DB Cooper

[BruceSmith 3]

Bruce just to be explicit:

Recall Ckret did interview Cossey. Ckret posted
the basics of his interview here, so do a search and
if you dont find it I will dredge it up for you. Just so
you know Larry did interview Cossey, which I assume
you already know ..... to say it again ... good luck.

[Orange1 0]

Interesting to hear Carr was argumentative with you...the tone of his posts here was almost always good-natured as you say, even continuing to be unfailingly polite while Jo poured vitriol and anger at him, even as he went out of his way to address her questions, arrange DNA and fingerprint tests for weber, etc. Of course the only source of her anger was that nothing indicated weber was Cooper. I believe Jo is the only poster who is happy that he is no longer posting.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[pek771 0]

Bruce, the point of my prior post was that there seems to be ambiguous information from Cossey. This is because Gray seemingly has dredged up "previously unreleased" information regarding Cossey's original statements. I may certainly be wrong about this, but there seems to be no public knowledge of exactly what Cossey told the FBI in his first interview.

[sailshaw 0]

377: The ownership by two people could of resulted if Cossey sold the two chutes to the provider. They could both claim ownership at one time or the other. Cossey said he was dealing in selling jump gear, so it all fits. Would Sheridan have known about the two back chutes when he was getting his Instructor certification at Issaquah Sky Sports and knew which chute was the best choice? I wish Cossey would tell us if he remembers Sheridan at Issaquah and if he thinks Sheridan could have done the caper.

Bob

[Orange1 0]

Remind me: did Cossey actually say he owned the chutes? I remember seeing words like "provided" and "supplied", which may just mean that he was in possession of them at the time the call came.

Can someone also fill me in on why this is so important? Is it just a case of wanting to verify a fact, or does it somehow make a material difference to the case? (I understand the point that if they were to act as a bailout rig for a pilot this brings the hard pull into question, although a simple explanation to the pilot and maybe even a pull on the ground to ensure he could do it would suffice.)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[pek771 0]

It is really not important to the overall case. It has provided countless numbers of posts on this forum regarding the specifics of the chutes.

It is important, IMO, that this information is being rehashed due to stuff Gray seems to have sole access to. It seems that lately, many "new" things have appeared right around the time Gray's book has come out...such as the parachutes, Marla Cooper, previously unheard of FBI material...Gray is either a well connected researcher, or a very clever marketer. Speaking of which, how are his book sales?

[377 22]

Quote

377: The ownership by two people could of resulted if Cossey sold the two chutes to the provider. They could both claim ownership at one time or the other. Cossey said he was dealing in selling jump gear, so it all fits. Would Sheridan have known about the two back chutes when he was getting his Instructor certification at Issaquah Sky Sports and knew which chute was the best choice? I wish Cossey would tell us if he remembers Sheridan at Issaquah and if he thinks Sheridan could have done the caper.

Bob

I don't think Sheridan would know anything about these two "back chutes" as they were not skydiving rigs. Skydivers, even instructors, have little interest in pilot bailout rigs. Still, if Sheridan was Cooper, he'd know that between the 2 main rigs on the plane the military bailout rig was by far the better choice as it very likely had a C9 high speed canopy in it. Remember Coopers aircraft flight configuration demands had two goals, low and slow. Low to avoid hypoxia and loss of consciousness and slow to get a reasonably stable exit and safe chute deployment. Skydivers knew that most sport and non military emergency canopies were placarded for deployment at speeds below 150 mph. A 727 would likely be flying a bit faster. Why not take the stronger chute?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

Hayden says his two chutes were identical. We will soon know more about all of that.

Hayden was a civilian acro pilot. Those types rarely know the fine details of their parachute gear. Today they make square and round emergency chutes for civilian use. An acro pilot would know if he had a square or round but that's about as deep as they normally dig.

Ownership isn't so important but truthfulness is. I don't think there is any chance that the military rig had a nearly impossibly hard pull. No rigger would configure an emergency rig that way for a customer. The hard pull story pushes an agenda: Cooper never deployed and went in at terminal velocity.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

http://webdetail.org/www.dropzone.com

If Snow bought dropzone.com, would he ban Quade?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Here is rare look into the diabolical inner workings of the Snowmman research engine:

Quote

Gray inadvertently leaked the FBI file.

He's now discovered how he accidently leaked it, and removed access.

He did not leak it at his site which is http://huntfordbcooper.com
If you look in the thread, the links posted were not to that site.

I gave Bruce a post which explained how the leak happened. To understand the leak, you have to have read many other pages to understand what was going on.

Here is my summmary. It's detailed but good to get down for the record.

ps. Geoffrey's attempt to plug the leak didn't work, since he just added password protection to the leak at

http://myprojectstatus.net/skyjack/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DOCU_parachutes1.pdf

Gray is too stupid to realize that Google has cached it now (for a little while) at
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:YbDrD6D53jIJ:myprojectstatus.net/skyjack/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DOCU_parachutes1.pdf+DOCU_parachutes1.pd&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiXEJbDKG4OgH8U7bv0de2y8RPzxEUeRMBH0yyXIRMiA58zrLRs1gVqAumJUfKZDlryh3vlKoSuGcBhLWb3S4OEqXCAFT9WuIi3kO_OWKfrLwpkJ0f8eMFhEPklLOxSXzBIYLUv&sig=AHIEtbRd_L3uYLoJIu_0-xJQEtJCUGtYFQ

also, we all have a copy of DOCU_parachutes1.pdf

Watergate coverups never work.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Hominid 0]

Luv it. A "Snowmman summmary."

Quote

Here is my summmary.

Hope ya'll appreciate the work I had to go to scrollin all the way to the right to punch "post."

[smokin99 0]

Quote

Here is rare look into the diabolical inner workings of the Snowmman research engine:

Quote

Gray inadvertently leaked the FBI file.

He's now discovered how he accidently leaked it, and removed access.

He did not leak it at his site which is http://huntfordbcooper.com
If you look in the thread, the links posted were not to that site.

I gave Bruce a post which explained how the leak happened. To understand the leak, you have to have read many other pages to understand what was going on.

Here is my summmary. It's detailed but good to get down for the record.

ps. Geoffrey's attempt to plug the leak didn't work, since he just added password protection to the leak at

http://myprojectstatus.net/skyjack/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DOCU_parachutes1.pdf

Gray is too stupid to realize that Google has cached it now (for a little while) at
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:YbDrD6D53jIJ:myprojectstatus.net/skyjack/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DOCU_parachutes1.pdf+DOCU_parachutes1.pd&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiXEJbDKG4OgH8U7bv0de2y8RPzxEUeRMBH0yyXIRMiA58zrLRs1gVqAumJUfKZDlryh3vlKoSuGcBhLWb3S4OEqXCAFT9WuIi3kO_OWKfrLwpkJ0f8eMFhEPklLOxSXzBIYLUv&sig=AHIEtbRd_L3uYLoJIu_0-xJQEtJCUGtYFQ

also, we all have a copy of DOCU_parachutes1.pdf

Watergate coverups never work.

377

Not that it matters, but for accuracy......If you're talking about the link that I posted to the parachute pdf, actually the "leak/link" was originally accessed from his Hunt for DB Cooper site. At the end of one of his archived posts ( I think about the parachutes) there was a hyperlink button entitled "Read File" which took you to his "myprojectstatus" page with the pdf. That is why I included both urls in the post - the original url where I accessed the pdf link, as well as the pdf url - -- to give credit where credit was due.... (oops).

Edited to say -- at least that was my intent. Looks like I inadvertently posted the main project status page url instead of his the Hunt for DB site. Anyway...fwiw...doesn't change the fact that the pdf link was originally on the Hunt for DB Cooper site. Don't want anyone to think that I've been hacking someone's website.
Interestingly...he also had an article about the witness statements -- which also had a read file link -- Naturally I was hoping to see a pdf document of the debriefing, but that link took me to the same parachute pdf document.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[377 22]

I don't think Geoff is stupid BTW
I am just the messenger.

Quote

Okay, here's where it comes from 

If you have Windows, you can right click on the pdf file and select "Properties" 

You get a window with tabs at the top. 
if you select "PDF" 
you see "Author:" is "geoffrey gray" 
"Title:" is "ControlCenter2" 
I think that title is just the default for an Apple Mac thing. 
under 
"PDF Producer:" it says "Mac OS X 10.5.8 Quartz PDFContext" 

this tells you that Geoffrey Gray's Mac was running Mac OS X 10.5.8 when he created this file. Quartz may be a graphics layer pdf generation uses. 

You can send G. Gray email and ask him: is your Mac running OS X 10.5.8? 

He may be surprised that you know he runs a Mac. 

Now I could have inserted those fields myself. I have a tool. But I didn't. 

So where did I get the file. 

Well look at Gray's website for his book 

http://huntfordbcooper.com 

A separate question would be "How did I find the picture of the flight test crew on his site, since it's not on this flight test page: 

http://huntfordbcooper.com/the-aerial-test 

:) 

but ignore that for now. 

When Gray was putting his new web site together in April, he used a tool or process that created a "test" site. 

The "test" site was left online. 

On the "test" site, he was experimenting with having files being available. I suspect he realized he couldn't release FBI files that hadn't been released before. So his real web site doesn't have the link to the file when he talks about chutes 

Plus you know Hayden is right, correct? So you talked to someone that corroborates the document. 

But here's the web page of the test web site that led me to find it. 

http://myprojectstatus.net/skyjack/ 

looks familiar huh? It only had posts from 4/6/11 to 4/18/11, not the newer ones like the real web site. 

Note the "read the files" box on the page. You can click on it. 
it has a link to a file. On the tie page, he has a bogus "read hte files"..it's a random school closing notice, around where he lives I think. 

But on the home page, the "read the file" points to the parachute file. 

you can download it from there, and see it's the same file with the same authorship from geoffrey gray. 
i.e. 

http://myprojectstatus.net/skyjack/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DOCU_parachutes1.pdf

So: I'm all for drama, and it's more dramatic to keep it unknown how I found the file. But that's how I found it. And I think the circumstances say it's real, and traceable back to G. Gray. 

You can just print the file and show it to G. Gray and ask him if he recognizes it, at the symposium. 

But better to let him think I got it off his laptop somehow. 

So: the lesson is "Snowmman reads the entire internet, every night". 

The internet is a dynamic thing. Content comes and goes. always changing. That's why it's important to always save any good info you find. Not just the link to it. 

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[smokin99 0]

Quote

I don't think Geoff is stupid BTW
I am just the messenger.

Quote

Okay, here's where it comes from 

If you have Windows, you can right click on the pdf file and select "Properties" 

You get a window with tabs at the top. 
if you select "PDF" 
you see "Author:" is "geoffrey gray" 
"Title:" is "ControlCenter2" 
I think that title is just the default for an Apple Mac thing. 
under 
"PDF Producer:" it says "Mac OS X 10.5.8 Quartz PDFContext" 

this tells you that Geoffrey Gray's Mac was running Mac OS X 10.5.8 when he created this file. Quartz may be a graphics layer pdf generation uses. 

You can send G. Gray email and ask him: is your Mac running OS X 10.5.8? 

He may be surprised that you know he runs a Mac. 

Now I could have inserted those fields myself. I have a tool. But I didn't. 

So where did I get the file. 

Well look at Gray's website for his book 

http://huntfordbcooper.com 

A separate question would be "How did I find the picture of the flight test crew on his site, since it's not on this flight test page: 

http://huntfordbcooper.com/the-aerial-test 

:) 

but ignore that for now. 

When Gray was putting his new web site together in April, he used a tool or process that created a "test" site. 

The "test" site was left online. 

On the "test" site, he was experimenting with having files being available. I suspect he realized he couldn't release FBI files that hadn't been released before. So his real web site doesn't have the link to the file when he talks about chutes 

Plus you know Hayden is right, correct? So you talked to someone that corroborates the document. 

But here's the web page of the test web site that led me to find it. 

http://myprojectstatus.net/skyjack/ 

looks familiar huh? It only had posts from 4/6/11 to 4/18/11, not the newer ones like the real web site. 

Note the "read the files" box on the page. You can click on it. 
it has a link to a file. On the tie page, he has a bogus "read hte files"..it's a random school closing notice, around where he lives I think. 

But on the home page, the "read the file" points to the parachute file. 

you can download it from there, and see it's the same file with the same authorship from geoffrey gray. 
i.e. 

http://myprojectstatus.net/skyjack/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DOCU_parachutes1.pdf

So: I'm all for drama, and it's more dramatic to keep it unknown how I found the file. But that's how I found it. And I think the circumstances say it's real, and traceable back to G. Gray. 

You can just print the file and show it to G. Gray and ask him if he recognizes it, at the symposium. 

But better to let him think I got it off his laptop somehow. 

So: the lesson is "Snowmman reads the entire internet, every night". 

The internet is a dynamic thing. Content comes and goes. always changing. That's why it's important to always save any good info you find. Not just the link to it. 

377

Yeah I've done that with websites before. That's why I thought the pdf might be on his "work" site - and why I checked the address from the original site.
Course its not inconceivable that I could have had both sites up and made a mistake -- otherwise I would've sworn that the address with the pdf link was his published Hunt for DB site. Doesn't make me stupid either-- or a liar. (btw,,,Thanks for the pm Snow, but I really don't need em) .
Maybe when you guys channel Snow you could edit out his penchant for abuse...like calling people stupid....doesn't take away from the actual info. Just a suggestion.

Oh well....life goes on......

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[JerryThomas 0]

Welcome back guys. Jerry

[377 22]

Snow writes:

smokin99 said the file was on gray's book home page. I said no. I was wrong.

I had said it wasn't since no page on his web site linked to anything that had the file.
I just discovered I was wrong. It's there, just not linked to by any page.

I was talking to 377, explaining how the world works, sun revolves around the planets, etc and I discovered that Gray has files where he doesn't know he has files.

And where I don't know he has files.

I will not call Gray stupid, because I am reformed, and everyone knows Gray is a good guy.

So Gray is publishing the file he tried to hide before when he added a password to the other site.

here it is.

http://huntfordbcooper.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DOCU_parachutes.pdf

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[smokin99 0]

Quote

Well, everyone has either seen the document
or downloaded it by now, or probably both.

I have some questions about it.

It isn't signed, although there are the
standard business letter initials.
Why isn't it signed by someone?

The stamps/seals on it cannot be read,
even though the text of the letter looks
fairly sharp.

There is no source on the document.

Who's initials are JSD:klb?
JSD is the creator of the letter.
klb is the typist.

What does the document number
SE - 164 -81 mean?

Until at least some of these questions
are answered, the legitimacy of the
document remains in doubt.

Note: The old SU-3 phone prefix
may be valid. It sounds familiar,
the old SUnset prefix out of Renton
or the general Seattle area.

I think, but only a guess, that SE- 164-81 is designation for Seattle office. I also think it is part of a larger document (see pg numbers). Do they customarily stamp each page or just the cover page?

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[skyjack71 0]

Some one before us
made a CODE error
and until they FIX it
we are Stuck on LONG
Lines. QUADE - HELP.
It started with a post
by Georger I think.

Have read through
looking for the Code
Error.

Some one contact
QUADE for help - it
it was done more than
4 hours ago - the person
cannot correct it by
himself.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 244]

Quote

Some one before us
made a CODE error
and until they FIX it
we are Stuck on LONG
Lines. QUADE - HELP.
It started with a post
by Georger I think.

Have read through
looking for the Code
Error.

Some one contact
QUADE for help - it
it was done more than
4 hours ago - the person
cannot correct it by
himself.

It started at the top of this page
#1117. I havent been here or logged
in or posted today until just now - so it
cant be me.

It was Cossey!

[smokin99 0]

Quote

It started at the top of this page
#1117. I havent been here or logged
in or posted today until just now - so it
cant be me.

It was Cossey!

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[skyjack71 0]

THINK I found the
error. IN THE HEADING
OF JERRY T'S
POST. He tried
to change the title
and the Bracket is
there.

JT. Go to edit:
In the heading
back space and
delete. Just back
space the heading and put
in what heading you want.
I think this might fix the
page so we can read. Other
wise we are stuck until
Quade gets in.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[smokin99 0]

Quote

Snow writes:

smokin99 said the file was on gray's book home page. I said no. I was wrong.

I had said it wasn't since no page on his web site linked to anything that had the file.
I just discovered I was wrong. It's there, just not linked to by any page.

I was talking to 377, explaining how the world works, sun revolves around the planets, etc and I discovered that Gray has files where he doesn't know he has files.

And where I don't know he has files.

I will not call Gray stupid, because I am reformed, and everyone knows Gray is a good guy.

So Gray is publishing the file he tried to hide before when he added a password to the other site.

here it is.

http://huntfordbcooper.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DOCU_parachutes.pdf

Thanks. Like i told Snow I definitely make mistakes but i don't intentionally mislead. I accepted his apology and offered mine for my response to his 377 post and a pm. All's well on the Eastern front.
So...while perusing the above link I found this. I'm assuming this is okay to post since he left it out there. If not, well oops again.

http://huntfordbcooper.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DOCU_sr71.pdf

Gray wrote about the SR-71. Guess this is where he got it from. This memo is why I think the SE 164-81 is referring to the Seattle office. Note that the FBI Director designation on this memo is 164-2111. When I mentioned the location designation SE 164-81 to Snow, he reminded me that BUR 164-2111 and SE 164-81 are also seen on the composite drawings. My guess is that BUR = Bureau.

Edited to say looks like more than one memo - note dates.

Question: why are memos being sent to Minneapolis office too? Could it be because Northwest was based there or other reason?

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[sailshaw 0]

Orange1: I agree with you there is too much talk about the chutes other than what DB chose and why. We all thought he had a choice of a Paracomander sports chute or a military round chute. Now, we find that the two chutes were very similar and both were round chutes. The choice was being used to show that DB was not a skilled skydiver and now that is not a possible question.
Bob[email]

[smokin99 0]

Not going back to look, but I have no doubt this site has been linked here before. Worth repeating.
Off topic to DB specifically (as far as i know now ), but lots of interesting stuff on this site for anyone interested in mil history, specifically parachuting in combat. I thought these two articles were interesting. Historical archives section has some cool reads.

Main site:
http://www.517prct.org/documents.htm

Article (longer read):
http://www.517prct.org/documents/odyssey/odyssey_history.htm
In the first part re: Camp Toccoa - some interesting tidbits on soldier selection for this unit. Not saying who but kind of reminds me of stories we've heard in the past.
I admit I get bogged down in the mil maneuvering stuff, but, if you can make it through the whole thing, is a good read.

Article (don't know why, sure it wasn't meant to be humorous, but this one made me smile):
http://www.517prct.org/documents/selection_of_the_parachutist.pdf

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[smokin99 0]

Quote

Quote

Smokin' 99 asks:

***'Question: why are memos
being sent to Minneapolis office too?
Could it be because Northwest was
based there or other reason?'

There is an FBI office in Minneapolis. And yes,
it could be because the hijacked airline was
headquartered there.

I guess I asked for that.
Okay - my actual question should have been - does anyone have any other reasonable assumptions for why these memos would also be sent to the FBI office in Minneapolis? (other than the assumption because Northwest was based there ETA: and the SR-71 flight is based on NW dropzone projections)

And does anyone other than me think it is interesting that Portland wasn't copied? Not like conspiracy interesting, but maybe an insight into politics or bureaucratic idiosyncrasies? Or was Portland not considered a player ETA: in the aftermath? Gets confusing. Guess i have to go back and read to refresh the memory.


lol...thought these two different slants on the Cooper story was interesting. History and history revised?

http://www.fbi.gov/portland/about-us/history-1/history

http://www.fbi.gov/seattle/about-us/history-1/history

Okay I gotta get up and go outside. Been on this computer way too long.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill