesn't split out the truth - I have people who will be doing this for them. That is NOT a threat that is a PROMISE. The truth has been there all along. The FBI had a treasure trove at their finger tips and missed it.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #22919 May 15, 2011 Quote That is about ALL you are going to get out of me, because I do NOT have the time to do what I am doing and repeat all the things that have been said in the past. ... In the next few months if the FBI doesn't split out the truth - I have people who will be doing this for them. That is NOT a threat that is a PROMISE. The truth has been there all along. The FBI had a treasure trove at their finger tips and missed it. Of course it would be a waste of time repeating everything you've said.... As 377 noted, we are not interested in wild leaps of logic and wishful thinking. All you have is wild conjecture, not a shred of evidence of anything that has been discussed here....other than that Duane was a crook. You'll forgive us if we don't hold our breath for the promised revelation.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #22920 May 15, 2011 I took Jo's advice to go back and read some history. Doesn't quite gel with her view of the origins of smoke jumping. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokejumper#HistorySkydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #22921 May 15, 2011 QuoteHow many time do I have to tell you people Duane had schematics to the 727 and it predecessors available to him thru his brother. And how many times do we have to tell you that the "schematics" don't contain the answer to the question of whether the 727 stairs can be deployed in flight. I have a 727 flight manual full of info including system diagrams. It doesn't answer the question. Not one of the highly trained cockpit crewmen knew the answer. Boeing knew, but only as a result of flight tests that were conducted for covert ops. Jo, we still have open minds for evidence, but not for pure speculation about Duane's background in parachuting. You hint that Duane bought his way out if prison by agreeing to be some kind of James Bond. Nobody in their right mind would have picked Duane Weber for such a task. He was unreliable, untruthful, had poor judgment and could never have been trusted to be the guardian of a large amount of cash. Its true that you don't have many honest capable dependable people in prison, but I am 100% sure that there were many far better suited for a Norjack like caper than Duane was. The FBI, although tired of you, will still look at evidence tieing Duane to Norjack if you can produce it, but it is unrealistic for you to expect them to search for it. Put Duane in a chute or better yet on the plane with Tina, and you will have everybody's rapt attention. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #22922 May 15, 2011 From WikipediaQuote Cook claims to have obtained from William Mitchell, a passenger on the hijacked aircraft, regarding a mysterious "physical detail" (which he will not divulge) common to the hijacker and Gossett.[114] Any ideas what this physical detail is? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hangdiver 1 #22923 May 15, 2011 Well Farflung...you've done it again...! Posted my favorite DIY helicopter lesson! I have "some" helicopter time...mostly bootleg hours...with 2, yes (two) actually logged hours of instruction in crop dusting G model Bell helicopters. I have had the opportunity to try and fly without a safety pilot/instructor but declined due to having two brain cells functioning. In my two hours I did hovering 360s both directions with take offs and landings without instructor intervention...all the while screaming...I got it!...I got it! That was the hardest thing I've ever done in an aircraft! I'm sure you know helicopters don't fly...they beat the air into submission...boy, those were the days... I think the real hero is the guy with the camera...personally I would have been running as fast as possible away from the impending carnage...and I'm a videographer! Oh, one year I had to recover 3 crashed helicopters from the field...damn near broke the company...after that we had to operate with no insurance for a while...no one...and I mean no one...even Lloyds wouldn't talk to us. hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hangdiver 1 #22924 May 15, 2011 But back to cooper...Jo...if you have Duane's personal belongings and you find something like this, see attached photo, you might convince us of Duane's parachuting experience... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #22925 May 15, 2011 I thought it may help having a few examples of less than perfect demonstrations of aerial prowess. What if a middle aged housewife got into an ultra light aircraft but only flew for a short distance and kept it low? The brochures say any one can fly them with a minimum of instruction. But what precisely is the benchmark for minimum instruction anyway and why is this viewed as a feature? I mean it’s not like anyone would ever just take off without any flight instruction. ‘cause that would be stupid and stuff. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjrxfrr7oE8 What about a little, tiny, itty-bitty helicopter with a 2 stroke engine being flown by a friend of the owner? Helicopters won’t crash like fixed wing aircraft thanks to autorotation! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq3GRFOKK2g Perhaps he is a former friend now. Hey! can there be anything better than a quick flight on a beautiful summer day? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkeqQY3t174 Who wants an Orange Whip? I know all that dry air at altitude always leaves me with a powerful thirst. I wonder if they contacted Guinness about completing the’ World’s Shortest and Most Exciting Flight’. I think I would have just been content with having a few Guinness’ afterwards. Oh well. Be that as it may, all of these flights were survived by all occupants in spite of operator incompetence. Of the three Cooper Copy Cats, the most experienced was the one to suffer the greatest injury. McNally jumped after reading the how to skydive instructions which were part of his ransom demands. Maybe Duane did learn to skydive on the farm; although I’m not sure what a farm has to do with skydiving or flying, but it must have some relevance as this was not questioned like the Third Amendment’s. Hangdiver, your actions best reflect the aviation axiom “There are old pilots, there are bold pilots, there are NO - OLD BOLD PILOTS.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
