377 22
Recommended Posts
Farflung 0
This may appear a bit ‘circular’ but it can be verified with the supplied attribution.
Reference - Page 707, ‘Interview with Robert Blevins, a report’.
“As for the book’s statement that Captain Scott left the cockpit and sat next to Cooper to ascertain the reality of the bomb, Robert said that he got that from Porteous, who got it from Bill Rataczak in a taped phone conversation.”
Well the source of Captain Scott chatting with Cooper is revealed after it was asked at least three times. I can see why the deflection or ignoring the query since Rataczak is quoted so extensively for other things which are needed for story construction. Here is a clear example of data mining with horrendous interview techniques and research protocol ultimately resulting in another pure piece of fiction.
Here is the nefarious script which became an insta-orphan without a source or attribution:
“Scott left the cockpit himself and headed to the rear of the plane to speak with Cooper. Several passengers turned their heads as he walked past. Scott pretended he was going to speak to a friend, so as not to alarm everyone. Taking a seat next to Cooper, he said quietly, “What’s this about a bomb?”
Cooper let Scott glance into the briefcase for a split second. Scott got enough of a look to doubt the bomb was real, but he’d already been instructed to cooperate with the hijacker.”
This could have happened since the ATC transcripts cryptically said:
“No one from the cockpit ever left it until they reached Reno.”
But what could that mean?
Reference – Page 857 (150 pages later), ‘A Ticket, Tie Tack and Some Money (Tick Tack Dough)
“Skipp Porteous caught Rataczak as he was going out the door for a trip to Mexico, but Bill spoke to him. Bill says neither he, Scotty, or H.E. Anderson went to the back of the cabin.”
There you have it, Rataczak was interviewed with his real name and LIVE with a digital recorder and said that Captain Scott talked to Cooper before confirming that none of the cockpit crew went to the back of the cabin. Those LIVE witnesses are really producing the dividends when coupled with taped conversations and unbiased interview techniques.
Reference - Page 707, ‘Interview with Robert Blevins, a report’.
“As for the book’s statement that Captain Scott left the cockpit and sat next to Cooper to ascertain the reality of the bomb, Robert said that he got that from Porteous, who got it from Bill Rataczak in a taped phone conversation.”
Well the source of Captain Scott chatting with Cooper is revealed after it was asked at least three times. I can see why the deflection or ignoring the query since Rataczak is quoted so extensively for other things which are needed for story construction. Here is a clear example of data mining with horrendous interview techniques and research protocol ultimately resulting in another pure piece of fiction.
Here is the nefarious script which became an insta-orphan without a source or attribution:
“Scott left the cockpit himself and headed to the rear of the plane to speak with Cooper. Several passengers turned their heads as he walked past. Scott pretended he was going to speak to a friend, so as not to alarm everyone. Taking a seat next to Cooper, he said quietly, “What’s this about a bomb?”
Cooper let Scott glance into the briefcase for a split second. Scott got enough of a look to doubt the bomb was real, but he’d already been instructed to cooperate with the hijacker.”
This could have happened since the ATC transcripts cryptically said:
“No one from the cockpit ever left it until they reached Reno.”
But what could that mean?
Reference – Page 857 (150 pages later), ‘A Ticket, Tie Tack and Some Money (Tick Tack Dough)
“Skipp Porteous caught Rataczak as he was going out the door for a trip to Mexico, but Bill spoke to him. Bill says neither he, Scotty, or H.E. Anderson went to the back of the cabin.”
There you have it, Rataczak was interviewed with his real name and LIVE with a digital recorder and said that Captain Scott talked to Cooper before confirming that none of the cockpit crew went to the back of the cabin. Those LIVE witnesses are really producing the dividends when coupled with taped conversations and unbiased interview techniques.
Robert99 50
QuoteQuoteQuote3. The FBI's test is flawed because the conditions that night were not duplicated. The weather was stormy the night of the jump and with the configuration of the 727 (flaps and gear down) the turbulence caused by the wind would have been magnified. Also, they stood at the top of the stairs and pushed the 200 pound sled down, making it nearly impossible to determine the exact position of the sled when the curtsy was felt. Also, based on our experts, the curtsy would have been felt when the stairs attempted to enter the airstream and was pushed back by the airstream itself. It could not have been caused by the 200 pound sled leaving the staircase.
Don't forget what I posted about jumping the DC 9 out of the ventral door. Each exiting jumper created a very noticeable pressure bump. You could hear it and feel it even in the front of the plane. It was a "thunk" sound. Some have postulated that it was a reflected pressure wave from the jumper hitting the slipstream. I am not an aero engineer so i dont have a tight explanation, but I guarantee you I could have accurately counted every jumper who exited before me even if I had been blindfolded.
377
377, Thanks for the information. If I remember correctly, the aft stairs from the DC-9 had been completely removed from the aircraft for your jump.
Right off, I don't have an idea as to exactly how the exiting jumper could have caused a pressure bump such as you describe. But I still feel that the pressure bump in the hijacked 727 was caused by the aft stairs events described by the flight crew as well as the sled drops in the FBI tests.
377, Let me reply to this message again since you have a more detailed description of your DC-9 jump here.
First, I'm not sure what you mean by "reflected pressure wave". But here is my suggestion of the aerodynamic oddity that you describe above. And please note that I have spent at least 10 minutes researching the above matter.
In my opinion, this effect is something akin to the making and breaking of the Coanda effect at the rear of the DC-9 fuselage. Except in this instance the Coanda effect is first broken and then re-established.
As the air passes around the fuselage of the DC-9, starting at the nose, it first has to move outward laterally to get around the increasing diameter of the fuselage. The force necessary to push the air aside comes from the engines, and their energy generation comes from the fuel.
Then as the air gets to the rear of the fuselage, the air has to move inward laterally due to the decreasing diameter of the fuselage (nature abhors a vacuum!). This inward movement is, or at least is analogous to, the Coanda effect. It is induced by the shape of the rear fuselage.
The end result of the above is that, in addition to the normal fuselage boundary layer, there is an area of relatively "dead" air at the aft end of the fuselage, and then we have the free stream airflow rejoining just aft (or downstream) of that. Think of this dead air as being something like you find behind a blunt body such as an automobile.
So here is my suggestion as to what you were hearing and feeling on that DC-9. As a jumper went through the bottom of the aft fuselage (with the aft stairs no longer there), within a few feet he/she would hit the free stream air and break the Coanda effect. In a few more feet, he/she would be clear of the flow field affecting the aircraft and the Coanda effect would then re-establish the original flow field.
The "thunk" would be the Coanda effect re-establishing itself and resulting in the airflow hitting the rear fuselage or tail cone in a rather violent manner before settling down. And it so happened that you were able to hear that initial impact as the airflow was trying to re-establish itself.
The pressure bump would probably be caused by the initial breakup of the Coanda effect as the jumper moved through it.
So if my guesses are correct, in real time the pressure bump would occur first and then the "thunk".
If you were in the rear of the aircraft, you might hear the "thunk" before feeling the bump. [NOTE: Actually, I got that reversed, you might feel the bump before hearing the "thunk".] If you were more forward in the fuselage, you might feel and hear them at the same time or even in reverse order. It depends on how fast the pressure is increased throughout the fuselage and the speed of sound of the "thunk".
Does any of the above make sense to you?
Orange1 0
You can't quote books to tell us what people think.
We know books get it wrong, whether deliberately or accidentally (such as the apparent confusion over the silver particles in Gray's book).
If YOU got it straight from TOM that would be different.
We know books get it wrong, whether deliberately or accidentally (such as the apparent confusion over the silver particles in Gray's book).
If YOU got it straight from TOM that would be different.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
377 22
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote3. The FBI's test is flawed because the conditions that night were not duplicated. The weather was stormy the night of the jump and with the configuration of the 727 (flaps and gear down) the turbulence caused by the wind would have been magnified. Also, they stood at the top of the stairs and pushed the 200 pound sled down, making it nearly impossible to determine the exact position of the sled when the curtsy was felt. Also, based on our experts, the curtsy would have been felt when the stairs attempted to enter the airstream and was pushed back by the airstream itself. It could not have been caused by the 200 pound sled leaving the staircase.
Don't forget what I posted about jumping the DC 9 out of the ventral door. Each exiting jumper created a very noticeable pressure bump. You could hear it and feel it even in the front of the plane. It was a "thunk" sound. Some have postulated that it was a reflected pressure wave from the jumper hitting the slipstream. I am not an aero engineer so i dont have a tight explanation, but I guarantee you I could have accurately counted every jumper who exited before me even if I had been blindfolded.
377
377, Thanks for the information. If I remember correctly, the aft stairs from the DC-9 had been completely removed from the aircraft for your jump.
Right off, I don't have an idea as to exactly how the exiting jumper could have caused a pressure bump such as you describe. But I still feel that the pressure bump in the hijacked 727 was caused by the aft stairs events described by the flight crew as well as the sled drops in the FBI tests.
377, Let me reply to this message again since you have a more detailed description of your DC-9 jump here.
First, I'm not sure what you mean by "reflected pressure wave". But here is my suggestion of the aerodynamic oddity that you describe above. And please note that I have spent at least 10 minutes researching the above matter.
In my opinion, this effect is something akin to the making and breaking of the Coanda effect at the rear of the DC-9 fuselage. Except in this instance the Coanda effect is first broken and then re-established.
As the air passes around the fuselage of the DC-9, starting at the nose, it first has to move outward laterally to get around the increasing diameter of the fuselage. The force necessary to push the air aside comes from the engines, and their energy generation comes from the fuel.
Then as the air gets to the rear of the fuselage, the air has to move inward laterally due to the decreasing diameter of the fuselage (nature abhors a vacuum!). This inward movement is, or at least is analogous to, the Coanda effect. It is induced by the shape of the rear fuselage.
The end result of the above is that, in addition to the normal fuselage boundary layer, there is an area of relatively "dead" air at the aft end of the fuselage, and then we have the free stream airflow rejoining just aft (or downstream) of that. Think of this dead air as being something like you find behind a blunt body such as an automobile.
So here is my suggestion as to what you were hearing and feeling on that DC-9. As a jumper went through the bottom of the aft fuselage (with the aft stairs no longer there), within a few feet he/she would hit the free stream air and break the Coanda effect. In a few more feet, he/she would be clear of the flow field affecting the aircraft and the Coanda effect would then re-establish the original flow field.
The "thunk" would be the Coanda effect re-establishing itself and resulting in the airflow hitting the rear fuselage or tail cone in a rather violent manner before settling down. And it so happened that you were able to hear that initial impact as the airflow was trying to re-establish itself.
The pressure bump would probably be caused by the initial breakup of the Coanda effect as the jumper moved through it.
So if my guesses are correct, in real time the pressure bump would occur first and then the "thunk".
If you were in the rear of the aircraft, you might hear the "thunk" before feeling the bump. If you were more forward in the fuselage, you might feel and hear them at the same time or even in reverse order. It depends on how fast the pressure is increased throughout the fuselage and the speed of sound of the "thunk".
Does any of the above make sense to you?
Robert 99,
I am an EE not an Aero E so I'll defer to your analysis. The only knowledge I have of the Coanda effect is a dim memeory of some weird old experimental planes that used a rotating cylinder to provide lift.
I do remember a kind of two part pressure event for each jumper exit, a "whoosh" and a "thunk". It was VERY noticable, not subtle at all. I wish I had glanced at my altimeter to see if the needle bumped. I'll bet it did but can't say for sure.
There is some relatively dead air right outside of the ventral door. You didnt feel the full exit blast until you were a few feet away from the plane.
It's funny. The jet jump wasn't particularly difficult at all other than landing off DZ due to the high speed and strung out one by one exits. They even took tandem jumpers out of the DC 9. Still, my jet jump impresses whuffos a lot more more than really tough jumps. It has to be the DB Cooper factor.
Occam says the NWA 727 pressure bump was Coopers exit, but Occam isnt always right.
I do think given enough time, this case will be solved. Something will be found, someone will remember a lead, something will break the logjam.
Tom Kaye has been silent for so long. I wish he'd post here and tell us his current thoughts.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 244
QuoteQuoteYou can't quote books to tell us what people think.
We know books get it wrong, whether deliberately or accidentally (such as the apparent confusion over the silver particles in Gray's book).
If YOU got it straight from TOM that would be different.
Gray did an interview with Tom Kaye, and spent quite a bit of time with him. You want to call him a liar, to say he misquoted Kaye? You tell him yourself. Otherwise I will accept that the interview is accurate and Kaye is fairly quoted. You should go to the source and ask Tom Kaye if that quote from the book is accurate. I have his email address and will give it to you in a PM if you wish.
So follow your own advice. Dont give advice. You
are the one making the statements. Orange didnt
bring this up - you did, you pompous ass.
If you are going to cite people's work as gospel,
you need to discover the veracity of it.
If you are going to [pick and grab] off a shelf,
thing you think you need, its up to you to know
what you are selecting. Its nobody's elses business.
georger 244
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou can't quote books to tell us what people think.
We know books get it wrong, whether deliberately or accidentally (such as the apparent confusion over the silver particles in Gray's book).
If YOU got it straight from TOM that would be different.
Gray did an interview with Tom Kaye, and spent quite a bit of time with him. You want to call him a liar, to say he misquoted Kaye? You tell him yourself. Otherwise I will accept that the interview is accurate and Kaye is fairly quoted. You should go to the source and ask Tom Kaye if that quote from the book is accurate. I have his email address and will give it to you in a PM if you wish.
So follow your own advice. Dont give advice. You
are the one making the statements. Orange didnt bring this up - you did, you pompous ass.
Knock off the name-calling. As a matter of fact, I just pulled up Kaye's dot com email and sent him the quote from the book. I suggested he come to DZ and confirm whether it is accurate or not.
I'm not pompous, only a little defensive sometimes. My email address and phone are open info via the Media page at our website. You can imagine the calls and emails I get every week. Some are okay, others are not so nice. After a while, you get sort of a thick skin about it. There are a lot of crazy people out there, especially regarding the Cooper case.
Fortunately I dont have to get into this. Its between you and Tom and Gray.
georger 244
If Kaye really said that stuff, then I consider that little part of the book to be a key element. .
You would!
Have a nice dream.
You would!
Have a nice dream.
Robert99 50
Blevins writes:
The ransom money didn't float down from anywhere, it was probably planted by human hands.
R99 replies:
Blevins, A better and more believable scientific case can be made for the tooth fairey than that the money "was probably planted by human hands".
The ransom money didn't float down from anywhere, it was probably planted by human hands.
R99 replies:
Blevins, A better and more believable scientific case can be made for the tooth fairey than that the money "was probably planted by human hands".
Farflung 0
Why is every theory so complex and littered with serial leaps of logic (hint: data mining)? The bills appeared to remain bundled thus meaning Cooper survived. I like this theory so I will use it exclusively because it is from an expert. The Amboy chute ID is worthless because the owner said silk and it is known to be nylon. So that expert is impeached thus proving Cooper survived. I really didn’t see that one coming down the pike.
I’m taking the answer with the least amount of touch points, unless there is a chance that another theory would put me in direct contact with a surface of the sun, scorching hot nun. At least I’m pure in ethos if not thought.
Cooper cannonballs into the Columbia and sinks to the bottom of that 40 degree Fahrenheit water and is snagged. This anaerobic environment preserves ‘stuff’ till a dredge heaves some artifacts on a beach which also happens to be a long time deposit site for dredge operations (!).
Now there is a reason for the money to be in bundles, Cooper to remain unknown and this planting money on a private beach that happens to be a termination point for dredging operations to join the other random acts of investigation like Captain Scott talking to Cooper accidentally.
I’m taking the answer with the least amount of touch points, unless there is a chance that another theory would put me in direct contact with a surface of the sun, scorching hot nun. At least I’m pure in ethos if not thought.
Cooper cannonballs into the Columbia and sinks to the bottom of that 40 degree Fahrenheit water and is snagged. This anaerobic environment preserves ‘stuff’ till a dredge heaves some artifacts on a beach which also happens to be a long time deposit site for dredge operations (!).
Now there is a reason for the money to be in bundles, Cooper to remain unknown and this planting money on a private beach that happens to be a termination point for dredging operations to join the other random acts of investigation like Captain Scott talking to Cooper accidentally.
Robert99 50
QuoteQuoteBlevins writes:
The ransom money didn't float down from anywhere, it was probably planted by human hands.
R99 replies:
Blevins, A better and more believable scientific case can be made for the tooth fairey than that the money "was probably planted by human hands".
Really? Tom Kaye says otherwise. Did you see his quote from Gray's book, page 255? You should be taking this up with him. Here it is again:QuoteAnalyzing the evidence, he (Tom Kaye) was able to make one conclusion. Cooper did survive the jump, he thinks. Under the microscope, Tom noticed the money had been bound for so long, the ink of serial numbers on the bills had bled into each other. When he looked at them further, he found that they lined up precisely behind each other in the stack.
Tom did not expect this. When he used his fishing rod to cast a packet of bills into the Columbia River, what happened was clear: The bills fanned out in the water, like the fins of an exotic fish. So if the Cooper bills had floated loosely in the water, when they dried and stuck together, the serial numbers would not be in perfect alignment. They would be slightly off.
Which means what exactly?
"The money did not float down the river," Tom says.
So how did it get to Tena Bar?
"Nonnatural means," he says.
Which means?
"People...If there's one story the money tells us, it's that."
I sent this quote to Tom Kaye this morning and asked him to confirm or deny on it. I'm not his favorite person, so I asked him to maybe do a DZ post on it. That little bit from the book says a lot, and Kaye goes out on a limb there. Or (I just love quoting from famous films) as Robert Duvall said in True Grit:Quote'Them's big words for a one-eyed fat man...'
Well, that's not really accurate of course. I'm sure Kaye isn't fat and has TWO eyes.
Blevins, Are you claiming that the money had to float down the river (presumably for 10 or more miles) or that the only other choice was to plant it with it with human hands? Surely, with all of your creative writing experience, you could come up with a third (and maybe fourth) possibility.
The fact that some of the money was still bundled means that it didn't move very far and had not been exposed to any particular amount of violence during that move.
Gray did an interview with Tom Kaye, and spent quite a bit of time with him. You want to call him a liar, to say he misquoted Kaye? You tell him yourself. Otherwise I will accept that the interview is accurate and Kaye is fairly quoted. You should go to the source and ask Tom Kaye if that quote from the book is accurate. I have his email address and will give it to you in a PM if you wish.
TRY the horses Mouth.
Gray got lots of things wrong.
Gray was trying to write a serious book and then realized how many different places and how many different stories are out there. The yrs and clouded memories. Researcher comes up with multiple different answers.
You feel and hear the exasperation in the last part of the book when he leaves you with Tomato cans and Black Ops and Cugie.
Gray had to settle for writing a humorous and entertaining book, because resolving the details of the crime became MIND BOGGLING...enough to make any sane person doubt their sanity.
I personally know how he portrayed characters is NOT how they are and what he tells you about them is NOT accurate. The only one I can prove is his story about Jo Weber.
Somethings his writings are entertaining and are meant to make certain characters more pictorial for his own purpose.
Taut Sheets - he didn't see my sheets.
Looked like I had been gardening - I live in FL and layer my clothes - plus I dress very neat and classy for my age. Geoffrey has spent most of his life in N.Y. - a place not know for casual wear like Fl. I guess he expected me to be in a church dress - even the churches are casual here - with many of them being outdoors.
His accounting of my first meeting with Duane Weber makes me sound like a cheap floozy out for a pick-up. So very very far from the truth. My family is appalled by his graphic portrayal of me - and after reading the book I also understood why someone in this thread referred to me as Trailor Trash. Gray made me look CHEAP and anyone who knows me knows how far that is from the truth. I wish I had not allowed the interview and have kept my communications on a written word level only. Problem with that it is hard to answer questions and even more difficult for anyone to follow what I am saying. A thought process that has cost me dearly over the yrs...I ramble and it is just how my brain is wired.
Therefore - all most all accountings taken by even reputable journalists are influenced by their own life and locations and experiences and goals. Unless it is an actual tape with an actual response without missing parts - only then is any verbal accounting 100% accurate.
Even the written word - is forgotten or engarnished by the person making the statement. 40 yrs is a lot of yrs to be consistent.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Robert 99 wrote:
Hopefully what Gray wrote was accurate above. I do NOT know where the money was kept, but it was not in the river for 8 yrs. Duane had 2 openings each consisting of more than 5 hours and in 2 different locations to have retrieved a "package".
In 1980 when the money was found - Duane stated before reading the article - "it was worthless" - perhaps he was aware of what was in the news article - maybe he had heard it on the radio. What I do know is he made the statement before reading the article - he took the paper with him that morning claiming he has some things to do.
That morning when I noted the front page of the paper before fixing breakfast "they found that man's money" and Duane asked "What money?". That did NOT indicate he had known about the find until that moment.
I read out loud the headlines and this is when Duane said this.
"I know it was Worthless". I didn't think to ask him how he knew this. The conversation that morning DOES NOT indicate Duane had prior knowledge of the find until that moment.
I never got to read that article nor any subsequent articles and was awaiting a special that was supposed to be on TV - like an Unsolve Mystery thing. Duane MADE SURE I DO NOT GET TO SEE THIS TV PROGRAM AND ARRANGES FOR US TO GO OUT ON A WEEK DAY NIGHT WITH A COUPLE I HAD NEVER MET.
Duane resigned his job and was gone from the area relatively quickly. He head to Mobile, AL.
When he comes back for my Daughters graduation he is questioning her about her coach and his wife - I never understood that one. Probably because his last name was Larson and Duane had to be careful. Duane had over 2 months in Mobile, AL to study up on the case and to decide if it was safe to go back to CO.
You see our live seemed to evolve around his always watching his back and I did not understand this. Duane kept these secrets for 17 yrs. The only thing I knew about was Jefferson - although he hinted at other things, but saw I was NOT ready to accept anymore than his explanation of trying to obtain a drivers license under a fake name in 1990.
I believe the money was hidden in Oregon below The Dalles and at something he helped to build or it was hidden at a house or under a house near the Biggs and Rufus area...it had to be something he knew was NOT going anywhere. Shit happens and moisture got to the money and the books. It had to be someplace he could drive to and be back at the hotel before check out time. 5 -1/2 hours.
Then in Seattle a few days later on our last day there - he again disappears for a complete after noon. This time 12;30 to 6 (5 1/2 hours) He comes in to the room all giddy and I accuse him of drinking - he had NOT been drinking but he was sure happy.
The next morning is when we made all of those stops in Vancouver and after we crossed the river and we reached a point on the road past the airport and beyond the point we could see Washougal across the river did he turn around and announce we were going to Tahoe. I asked how we could afford it...he states the company gave him a cash bonus.
The entire time we spent in Tahoe was weird - weird, but I had never been in a casino - I would only learn yrs later what he was doing there was NOT normal.
Quote
Really? Tom Kaye says otherwise. Did you see his quote from Gray's book, page 255? You should be taking this up with him. Here it is again:QuoteAnalyzing the evidence, he (Tom Kaye) was able to make one conclusion. Cooper did survive the jump, he thinks. Under the microscope, Tom noticed the money had been bound for so long, the ink of serial numbers on the bills had bled into each other. When he looked at them further, he found that they lined up precisely behind each other in the stack.
Tom did not expect this. When he used his fishing rod to cast a packet of bills into the Columbia River, what happened was clear: The bills fanned out in the water, like the fins of an exotic fish. So if the Cooper bills had floated loosely in the water, when they dried and stuck together, the serial numbers would not be in perfect alignment. They would be slightly off.
Which means what exactly?
"The money did not float down the river," Tom says.
So how did it get to Tena Bar?
"Nonnatural means," he says.
Which means?
"People...If there's one story the money tells us, it's that."
Hopefully what Gray wrote was accurate above. I do NOT know where the money was kept, but it was not in the river for 8 yrs. Duane had 2 openings each consisting of more than 5 hours and in 2 different locations to have retrieved a "package".
In 1980 when the money was found - Duane stated before reading the article - "it was worthless" - perhaps he was aware of what was in the news article - maybe he had heard it on the radio. What I do know is he made the statement before reading the article - he took the paper with him that morning claiming he has some things to do.
That morning when I noted the front page of the paper before fixing breakfast "they found that man's money" and Duane asked "What money?". That did NOT indicate he had known about the find until that moment.
I read out loud the headlines and this is when Duane said this.
"I know it was Worthless". I didn't think to ask him how he knew this. The conversation that morning DOES NOT indicate Duane had prior knowledge of the find until that moment.
I never got to read that article nor any subsequent articles and was awaiting a special that was supposed to be on TV - like an Unsolve Mystery thing. Duane MADE SURE I DO NOT GET TO SEE THIS TV PROGRAM AND ARRANGES FOR US TO GO OUT ON A WEEK DAY NIGHT WITH A COUPLE I HAD NEVER MET.
Duane resigned his job and was gone from the area relatively quickly. He head to Mobile, AL.
When he comes back for my Daughters graduation he is questioning her about her coach and his wife - I never understood that one. Probably because his last name was Larson and Duane had to be careful. Duane had over 2 months in Mobile, AL to study up on the case and to decide if it was safe to go back to CO.
You see our live seemed to evolve around his always watching his back and I did not understand this. Duane kept these secrets for 17 yrs. The only thing I knew about was Jefferson - although he hinted at other things, but saw I was NOT ready to accept anymore than his explanation of trying to obtain a drivers license under a fake name in 1990.
I believe the money was hidden in Oregon below The Dalles and at something he helped to build or it was hidden at a house or under a house near the Biggs and Rufus area...it had to be something he knew was NOT going anywhere. Shit happens and moisture got to the money and the books. It had to be someplace he could drive to and be back at the hotel before check out time. 5 -1/2 hours.
Then in Seattle a few days later on our last day there - he again disappears for a complete after noon. This time 12;30 to 6 (5 1/2 hours) He comes in to the room all giddy and I accuse him of drinking - he had NOT been drinking but he was sure happy.
The next morning is when we made all of those stops in Vancouver and after we crossed the river and we reached a point on the road past the airport and beyond the point we could see Washougal across the river did he turn around and announce we were going to Tahoe. I asked how we could afford it...he states the company gave him a cash bonus.
The entire time we spent in Tahoe was weird - weird, but I had never been in a casino - I would only learn yrs later what he was doing there was NOT normal.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
pek771 0
After reading the entire 68 page other post, and much of this post, in addition to Sluggo's website, I have come to the realization that only two factors have any meaning relative to the entire DBC saga. One is the found money, and more importantly, the unfound money. I suspect due to the unreliability of any physical means of identification, such as DNA or fingerprints, almost anyone could claim to be DBC. Now, if someone could produce a $20 bill with the correct serial number, that would make this interesting.
The most important factor is that the point of the pressure bump. If not for the recreation of this by the same aircraft and aircrew, this point could be moot. But, the sled drop test, to the flight crew, was the same as what we now believe to be the exit point for DBC. The entire case is wrapped around this supposed jump point.
Robert99 does an excellent analysis on this. However, I am unclear on one thing...was the rear door open or closed when the aircraft landed in Reno. I suspect it was open. Is the pressure bump a 100% certainty that was the point of exit? Most likely. But if not 100% surety on the point of exit means he could have jumped outside of Reno, for all we know.
The most important factor is that the point of the pressure bump. If not for the recreation of this by the same aircraft and aircrew, this point could be moot. But, the sled drop test, to the flight crew, was the same as what we now believe to be the exit point for DBC. The entire case is wrapped around this supposed jump point.
Robert99 does an excellent analysis on this. However, I am unclear on one thing...was the rear door open or closed when the aircraft landed in Reno. I suspect it was open. Is the pressure bump a 100% certainty that was the point of exit? Most likely. But if not 100% surety on the point of exit means he could have jumped outside of Reno, for all we know.
Orange1 0
QuoteQuoteYou can't quote books to tell us what people think.
We know books get it wrong, whether deliberately or accidentally (such as the apparent confusion over the silver particles in Gray's book).
If YOU got it straight from TOM that would be different.
Gray did an interview with Tom Kaye, and spent quite a bit of time with him. You want to call him a liar, to say he misquoted Kaye? You tell him yourself. Otherwise I will accept that the interview is accurate and Kaye is fairly quoted. You should go to the source and ask Tom Kaye if that quote from the book is accurate. I have his email address and will give it to you in a PM if you wish.
a) there is a difference between being a liar and being confused...not sure you understand that
b) I still think Georger is absolutely correct, that you cannot claim to say something for definite without a direct source to the information. Examples from the thread: there is certainty on what is in the transcripts (except for the redacted bits obviously) as we have access to them. On the other hand, there is not consensus about what certain players have said because the information is second-hand. Just because you read it in a book doesn't automatically make it true. And again, I point to the confusion about the silver particles as an obvious example. So, when YOU speak to Kaye and get it from the horse's mouth, feel free to tell us for definite. I have better things to do than act as a fact-checker for your forum posts.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Orange1 0
Well thank you Blevins.. that was a useful post. 
See - all we want is something to verify!
Edited to add - and this
QuoteGray's book translated some of our research well and other parts were misconstrued.
certainly backs up the questioning of just quoting what was in the book... don't you think?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Robert99 50
QuoteAfter reading the entire 68 page other post, and much of this post, in addition to Sluggo's website, I have come to the realization that only two factors have any meaning relative to the entire DBC saga. One is the found money, and more importantly, the unfound money. I suspect due to the unreliability of any physical means of identification, such as DNA or fingerprints, almost anyone could claim to be DBC. Now, if someone could produce a $20 bill with the correct serial number, that would make this interesting.
The most important factor is that the point of the pressure bump. If not for the recreation of this by the same aircraft and aircrew, this point could be moot. But, the sled drop test, to the flight crew, was the same as what we now believe to be the exit point for DBC. The entire case is wrapped around this supposed jump point.
Robert99 does an excellent analysis on this. However, I am unclear on one thing...was the rear door open or closed when the aircraft landed in Reno. I suspect it was open. Is the pressure bump a 100% certainty that was the point of exit? Most likely. But if not 100% surety on the point of exit means he could have jumped outside of Reno, for all we know.
PEK771, The aft stairs were down, or at least unlocked, for almost the entire distance from Seattle to Reno. Those stairs did drag the runway or taxi strip, but were only slightly damaged, during the landing at Reno.
The status of the pressure hull door during the flight from Seattle to Reno is not clearly documented. But in view of the fact that Cooper wanted the stairs to be lowered slightly before the takeoff from Seattle, it is very likely that he also wanted the pressure hull door also open.
Cooper would not have any reason to close the pressure hull door prior to jumping. And after jumping, it is unlikely that the door would close itself. The wind situation in the rear of the passenger area was definitely not as bad as Gray's book claims.
So for all practical purposes, the pressure hull door was probably open for about the same amount of time as the stairs were unlocked.
One question, does anyone know the physical location of the controls for the aft stairs? Are they outside the pressure hull?
Also, the pressure bump is the only one mentioned in connection with the flight, so it is the logical point to consider to be the jump location.
pek771 0
Robert99:
If the cockpit indicator light was on indicating a stairway down condition, would there not be a similar light for the pressure door? This point has either not been clearly defined, as you say, or I missed it. This is central to the exit point. I am going to have to guess that for whatever reason, the FBI et al have determined that the pressure bump and the point of exit are concurrent, else this entire caper is totally out of whack.
Pat
If the cockpit indicator light was on indicating a stairway down condition, would there not be a similar light for the pressure door? This point has either not been clearly defined, as you say, or I missed it. This is central to the exit point. I am going to have to guess that for whatever reason, the FBI et al have determined that the pressure bump and the point of exit are concurrent, else this entire caper is totally out of whack.
Pat
377 22
QuoteThe wind situation in the rear of the passenger area was definitely not as bad as Gray's book claims.
In the DC 9-21 jet I jumped from it was noisy but calm in the back of the fuselage right next to the ventral stair hatch opening. Nothing was blowing around inside the plane. The stairs were removed and the area lined with sheet metal so exiting jumpers wouldnt damage the interior structure.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
Just aquired a World Airways 727-173C Systems Study guide, a huge book full of diagrams etc. Nothing remarkable, but all references to the rear ventral airstair call it the "aft stair". Jo will like that.
For the record Jerry, I do not think Duane Weber was Cooper or that he ever made a parachute jump. My reason is dirt simple: no evidence.
I've never seen proof that Duane wasn't Cooper nor have I seen proof that Rod Serling or Hunter Thompson wasn't Cooper.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Robert99 50
QuoteJust aquired a World Airways 727-173C Systems Study guide, a huge book full of diagrams etc. Nothing remarkable, but all references to the rear ventral airstair call it the "aft stair". Jo will like that.
For the record Jerry, I do not think Duane Weber was Cooper or that he ever made a parachute jump. My reason is dirt simple: no evidence.
I've never seen proof that Duane wasn't Cooper nor have I seen proof that Rod Serling or Hunter Thompson wasn't Cooper.
377
377, Does one of your 727 manuals give the location of the controls for the aft stairs?
Robert99 50
QuoteRobert99:
If the cockpit indicator light was on indicating a stairway down condition, would there not be a similar light for the pressure door? This point has either not been clearly defined, as you say, or I missed it. This is central to the exit point. I am going to have to guess that for whatever reason, the FBI et al have determined that the pressure bump and the point of exit are concurrent, else this entire caper is totally out of whack.
Pat
Pek771, My guess is that there would be such a light for the pressure hull door. But I don't have any information on it.
Correct.
I think the most likely explanation for the bump was Coopers exit but it's not the only possible one. If the crew were sure the first bump was his exit they'd be in mind frame which might cause them to be less vigilant about subsequent pressure anomalies.
It's possible that the people doing the intial radar investigation were unaware that an exiting jumper presents a decent target. I bet Coopers exit was seeable. It might have only been in the raw data but it was likely there. The raw data, if recorded, is probably long gone now.
377
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites