DB Cooper

[skyjack71 0]

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Jo read my post again I edited before your post.As for your letters from Max Gunther. Post them in there intirety.Jerry

I am not supposed to talk to you and you are NOT suppose to talk to me - it is a futile waste of my time and efforts.

My communications with MAX are very private and not entirely about Cooper...they are not for public viewing. Just ask Sluggo if you have not already alienated him as you have me.

You seem to want to make everything public and I am a private person. I have NOT stayed in front of the media and stepped away in 2001 - but, I never gave up my battle. This thread and another one are how I chose to continue my search.
I did NOT come here to tell the story - I came for information about jumping and the thread was productive.

Many folks have made valuable contribution, but NO one wants to read the soap opera that is now going on. Jerry you are not part of the solution. You and others like you are just some of the reasons this case has NOT been solved.

The CASE is CLOSED.
Duane Weber was Dan Cooper.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

Jo wrote

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I sat down beside his bed and he said "I am Dan Cooper". I didn't know who Dan Cooper was and he tried to tell me about jumping out of a plane - he tried for about 15 minutes and realized it was futile

In 15 minutes of trying don't you Duane could have got his point across to you? Why was it futile? All he'd have to say is I hijacked an airliner, got $200,000 in ransom and parachuted out of the plane

Exactly what did he say about jumping out of a plane? 15 minutes of talking is a long time. Give us your best recollection of what was said.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Jumped Saturday. Fantastic weather and gorgeous scenery. There is no better ride on the planet for $20.

Got the sad news that skydive pioneer Ted Strong died test jumping some military ATV airdrop gear. I met Ted a few years ago at a boogie. He kindly and patiently answered a ton of question about skydiving history. Nice guy and a gold mine of historical info. He was one of the few old timers (born in 1936) who was still a very active jumper.

http://blueskiesmag.com/2011/10/15/bsbd-ted-strong/

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

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Jo wrote

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I sat down beside his bed and he said "I am Dan Cooper". I didn't know who Dan Cooper was and he tried to tell me about jumping out of a plane - he tried for about 15 minutes and realized it was futile

Exactly what did he say about jumping out of a plane? 15 minutes of talking is a long time. Give us your best recollection of what was said.

377

I do believe this is the first time ever Jo has "recollected" talk about jumping out a plane.

Ted Strong - v sad news . Never met him but he was a legend of course.

As for the other stuff this thread is going downhill fast again. Bit chillier behind the scenes but need a bit more time to examine that -

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Orange wrote

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I do believe this is the first time ever Jo has "recollected" talk about jumping out a plane.

I thought so too, but wasn't 100 pct certain.

Snow has done some further research on the chutes. It's looking like neither "back parachute" rig had D rings to attach a chest reserve and that both were bailout rigs, one military and one commercial/civilian. There was no Paracommander canopy, just a 28 foot C9 and a 26 foot emergency canopy. Both "back parachutes" had Cossey's lead rigger seal indicating that the canopy inside was TSOd for emergency use.

If all that is correct, then Coopers choice was optimal. A C9 can take a high speed (over 150 mph) deployment and that's what you'd expect to find in a military rig. A civilian bailout rig could contain a chute that was not designed for use at speeds exceeding 150 mph.

He has also found some new photos of the sled test flight. One shows a military jumper riding far down on the stairs. The photo, to me, confirms hominid's model regarding stair angle and relatively calm wind force conditions.

If all the above is true, the rig choices were not as different as commonly thought. There was no sport rig, no Paracommander, no rig that could hold a chest reserve.

Didn't Cossey tell someone (Bruce?) that one canopy was a "Paradise" which I interpretted as a misunderstood voicing of Paracommander or Cossey spoofing.

If there were no D rings then the reserves were useless, even the one with a good canopy. No way to jump them.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[hangdiver 1]

Snow would like this info looked at again...

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where did Braden come from. This might be worth reposting.

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Hankb told us Braden went to college in Ohio.

Hankb said: "His 201 File and Form 20 listed him as having 3 years of college at the University of Toledo " (ohio)

What's nice, is I had posted info from WWII enlistment on a Ted Braden born in the right year, who enlisted in Ohio. So maybe the following info from WWII enlistment is the same Braden. (birth year matches plus Ohio match)

It has his native state as Indiana.

Also, apparently listed "occupation" then: truck driver..At the time, truck driver meant nothing to me, but obviously it's interesting now.

I'm assuming this says he was born in Indiana?
The Der Spiegel said something about WWII.
Wondering if Ted lied about his age, served for a short time, then re-enlisted later for Korea (he said 14 years total military in 1966?)

Name: Ted B Braden
Birth Year: 1925
Race: White, citizen (White)
Nativity State or Country: Indiana
State of Residence: Ohio
County or City: Lucas

Enlistment Date: 28 Jan 1944
Enlistment State: Ohio
Enlistment City: Toledo
Branch: No branch assignment
Branch Code: No branch assignment
Grade: Private
Grade Code: Private
Term of Enlistment: Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law
Component: Selectees (Enlisted Men)
Source: Civil Life

Education: 2 years of high school
Civil Occupation: Semiskilled chauffeurs and drivers, bus, taxi, truck, and tractor
Marital Status: Single, without dependents
Height: 01
Weight: 101


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Update from Snow on info posted above

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Thanks, hangdiver.

maybe you can update your post a little now that I see it again.

I just copied and pasted my old post, but now I notice that he wouldn't have had to lie about his age.

born 1925
enlisted 1944

so that's 19 years old

I don't know why I was thinking lying back on the original post.

also: the Der Spiegel reference was a german article that quoted the Ramparts article. I had used the google translation of it back then, when led me to getting the original Ramparts article.


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I'm happy to pass this on Snow...keep up the "outside the box" thinking...

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[hangdiver 1]

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Got the sad news that skydive pioneer Ted Strong died test jumping some military ATV airdrop gear. I met Ted a few years ago at a boogie. He kindly and patiently answered a ton of question about skydiving history. Nice guy and a gold mine of historical info. He was one of the few old timers (born in 1936) who was still a very active jumper.

That's real sad news 377...my condolences to all...

Also...RIP Dan Wheldon...

BSBD

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[377 22]

Coming in from the cold...

See photo below.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

From Snow

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Look at the agents and crew photo.

the screens on the stairs are torn like with Cooper.

The screens probably tore for them too?

they seemed okay when the military jumper was out there in front of the sled.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

This is apparently an FBI file. P 1 just has a title on it saying Parachutes and is not copied, no relevant content.

Pgs 2 and 3 provide some more detail on the parachutes.

Interestingly, it doesn't say Cossey owned the parachutes, it says that Hayden did and Cossey assembled them.

It also says the "civilian" rig had a military parachute in it (26')

it id's both chutes as white.

It also says Hayden can identify the rigs.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

From Snow:

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Okay, the total amount of info on the rigs is dispersed. Collecting some details:

The rig not taken was a Pioneer type 226 sn 9/57 rig.
Ckret said "Pioneer type 226 sn 9/57 was left on the plane "
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3396594;#3396594

Ckret said it was known to have a deployment sleeve. Not clear how he knew

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3174939;#3174939

but it was not a Paracommander inside it. (how did we all seem to think it was a Paracommander?)

Ckret said way before, that it was a Steinthal model 60-9707, 26' canopy.
That doesn't sound like a "sport chute" ??

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3051365;#3051365

According to Poynter Steinthal (North Carolina) developed a line of sport equipment in 1977. (well after 1971).
It was making military parachutes (under military contract) before that. So the Gray/FBI pdf is probably right.
The Steinthal was a military parachute. (26').

http://books.google.com/books?id=BKTuTXrXQu0C&pg=PA227&lpg=PA227


I'm also thinking now that Bruce's interview that say the rig Cooper took, was a NB-8 (not NB-6) may be right.
The NB-6 comes from a post Ckret made, about the interview of Cossey on 11/26/71

Ckret said:
"In Cossey's statement to the FBI on 11/26/1971, 4th paragraph "...he described the missing back pack parachute as having a sage green nylon container, model NB6 with sage green nylon harness, which harness has no "D" rings to mount a chest pack." "


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3051233;#3051233

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

From Sluggo's website:

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Flight Test Data
On 01/06/1972, NWA, FBI and Air Force personnel flew the 727 used for Flight 305 (N467US) out over the Pacific with two 230 lb sleds. The weight of the sleds was to emulate the weight Cooper would have been when he jumped. (Cooper’s estimated body weight of 180 lb + the 21 lbs of money + weight of the chutes).
Once in the test area the plane was flown with flaps at 15 degrees, wheels down, approximately 150 KIAS. When the aft airstairs were released, they dropped 20 degrees (Photo here.). There was a slight change in cabin pressure indicated by gauges, but not felt by the flight crew.
Air Force Captain Wilson and M/Sgt Saiz individually walked down the airstairs (wearing parachutes) and stood at the bottom. Each reported that the stairs lowered to almost a level position, they were stable, no drag from the wind and they could stand fully upright.
When at the bottom of the stairs the cabin pressure gauge showed significant changes.
They then performed a test by dropping each of the two sleds and in both tests the sleds dropped directly down (dispelling a theory that Cooper would have been slammed up against the tail when he jumped). The moment the sleds cleared the stairs the flight crew felt a popping in their ears and the cabin pressure gauge reacted violently. It was discovered from chase plane photo's, video and reports from Wilson and Saiz that the pressure change was caused by the stairs being forced upward by the airstream after the weight was removed.
Flight Engineer Harold E. Anderson, who was present for the test and served on the flight crew of Flight 305 the night of the hijacking, stated that the pressure bump felt during the test was identical to what was experienced the night of the hijacking.
Authority: Table of Authorities #2

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[pek771 0]

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From Sluggo's website:

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Flight Test Data

Flight Engineer Harold E. Anderson, who was present for the test and served on the flight crew of Flight 305 the night of the hijacking, stated that the pressure bump felt during the test was identical to what was experienced the night of the hijacking.
Authority: Table of Authorities #2

377

The new info preceding this post from 377 is very interesting. How is Gray getting this seemingly new information? (well, it's new to me, anyway)

Regarding the jump, the quoted information attributed to FE Anderson, from the Sluggo site, as posted by 377, seems to be the sole determining factor in when Cooper jumped.

[377 22]

I think Gray was given access to some FBI files that had not been made public before.

Hominid is right, a cabin rate of climb instrument is extremely sensitive to blips in pressure. It responds to rate of change, not steady pressure.

I have one and I can make it jump like crazy by slamming the door in a bedroom with the windows closed.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quade,

Another request to let Snow back. He is adding value and should be given a chance to participate directly rather than by proxy.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

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Quade,

Another request to let Snow back. He is adding value and should be given a chance to participate directly rather than by proxy.

377

+1

(More proxy coming up when I have a few mins to get it together)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[hangdiver 1]

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Quade,

Another request to let Snow back. He is adding value and should be given a chance to participate directly rather than by proxy.

377

+1

(More proxy coming up when I have a few mins to get it together)

+3

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[Orange1 0]

OK, so. This is a combination of an idea planted by Snow and some of my own thoughts. (I know he has had some of this conversation with at least one other here)

...going back to eyewitness testimony. We know this can be flawed, and we also know there are disagreements in the Cooper case already (never mind the sketches - i refer to the suit being described as both dark brown and black, and the shoes being described as both loafers and ankle boots, for example).

One eyewitness saw Cooper's eyes: Flo (according to Jo and I believe elsewhere). I understand this was after he had taken off his sunglasses. Is it possible that his pupils were dilated enough that the eye colour was misjudged? (eg Braden's eyes were blue, but of the blue that has a very dark ring around the outside. Wide pupil against that, and the eye as a whole could easily look dark.)

Was there any description of his sunglasses other than the style? i.e. - were they cheap or expensive?

I know this is a long shot re Braden (though one case of a mistaken eyewitness testimony is certainly easier to swallow than some of the stuff we have been fed here) but the general idea is intriguiing. If the pupils were very dilated, is there a chance the eyes were lighter than commonly thought?

I understand 377 has kaiboshed this idea because pupils constrict again once exposed to light. However this doesn't always happen; could be drugs (though there is no indication Cooper was on drugs) or a medical condition (disease or trauma). There are drugs that are specifically designed just to dilate pupils i.e. this is not as a side effect of getting high (don't know if they were around back then) - see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dilated_pupil.gk.jpg referenced here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mydriasis as being due to one of these. A side effect of this (rather naturally I suppose) is photophobia. Which brings to mind again the question of why Cooper insisted on wearing his sunglasses almost all the time? Disguise? Or intolerance to light? Was the request to have the cabin lights dimmed due to this and not the commonly believed reasons? -either temporary or permanent light sensitivity? (on the offchance this is the case then Braden is out obviously, unless it was temporary or drug-induced.)

Again - I know this is left field. But if you are seriously going to entertain conspiracy theories ranging from the utterly ridiculous to the completely unbelievable, this is very, very tame by comparison.

(I've gone way beyond Snow's suggestions here by the way, so only blame him for planting a seed!) But I still think there is a valid point: with conflicting eyewitness testimony on various other things, we have only witness on the eyes.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Hmmm, just thought of something. I think speedy drugs, like Benzedrine, produce a prolonged dilation of the subject's pupils. There has been speculation that Cooper had some of these pills with him.

Just a thought...

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Hominid 0]

Note that the windscreen in the test pix was blown out only on the left side, whereas both sides were gone in the pic of the stairs at Reno the night of the hijack. There was a pic 19 posted here long, long ago which also had only the left side gone. It must have been from the test also.

The stair rebounding up may well have been what initiated the damage to the windscreens. The air pressure would have tried to blow them out like blowing up a baloon.

I noticed that the uplock rollers are intact in the pix. If they were knocked off in the hijacking, they were put back by the time of the test. Note that they installed 3 guages in the stairwell. Could have been something they needed to control the stairs, or maybe for measurement of things like "bumps."

If anyone ever finds anything from which we could determine the time it took for the stairs to rebound, or rebound and drop back down, I would like to know about that.

Good job, Snow, as usual.

Does anyone have photos of any of the people from which to identify any of those shown in the group foto?

[377 22]

In my early experience as a criminal defense lawyer, I did see cases where witnesses incorrectly described a suspect's eye color, hair color, skin tone, height, weight etc. If the prosecution only had their physical descriptions to rely on for a conviction, the case would have been very weak

In most cases they caught the right guy and obtained physical evidence postively tieing the arrestee to the crime. That evidence usually made the witness mis-descriptions irrelevant.

When people are stressed they make mistakes. Getting eye color wrong isn't out of the question.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Thanks to those of you that attempted to answer my question. I'm not sure there's going to be a precise answer to the question I'm asking, but that's okay.

Skyjack71, you mentioned the undisclosed Rose revision. It was during a discussion in the old thread here at DZ, where some Mayfield people were talking about the Rose sketch and then I posted a previously unreleased version (that is not an official version BTW); I will point out that you can pretty much figure out for yourself which of the witnesses he was trying to accommodate. It's really obvious, send me a PM if you're unsure.

As far as Braden goes, sounds interesting. I made a blind wager here on DZ back in August that I'm bound by, so if someone decides to put up a friendly wager ($5-$1000) I'll be bound to my prior blind agreement that the FBI will not put any past, present, or future suspects on the plane if tested against current evidence.

And I really feel for Quade. The guy has to moderate perhaps the worst cesspool of characters on the net, and he does a bang up job IMO. Having said that, Snow was and is perhaps the biggest contributor of actual thoughtful insights and useful information ITT, ever. I don't participate here, so my opinion shouldn't be worth much, but that's my 2c worth.

Oh, 377, I could write a thesis on eye witness accounts. It goes far beyond stress. Non stressed witnesses can actually have their memories tampered with inadvertently via media reports, police questioning, etc. It's a whole study on its own, which is why when the whole Tina discussion came up, I was both laughing and horrified at the same time. But hey, people do and think what they want.

[377 22]

Hominid wrote

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I noticed that the uplock rollers are intact in the pix. If they were knocked off in the hijacking, they were put back by the time of the test. Note that they installed 3 guages in the stairwell. Could have been something they needed to control the stairs, or maybe for measurement of things like "bumps."

The instruments (3) appear to be a clock, altimeter and rate of climb indicator.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Hominid 0]

Two things I've thought strange about the flight test description. One, nothing about altitude. Two, why 150KIAS when other places have said the actual jump would have been at a bit higher. Could different altitude and temperature have resulted in a TAS that duplicated conditions at jump time? Would think that they would have tried to replicate conditions.

edit: Maybe their main concern was to replicate the dynamic pressure.

[hangdiver 1]

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As far as Braden goes, sounds interesting. I made a blind wager here on DZ back in August that I'm bound by, so if someone decides to put up a friendly wager ($5-$1000) I'll be bound to my prior blind agreement that the FBI will not put any past, present, or future suspects on the plane if tested against current evidence.

So...are you saying that because of eye color the FBI will not consider a suspect with a different eye color...???

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan