DB Cooper

[sailshaw 0]

Jo:
You stated: "Where were you when they handed out brains. Don't you know she no longer lives in WA?Did I say I had interviewed her?
I don't like maps!"

I say: We all know that Blonds were not there for the handing out of brains!

And yes I know Janet no longer lives at her house in Vancouver. Why did you think otherwise? I thought you had mentioned in one of your ramblings that you interviewed her in her home and therefore knew where she lived. I guess you really don't have her address at the time of the skyjacking! I don't know why I read what you post as it always goes no where and only brings more manufactured stories of your husband who was certainly not DB Cooper.
Bob

[Robert99 50]

Blevins, Has Rataczak responded to you recent e-mail asking about the flight path through the Portland area?

Robert Nicholson

[Orange1 0]

Sailshaw, not all blondes are dumb.

Jo, firstly the pilots only thought they knew where he jumped after the pressure bump thought to have been caused by him actually jumping. Did not know when he was on the stairs. And even if they did...knocking a guy off the stairs when he has a parachute on and is about to jump anyway is hardly an issue. I bet practically every skydiver on this forum has had an incident where they have left the plane earlier than planned...we're all still around.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Quote

1971 PDX VORTAC = 2010 BTG VORTAC

In 1971, "Miles west of PDX" refers to PDX VORTAC or PDX Airport?

ANYONE - Remember this post?
Who decided at that time the map should be read this way or that way. A thread decides what the man who did the map was referring to? Was that the same map done in 1971 or a later version after 1980? The FBI just does NOT give out information like that.

Jo, Your persecution complex is out in full force today.

Neither the FBI, CIA, Bob Knoss, Elvis, Sluggo, or I had anything to do with changing the name of the 1971 era PDX VORTAC to the present day BTG VORTAC.

The FAA is the responsible party for making such changes. And based on my decades of experience with the FAA, I haven't seen anything to indicate that it is a sinister organization.

And frankly my dear, I doubt if the FAA gives a hoot to hell whether Duane Weber was Cooper or not. But that is your problem.

In reality, the name was probably changed to prevent confusion with changes the FAA wanted to make with the nav-aids on the Portland (or PDX) airport. There is now a low powered VOR on the Portland airport that has the "PDX" identifier that used to be used by the one that is now the "BTG" VORTAC.

Robert Nicholson

[Farflung 0]

First about ‘the map’. It was revealed through some of the most painstaking deconstruction in the history of this thread that the formerly ‘Super Secret Double Naught FBI Gubberment’ map of utterly unknown origins was in fact a pedestrian FAA sectional chart used by private pilots (aka Bugsmashers).

Recall how certain data was used in order to determine that particular document being a First Edition? Search “Fear and Loathing” on this forum to read the analysis on page 698 of this thread.

Around 1971 the FAA finally got around to standardizing some things which were simply baffling and confounding to the growing traffic in the skies. Imagine having a Portland Airport, Vortac, Intersection, Approach, Departure and ADF?

Now imagine monitoring the radios and hearing a cacophony of calls for something involving Portland.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVq4_HhBK8Y

Not that much of a stretch. I remember watching this movie on base in a packed theater and thought there was going to be damage done to the building from the guttural laughing of several hundred crew dogs.

Intersections were standardized to five (5) letters and typically sound like nothing else in the area. Same for the Victor airways which had previously ‘brain dead’ designations which were simply imponderable.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

First about ‘the map’. It was revealed through some of the most painstaking deconstruction in the history of this thread that the formerly ‘Super Secret Double Naught FBI Gubberment’ map of utterly unknown origins was in fact a pedestrian FAA sectional chart used by private pilots (aka Bugsmashers).

Recall how certain data was used in order to determine that particular document being a First Edition? Search “Fear and Loathing” on this forum to read the analysis on page 698 of this thread.

Around 1971 the FAA finally got around to standardizing some things which were simply baffling and confounding to the growing traffic in the skies. Imagine having a Portland Airport, Vortac, Intersection, Approach, Departure and ADF?

Now imagine monitoring the radios and hearing a cacophony of calls for something involving Portland.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVq4_HhBK8Y

Not that much of a stretch. I remember watching this movie on base in a packed theater and thought there was going to be damage done to the building from the guttural laughing of several hundred crew dogs.

Intersections were standardized to five (5) letters and typically sound like nothing else in the area. Same for the Victor airways which had previously ‘brain dead’ designations which were simply imponderable.

Jo, Farflung is pointing out his post #17427, page 698, above. You should take a look at that post and your subsequent comments to it.

Also Jo, why can't you view the maps on Sluggo's web page? You have previously stated that you got your first computer about 10 years ago. Unless you bought a used personal computer that uses punched cards, you should be able to view everything on Slugg's site.

If you do have a personal computer that uses punched cards, get in touch with some museum. They will probably pay you enough money for it to finance another trip to Portland.

Robert Nicholson

[skyjack71 0]

Regarding my post stated here:

Jo Stated:
Where were you when they handed out brains. Don't you know she no longer lives in WA?Did I say I had interviewed her?
I don't like maps!"

Sailshaw stated:
We all know that Blondes were not there for the handing out of brains!

Sailshaw came back with this:

"And yes I know Janet no longer lives at her house in Vancouver. Why did you think otherwise? I thought you had mentioned in one of your ramblings that you interviewed her in her home and therefore knew where she lived. I guess you really don't have her address at the time of the skyjacking! I don't know why I read what you post as it always goes no where and only brings more manufactured stories of your husband who was certainly not DB Cooper".


Jo has this to say:

Sailshaw!
Somewhere along the line I thought I made a post stating you needed to go to the courthouse and check marriage certificates, divorce records, property records, parking tickets, etc. Then YOU would know what Janet's address was in WA. I also mentioned that Galen Cook does NOT have her old address.
I couldn't find the post so maybe I had a SENIOR MOMENT.

Sometime I make posts and then accidentally delete it.

Manufactured Stories? YOUR story is manufactured. You knew Sheridan Peterson for 1 month and the man is still alive to defend himself (I hope) since the other poster seemed to be a Sheridan imposter.

I find it ODD we get a Sheridan imposter after you came here to TOOT your story about Sheridan.
It had to be someone who was unaware that you cannot have two posting ID's. We had others who tried this - and they were found out very quickly and banned. Perhaps it was just someone trying to pull a spoof, but I seriously do not believe it was Sheridan (did NOT sound and re-act the way Sheridan did).

By the way the stories I tell I have been telling for 15 yrs - so I guess you never read the thread in its entirety, nor the closed thread, nor the unsolved mysteries.

I guess I am MASS Producing Stories. Sounds like you have been talking to JT. My back-up paper work of 15 yrs and tapes - prove I am not manufacturing anything...I keep trying to get the FBI to really hear what I am saying...but, all I get is an echo.
If I live long enough - they will hear me LOUD and CLEAR.

P.S. Someone show me a post where I claimed to have interviewed Janet. That is BS or I am having serious Senior Moments.

Tired of the Blonde Roots because some idiots take me seriously.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

In reality, the name was probably changed to prevent confusion with changes the FAA wanted to make with the nav-aids on the Portland (or PDX) airport. There is now a low powered VOR on the Portland airport that has the "PDX" identifier that used to be used by the one that is now the "BTG" VORTAC.

Robert Nicholson

BUT, the change was MADE AFTER the map was done for the 1971 incident. How did you verified what the intentions of the man who did the map? Conjecture and suppositions? How do you know exactly what he was mapping. I tried to read that map on the computer - but I have to have something I can HOLD in my hands. If that map was given to Sluggo - why can't the FBI provide me a hard paper copy of it?

It has now become FBI released information so I want to see it and have someone else beside you and Sluggo tell me what that map means.

Why did the media report per the map everyone used until 1980? Even after 1980 2 books where published using the OLD flight path the public was aware of and not this NEW one.

By the way WHY don't you PICK up the phone and call Ratazak himself? Why use a 3rd party whose interpretation will be to benefit his subject. Now who does NOT do their own research.

Yea, you bet I have a hair where it shouldn't be - because I got a lot to do in a short period of time and do not know how I am going to get it done. Sure don't want to die in jail in Seattle if the FBI has me arrested. Remember Carr's threat about my coming to Seattle?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo, Farflung is pointing out his post #17427, page 698, above. You should take a look at that post and your subsequent comments to it.

Also Jo, why can't you view the maps on Sluggo's web page? You have previously stated that you got your first computer about 10 years ago. Unless you bought a used personal computer that uses punched cards, you should be able to view everything on Slugg's site.

If you do have a personal computer that uses punched cards, get in touch with some museum. They will probably pay you enough money for it to finance another trip to Portland.

Robert Nicholson

Because I have dial-up is what I have been told. One time his photos showed for me, but after that all I get are X's. I can't read any of the new articles he has posted. I have never seen what pictures of Duane he used.

I was able to read the forums when Galen was posting...I could have posted, but chose to stay quiet and not get involved out of courtesy for Sluggo. Sluggo will tell you I am able to post - just didn't....because it was the right thing to do.

Lots of sites you guys refer me to I can't get to. NO I refuse to give up my aol filing cabinet to be able to afford cable or whatever is required. I would rather use that MONEY to go back to WA and I AM GOING COME HELL OR HIGH WATER UNLESS THE FBI SHOWS UP AT MY DOOR WITH SOME ANSWERS.

I haven't been able to get to the agent of record since Carr left - just the mouthpiece. The desk agent gave me a message of sorts that indicated something was going on (after I got back from my Oct. 2010 trip) and then the next call he didn't seem to remember what he said on the 1st call.

When I got back from WA he indicated that I needed to "be QUIET for a few more weeks" "We have suspect on the radar we didn't have before and would not want any harm to come to you". There was some more conversation after that because I didn't understand why I should be "quiet". Then I waited about 3 months and called again - he said "these thing take time - a few more weeks". I waited and waited and then a few wks ago I felt enough time had passed and when I called he hung up on me.

He was reading the usual things off the screen and then I believed he improvised with what I think may have got him in some hot water. I have no clue if the FBI has ever looked at the things I told them about (because I was telling the retired Himmelsbach - not the FBI office all of these yrs.) I do NOT do paper very well and I do not interview very well. I jump from one thing to the next before I forget it and the 1st question never gets answered. I can't stick with the question because when the other thing pops in my head if I don't bust out with it I will forget to mention it later.

I will not give up until the FBI puts something in front of me that proves to me Duane was NOT Cooper and he was NOT involved. I need to know if the picture of the little girl and the book belongs to Tina. Why did he leave a Soldier of Fortune Mag in a safety deposit box I had no knowledge of? Why didn't the question the man who found the wallet better - why didn't they do a background check on that man?

All of things Duane did and said - there is NO way all of these things fit the crime itself and afterwards. If Duane was planning this - it would have been very difficult to provide clues over a 17 yrs marriage that where consistent with a crime he never dreamt I would look into this deeply. NOT one word of my story is made up nor a fantasy nor a lie.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Quote

In reality, the name was probably changed to prevent confusion with changes the FAA wanted to make with the nav-aids on the Portland (or PDX) airport. There is now a low powered VOR on the Portland airport that has the "PDX" identifier that used to be used by the one that is now the "BTG" VORTAC.

Robert Nicholson

BUT, the change was MADE AFTER the map was done for the 1971 incident. How did you verified what the intentions of the man who did the map? Conjecture and suppositions? How do you know exactly what he was mapping. I tried to read that map on the computer - but I have to have something I can HOLD in my hands. If that map was given to Sluggo - why can't the FBI provide me a hard paper copy of it?

It has now become FBI released information so I want to see it and have someone else beside you and Sluggo tell me what that map means.

Why did the media report per the map everyone used until 1980? Even after 1980 2 books where published using the OLD flight path the public was aware of and not this NEW one.

By the way WHY don't you PICK up the phone and call Ratazak himself? Why use a 3rd party whose interpretation will be to benefit his subject. Now who does NOT do their own research.

Yea, you bet I have a hair where it shouldn't be - because I got a lot to do in a short period of time and do not know how I am going to get it done. Sure don't want to die in jail in Seattle if the FBI has me arrested. Remember Carr's threat about my coming to Seattle?

Jo, If you had been been paying attention for the past year or two, you would already know that I don't believe the flight paths that are depicted on those FBI charts are accurate in the first place (especially in the Portland area).

As far as Blevins e-mail to Rataczak about the flight path in the Portland area, if Rataczak says "east of Portland" I would like to know his basis for making that statement.

In the meantime, just take your medications and get a good night's sleep. Things will probably look better tomorrow.

Further, add me to you list of critics objecting to your continual reference to a "dumb blonde syndrome". I have a number of relatives that have blonde hair, as well as blue eyes, and they are certainly not dumb.

Maybe there is such a syndrome in your family, but there isn't one in mine.

Robert Nicholson

[Farflung 0]

So I just got back from looking at my ‘Portrait of Failure’ mounted above the bathroom sink and reached a few salient conclusions.

That is the lack of alignment and confidence on this thread. This is not the same as some ‘Lord of the Flies’ environment with some Byzantine hierarchy which involves the sacrifice of virgins with multiple mantras being chanted from various camps.

Information can be spoon fed to individuals with full attribution and pictures and documents and examples in reality based situations. Ultimately it is the ‘receiver’ who will declare one data set valid and another moot based upon it matching a pre plotted curve. I want to believe ‘X’ and ‘X’ has the following conditions, so I’m hunting for those conditions. What folly.

It is surprising how frenetic activities are still viewed as superior to a few thoughtful moments crafting a process with cross checks and end points. You can read the contempt for people using just ‘keyboards’ to do research versus some field activity started without any criteria or measure or way to measure the results. That’s because the results already exist on that pre plotted curve therefore any variation or lack of observables is not even a consideration.

Be informed that adult humans of breeding and voting age have gone into the woods searching for Bigfoot by playing recordings of Bigfoot ‘calls’. These same people have clearly not questioned the source of the Bigfoot ‘calls’ as a Bigfoot has never been captured therefore never been recorded. Yes they take themselves deadly seriously and have titles and ‘credentials’ based upon how many years they have been investigating.

http://www.bfro.net/

I would say it has a sort of ‘douche bag’ feel to it except georger would jump to the conclusion that some damsel’s hygiene is being impugned while viewing himself as some sort of heroic preserver of her virtues. Then I would have to explain to georger that ‘douche bags’ have not existed since the long chain polymer process was perfected in the late 40’s and this device has become a synonym for punk. He would then go into hiding again and never acknowledge his boundless ability to display his donkey while fully believing he is Aquaman instead of a Depends customer.

Now the intent of some DMA/FAA, cartographer is required because the existing data did not match that blasted pre plotted curve. If his or her intent don’t match the curve then their teachers, preachers and therapists will need to be interviewed. This will require more field work and therefore generate more credibility and status for the person involved. Certainly better than just using a keyboard.

I recall asking about the volume of material processed at the Fazio Gravel Yard and was told if I would just make a simple phone call (passive aggressive) I would get the answer to where the Tena Bar money came from. Here we go again.

The result of that ‘simple phone call’ to the Fazio’s would be exactly the same as it was when the first, second, third and whatever phone calls were made to those badgered brothers. People on this thread actually appear to think that three different phone calls to ask the same question are three times more believable than one. Holy cow. That’s excluding the oft repeated bragging rights of who talked to whom the latest, how many times and over what span of years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1wg1DNHbNU

Same as it ever was (1:43–2:15) …..

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo, If you had been been paying attention for the past year or two, you would already know that I don't believe the flight paths that are depicted on those FBI charts are accurate in the first place (especially in the Portland area).

As far as Blevins e-mail to Rataczak about the flight path in the Portland area, if Rataczak says "east of Portland" I would like to know his basis for making that statement.

In the meantime, just take your medications and get a good night's sleep. Things will probably look better tomorrow.

Further, add me to you list of critics objecting to your continual reference to a "dumb blonde syndrome". I have a number of relatives that have blonde hair, as well as blue eyes, and they are certainly not dumb.

Maybe there is such a syndrome in your family, but there isn't one in mine.

Robert Nicholson

I refused ALL pain meds after about 24 hours after my surgery. They provided scripts I never filled and dealt with it. I do NOT feel pain the way other people do and why my health situation got so drastic before they decided to go take a look see.

As for the Dumb Blonde Syndrome - that has been going on since high school.....because I cannot tell a joke and I do NOT get jokes...they also call it Most Likely To Get Lost In A Crowd!
I was in the Top Ten and part of the right crowd just a little naive.

The title stuck! As an adult I was told "Dumb Blonde Syndrome" or "Are your roots Blonde?"
It has always just been a joke and not an insult to those who do have Blonde hair - this is a left over from the 50's 60's expressions

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Jo said:

Quote

Tell me something - the FBI doesn't give out information - so how did Sluggo get this map?

Jo,

Let’s get some things straight:

(1) I have never altered or distorted ANY map published on my web site or posted on this thread. Never… EVER…

If you can’t read a sectional chart, that’s your problem not mine.


(2) I got the map from the FBI (actually it was a .jpg file). They gave it to me because I asked for it.
I was nice… I was respectful… I asked about usage… I asked about distribution… The map content had already been published (in the Seattle PI {I think}) at a very low resolution (unusable resolution), I asked if I could have a higher resolution version. The original paper map (covered in plastic film to preserve it) was scanned and the .jpg file was sent to me.

NOTE: I didn’t demand it… I didn’t threaten them (well maybe I did mention the FOIA). I didn’t accuse them of a cover-up. I didn’t say they weren’t doing their job. I didn’t demand they investigate my deceased brother for no other reason than he told me he was DB Cooooooper. In other words, I was nice to them.

You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. And, if you need those flies to help you… you leave your can of Raid at home.

OR:

If it easier for you, just think of it like this… “Sluggo is an undercover worker-bee employed by the FBI just to sabotage your investigation into your deceased husband who surely was DBC with or without evidence to support your claim”.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

I would call this a serious response, for example:

http://adventurebooks.newsvine.com/_news/2011/01/30/5955262-the-25-best-reasons-we-think-kenny-christiansen-was-skyjacker-db-cooper

I would call it "horse pucky" and parasitic.
You keep repeating this same scripted nonsense
as if it was some kind of phD thesis!

I pity these folks you are going to be giving
speeches to. That's a fact.

Nice name-calling on the 25 points I made in the article listing the evidence pointing toward Christiansen.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo said:

Quote

Tell me something - the FBI doesn't give out information - so how did Sluggo get this map?

Jo,

Let’s get some things straight:

I have never altered or distorted ANY map published on my web site or posted on this thread. Never… EVER…

If you can’t read a sectional chart, that’s your problem not mine.

I did mean you altered the map but, there was a discussion in the thread where the PDX VOR and a bunch of stuff changed - Robert99 understood what I was talking about. The dates all of this changed and what the person who did the map intended.

I couldn't make diddly squat out of the map when you guys put it on the thread - in parts if I remember correctly. If anyone has this map on a CD - I can find some place who can print it. I will appreciate it.

I also need the dates on some kind of change of locations - where you guys talked about what was meant to be this - etc. It was all way over my head.

I was unable to follow the posts at all. I want to understand what you were talking about - but, I have to have a map and a pilot who understands it to explain it to me and overlay it with regular map I can read - like some of the maps you acquired for me. This area is covered up with pilots who can help explain it to me.

Geeze every cotton-picking paragraph started with I. Have tried not to do that - but, I am personally vested in this - because it was my husband who told me things and who claimed he was Cooooper. That puts me on different emotional level than you guys.

Please try to understand my personal connection and how and why this takes away the objectivity you guys have. It is impossible for me to erase my memories and not be emotional.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Blevins tell Georger

Quote

Not by you. And not now. And you are the one giving it a name. You say these things but you have no answers. Do you really believe you can simply wave your magic 'horse pucky' wand and make all the evidence about KC just vanish? Because you say so? Now that is funny.

Wave your own magic Wand and make all of your points become evidence. You can't.

1. Kenny Christiansen had hazel eyes and Cooper had dark brown eyes.

2. Kenny was balding and NOT one witness referred to Cooper as balding.

3. All of your witness could have come forward yrs and yrs ago and would have had they actually believed K C was Cooper.

4. It was not memories dancing in the minds of those you interviewed (your witnesses) but $$$$$ signs.

5. Kenny was an employee of N.W. and a current or former employee would have been too identifiable.

6. Your story keeps getting enhance - now you are explaining away the formica - with WHAT proof.

7. Coin collections grow and easy to acquire in small increments. Duane had a coin collection - so what! I have one coin worth several thousands of dollar (you didn't know this did you)? There are other coins, but I never had them appraised - just this one.

8. All of those mistakes you made about the Comic book - did you even credit the DZ about this?

9. Film rights - I believe it is option rights to develope a screen play. Film rights are usually only offered on a screen play and not a book.

10. If you can get 300K up front take it and run - because that is all you will get. I also had offers - but, I wanted more proof. I didn't want to do that without - the FBI coming forth with some hard evidence he was or wasn't Cooper - they never did either.

11. The FBI says Blevins has been out of the running for a long time - based on some of the above.

12. You have NEVER spoke with the agent of record...just desk agents (they hate it when I call them Mouthpieces).

13. Kenny wore a wig! Not one witness thought Cooper wore a wig.

14. Kenny did NOT have a ruddy complexion or latin complexion.

15. Kenny never confessed to being Cooper.

16. Kenny lived in the N.W. Did anyone ever comment about how Kenny hid in Plane site?

16. There was never any comments about Kenny having any bruises or cuts or injuries right after the crime.

17. If that group was so close and could remember all the details - would they not remember something like that.

18. Kenny was actually a sweet guy and he thought of the women in his life as sisters and good friends...he would never have denied them anything they requested.

19. Geestman will boomerang on you - he already has.

20. You never had to put up with Jerry hasseling you - because there was nothing to cover-up.

21. You never interviewed the witnesses (crew members) the individuals who count. You took someone elses word about what the co-pilot said.

22. You have taken Porteous's word for too much. He just wanted a writer to do his book when Geoffry refused.

24. Why did Geoffry walk on writing the book? What does he know you don't know?

25. Kenny had NO real motive to hijack the plane...what he made was NOT a bad salary in the day.

Just Saying!


Just one of Jo's moments. No one will believe a thing I say about Weber, so why would they even consider any of my 25 NAAHHH points. Oh horse puckey what a waste of time.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Farflung 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InRDF_0lfHk&feature=related


I read and brand new tale and don’t know what to do….

No logic anymore I want a blinded view……

I see the evidence and still my resolve grows…..

Just change some data points and find out where it goes……


Yes sir we are approaching the anniversary of the ‘Shady Acres’ teenage girl, line of sight radio intercept of the ground communications of Flight 305 and SeaTac. I sure learned a great deal from that tale and even more about human nature and how some will dismiss item after item in a drive to ignore common sense and physics to add to the myth and lore of this crime. I suppose some review may be in order.

It was said that a girl was riding home on the school bus and heard reports about the skyjacking. Begin an aneurism inducing suspension of disbelief state of mind now.

She lives at the Shady Acres airport with her family and runs into her father’s hangar and turns on the radio and listens to the communications of Flight 305, Tower, Ground and Center. Don’t even think about this part.

Then she monitors the action as it plays out through dinner. The fact that she said this event lasted through dinner was all one person needed to claim that her story had a ring of truth and some more information should be obtained from her. Yeah, I know.

Let’s see what a QWERTY keyboard and internet access can accomplish in five minutes versus someone with a pre plotted curve. Spoiler: The answer is nothing; you can’t win when someone already has the answer they want.

First is the favorite subject of this thread geography and distance. Shady acres is between 2 inches and a million miles from SeaTac. I should ask and ask and ask until someone gives me the answer I like or:

http://www.airport-data.com/airport/3B8/

At the bottom of this web page is ‘Radio Navigation Aids’ with the SEA/Seattle VORTAC listed as roughly 22.1 nautical miles from Shady Acres. This makes me happy because it has not interfered with my pre plotted curve.

Now what could the internet possibly offer that would help me next?

http://www.qsl.net/kd4sai/distance.html

This looks very technical and was created by a radio amateur which are frequently called HAMs because they are not very healthy and originate on a pigs rump, but that’s enough about these friendless eunuchs. Let’s look at the data needed.

Total height of antenna (first station) in feet for Flight 305.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/jetliner/b727/

According to this site the total height of a 727 is 34 feet. I will use that number as it will result in the greatest distance theoretically possible.

The next input is for the second station (Shady Acres) antenna height in feet. This is more difficult since this is a private airport with around 35 homes. Considering this is near an airport the FAA would not be too happy if a tower was erected near a runway so how about an assumption that the antenna is 50 feet or 2.5 times the height of the average single story roof line?

Oh no, when I click on the calculate button the answer is 18 miles and that is not big enough to hear SeaTac. This does not give me a boner and must be incorrect. I think the antenna was probably 75 feet tall because I really, really, really want it to be.

Oh nooooooooo, it still only goes to 20 miles. Wait, someone said that they saw a wicked tall antenna once and it was a ‘known fact’ that it was way high up there like 100 feet.

Yesssssssss. In your face. Now it is 22 miles and though the FAA says 22.1, with shrinkage and conspiracies this should come out to 22 miles which matches my desires and is now true.

Lemme skool you some more on this great LOS calculator. You can also get the answer in Km which is a system used by microphallus’ and cross check that it is 22.4 miles proving that the station is more than close enough.

But the original distance was in some system called ‘Nautical Miles’ and there may be a difference here.

http://www.boatsafe.com/tools/scale.htm

Thank you, Polly Prissy Keyboard for making me do a 2 minute search for the answer I honestly seek because I’m so strong and smart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JchKa8Ox3Hs

Now when I put in 22.1 Nautical Miles we find that equals 25.4 miles and umm …… ????? .... ???? ... but …. nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

As a form of preemptive analysis since the FAA mystery chart raised its ugly head again, I thought I would use this as an analogy of how far people on this thread are willing to go in order to ignore the most basic of calculations and sanity checks and avoid going down another rat hole.

But one person still wanted to go to Shady Acres and do an ‘experiment’, isn’t that right georger?

[airtwardo 7]

This is not the same as some ‘Lord of the Flies’ environment with some Byzantine hierarchy which involves the sacrifice of virgins with multiple mantras being chanted from various camps.

No...that would be a dropzone at sunset. Just sayin'.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[sailshaw 0]

Robert99
What makes you think that I believe the Cooper 727 flew to the East of Portland?
You stated: Perhaps Sailshaw, the pilot, will get out his flight calculator and do some serious number crunching. If he does, then he might change his own mind about an eastern route around Portland.

I have stated in these threads that I buy into the Sluggo Air Chart with the times at several arrow marks. That chart shows the flight path to the West of PDX Portland airport. NOT TO THE EAST. Jo, for some reason favors the East story. Janet's story agrees with the West flight path.
Can't we all agree with the Sluggo Air Chart?
Bob

[sailshaw 0]

Jo:
You stated: "Manufactured Stories? YOUR story is manufactured. You knew Sheridan Peterson for 1 month and the man is still alive to defend himself (I hope) since the other poster seemed to be a Sheridan imposter. "

I do not have to manufacture a story to prove that Duane was DB as you continue to do. What makes you think Sheridan is not DB? What are your facts that make you think otherwise?

The only thing so far to dispute Sheridan as DB was his alibi that he was in Nepal at the time of the DB caper. Otherwise he fits the facts known about DB. From Nepal he was only one or two days away from the scene of the crime.

The Sheridan imposter (Bulldog) seems to be by way of Snowman. Could Snowman be messing with our thoughts?
Bob

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Robert99
What makes you think that I believe the Cooper 727 flew to the East of Portland?
You stated: Perhaps Sailshaw, the pilot, will get out his flight calculator and do some serious number crunching. If he does, then he might change his own mind about an eastern route around Portland.

I have stated in these threads that I buy into the Sluggo Air Chart with the times at several arrow marks. That chart shows the flight path to the West of PDX Portland airport. NOT TO THE EAST. Jo, for some reason favors the East story. Janet's story agrees with the West flight path.
Can't we all agree with the Sluggo Air Chart?
Bob

Sailshaw, Something is definitely getting lost in the translation here.

I have NEVER supported a flight path east of Portland. And for that matter, I also don't believe the flight path shown on the FBI charts between approximately the present day Malay intersection (near Toledo) and a point about 23 nautical miles south of the present day Battleground VORTAC is correct either.

Since you don't want to reveal your experience as a pilot, I will assume that you are a certificated private pilot with an ASEL rating. If you in fact have that rating, then presumably you had to demonstrate some knowledge of a pilot's computer (Jeppesen or A6B).

You presumably know how to calculate true air speed, work wind triangles, determine wind components, determine heading corrections to make good a given ground track, and to determine ground speed among other things.

Don't try to blame those charts on Sluggo. They are FBI work products and they should get the "credit" for them. You say that you buy into the time marks on those charts. Why don't you measure the distance between those time marks?

If taken literally, the distance between some of those marks means that the airliner flew three nautical miles in one minute and then six nautical miles the next minute. To put it another way, the airliner's ground speed increased from 180 knots one minute to 360 knots during the next minute. Since the airliner was in steady cruising flight, that is not a realistic situation.

Also, one minute appears to be missing in that time sequence. Is it really? If so, where did it go?

You can calculate the true airspeed of the airliner from information in the radio transcripts. Why don't you do so and then determine the ground speed and wind direction and see how they all fit together.

Do you really understand what you are looking at, and what it means, when you read something on a clock or a cockpit instrument? Can an aircraft be two places at once?

It's time for you to get your pilot's calculator out and start work.

Robert Nicholson

[Farflung 0]

Just for reference when considering that Flight 305 had some sort of clearance to fly where ever they ‘wanted’. This video equally chills my blood and ended with me making an appointment with a seat upholsterer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BvgSS6kBdU&feature=related

On instruments they have much more in common with Helen Keller than an eagle. It is difficult to accept that some deviation from centerline was casually selected without clearance. Not for the sake of some power trip but self preservation just like US Air 2998 holding short while the tower got ‘it’ together.

2998 was all but chided to take off and he stood his ground for safety of flight. Yes, I am glad there is a portion of the population that can think independently and go against the grain and make a good decision with very little data. You’re a good man, ‘Mr. 2998 talking on the radio all cool and hunky averting a disaster’ guy.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Just for reference when considering that Flight 305 had some sort of clearance to fly where ever they ‘wanted’. This video equally chills my blood and ended with me making an appointment with a seat upholsterer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BvgSS6kBdU&feature=related

On instruments they have much more in common with Helen Keller than an eagle. It is difficult to accept that some deviation from centerline was casually selected without clearance. Not for the sake of some power trip but self preservation just like US Air 2998 holding short while the tower got ‘it’ together.

2998 was all but chided to take off and he stood his ground for safety of flight. Yes, I am glad there is a portion of the population that can think independently and go against the grain and make a good decision with very little data. You’re a good man, ‘Mr. 2998 talking on the radio all cool and hunky averting a disaster’ guy.

Farflung, You are absolutely correct!

While the airliner was told prior to take-off in Seattle to "do whatever you need to do and we will keep people out of your way", the air traffic control tapes for the Seattle Center's sector controllers have an absolute minimum of information.

The airliner was cleared for take-off on the ground control frequency and told to go straight to a frequency that bypassed both the tower and departure controllers. The sector controller had some difficulty figuring out where the airliner was but once that was cleared up there was (if you believe the transcripts) little further communication between the airliner and the Seattle Center's sector controllers all the way down to the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California.

Again if you believe the transcripts, basically the only information passed between the airliner and the controllers was altimeter settings and instructions to switch to another sector controller.

There is even an 18 minute no transmissions whatsoever gap as the airliner passed through the Portland area (from 8:15PM to 8:33PM).

Essentially, everything that would help establish the airliner's position between about the present day Malay intersection (near Toledo) and the Fort Jones VORTAC has been removed from the Seattle Center's transcripts.

If you don't believe this, take a look at the Oakland Center's transcripts which includes the hand off from Seattle Center near the Fort Jones VORTAC until the landing in Reno. The Oakland transcripts are real life as it was lived in 1971 and includes the phone conversations between controllers. The Seattle transcripts are not the way it was done in that day and age.

The Seattle Center's Chief gave a sworn statement, dated the day after the hijacking, that he was including the complete transcripts in his transmittal to the FBI and nobody had any reason to hide anything at that date.

Consequently, it seems obvious that the Seattle transcripts were "sanitized" at a later date and you know who had them at that time.

You can read these transcripts for yourself on Sluggo's web page.

Robert Nicholson

[Farflung 0]

Robert99,

I’ve read the transcripts posted on Sluggo Monster’s site and got a sense of things being rushed and the reviews being extremely porous to the point of me questioning if anyone involved had any flight experience at all. Wrong dates, horrible translations like radio for radial, traffic not effective instead of traffic not a factor and Hughes 629 as use 629. I don’t blame the typist for so many misinterpretations but the FAA or whatever official that ‘reviewed’ those transcripts as ‘true and complete’ above his vaunted signature, should have been canned. What purpose was that ‘review’?

There is also a big difference between typing ‘15’, ‘fifteen’ or ‘one fife’ as those styles varied with the different agencies. At least there would have been a clue as to referencing frequencies, distance, flight numbers, etc.

In the absence of information I tend to take the position of that US Air 2998 pilot ( I bravely compare myself to a real hero) and wait things out. On this thread all announcements of shattering information have manifested with all the furor of a mouse fart. But in this spirit of this thread, I will admit it was sometimes a very large mouse.

Make some graphics, reference sources and connect the non-emotive dots that should guide everyone to the same independent conclusion. Avoid all possible calls for experience unless you want to see this thread devolve further into endless rounds of scent marking (I was in special forces for XX years), resume postings (I have dimples on my butt) and overall puffing which numerous participants have left thousands of such examples of their parlance in past comments.

What is the Co-pilot going to say that will over ride your existing solution? Is Captain Scott or Anderson’s answers worth anything? Given time and airspeed what is a ‘reasonable’ variance from the centerline of V-23 and the last referenced reporting points excluding FBI intrigue and Roswell Aliens? My silly little checks produced low wind velocities (30 knots or less) with the aircrafts position being within the plus or minus 2 mins and 4 miles centerline. I’m certainly open to read about information that does not require me to simply take one person’s word. That was already tried in Germany.

Obviously I don’t believe in gubberment conspiracies since today’s news features ‘Ant Weiners photographs sent to woman’. Am I supposed to consider some clueless congressman, who is so weird and freaky, that his fetish involves texting images of insect genitalia to citizens?

[georger 244]

Quote

Robert99,

I’ve read the transcripts posted on Sluggo Monster’s site and got a sense of things being rushed and the reviews being extremely porous to the point of me questioning if anyone involved had any flight experience at all. Wrong dates, horrible translations like radio for radial, traffic not effective instead of traffic not a factor and Hughes 629 as use 629. I don’t blame the typist for so many misinterpretations but the FAA or whatever official that ‘reviewed’ those transcripts as ‘true and complete’ above his vaunted signature, should have been canned. What purpose was that ‘review’?

Funny. I got the same sense. And when faced with
such dilemmae I usually resort to the 'pound sand
down a rathole and clarify' technique - example.

When faced with six months of deliberation and
personal atacks over installing a 110vac outlet -
among Rockwell and Boeing retiree engineers ...

I finally resort to basic psychiatry principles and try
to clarify and condense:

"Can we all agree its a 110vac outlet"? Stunned
audience mutters "yea...". "Can we agree it has to
go somewhere near the telescope?" .... "uhhh
yea..." "Can we agree the telescope is in that
building over there?" ....... uhhhhhhhh yea?
"Can we agree the IAEOUMQB Standard for outlets
says this side goes UP?" .... I hold the damned
outlet up and show them. They agree! "Well folks,
Im going overe to that building and take this outlet
and mount it in the recepticle box on the pier to
that telescope, and you guys can go on discussing
this for another three years or whatever.... OK?"
One Boeing domo replies: "Well dont use a hammer
drill!". I reply: "the thought had not crossed my
mind, or Linn County's mind either". And I disappear
quickly into the same fog that shrouded Cooper
to "get the job done". I hear the Boeing domo
mutter convincingly, "I sure like that bio guy. He
gets things done." (Bio guy?)

Thanks for the clarifications...