DB Cooper

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Quote

Blevins Tom Kaye got a lot of things wrong . Tom Kaye is not a scientist. He is a high School graduate with many interest. Ask him and he will tell you the same. His techniques and observations leaves a hell of a lot to be desired. Jerry

Really?

Hmm...

The link goes to Kaye's science publications. I had them all posted, but it took up too much space. Jerry, they don't just let ANYONE work at the Burke you know. (museum, UW)

Your opinion on Kaye is naturally biased. Should his research on the money turn out to be correct, this would mean you wasted more than two decades looking for Cooper's body. We both know this, so I can understand why you might discount his research. I don't know about his educational background, but he sounds like a pretty sharp guy to me.

I think it is time to ask JT to present his creditials and his degrees - YOU THINK? JT better go talk to his FBI friends...!!!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[sailshaw 0]

Robert99: The latest posts on the Aft Airstairs from Farflung and 377 just go to show me that I can't remember enough to add more to these mass amounts of information. I will talk to some of my 727 Commercial Pilot friends and see what they remember.

Bob

[Farflung 0]

Pek771 laments:

“So, when you get to the party late (as I did), you find out lots of stuff you didn't previously know. Fazio Brothers, for instance. Tough being a casual observer for 40 years and then getting involved...thanks, Marla!”

I’m sure you’ll discover there are many, many more to thank besides Marla as your journey continues through…. the Cooper-Zone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b5aW08ivHU

Here’s a little history about the Fazio site for those who walked into this Fellini flick somewhere in the middle.

The first stunningly done graphic (Fazio Sand) lends a sense of perspective about this aggregate operation. The red hatched area is a rough outline of the inventory of tens of thousands of square yards of material. All of which came from beneath the surface of the Columbia River and deposited on the beach where waiting implements hungrily moved that material to the storage area. Even the government does not want to pay twice to remove this stuff.

Another glimpse is given from the Google street view where one feels like they are trapped in the drifting dunes of Arabia with nothing but a scarab to notice your passing. The only relief arriving in the fantasy that ‘Mr Tiddles’ could not possibly fill that litter box in less than a week. All this featured in juxtaposition to the gentle curves and perfectly sculpted shape of the clamshell dredge. Next the dogleg serves as a yellow, reference to the historical images of the Fazio Dunes on the following attachment (Three Phazes of Fazio).

From 1970 to 1979 the operation can be viewed with a ‘dynamic’ shoreline and the magenta circle where the FBI marked as the discovery site for the Cooper dough. Armed with these tools you can decide if the dredging operations are a long shot consideration or another assumption or group of assumptions is more reasonable or plausible. On extremely rare occasions individuals have crafted whoppers on the thread that would make Burger King envious.

Of the many sources of information is one that may be useful in regard to operations along the Columbia River which is called the Port of Portland. These people claim to know something about dredging by outlining the various types used which include bucket and clamshell among several others. Why can’t they just pick one? No different than how a carpenter just uses a saw to do his job because hammers are too loud and heavy. Those clamshell rigs were used for some sort of ‘superfund’ clean up because they didn’t want the PCBs and carcinogens to flow downstream and spread the pollution. Oh boy, don’t they know how violent dredging is?

I hope you have enjoyed the historical tour of Fazio Sand, Tena Bar and clamshell dredges and use this to further your own research and investigation no matter where it takes you.

[JerryThomas 0]

Jo already have produced all my creditials medals an certifications to Geof Gray for his book. Have'nt read the book yet so don't know if he used them or not as for you once again you have know problem proving your self a lier all one has to do is read your past post . When my past post are read they are creditable. Please every one read and compare. Now its your turn take a polygraph. Im sure that from now on any one that does a story on you will request it if not they should to protect there company. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Farflung : More info on dredging can easily be found with a simple phone call to the fazio brothers they will tell you that the money could not have come from the dredging material. The dredging material height was placed far away from where the money was found. This may have been in Grays book the fazio's pointed out where the material was placed to Carr, Gray, Tom, Brian, Carrol, and myself.So no longer is dredging a isue. As for Tom Kaye's explanation on how the money got there he just made that up on the spur of the moment when he was asked by national geographic. He said they caught him of guard with that question so he came up with the answer that a ship drug it up stream.Cooper was know genius He hyjacked the aircraft out of desperation and was shocked to even get the money. He didn't take all things into account. He was shown how to open the rear stair well.He had never jumped from that platform before,it wasn't very stable and he had no practice jumping from this platform. I believe that the way they knew he jumped according to the pilots was the sudden change in the pressure.Jerry

[pek771 0]

Jerry, if Cooper plugs upstream, but in the area being dredged, and then he and the money get dredged, why is this not feasible?

[JerryThomas 0]

Jo one more thing I even sent Gray a copy of the title and deed to my gold mine so those like you could see the proof and I even offered to take a polygraph in reference to our conversations back in the begining as to your real statements on what duane said to you you know the one when he told you he knew who Cooper was then got mad and said the hell with it I'll let it die with me, even offered him the tapes.Jo give it up you will not win your attempt to destroy me .I don't attack you all I do is respond to your ignorant post. Jerry

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo one more thing I even sent Gray a copy of the title and deed to my gold mine so those like you could see the proof and I even offered to take a polygraph in reference to our conversations back in the begining as to your real statements on what duane said to you you know the one when he told you he knew who Cooper was then got mad and said the hell with it I'll let it die with me, even offered him the tapes.Jo give it up you will not win your attempt to destroy me .I don't attack you all I do is respond to your ignorant post. Jerry

What Duane said to me in the hospital has never changed. "I'mmm Dan Coooper"
and then when I did NOT understand what he was saying he said "Oh, F---, let it die with me!". I never said Duane knew who Cooper was but that he said he was Dan Cooper.

Later on because of the FBI - I let it go with my expression:
"If Duane was NOT Cooper, he sure as Hell knew who was.". This is how we ended the U.S. News article - so again you take too much out of context.

Talking to you on a phone was HORRIBLE - you argued then just like you do here - coercively. You are of an interrogator mind set and that is how you are geared.

As for you creditials - I am speaking of Educational courses and college courses.. Not mititary course where you are taught skill and how to harm people and to protect people. The educational level I am speaking of is language, spelling, history, math, chemistry and science.

BYE

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

Quote

Jo already have produced all my creditials medals an certifications to Geof Gray for his book. Have'nt read the book yet so don't know if he used them or not as for you once again you have know problem proving your self a lier all one has to do is read your past post . When my past post are read they are creditable. Please every one read and compare. Now its your turn take a polygraph. Im sure that from now on any one that does a story on you will request it if not they should to protect there company. Jerry

Jerry, Gray did write about your various credentials, experience and military instructor certifications.

I heard Geoff speak at a book signing. He didn't trash anyone. He even had nice things to say about Jo who he presented as an obsessed but highly organized person. Jo may want to portray herself as a ditzy blonde from time to time, but Gray said she is an immaculate housekeeper with well organized filing system on all things Cooper.

Geoff is smart guy, nice person and a skilled writer. If you are looking for a fact packed thorough investigation of the Cooper case you will find the book somewhat lacking, but if you are looking for a thoughtful and entertaining presentation and analysis of the lore of Cooperology, this book will be a real treat. I found myself wishing he would write a sequel, I'd buy it for sure.

I wish I could have proofread the book before it went to print. He has Barb Dayton siphoning "jet fuel" out of her Cessna to put in her car to make it go faster. Ouch.

He may have been told that "jet fuel" story by her friends, but it makes aviators cringe to read stuff like that. Cessna piston engines do not run on jet fuel and neither do cars, although I bet a diesel car could run OK on JP4.

I bought the book and I consider it money well spent. Its a good read and insightful. It makes you laugh at yourself if you are in the midst of the phenomena he writes about.

Snowmman gets some respect in the book and from the author in person. I liked that. Quade might have mixed feelings.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

pek771. According to the Dredgers, Army Corps of engineers and others in the know while observing the operation of the dredge on the columbia river. Nothing like a money bag could survive that dredge. Also the way this dredge worked was that when the sand was off loaded a large flexable pipe was used it was placed high up away from the rivers edge. Any thing that was in it would have remained above the water line.(The money was found below the high water line) This is how it was explained to me. This type of operation is no longer used. The way it is done now is the Army Corps of engineers has dumpsites of shore where the material is now deposited. There are those that thought the Cooper money could have come from Vancover Lake. This is also imposible. In the 70's vancover lake was ankle deep and did not conect to the columbia It was dug out made deep all materials from that operation was placed in the center of the lake to form the island that is there now.I talked to the contractor that did the work the info can also be found at the Vancouver library. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Jo you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that neither you or Duane knew who Cooper was. Just read your past post that proves it.If all I did was sit at a Computer and make up stories and use a spell checker my post would be flawless. Point being even Jo ?(what ever your real last name is) even makes spelling and gramor mistakes. So does most on this forum except maybe for Farflung. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

377: Glad you were able to meet Geof I told him you were going to his signing. He will be pleased to hear your review Ralph also thinks a great deal of Geof. Every one Ive talked too like's this kid. The ladies love him and he has no lack of dates.He has always said that this book was about the people. Although he did set out originally to solve the case.As the fuel mix up Im sure it was a over sight. And yes Jp4 will run diesel engines and keroseen stoves as well. But of course you knew that.Jerry

[Robert99 50]

Quote

pek771. According to the Dredgers, Army Corps of engineers and others in the know while observing the operation of the dredge on the columbia river. Nothing like a money bag could survive that dredge. Also the way this dredge worked was that when the sand was off loaded a large flexable pipe was used it was placed high up away from the rivers edge. Any thing that was in it would have remained above the water line.(The money was found below the high water line) This is how it was explained to me. This type of operation is no longer used. The way it is done now is the Army Corps of engineers has dumpsites of shore where the material is now deposited. There are those that thought the Cooper money could have come from Vancover Lake. This is also imposible. In the 70's vancover lake was ankle deep and did not conect to the columbia It was dug out made deep all materials from that operation was placed in the center of the lake to form the island that is there now.I talked to the contractor that did the work the info can also be found at the Vancouver library. Jerry

Another thing ruling out Vancouver Lake as the source of the money is the fact that the NW Lower River Road (which forms the east boundary of the Fazio property) is built on a levee.

Consequently, any thing that made it into Vancouver Lake in the early 1970s would have to exit into the Columbia several miles downstream of Tina Bar.

A "flushing channel" was constructed at the southern end (upstream from Tina Bar) of Vancouver Lake somewhere around 1980. This channel has gates to allow water to enter Vancouver Lake at the upstream end but the water then has to re-enter the river several miles downstream of Tina Bar.

It appears that this flushing channel can only be used during relatively high water levels in the Columbia. Other times it appears to be completly dry.

Also keep in mind that the river water level is normally about 5 to 10 feet above sea level at Tina Bar even including tide effects which are about 2 feet daily.

The highest point on the Fazio property is probably no more than 20 to 25 feet above sea level.

[JerryThomas 0]

Robert 99: excellent point on the lake.Also the first science team states that the money was not buried by human hands on Tina bar, we can prove it.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Robert 99: excellent point on the lake.Also the first science team states that the money was not buried by human hands on Tina bar, we can prove it.

Jerry, All of these discussions reduces to the point that the money got to Tina Bar by some natural process. You and I probably disagree on that process, but in my personal opinion it could not have come very far and was probably never far (just a few feet at most) from the east bank of the Columbia.

So in my personal opinion, Cooper had to land on solid ground and probably somewhere between the NW Lower River Road and the Columbia River in an east/west direction. In a north/south direction, the money location would represent the northern most point and somewhere in the area of the flushing channel would represent the absolute southern most point. There is a possibility that he could have landed on the eastern part of Caterpillar Island.

This leaves a very narrow strip of land for Cooper's landing point. And, of course, I agree with you and quite a few other people that Cooper cratered. I'm sure that a good walking inspection of that land area could narrow things down quite a bit more.

Elevation wise, Cooper probably impacted in a sandy area with vegetation that had substantial roots and that was mainly only flooded during such events as the spring runoff and major storms. The vegetation could keep him in place and the flooding could expose his remains and then rebury him from time to time.

As I have pointed out before, the fact that a "field" of debris from the bills, and at different levels in the sand, means that the money deposition was a repeatable event. That also means that Cooper's remains, and everything he had with him when he impacted, remained in essentially the same location during the period when the money was being deposited at Tina Bar.

For the above reasons, I feel that there is still a reasonable chance that evidence of Cooper, and his impact point, can still be located.

[JerryThomas 0]

Robert 99 all due respect to your opinion. We will just have to settle on the fact that we do agree to disagree on a few points. Have you given much thought to the fact The Army Corps of Engineers believe that the way the money entered the columbia river was from the Washougal watershed. Jerry

[Farflung 0]

It started with a list of dredges that the ‘Army Corps of Engineers’ supplied as equipment to be used on the Columbia River.

Then it was stated that ALL those dredges were too violent for the money.

A clamshell dredge was suggested as not being too violent.

Then it was offered that only ‘cutter and suction’ type dredges were used.

A report from the Port of Portland clearly states that clamshell dredging is common place along the Columbia.

Now (what a difference a day makes) the dredge deposits were placed too far from the edge of the river and the money was below the high water line so the dredge does not matter as this was analyzed by crack experts again.

OK, OK so the clamshell was not too violent just that type of dredge was never used even though the Army Corps of Engineers listed it on an EPA permit. Oh, no that’s not the problem it is that the spoils were too far away from the shore now.

From the image of the Fazio operation in 1974 (ref: Photo Interpretation 1974), a pair of river accretion formations or alluvial fans are clearly extending into the river. So there were some dredge operations that were not depositing material above the waterline since it is obvious to the most casual of observer that dredge deposits are the crescent shaped extensions into the river. These deposits were marshaled to the storage area by some means and likely some large capacity front loaders.

I’m fully expecting and braced for a further parse of the data without benefit of source, process or technique; garnished with an inexplicable leap of logic.

[377 22]

Farflung wrote:

Quote

I’m fully expecting and braced for a further parse of the data without benefit of source, process or technique; garnished with an inexplicable leap of logic.

Thanks Farflung. We've long needed a written protocol for Cooper "science" and now we have it.

Man do I wish Snowmman could join the dredge discussion. He dug pretty deep on that subject.



377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

377: Yes snow dug pretty deep So has farflung I do believe farflungs abilities is about equal to snows the only difference is farflung has a mellower /polite way of getting his point across.Jerry

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Robert 99 all due respect to your opinion. We will just have to settle on the fact that we do agree to disagree on a few points. Have you given much thought to the fact The Army Corps of Engineers believe that the way the money entered the columbia river was from the Washougal watershed. Jerry

Jerry, In my humble opinion, it is just not realistic for the Corps of Engineers, or anyone else, to expect that the money could have travelled 18+ miles in the Washougal and Columbia Rivers and then arrive at a very localized area on Tina Bar, with most of the bills still bundled with rubber bands and fragments also in a localized field, and no evidence whatsoever of the money bag.

Mother Nature doesn't work that way!

P.S. I'll leave the channel dredging, dam building, and such marco scale events to the Corps of Engineers. But once we get down to the micro scale events, I'm going to weigh in.

P.P.S. But you and I have discussed this before.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Farflung wrote:

Quote

I’m fully expecting and braced for a further parse of the data without benefit of source, process or technique; garnished with an inexplicable leap of logic.

Thanks Farflung. We've long needed a written protocol for Cooper "science" and now we have it.

Man do I wish Snowmman could join the dredge discussion. He dug pretty deep on that subject.



377

377 and Farflung, Feel free to work up a protocol for Cooper "science". It is sadly missing from this whole matter.

I would like to suggest a good place to start. Ask the FBI for their "proof" that Cooper jumped near Ariel or that the airliner even passed near Ariel.

You might also ask the FBI why they removed everything, repeat everything, from the Seattle ATC radio transcripts that would help confirm the flight path of the airliner in the area of the Mayfield (now Malay) Intersectgion until it was south of Portland.

It may be cheeky of me to even hint at the possibility that the radio transcripts do not support the "official" FBI position.

And gross sacrilege for me to suggest that the FBI "maps" are completely erroneous as to both times and positions. This matter has been discussed both on this thread and at greater lengths elsewhere.

You might include in your protocol a statement to the effect that the day to expect Cooper to walk into someone's office and throw the money bag on their desk is long past.

Perhaps we could try some constructive and productive activities for once. Sitting on one's fat ass and doing nothing but pontificating is a total waste except to one's ego.

I yield my soapbox. You can have a go at it.

[JerryThomas 0]

Robert 99 I understand how you feel about this isue. On the other hand mother nature has the ability to do most anything, Look at the grand canyon. Further more during Flood conditions that money could have moved an even greater distance. This is how it was believed to have traveled. Once again the power of mother nature. It's equal to the power of MOTHERS I don't even argue with that. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Robert 99 Here is a simple test for you or anyone else to do Get some paper about the thickness of money cut them to size Bundle them up to the thickness of banded money Band the stacks like the bank does put those in stacks of 3 or 4 put a ruber band around them. You can get a small canvas money bag from a bank. I got mine from wells Fargo. Put the bundles of fake money in a canvas bag Get it soak and wet then dry it out do this 5 or 6 times open the bag and check the budles you'll find there still in tack and feel like wood. Reseal the canvas bag throw it in the river and see how far it travels. Remember the budles of money were banded and then wraped with ruber bands.Now remember if canvas is left to the elements for a few years it rot's. Here comes a flood the water level reaches the bag of money and carrys it to the center of a small stream or river. The bag will float at the speed of that river(15- 20 mph)Then it hits the mouth of that river and flows into a larger river. During this time the bag gets knocked around by logs branches ect: and gets torn apart it has already traveled a great distance Now the money inside starts to get wet buddles separate and get knocked around the edges gets knocked of of them there still floating because there stuck together like glue and float like logs for a while.untill the water recedes and they land where there found. This is what happened. Try my test it will amaze you. It did me. Jerry

[pek771 0]

Was the money found in three separate bundles? Or were the bundles somehow attached together? Evel Kinevel could have dropped a single bundle when he was going into the Snake River and it could have ended up on Tena Bar, in theory.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Robert 99 Here is a simple test for you or anyone else to do Get some paper about the thickness of money cut them to size Bundle them up to the thickness of banded money Band the stacks like the bank does put those in stacks of 3 or 4 put a ruber band around them. You can get a small canvas money bag from a bank. I got mine from wells Fargo. Put the bundles of fake money in a canvas bag Get it soak and wet then dry it out do this 5 or 6 times open the bag and check the budles you'll find there still in tack and feel like wood. Reseal the canvas bag throw it in the river and see how far it travels. Remember the budles of money were banded and then wraped with ruber bands.Now remember if canvas is left to the elements for a few years it rot's. Here comes a flood the water level reaches the bag of money and carrys it to the center of a small stream or river. The bag will float at the speed of that river(15- 20 mph)Then it hits the mouth of that river and flows into a larger river. During this time the bag gets knocked around by logs branches ect: and gets torn apart it has already traveled a great distance Now the money inside starts to get wet buddles separate and get knocked around the edges gets knocked of of them there still floating because there stuck together like glue and float like logs for a while.untill the water recedes and they land where there found. This is what happened. Try my test it will amaze you. It did me. Jerry

Jerry, First let's discuss the speed of the Columbia River flow from Portland to the Pacific. It is almost exactly 100 statute miles from the Portland area to the Pacific. The water level along that distance decreases by approximately one foot per 10 miles of distance. For comparison, the Mississippi River water level decreases by approximately one foot per mile along its entire distance.

For further comparison, in the state where I live, it is not at all uncommon to have streams and (usually dry) rivers that descend 15 or more feet per mile. During high water periods, these streams and rivers can and do move boulders weighing a ton or more. They have taken down Interstate Highway bridges in less than five minutes. In short, they can and do rearrange the landscape.

Where did this 15-25 MPH number come from? Surely you don't intend to say that the Columbia River travels at that speed between Portland and the Pacific. If that were the case, all those tugboats and barges heading downstream through the Bonneville Dam lock would end up in the Pacific with no chance of ever getting back upstream of the Bonneville Dam.

Do you know how many rubber bands were on each packet of money? Was it two or more? Any number of scenarios can be postulated about how the money actually got to Tina Bar. But there is no actual "proof" that any of those scenarios are correct.

About the only thing that can be said is that the money was deposited at Tina Bar by natural means, at least this seems to be the general consensus of opinion now.

Additionally, it can be said with some degree of confidence that the money had not been underwater during the entire eight years it was missing. Also, that it had not been exposed to a great amount of violence.

But the details of all of the above is a matter of opinion. You have yours and I have mine. Neither opinion can be proven correct at this point.