DB Cooper

[smokin99 0]

Hominid said:
Maybe a size limit. I tried reading FAQs when I signed up, but the link was bad (URL not even proper form). Size limit would be a good possibilty where my post is concerned.

Could be, but I thought it usually tells you that?? Maybe not.

I have clicked preview post before and then clicked out before clicking post reply on the far right. And lost everything I posted.
Jo calls that going "poof". I call it operator error.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[Hominid 0]

I didn't even do PREVIEW. I'll try that.

[Hominid 0]

Thanks 377 for all the courtesy. Here's some answers to questions some shoulda asked, woven into the first part of a re-creation. All please excuse the foul-ups I'll have learning how to post here. So far I'm finding it unbelievably unwieldy. Suggestions?
--------------------

PART 1

About 7:40: Tina has gone forward, drawn the curtain at first class, and turned off the forward cabin lights. She saw Dan in back as she left, so there was at least some light back at the aft door. Dan doesn't have to do everything in near total darkness. There's a dim light back above the door (on the inside) that could be turned on at the aft attendant's panel, and also a brighter one if he wanted. My TWA manual with change pages up to Dec '68 indicates that TWA 727s had a couple of portable rechargeable lights. N467US likely had some as well in '71 since NWA was very safety contious.

The crew is anxious for Dan to leave, and they're anxious to cooperate with him so he won't blow them all up. But Dan will have to lower the aft airstairs to bring this about. The crew are thankful that NWA management has figured out how to get it done without the crew getting killed.

A few minutes before, on the ground back at Seattle, Elwood ("Al") had shouted over the radio something like "No, no. You can't do that!" when 305 had mentioned that the guy in back wanted to have the airstairs down in flight. 305 responded something to the effect that they and "Paul" thought they had a way figured out. This shut Al up except for some final sputtering.

"Paul" was Paul Soderlind. As part of Paul's duties as Director of Flight Operations, Technical, for NWA, he (not "Sortum," RB) was also head flight instructor and the company's flight safety officer. He even personally wrote instructions for flight crews. Paul said his job was best described as "Technical Chief Pilot." He was "hands on." A "pilot's pilot."

It was Paul's responsibility to ensure as much as possible that the whole skyjacking thing went down without harm to the crew. Mentioning Paul naturally quieted Al because Al was functionally subordinate to Paul. Al was the chief pilot for only the northwest region. Paul's boss, Nyrop, stressed two things at NWA: make money, and do it safely.

Also there on the ground, 305 said to air ops something like, "We've been reading the procedure you sent us. Will the stairs drop enough for the guy to get out?"

So 305 got a "procedure" from flight ops. There would be no need for a "procedure" if the procedure were just to have the guy drop the stairs the way you normally do, following the simple instructions right there at the control station. Normal dropping of the stairs was technically elementary--no procedure needed.

The "procedure" existed because NWA wanted to get those stairs dropped without endangering the crew any more than could be accommodated. The procedure would be not only about what Dan was to do, but also what the CREW needed to do.

Dan did not do an analysis like what I posted re. using the emergency extension system. The crew did not have to tell him equivalent info. He didn't need to know any of it.

Paul and others did analysis similar to what I did, going through all the ramifications of all the possible ways. But their analysis was directed at how to get the stairs down in the safest way possible for the crew. My focus was to figure out how it must have been done to give results like what we've been told. (lower forms read the last 2 sentences carefully.) They had the advantage of having info they knew related exactly to N467US. After doing that analysis, the procedure to do the job was simple. Something like:

"1. Turn off "B" hydraulics as soon as there's a bit of noise to cover it [if it was on], and don't turn it back on. Leave it off for the duration unless you're sure he's gone.

(305, you're doing this so he won't be able to put the stairs all the way down where they will be stuck unless you go back against his orders to check them and retract them if necessary. If they were fully deployed, you'd guzzle fuel and tear a lot of the aft part of the plane up if you had to land that way.)

"2. Ask the guy, for crew safety, not to move the normal control handle out of the UP position.

(If he disregards this, he could still gravity drop the stairs and they will still be stuck down, but they won't be down as far as if he used the hydraulic power.)

"3. Instruct him to use the emergency pneumatic extension system and how to do it." [They may have actually described this even though there were instructions posted at the control.]


Note that only the nonexplanatory parts of (2) and (3) needed to be conveyed to Dan. 305 probably added something like, "Our tech people say the stairs will definitely drop far enough after you walk out onto them for you to get out to the end."

Note that most of (1) and (2) is explanation so the crew would understand the reasons for the instructions. The procedures might have included something about flying without "B" hydraulics, which was probably in their flight manual as it is in the one I have.

Item (3) might have been a cause for Dan having problems dropping the stairs, as I will explain next time.

Here's a flash for Cooperites. Everyone on earth knew all they would need to know to drop the aft airstairs of "the" 727. Nobody knew before the event what it would take to do it in a way that NWA (Soderlind and the crew) figured would be safe for them. (source: Hominid)

"B" hydraulics would probably have already been off at Seattle unless 305 was on external power. TWA (we don't know about NWA) had their crews turn both B pumps off if they didn't have external power or the APU running. With APU or external power, they would have only one of the B pumps on until just before engine startup. If 305 had the APU running all the time 305 was on the ground, they might have had a problem with the hydraulic pump running all that time. I haven't actually checked this out.

It is possible that flight 305 could have disabled the hydraulic power to the airstair by pulling out a little circuit breaker in the cockpit. 377's manual indicates that the breaker was there at whatever the effective date of his manual would have been (pre-79). My TWA manual with pages dated as late as Dec '68 lists DC loads served by P6 breakers. It lists the airstair hydraulic shutoff valve as one of those loads, but only for their "C" (convertible) 727s. We just don't know if N467US had this breaker at hijack time. If it wasn't there, the only other way to disable hydraulic power to the airstair would have been to turn off "B" hydraulics.

I'm inclined right now to think they had to turn the hydraulics off. Reason: Coming into Reno 305 said they needed to make a wide sweeping turn. I haven't checked it, but I don't believe their speed would have been low enough that the bank would have dropped lift enough to put them near stall speed (in a near empty condition). Maybe R99 will check that out.

TO BE CONTINUED

[377 22]

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So far I'm finding it [dropzone.com posting]unbelievably unwieldy. Suggestions?

Just learn to deal with it. There is probably some "skydiver reason" it's set up that way. Maybe it is a safeguard against accidental posts. Kinda like preventing accidental canopy deployments or cutaways.

Modern skydiving gear has the equivalent of the main ripcord handle located behind your back where you can't see it and have to feel for it as you pass through the pull zone into the kill zone. I liked the old big silver main ripcord handle right in front of you and easily found.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Hominid 0]

Thanks 377. Is there a way to automatically go directly back to the place you were in the thread after you post?

[377 22]

If you click on "Click here to view your post" it will take you to it, but there is no way I know of to go back to some earlier page or post without first copying the location.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

Jo what is it with you do you just enjoy lieing all you have to do is read your own past post and take the polygraph test which you will not do because it proves you a lier . Still your the kind of person that wants to destroy a weber family name with lies. How you can sleep at night. I'll never know. However You are destroying your own personal name of, your own family's with, all these lies of yours. and you prove your a lier every day you refuse to take a polygraph test or better yet lets meet at a local TV station and you explain your comments on the tapesand your story changes and lies on this forum. Jerry

[Hominid 0]

So Coop (in the attachment) musta been using a modern skydiving rig?

[georger 244]

Quote

So Coop (in the attachment) musta been using a modern skydiving rig?

once you have hit Post Reply, you will notice a new
page and line appears saying: Click here to view the
post. Clicking that takes you right back to the page
you posted to.

Once back to your post and still logged in you have
the options of: Edit, Delete, Quote, Reply - which
appear above your own post. Simply hit Edit and
this takes you back to your post to make spelling
changes or whatever - I use Edit a lot for my own
posts because its an easy tool to use.

Those are the basic mechanics involved...

I read all of your posts at the other forum so am
laying back waiting ...

No rush. Lay it all out at your own pace ...

[Hominid 0]

Quote

Once back to your post and still logged in you have the options of:

Remember school?

Oooh Oooh (hand raised)

"delete the post or edit it?"

Was that it?

[Hominid 0]

Thanks Georger. I think it best to break it into bits as small as possible so that some may be willing to pay attention long enough to absorb the most important of it. The long tech step-by-step stuff is quite tedious for people who aren't actually interested in tech stuff.

[smokin99 0]

I was re-reading the transcripts the other day and noticed that the crew was told (twice i think) to exit the aircraft from the front and not to touch anything on the aircraft. According to the transcript the pilot stated that they would exit down the back stairs since there were no front steps and they did not want anyone to come out to the plane. They had already made a cursory check and no briefcase was seen.

I wonder why they did this - against recommendation. They were going to wait for transportation at the front of the plane. So.......if transportation was coming out to pick them up anyway, and they were going to wait at the front of the airplane (I'm assuming within reach of any shrapnel that might have hit them had a bomb exploded), what was the point in walking down the back steps against recommendation - possibly contaminating any evidence that might have been left?

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[Hominid 0]

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Welcome Hominid. Can we have some more airstair dialog? In the end, after looking at all the modes for lowering the 727-1** stairs, do you think that the pressure bump was coincident with Cooper's departure?

Thanks gentleman 377. I figured airstairs first. And there's a bit to it.

I think the pressure bump was almost certainly Dan jumping. There is a possibility, however, that it could have occured at some time after he jumped. IF he understood the dynamics he could have used something like a wrapped-up bag of bills, especially with some rope or para cord, to pull a real good jam between an upper stair strut and the stairwell wall. If he did this, the stairs would not have rebounded when he jumped. The jam could have then worked out under vibration, and fallen out down onto the stairs. It would not necessarily have left the plane right then. It could have lain on the stairs until finally getting near enough to an edge and getting blown or sucked away.

[Hominid 0]

If I remember right, the comms were from flight control types. I think the FBI was probably already on the plane up through the back and was almost shoving the crew out.

That is, at that point they were doing what the guys with the guns and dogs were saying to do.

[smokin99 0]

Quote

If I remember right, the comms were from flight control types. I think the FBI was probably already on the plane up through the back and was almost shoving the crew out.

Maybe, though I got the impression that the FBI boarded after they told the tower that they were going to leave out the back. That's the order of appearance in transcripts anyway.

Maybe the FBI coming on board caused them to rethink their exit strategy. I'd still be interested to know how they actually left the plane.

Edited to say that another thing about forums is we often cross-post.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[JerryThomas 0]

Blevins. Just got off the Phone with Ralph, Yesterday was his 86th birthday. Anyway it is confirmed that I will be picking him up and taking him to the conference at the Hilton in portland and then we will both be attending the DB Cooper Days celebration with Geofrey Gray at the Aerial Store. Just thought you would like to know. Jerry

[Robert99 50]

I'm inclined right now to think they had to turn the hydraulics off. Reason: Coming into Reno 305 said they needed to make a wide sweeping turn. I haven't checked it, but I don't believe their speed would have been low enough that the bank would have dropped lift enough to put them near stall speed (in a near empty condition). Maybe R99 will check that out.

[Hominid 0]

Yes, Smokin. And neither was the FBI guy in the tower who was telling the controller what to say. When the guys with the guns are there, ya do what they say. Yeah, you can't tell from the transcript just exactly when the FBI got there. It may have been well before 305 mentioned them. I would think it was within seconds after the plane stopped rolling. Imagine trying to talk to that pesky controller while a guy is shovin you around and yelling and waving a gun.

[Hominid 0]

Gimme a while to digest the info.

About how long I've been a nerd.... First let me say that I did NOT claim to be one of the first. I am sure I was one before the word was invented. I hope I wasn't the first. I think there musta been some before me.

I'm really old, and I've never bothered trying to remember things that just didn't matter to me. And I'm pretty sure it didn't just happen one day. But I'd estimate about 57 years ago.

Sorry. I couldn't calculate it any better.
Oh. I'm sorry. Maybe I shouldn't mention "calculate." Does that get Quade's attention?

[pek771 0]

Hi hominid,
I'm new here also. Do you have any info on how the FBI set up the aft stairs for the sled drop tests, or which of the options did they use? From what I have seen and read (mostly read), either someone is not divulging all of the known information, or I am really dumb (a distinct possibility).

[Hominid 0]

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Hi hominid,
I'm new here also. Do you have any info on how the FBI set up the aft stairs for the sled drop tests, or which of the options did they use? From what I have seen and read (mostly read), either someone is not divulging all of the known information, or I am really dumb (a distinct possibility).

Hi back pek771 & thanks for the nice words re. the earlier post 377 put up.

I have no info about the test other than that little we've all seen. I'm sure you can count on it as fact that a great deal that is known by a few about the case has not gotten outside a small circle. The FBI (and its different parts) have info we don't. NWA corporate had some. Who knows where that's gone? Some of the Air Force likely has info the FBI and NWA doesn't. Feel good about yourself. The case is not out in the open. We can try to find bits that haven't been found. And we can apply microscopes to the little bits we have in hopes of seeing something "they" overlooked when releasing info.

BTW: I think probably some people have info that would be useful and don't even know it.

From how the stairs probably worked, I think they either had not completely repaired when they did the sled drop test, or they made some kind of modification to allow them to let the stairs freefall without hydraulic applied. Knowing what they needed to do, it would have been easy for them to make a temporary mod. They might have just held the stairs up with a rope or cable until after they had done the test.

[smokin99 0]

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Hi hominid,
I'm new here also. Do you have any info on how the FBI set up the aft stairs for the sled drop tests, or which of the options did they use? From what I have seen and read (mostly read), either someone is not divulging all of the known information, or I am really dumb (a distinct possibility).

This might not have as much detail as you want but this was taken from Sluggo’s "NW 305 Hijacking Research Web Site” found here http://n467us.com/ in the Facts and myths section.

"Flight Test Data

On 01/06/1972, NWA, FBI and Air Force personnel flew the 727 used for Flight 305 (N467US) out over the Pacific with two 230 lb sleds. The weight of the sleds was to emulate the weight Cooper would have been when he jumped. (Cooper’s estimated body weight of 180 lb + the 21 lbs of money + weight of the chutes).

Once in the test area the plane was flown with flaps at 15 degrees, wheels down, approximately 150 KIAS. When the aft airstairs were released, they dropped 20 degrees (Photo here.). There was a slight change in cabin pressure indicated by gauges, but not felt by the flight crew.

Air Force Captain Wilson and M/Sgt Saiz individually walked down the airstairs (wearing parachutes) and stood at the bottom. Each reported that the stairs lowered to almost a level position, they were stable, no drag from the wind and they could stand fully upright.

When at the bottom of the stairs the cabin pressure gauge showed significant changes.

They then performed a test by dropping each of the two sleds and in both tests the sleds dropped directly down (dispelling a theory that Cooper would have been slammed up against the tail when he jumped). The moment the sleds cleared the stairs the flight crew felt a popping in their ears and the cabin pressure gauge reacted violently. It was discovered from chase plane photo's, video and reports from Wilson and Saiz that the pressure change was caused by the stairs being forced upward by the airstream after the weight was removed.

Flight Engineer Harold E. Anderson, who was present for the test and served on the flight crew of Flight 305 the night of the hijacking, stated that the pressure bump felt during the test was identical to what was experienced the night of the hijacking"

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[Hominid 0]

I'd have to check, but I think that is the full extent of what I've seen.

Note the speed of 150KIAS rather than 170.

Blevins note the crew didn't feel anything when the stairs were dropped.

My upcoming posts will relate to this info re. the test.

Back in '09, Sluggo posted a bit about the test and included reference to "Document SE164-81 CEF:k1b." For those unfamiliar with such, this is govt kind of reference to things like letters. I don't think anyone asked him what the document was. Could ya chime in Sluggo?

[smokin99 0]

Interesting article. Written by one of Bruce's buddies ( in spirit at least
http://www.groundzeromedia.org/my-life-with-db-cooper/

I know everyone's got their own opinions, but I've always thought that Gossett's resemblance to the composite is the closest of any of the Cooper candidates. I can't recall his physical characteristics at the moment like eye color, etc., but, his resemblance, along with his background, the 180 turn around of his life post military service, etc. would seem to put him towards the top of the contender list.

Wonder when we're gonna see Cook's book?

Edited to say: Oops....I forgot Clyde Lewis is old news. I thought his name sounded familiar so I put him in the forum search.
Oh well....doesn't change my opinion that he's as good a candidate as any.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[JerryThomas 0]

Blevins: Understood about Farflung. However when it comes to KC wouldn't it have been easier to realize that a airline pilot new how to open the rear stairs and could not have been Cooper instead of writing a book about him claiming KC was Cooper. I think a rocket scientist may have figured that out. Jerry