DB Cooper

[Farflung 0]

The control box for the aft stairs is outside the pressure vessel.

Facing aft, it is located on the left side inside the tailcone.

See attachments.

[Robert99 50]

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The control box for the aft stairs is outside the pressure vessel.

Facing aft, it is located on the left side inside the tailcone.

See attachments.

Farflung, Thanks.

[hangdiver 1]

I've just caught up on 10+ pages...been doing important shit...imagine that...???...!!!

But...here are a couple of gems I found...reprimand me if I got them wrong...

377 says...

"Just roll with it, you know, like an emotional PLF"

Thanks for that gem 377!!!

georger says...

"well . . . gag me with a Rhinosaurus."

Thanks georger...for making me bust a gut...!!!

well...I'm still putting my dad out there as a potential suspect...remember...I can put him under a parachute...

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[377 22]

Quote

The control box for the aft stairs is outside the pressure vessel.

Facing aft, it is located on the left side inside the tailcone.

See attachments.

Thanks Farflung, good stuff. I have some detailed but kind of blurry stuff from my World Airways 727-172 systems manual that I'll try to post. One drawing in particular has a LOT of detailed info about the stairs, and its bearings, pivots, subbers, struts, actuator etc. The original is blurry but readable. I'll see if I can get as good a copy as possible before posting. Maybe Georger's Image Enhancement Lab can spruce it up.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Robert99 50]

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The control box for the aft stairs is outside the pressure vessel.

Facing aft, it is located on the left side inside the tailcone.

See attachments.

If Cooper had trouble opening these stairs after receiving instructions from Tina and reading the placard (which didn't blow away until after the stairs were open), then Cooper's mechanical hands-on experience with a 727 may have been ZERO prior to the hijack flight.

Presumably, he could have gotten the other information from "beer talk" with a knowledgeable individual. Maybe we have over-estimated Cooper's skills and background.

[Farflung 0]

I see there is a new discovery called source attribution that makes some people happy. Although this technique is taught in every community college in the US, it is good to see it used. I harbor no fantasy that this will last longer than one thread page or until a theory is bruised.

The Fazio Bros have a sand company that gains their product via dredging operations along the Columbia River from mile marker 94 to marker 101.5, according to the Shoreline Management Master Program. Not all but a good amount of material is deposited on this site as part of keeping the Columbia navigable.

Because I dig paperwork and enjoy pain, I read the Army Corps of Engineers permit request for operations on the Columbia River. The types of dredging equipment that will be used are: hopper, pipeline, clamshell and excavator dredges and a drill barge (for drilling and blasting). Manly man equipment to be sure.

Now the mix has a dredging deposit site where Cooper’s money was found, a defined hydrological area where the dredging has occurred and V-23 airway crossing the Columbia River which supplies an Occam delighting minimal number of steps to deliver the money.

OK, that’s all I got.

[Orange1 0]

Hmm... Farflung, are you putting Kittinger forward as a suspect??

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Amazon 7]

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It wasn't two months after that original edition hit Amazon

I woulda kicked its ass

[pek771 0]

Farflung, wouldn't this have occurred to the FBI in, say, 1980 or so?
Or, does the Fazio Bros operation begin after that date?
In effect, the money is still in the river.

[hangdiver 1]

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***It wasn't two months after that original edition hit Amazon

I woulda kicked its ass

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Yeah. We did. Took a bit of time, though. That subject is closed, BTW. Even I'm sick of discussing it/him.

Side Note: Gray has this video going over at Amazon about his book. In it near the end, he says something about (paraphrased) 'the most basic clue, the thing they missed, had been in front of them the whole time...'

I was wondering if he was referring to Kaye's conclusion regarding the money. This is something to ask Gray, I think. WTH? WHAT CLUE?

Inquiring readers want to know. Wink

Woooooooooooooooossshhhh.........................................................

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[skyjack71 0]

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I see there is a new discovery called source attribution that makes some people happy. Although this technique is taught in every community college in the US, it is good to see it used. I harbor no fantasy that this will last longer than one thread page or until a theory is bruised.

The Fazio Bros have a sand company that gains their product via dredging operations along the Columbia River from mile marker 94 to marker 101.5, according to the Shoreline Management Master Program. Not all but a good amount of material is deposited on this site as part of keeping the Columbia navigable.

Because I dig paperwork and enjoy pain, I read the Army Corps of Engineers permit request for operations on the Columbia River. The types of dredging equipment that will be used are: hopper, pipeline, clamshell and excavator dredges and a drill barge (for drilling and blasting). Manly man equipment to be sure.

Now the mix has a dredging deposit site where Cooper’s money was found, a defined hydrological area where the dredging has occurred and V-23 airway crossing the Columbia River which supplies an Occam delighting minimal number of steps to deliver the money.

OK, that’s all I got.

Farflung I usually do not respond to your posts except on rare occassions. Dredging by any means would have cause the bills to separate and/or torn into bits, be it put there in 1971 or 1979 by any of the listed pieces of equipment. The money and bands were brittle and stuck together. I am using plain logic - born and raised on a farm logic and finding things in the river logic.

The money was put there in 1979 - approx 6 months before it was found. We have NO idea what condition it was in when it was put on the river or where it had been stored for the prior 7 yrs. Seems like the testing the River group did would have found some indications of storage. Perhaps the silver is the clue.

I firmly believe that Weber was Cooper - I will follow my instincts about what he would have done. "Never put all your eggs in ONE basket".

Duane's rambling after going on the morphine: He is rambling about putting X# of dollar in a bucket and he can't find the bucket. This was probably the morphine providing a sum of X# of dollars.

In other words I am thinking out loud - just rambling thoughts with no bases other than what he said and what I saw. Did Cooper make more than ONE deposit in or near that river?

One was across from the PDX and West of it. Now I understand that was Symbalic? This is the one where I couldn't see the PDX but he explained the trees hid the tower. There are tracks and a berm behind us - on the north side. He tells me there are nice homes in a subdivision North of the berm.

Then we stopped at the Green tank (I guess because I got out of the car he decided that was NOT a very good place to leave his booty). It was flat there and no place for him to go out of my visual site.

The next stop was an open area on the river and a house and trees - I stayed in the car again, but got out for a moment. He was not gone long. Before I went to WA in 2001 I thought this was Tena's bar, but the way the Crew approached it - my directional finder said No.. Visually it was the same, but the approach and changes didn't factored in - plus being with a large number of people and talking and cameras.

I didn't remember any equipment in 1979 or another building other than a house, a fence and trees and farm land.
No one showed me pictures of HOW it looked in 1979 or even in 1980 when the money was found...unless they were in Himmelsbach or Tosaw's book, I would NOT see those pictures until much later. Remember I did NOT own a computer until Jan of 2000. Now it all just runs together.

The last stop was the Red Lion where he threw the paper bag and its contents into the water from the pilings or whatever you guys called the barrier in the back of the Red Lion in 1979.

Oh, Well I gave it all I had for
15 yrs. No one ever listened or cared except Sluggo to see what I held. I don't remember if I showed the books or mentioned them to Sluggo. I had vaguely mentioned them to the FBI several times, The FBI was not interested in the books.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Farflung 0]

Farflung quotes massively overly optimistic forecast from self:

“I see there is a new discovery called source attribution that makes some people happy. Although this technique is taught in every community college in the US, it is good to see it used. I harbor no fantasy that this will last longer than one thread page or until a theory is bruised.”

I would like to amend this to: It will suffer a crib death within half a dozen comments…… twice.

That’s all I got.

[sailshaw 0]

Robbert99: You ask: One question, does anyone know the physical location of the controls for the aft stairs? Are they outside the pressure hull?

The answer is the pressure hull door (aft door) has a rotating lever that unlocks the door by rotating the lever handle aprox 180 degrees counter clockwise. Then the door is free to be pulled inside the pressure hull to the left of the door operator and against the fore and aft bulkhead. The Aft Airstairs are unlocked and drop by gravity by a similar rotating lever handle, located on the Aft Airstair door, which also rotates about 180 degrees counter clockwise. DB may have never opened a real door before but knew all about it. In practice the crew sometimes have a hard pull if the pressure inside and outside have not equalized. That could explain why DB asked for help in getting the door open.

Bob

[hangdiver 1]

Quote

Farflung quotes massively overly optimistic forecast from self:

“I see there is a new discovery called source attribution that makes some people happy. Although this technique is taught in every community college in the US, it is good to see it used. I harbor no fantasy that this will last longer than one thread page or until a theory is bruised.”

I would like to amend this to: It will suffer a crib death within half a dozen comments…… twice.

That’s all I got.

so sorry..............no...reallly.....,.I am sorry....

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[Robert99 50]

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Robbert99: You ask: One question, does anyone know the physical location of the controls for the aft stairs? Are they outside the pressure hull?

The answer is the pressure hull door (aft door) has a rotating lever that unlocks the door by rotating the lever handle aprox 180 degrees counter clockwise. Then the door is free to be pulled inside the pressure hull to the left of the door operator and against the fore and aft bulkhead. The Aft Airstairs are unlocked and drop by gravity by a similar rotating lever handle, located on the Aft Airstair door, which also rotates about 180 degrees counter clockwise. DB may have never opened a real door before but knew all about it. In practice the crew sometimes have a hard pull if the pressure inside and outside have not equalized. That could explain why DB asked for help in getting the door open.

Bob

Sailshaw, Thanks for the information. You are suggesting that the pressure hull door was closed during the takeoff from Seattle. Pek771 was also asking if the pressure hull door had a warning light on the Flight Engineer's panel to indicate when it is open. Do you have an answer for him?

[sailshaw 0]

Robbert99: The info in my post about the Aft Pressure Hull door is close to correct. However the Lever to drop the Aft Airstair is as Farflung posted with drawings. I had forgotten the lever and assumed/remembered another lever which was not true.
There was only one light in the cockpit that indicated when the Airstair was deployed. I may be wrong but don't believe there was another light to indicate the pressure hull door open. Sorry about that.

Bob

[skyjack71 0]

Notice the silence from those who know?

Amazing!

View the attachments.

Sideburns
Tina
Girl in Book
Tie Tack
Book #1

P.S.
Some woman is doing a "childrens book" and wants pictures of Duane? WHY in the world would someone do a childrens' book about an unsolved crime?

I can see the future!
4th Grade Class Assignment:
How to Skyjack a Plane.

About as smart as trying to sell Glacier Ice in Hawaii. Only I understand one of the Cooper Seekers actually did this and made money from it.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Amazon 7]

[G_Jones 0]

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According to Tom Kaye's research, for the money to have floated miles along the Columbia or have been dredged up from the bottom of the river is highly unlikely. He's probably right. The packets of bills found at Tena Bar would NOT have the numbers on them lined up as perfectly as they were.

What about a bag full of money that may have been tightly bound, and never even opened? Cooper had to secure the bag somehow before the jump. Maybe no loose stacks of money were ever floating free in the water. The money could have remained in the bag, over time fusing together, until the whole bag was torn open in the dredging process, leaving behind only one chunk of bills.

[G_Jones 0]

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According to Tom Kaye's research, for the money to have floated miles along the Columbia or have been dredged up from the bottom of the river is highly unlikely. He's probably right. The packets of bills found at Tena Bar would NOT have the numbers on them lined up as perfectly as they were.

What about a bag full of money that may have been tightly bound, and never even opened? Cooper had to secure the bag somehow before the jump. Maybe no loose stacks of money were ever floating free in the water. The money could have remained in the bag, over time fusing together, until the whole bag was torn open in the dredging process, leaving behind only one chunk of bills.

*Speculation disclaimer*

Even if this is true, just sitting in the water for an extended length of time could cause the bills to absorb water and spread a bit.

The violent action of dredging could also easily mis-align the bills.

How did three bundles end up in the same spot with nothing else found? If they were in the bag, where is it? If the bag dropped into the river while Cooper was still falling, they would have drifted with the river for at least a short distance and gotten wet. Again...the water problem and alignment, as Kaye says.

If Cooper went into the river as a no-pull, where are the chutes, his body, the briefcase, and the remainder of the money? Going into the Columbia has been argued by many, but then this idea doesn't jive with the most popular point of egress. Rataczak has said he was sure Cooper jumped some flying minutes north of Vancouver. How MANY minutes is also open to debate. Six to eight minutes has been tossed around a lot, which makes it approximately 18-21 miles at least. Don't quote me. Ask Sluggo.

The money at Tena Bar is quite a ways from the probable (there is dispute here) jump point. If so, how did the bills travel so far? By water? Kaye has addressed that issue.

Maybe he's right. It's so simple, and yet it makes sense. He says it only took a few minutes in the water for the bills to spread when he did his catch-and-release experiment. So why are the bundles at Tena Bar in perfect alignment? It's hard to get around this.

I don't know where Cooper jumped or where his chute ended up. I don't know how the money would get to Tena Bar if Cooper didn't survive. I'm not suggesting he landed in the Columbia as that seems unlikely; but that the money may have ended up in the river somehow, still inside the bag. I do know that three bundles turned up in the same place, and it seems very unlikely that the money arrived there by floating as separate loose bundles.

Somebody had to place them there together, or they arrived there by some means other than floating loose. If not a person or animal, I don't know what else other than the dredging process could have put them there. It would be nice if that could be ruled out as a possibility.

I've seen the video where Tom puts a single bundle of bills on a fishing line. They quickly fan out and sink, not really a huge surprise. But if bundles of bills were wrapped and tied in a bag, they may not be able to fan out. I would think under the circumstances, most or all of the bundles and bills, if tightly packed together, would remain pressed and stuck together until the bag was disrupted by something or disintegrated completely.

I don't have any idea as to how much the dredging process would chew things up, but three stacks of bills clumped together isn't a very large object. If stuck together for a long time, rotting clumps of bills might make it through dredging without being misaligned. The rest of the money may have been in tiny pieces, and those pieces and the bag parts may have been left on the riverbank to wash away for a considerable amount of time before the remaining money was found and anyone would be specifically searching.

[Orange1 0]

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He says it only took a few minutes in the water for the bills to spread when he did his catch-and-release experiment. So why are the bundles at Tena Bar in perfect alignment? It's hard to get around this.

OK, there's something I'm not getting about this. If it only takes a few minutes for the bills to fan out ...then yes, why indeed were the bills in perfect alignment when they were found? Had they only been in the water for less than a few minutes? (well, there has been speculation before they were actually planted by the Ingrams.) If not, one has to assume they were buried in the riverbank/sand, not thrown in the water. If the intention is to throw investigators off the trail (a rather daft assumption in my opinion given the time lapse), that seems a bit silly, because you are hiding the bills. So, what reason could there be to bury the bills? Because, if you take Kaye's conclusion to its logical end, irrespective of whether flow or mechanical or human hand took the money there, it was not just "in the water" for very long at all.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[pek771 0]

I don't understand the "fan out" aspect of this. A stack of bills, wrapped by rubber band(s) isn't going to "fan out", it will remain as is. Rubber bands, I have discovered, will last indefinitely in water...no sunlight or ozone to destroy them.

If Cooper goes into the Columbia as a "no pull", he could have essentially buried the money, along with himself, and some money got dislodged and ended up at Tena Bar during dredging operations. The rest, along with Cooper, his chute and the money is in the river or the Pacific. If the money landed in a watershed, it is unlikely it made it's way to that sand bar.

[pek771 0]

Looks like the Fazio Bros did not operate the site at 12112 NW Lower Road in Vancouver prior to 1976. Perhaps someone else did, or there was no site there.

Next question: where did Fazio dredge just prior to the discovery of the money in 1980 (?) Did the FBI ask these questions?

[Farflung 0]

Pek771,

I can’t imagine that the FBI and thousands haven’t thought of this already. I just added this as a sort of starting point for every other theory that rolls along. By using the simplest profile (my assumption) and adding steps, inferences, processes and cycle times in order to get the desired or expected result.

If a ‘suspect’ survived the jump, then there simply is no amount of data that will convince people with that ‘faith system’ that there is even a remote chance he died (reference previous page of comments). They will typically make their tale more complex, harder to complete and as a byproduct lower the probability that it even happened. Paradoxically these people think they are making a stronger case, like Marla Cooper insisting she saw the Dan Cooper comic in her uncle’s room.

Without the consideration of the pressure bump and with the knowledge that the crew thought Cooper could have been back there while landing in Reno (although some say 99% sure he was gone); the easiest solution (nowhere have I said correct) is a splash in the Columbia with a clamshell dredge dropping some artifacts on a riverbank. That is all. I believe that a person armed with the same data should decide for themselves. Others think you should simply take their ‘good word’ for things or that every farm person was born with a certain inalienable knowledge about dredging and aggregate operations.

I assume some canvas bag of money would have taken on the same color as the rest of the river bottom debris. Additionally the tractor and front loaders on the beach may not have noticed that either and the sheer wheel weight could have pressed some clump of garbage into the sand where it remained for years. Again I don’t know, but others claim they do.

I think those who are being honest in the research would scribe the assumptions and tasks required to make something without other evidence more probable or at least plausible. Cooper defies all criminal history by using cash buried on gated private property, with an enormous amount of industrial activity to decoy the police. Does this even look good on paper? Eye of the beholder stuff I guess.

The Fazio’s operation was going long before the money was discovered. How a bag of money behaves or degrades in a cold, anaerobic environment is a complete unknown to me. Most experiments begin with a certain bias like flinging a single pack of bills into a river at the end of a fishing pole where the assumption is the bills separated from the bag and body and floated. Or how rubber bands only last for a certain amount of time in the open air or buried in a backyard while ignoring sitting at the bottom of a dark, cold river. I don’t know what the answer would be or if it would even be different but I would like an honest, un-emotive answer. I won’t hold my breath on this thread.

[Robert99 50]

Farflung is correct. It basically comes down to your "faith system".