DB Cooper

[skyjack71 0]

What IF the money was never in the Columbia/ What if someone made a deposit there the last Week of Sept in 1979? That would explain the condition of the bills.

Now this leaves the another question: What & where could they have been for 7 yrs? Perhaps this is what Kaye should have studied. He and others kept trying to put the money in the river in 1971.

If the money was STORED in another location for 6 yrs - where was it stored and what would have been the condition of the money in 1979?

Could the deterioration of the found money have occurred in 7 months and/or was the money already deteriorating when it was put on the river banks.

If the money was already deteriorating - what could have been the cause. For instance, say the money had been put in a plastic or metal container (like a feed bucket) and water had seeped into the container settling on the bottom, but not saturating the entire contents of the container.

Would not this have in 6 yrs have caused the contents to MOLD. When mold dries on paper it leaves 'HOLES'. I do not know the science behind this - it is just old lady and farm raised sense. Damp moldy paper and fabric ends up with holes if left to dry-out in a dark damp container.

On the farm "feed" would sometime get moldy and we had to dispose of it. A stack of burlap sack - the bottom ones had to be discarded but the uppers that had not molded where salvagable.

Could something like this account for the condition of the money? I have always felt that Weber could not salvage ALL of the money in 1979.

I will not forget the nightmare during the 1st 6 months we lived in CO. 1977. Duane is rambling in his sleep - he wakes up screaming a blood curdling scream and shouts "I left my prints on the Aft Stairs!"

Remember I asked Duane what aft stairs was and he told me it was something in a jail and DUMB me believed him. He just said he got in some trouble with a couple of guys and spent a couple of months in a county jail.
He did not tell me the time span of this "jail" time and I did not ask, nor did he tell me what the crime was.

I believe Cooper hid the money in more than one place and took some for traveling "money". Vegas - both he and his wife talked about Vegas and knew people from Vegas - but - NO record of the 2 ever having lived there. Duane introduced me to a very wealth lady in Ft. Lauderdale who lived in the Chicago area - their main topic of discussion was Vegas...I still do not know who that woman was other than the name Jeanette (or similar sounding name) Miers - perhaps the name was Fake. Miers the woman SPELLED for me as I grew up with some Myers and she told me it was an "i" and not a "y".

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 50]

Quote

What IF the money was never in the Columbia/ What if someone made a deposit there the last Week of Sept in 1979? That would explain the condition of the bills.

Now this leaves the another question: What & where could they have been for 7 yrs? Perhaps this is what Kaye should have studied. He and others kept trying to put the money in the river in 1971.

If the money was STORED in another location for 6 yrs - where was it stored and what would have been the condition of the money in 1979.

Could the deterioration of the found money have occurred in 7 months and/or was the money already deteriorating when it was put on the river banks.

If the money was already deteriorating - what could have been the cause. For instance, say the money had been put in a plastic or metal container (like a feed bucket) and water had seeped into the container settling on the bottom, but not saturating the entire contents of the container.

Would not this have in 6 yrs have caused the contents to MOLD. When mold dries on paper it leaves 'HOLES'. I do not know the science behind this - it is just old lady and farm raised sense.

On the farm "feed" would sometime get moldy and we had to dispose of it. A stack of burlap sack - the bottom ones had to be discarded but the uppers that had not molded where salvagable.

Could something like this account for the condition of the money. I have always felt that Weber could not salvage ALL of the money in 1979.

I will not forget the nightmare during the 1st 6 months we lived in CO. 1977. Duane is rambling in his sleep - he wakes up screaming a blood curdling scream and shouts "I left my prints on the Aft Stairs!"

Remember I asked Duane what aft stairs was and he told me it was something in a jail and DUMB me believed him. He just said he got in some trouble with a couple of guys and spent a couple of months in a county jail.
He did not tell me the time span of this "jail" time and I did not ask, nor did he tell me what the crime was.

Jo, You should have paid more attention to what, other than Duane, has been discussed on this thread for the past couple of years at least.

Most of the issues you mention have already been covered to one degree or another.

[skyjack71 0]

I understand there have been other things discussed. Kaye did NOT really ever say anything in this thread I could understand.

Their insistance about the money made it useless - if you will notice I posted little in response to the discussions.
Nor did I understand some of what they talked about.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[pek771 0]

KISS was drilled into me long ago, although not everyone adheres to it. As Robert99 has demonstrated, the aircraft flight path could easily have taken it to the intersection of the Columbia on V23, and likely more on the west side of V23, so that exploding aircraft parts don't rain down on a major metropolitan area. I suppose if you are simply freefalling with no open parachute and a bag of money, you could be dredged up at some later date. This is a very distinct possibility. Perhaps there is some $194 K in a sand pile somewhere?

[Farflung 0]

I actually managed to find a picture of a Flight Engineers Door Annunciator from a 727. Problem is the display is hard to interpret without the lights on.

But I think I see (first row, fourth down) ‘AFT AIRSTAIR’ on the lens or some sort of Elvis-y thing. Perhaps someone could play with the image and see if there is a warning for the aft bulkhead/entry door as well.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

KISS was drilled into me long ago, although not everyone adheres to it. As Robert99 has demonstrated, the aircraft flight path could easily have taken it to the intersection of the Columbia on V23, and likely more on the west side of V23, so that exploding aircraft parts don't rain down on a major metropolitan area. I suppose if you are simply freefalling with no open parachute and a bag of money, you could be dredged up at some later date. This is a very distinct possibility. Perhaps there is some $194 K in a sand pile somewhere?

Pek771, Excellent observations. Perhaps the money never made it into the Columbia in the first place, except when the Columbia reached flood stage.

Maybe old DBC got covered by some sand, say in the winter and spring of 71/72, and then only reappeared periodically. Who knows, he might still be there today buried under sand with the roots of some bushes holding him and the equipment in place. "There" is defined as being very close to where the money was found.

Would the lady in your attached picture be interested in doing some digging near Tina Bar?

[Robert99 50]

Quote

I actually managed to find a picture of a Flight Engineers Door Annunciator from a 727. Problem is the display is hard to interpret without the lights on.

But I think I see (first row, fourth down) ‘AFT AIRSTAIR’ on the lens or some sort of Elvis-y thing. Perhaps someone could play with the image and see if there is a warning for the aft bulkhead/entry door as well.

Farflung, Congratulations on your still excellent eyesight.

[Farflung 0]

OK, so I did some sciencey things that only I understand in order to bring out what the Flight Engineer’s Annunciator panel lenses contain on a 727.

Next I’m going to cast this thing into the Columbia and see how long it takes until a Hot Nun finds it. I saw a slightly ‘modified’ version of this thing in an Airstream trailer from Arizona. I think I’m getting a clue.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155280/raging-clues

[Farflung 0]

Well I’m doing my best to find some better data about the Flight Engineer’s panel on a 727.

There must be hundreds and thousands of blinking and flashing lights on those panels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmSSIBjgjqE&feature=related

I’m alright, I’m alright…. Just need to see an illuminated panel.

[pek771 0]

Quote

Would the lady in your attached picture be interested in doing some digging near Tina Bar?

She has been digging there during summers since 1972. She hasn't found anything yet.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Quote

Would the lady in your attached picture be interested in doing some digging near Tina Bar?

She has been digging there during summers since 1972. She hasn't found anything yet.

Maybe a metal detector could help her find a more favorable area for digging. You can never tell what kind of "clams" she might find.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Well I’m doing my best to find some better data about the Flight Engineer’s panel on a 727.

There must be hundreds and thousands of blinking and flashing lights on those panels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmSSIBjgjqE&feature=related

I’m alright, I’m alright…. Just need to see an illuminated panel.

Is the picture in the upper right hand corner of your latest "Swith Lights and Knobs" for a four engine or eight engine 727? I must have forgotten some of the 727 versions.

[Farflung 0]

Good catch Robert99, I wanted to exaggerate the point of boundless switches, lights and knobs all flashing and blinking so I added the FE’s panel from the Concorde.

My perfidy was short lived thus proving there is a big old world out there and some of it is pretty smart.

Quick proof of how little gets by some people on this thread even if they don’t say a single word. Would be a good example for those who talk out of their ‘face’ and shoot from the hip then assume they are being believed.

Here is a better image of a 727 FE panel without any manipulation, steering or instinctual knowledge of what a dredge is capable of doing.

[JerryThomas 0]

Blevins Tom Kaye got a lot of things wrong . Tom Kaye is not a scientist. He is a high School graduate with many interest. Ask him and he will tell you the same. His techniques and observations leaves a hell of a lot to be desired. Jerry

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Good catch Robert99, I wanted to exaggerate the point of boundless switches, lights and knobs all flashing and blinking so I added the FE’s panel from the Concorde.

My perfidy was short lived thus proving there is a big old world out there and some of it is pretty smart.

Quick proof of how little gets by some people on this thread even if they don’t say a single word. Would be a good example for those who talk out of their ‘face’ and shoot from the hip then assume they are being believed.

Here is a better image of a 727 FE panel without any manipulation, steering or instinctual knowledge of what a dredge is capable of doing.

N223FE first flew on 08-10-1974 (meaning that it just turned 37 years old), served with several airlines, was delivered to Federal Express on 07-01-1987 and is still active apparently on FE's routes in South America.

[JerryThomas 0]

Jones I have posted this many times along with the info from the fazio brothers statement. That at the time the money was found above it at the high water line bits/pieces of money was also found for a good distance.Remember I was there the intire time that Gray, Tom, Carr, ect, was there. I assisted with Tom test his only interest was to solve the Cooper case by proving that Cooper landed in the river. Would have worked if I had not been there.We had looneys comming out of the wood work claiming to know where Cooper camped out it was not on the columbia. Gray spent a great deal of time with one of these guys. Any way the money was not planted there it was washed up there. The condition of the money with the edges rounded off and pieces scattered proves it. And yes it could and did float for a long period of time as I have indicated in a recent post it even could have floated just under the water line. Your right about the money being compressed by the elimates and stuck together this is what made it boyant.Jerry

[377 22]

http://tinyurl.com/3ptkv7g


377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Farflung 0]

Really nice to see a manual on this mysterious AFT AIRSTAIR system. A thousand thanks 377, always the scholar and gent.

It illustrates how simple and straight forward they are to operate with the cryptic controls which say ‘DOWN’.

As usual these pages raise some questions about what the crew observed. Since this morning had me dithering with the Flight Engineer’s Annunciator panel, I wanted to know what energized that display.

According to the manual once the handle is moved to the ‘DOWN’ position that illuminates the ‘AFT AIRSTAIRS’ light on the Flight Engineer’s panel. A ‘STRUT NOT DOWN-LOCKED’ light will illuminate near the control box and the stairs will gravity fall with the descent controlled by a valve in the ‘UP’ hydraulics. Simple enough for the operator. Now for the electronics.

For the indicator light on the panel to extinguish a series of conditions all must be met:

1. The Aft Stairs must be up (retracted).
2. They must be locked.
3. The control handle must be placed in the ‘UP’ detent.

Unless Cooper moved the handle to ‘UP’ before he jumped I’m not sure how this indicator would have gone out for a few seconds. Of course there is the possibility that the amber AFT AIRSTAIRS light is controlled by the stairs reaching a micro-switch. I simply don’t know. But with the available data it appears that the AFT AIRSTAIRS light would not have gone off without the handle in the UP position and this should have locked the stairs in place via the up-lock cams. Perhaps someone else can offer a better answer with source attribution.

That’s all I got.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Really nice to see a manual on this mysterious AFT AIRSTAIR system. A thousand thanks 377, always the scholar and gent.

It illustrates how simple and straight forward they are to operate with the cryptic controls which say ‘DOWN’.

As usual these pages raise some questions about what the crew observed. Since this morning had me dithering with the Flight Engineer’s Annunciator panel, I wanted to know what energized that display.

According to the manual once the handle is moved to the ‘DOWN’ position that illuminates the ‘AFT AIRSTAIRS’ light on the Flight Engineer’s panel. A ‘STRUT NOT DOWN-LOCKED’ light will illuminate near the control box and the stairs will gravity fall with the descent controlled by a valve in the ‘UP’ hydraulics. Simple enough for the operator. Now for the electronics.

For the indicator light on the panel to extinguish a series of conditions all must be met:

1. The Aft Stairs must be up (retracted).
2. They must be locked.
3. The control handle must be placed in the ‘UP’ detent.

Unless Cooper moved the handle to ‘UP’ before he jumped I’m not sure how this indicator would have gone out for a few seconds. Of course there is the possibility that the amber AFT AIRSTAIRS light is controlled by the stairs reaching a micro-switch. I simply don’t know. But with the available data it appears that the AFT AIRSTAIRS light would not have gone off without the handle in the UP position and this should have locked the stairs in place via the up-lock cams. Perhaps someone else can offer a better answer with source attribution.

That’s all I got.

Sailshaw, Can you add to this? Otherwise, it looks like the flight crew has some explaining to do about their previous remarks.

[pek771 0]

So, when you get to the party late (as I did), you find out lots of stuff you didn't previously know. Fazio Brothers, for instance. Tough being a casual observer for 40 years and then getting involved...thanks, Marla!

Excellent find on the stairs manual. If aft stairs need to be in the detent to make the microswitch, I suppose it is quite possible that the stair bounce at exit shot the stairs to the detent, only to have gravity pull the stairs back down, and open the switch again.

Was there ever any mention of the lever positions upon landing at Reno?

[Amazon 7]

Well Actually......

http://www.ccrh.org/comm/slough/primary/howdredg.htm

After 1983
http://www.dredgingtoday.com/2010/05/03/the-essayons/

[Farflung 0]

After a few bottles of instant IQ, I checked the system schematic and highlighted the wrong switch for the warning light previously (spaz). This appears to be a momentary switch (toggle?) to energize the system ‘B’ hydraulics which raises the stairs.

There is a second switch near the ‘Latching Mechanism’ which also leads to the FE’s (Third Crewman’s Panel) and is presumably the other AFT AIRSTAIRS light.

Now another question is why the hydraulic system had such a limited dampening effect that the stairs retracted above the slipstream, past the latching mechanism cams, hit the micro-switch then fell back into the neutral position. I’m still missing something here. I know someone will be inherently skilled at this because there were AFT AIRSTAIRS on the farm, only they were made out of stone.

[pek771 0]

Cursory glance reveals three separate methods for door opening/closing. Simple drop, as you highlit before, This is the "no electrical power" scenario. Thre is also the B system hydraulics, and the self contained pneumatic system. Any system actuated other than the simple drop system will lock the stairs down, which would preclude the stairs from retracting back when the load pushed off. I am assuming this as the manual states the stairs will provide stability fore and aft in case of the nose becoming light during ingress or egress. There are some parallel switches in there, but it is difficult for me to look at the schematic on my little laptop screen. I will print it tomorrow and look harder.

I am also assuming the flight crew/ground crew found the stairs were gravity dropped upon landing in Reno.

BTW, Dr. Hoenig used to tell us, "you mechanical guys need to pay attention to these electronics. The whole world will be electronic someday."

[377 22]

I like the part of the aft stair system description which refers to "freefall". It is referring to the unpowered gravity drop method of stair deployment. When a jumper sees "freefall" he doesn't care about technical context. It always evokes thoughts of jumping.

Maybe Sheridan Peterson noticed this while working in tech documents at Boeing and an idea was born.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

The Dredging and all of that has been discussed and studied for many yrs. The finding have always been negative.

I have 2 very astute individuals who have searched this over and over. Both home grown in that area and both very very familiar with the dreging and the water flows. They both know the currents and the history of the area. The dredging or Cooper landing in the Columbia did NOT result in the money showing up on Tena's Bar.

Than you have all of the individuals in this forum who explored all of the possibilities with the river,..physically and thru research - yet, you come here and think you can make ALL of their RESEARCH just go Poof. Won't 'happen.

Note - those who know are NOT talking. Even I am NOT talking other than to tell you NOT to waste your time.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber