Robert99 50 #26926 October 27, 2011 Quote 377 says in part: Quote 'Earhart probably ran out of fuel chasing shadows. She was an incompetent radio operator and screwed up a few opportunities for the Itasca to get DF bearings on her...' She left her trailing wire antenna behind, which would probably have enabled her to reach all the way to San Francisco. That was a mistake. No rubber boat is another. Still, there's no telling for sure if she didn't find someplace to put down before the fuel ran out. I'll admit there were better pilots than Earhart. Her pancake landing in Hawaii showed that. But with two sets of eyes searching for land and one of them a navigator, it is possible. Earhart was somewhere close to Howland Island when she made her last transmission that "we must be upon you" and her fuel exhaustion time was just minutes later. If they had had enough fuel to fly another two hours, they would have found Howland in all probability. Amelia would even had time to learn how to do a DF steer properly, something that was required of private pilots up to about 1970. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BFowl 0 #26927 October 27, 2011 Hi georger, I understand you're a member of knowledge on Cooper. I'm new here, so I'm sure it's been asked before, but I have to try and understand why Tina Mucklow is so silent on this issue. What's your take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #26928 October 27, 2011 QuoteHi georger, I understand you're a member of knowledge on Cooper. I'm new here, so I'm sure it's been asked before, but I have to try and understand why Tina Mucklow is so silent on this issue. What's your take? Quote I'm all ears, G. (Smile). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #26929 October 27, 2011 QuoteHi georger, I understand you're a member of knowledge on Cooper. I'm new here, so I'm sure it's been asked before, but I have to try and understand why Tina Mucklow is so silent on this issue. What's your take? She wants her privacy. A normal life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hangdiver 1 #26930 October 27, 2011 QuoteHi georger, I understand you're a member of knowledge on Cooper. I'm new here, so I'm sure it's been asked before, but I have to try and understand why Tina Mucklow is so silent on this issue. What's your take? You might start by reading 1121 pages to catch up not to mention the first thread that was locked. here's the link to the locked thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2540834;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; ETA: Also numerous books and Sluggo's website: http://n467us.com/ hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #26931 October 27, 2011 I'd like to take credit for this, but it was Snow. Imagine Norman actually was DBC and was having the last laugh on Bruce in this photo below, recreating his 727 stair exit.http://themountainnewswa.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/dbc-parachutes-hayden-clowning-16.jpg It's far more Norjack specific than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hangdiver 1 #26932 October 27, 2011 Quote I'd like to take credit for this, but it was Snow. Imagine Norman actually was DBC and was having the last laugh on Bruce in this photo below, recreating his 727 stair exit.http://themountainnewswa.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/dbc-parachutes-hayden-clowning-16.jpg It's far more Norjack specific than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase. 377 I believe there is at least one thing we can all agree on...that someone did it... and...I say believe because I don't know for sure if there isn't someone that thinks he never existed. hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #26933 October 27, 2011 hangdiver wrote:QuoteI believe there is at least one thing we can all agree on...that someone did it... There are still some who think DBC never existed. They think the crew faked the whole thing and split the loot. Some think that's why Tina became a recluse. I think DBC was real and that his ID will be discovered in my lifetime. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pek771 0 #26934 October 28, 2011 QuoteI think DBC was real and that his ID will be discovered in my lifetime. 377 I read most of the many pages as was suggested. There are very few facts, no prints, no DNA. Raleigh butts are missing. The only evidence is some money dredged up in the Columbia. It really could have been anyone. Providing no "new" old evidence shows up, the only thing that will satisfy the masses curiosity is some more of the money. Just one twenty will do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #26935 October 28, 2011 Don't forget the tie and DNA. The FBI is confident that it is Coopers DNA. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hangdiver 1 #26936 October 28, 2011 QuoteDon't forget the tie and DNA. The FBI is confident that it is Coopers DNA. 377 The other rigs went somewhere as well...if they actually existed...how can someone find the placard and not the rigs and briefcase...??? eta: a small amount of money was found as well...why was all the small stuff found and nothing bigger than a couple bundles of bills...??? Now don't judge me...I like to think outside the box...I don't live there..I just step outside to check the weather once in a while. "Question Everything" hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #26937 October 28, 2011 Greetings All, I have received many questions about Earl Cossey, Norman Hayden and the parachutes, and I've taken them - along with the copious facts and perspectives shared - to come up with a sizeable addendum to the Mountain News article on the parachute issue. You can go to the Mountain News, as clicky-linked a few posts back, and read the piece replete with the addendum, or simply peruse the addendum posted below in full: **************************** Parachutes Cossey snippet, 10.26.11 Seeking answers, the Mountain News has spoken several times with both Mr. Cossey and Mr. Hayden. Mr. Cossey emphatically claims that the two back parachutes in question are his. Cossey described the two chutes as being different, and specifically stated that the chute DB Cooper actually selected was a military, sage-green nylon, 28-foot round canopy that was placed inside a container known as an NB 8, which is a designation for a Navy Backpack pilot’s emergency rig. Apparently, navy pilots did not wear emergency reserve, “front,” chutes and only relied on the one, main chute if they had to bail out. Cossey said that the second chute, the one not chosen by Cooper, was known as a “Pioneer” because the container was manufactured by a firm named Pioneer, and had been designed for use by acrobatic pilots. As such, it had padded shoulder and leg straps and also contained a “sleeve” over the canopy that would deploy first and thus slow down the opening of the main chute and therefore lessen the shock when it did fully open. On multiple occasions, Cossey has characterized the NB 8 rig as a “broken-down VW” and the not-taken parachute rig as a “Cadillac.” In addition, Cossey has referred to the second parachute as a “sports chute,” explaining that he does so because the Pioneer container was of a type that often housed parachutes that could be steered in a modern fashion, whereas the 28-foot canopy in the NB 8 - possibly a military surplus C-9 round canopy - had no capacity for steering. This somewhat off-hand expression by Cossey, referring to the not-used parachute as a “sport chute,” may have resulted in sowing some confusion into the investigation. In the 1971 era there were sports chutes available, including a popular round canopy called a Paracommander. As sporty and steerable as they were back in the day, Paracommanders are now superseded by today’s rectangular dual-surface, ram-air parachutes that are eminently steerable and can be flared, such that the landings are usually on target and as gentle as stepping off a bus. As a result, this advanced level of parachute technology distorts the image of the actual 1971-era sports chute capabilities in the mind of some Cooper investigators and journalists. Nevertheless, Cooper-era Paracommanders did offer a measure of true steer-ablity. They had numerous vent openings cut into the panels to give the canopy forward motion and they could be given directionality by using steering lines that selectively closed certain vents to rotate the canopy. The forward motion combined with the ability to rotate the canopy allowed it to be maneuvered much like a glider. It has been widely assumed, particularly in the media and among some investigators that Cooper’s not-used “sport” chute was a Paracommander, and thus arguably a better choice for jumping over forested mountainous terrain since it could be steered into a clear area for landing. Nevertheless, Cooper-era Paracommanders offered a measure of true steer-ablity. They had numerous vent openings cut into the panels to give the canopy forward motion and they could be given directionality by using steering lines that selectively closed certain vents to rotate the canopy. The forward motion combined with the ability to rotate the canopy allowed it to be maneuvered much like a glider. It appears that it has been widely assumed, particularly in the media and among some investigators that Cooper’s not-used “sport” chute was a Paracommander, and thus arguably a better choice for jumping over forested mountainous terrain since it could be steered into a clear area for landing. However, in our last conversation on this subject a couple of weeks ago, Cossey stated definitively that the not-used parachute was not a Paracommander and was simply a round military chute designed for pilots. Further, Mr. Cossey has never told me the size of the canopy on the not-taken parachute, and whether it is a 26-foot conical as the FBI claims, has not been clarified to my knowledge. In addition, Cossey, who owned and operated a parachute supply company and also packed parachutes professionally - including the ones he says went to Cooper - told me that he had made a modification to the NB 8 rig for reasons he did not elaborate upon, simply saying that he had altered the location of the ripcord. Because of this ripcord modification and the nature of the sleeveless parachute Cossey said the 28-foot round military canopy contained within the NB 8 was hard to deploy, and it delivered a harsher opening than would be experienced by a jumper using the other rig. For these reasons he concluded that Cooper chose an inferior parachute in comparison to the one he left behind on the airplane. Since DB Cooper did not select the so-called superior parachute, Cossey feels that Cooper was not a highly skilled parachutist, an attitude that is now embraced by the FBI. It is not known how much influence Mr. Cossey’s views had on the FBI, but Cossey freely voices his opinions about DB Cooper. “He didn’t make it,” Cossey said, which is the perspective generally voiced by the FBI. “By not choosing the sports chute, DB Cooper showed his limited knowledge of skydiving,” Cossey continued. Cossey cites Cooper’s inexperience and the hard-pull from the ripcord as leading to Cooper being a “no-pull,” which concluded with Cooper cratering somewhere in the woods of southwestern Washington state. “I don’t believe he pulled the ripcord,” Cossey told me in 2009. However, Cossey’s comparative assessment of these parachutes is not shared by all skydivers, most notably a jumper known as “377,” who is found on the parachuting website called “DropZone.” 377 says that if the NB 8 contained a 28-foot C-9 type canopy, which is designed to withstand high-speed jet ejection openings, it would have been an optimum choice for an exit from a 727. If the rig not taken had a 26-foot Navy conical canopy, it too, would have been able to withstand a high-speed opening. However, if the canopy in the Pioneer rig was a commercial type rather than military one, then it might have been designed for opening speeds below 150 mph, which would be significantly lower than Flight 305’s estimated speed of 170-180 mph. Unless Cooper read the packing cards he wouldn't know what canopies were packed in the NB 8 and Pioneer rigs. Since a commercial unit such as the Pioneer might have a commercial low-speed emergency canopy packed inside, the military NB 8 would have been the better choice as it was more likely to have a military canopy packed inside, such as the C-9. In speaking with 377, who started jumping in 1968 and is still active, he said he had jumped all three types of canopies, the 28-foot C-9, the 26-foot Navy conical, and a number of 26-28-foot, low-speed commercial canopies. His personal choice for the Cooper jump would have been the C-9, but the Navy conical would have been a very close second if it was available and identifiable. 377 also said that many C-9s and Navy conicals had been modified before 1971 with a system called a "four-line release," which allowed military aircrew - and sport jumpers using them as reserves - to release four key suspension lines after opening, which would give a moderate forward speed to the canopy and allow steering by pulling on marked suspension lines or using differential riser pulls. 377 ended our conversation by stating, "I'm not saying I know more than Cossey - after all he is an experienced FAA-licensed rigger and I am not - but I think given the situation and the limited amount of information Cooper may have had about the Pioneer rig and its contents, he chose the right rig for the jump when he put on the NB 8." Whether the NB 8 had a C-9 inside remains for Mr. Cossey to tell us, or the FBI, but so far this information has not been made available publicly. Along those lines, the transport of the parachutes to Sea-Tac airport is also murky, and it has been widely reported that Cossey put them in a taxi and they went first to Boeing Field in Renton, and then on to Sea-Tac by private car. Why the chutes made such a circuitous route to the hijacking has not been explained in sources that are generally available, and recent attempts to clarify this matter with Mr. Cossey have been unsuccessful. (Note: I first contacted Earl Cossey, who prefers being called “Coss,” in March, 2009. At that time, I was new to the DB Cooper story and I called Coss to learn more about his famous parachutes and to discuss the then-hot topic of the Amboy, WA parachute that was widely rumored to be DB Cooper’s getaway rig. However, I apparently misunderstood or misinterpreted some of what Coss told me. As a result, I have grossly mis-represented his perspective – and the facts - on how sporty the not-used chute actually is. I also mis-characterized other related issues, such as Coss placing the Cooper chute into a smaller, NB 6 container although that action has been attributed to Mr. Cossey by the former FBI Cooper case agent, Larry Carr. In addition, I have incorrectly described the Cooper chute as one used by Coss for his own personal recreational skydiving. I profoundly apologize to Coss for these inaccuracies, and I hope that our once-robust professional relationship may be restored in the near future.) As for the controversy, Coss states definitively that he owned the two parachutes and says that he has never heard of Norman Hayden, apparently not recalling when he signed the rigging card for Norman in May, 1971. However, that transaction may have occurred with no direct contact between the two men. Continuing, when I told Coss that Mr. Hayden is claiming ownership of the two back parachutes, Cossey replied, “He’s full of s**t.” Further, when I informed Coss that FBI documents indicate that Mr. Hayden is the owner of the parachutes, the rigger retorted, “Well, Northwest Airlines paid me for the chutes; so that should tell ya something!” As for what Norman Hayden has to say on the subject, I traveled to see him at his shop in Kent, Washington, on Monday, October 24, 2011, and upon the advice of many in the skydiving world I invited Bruce Thun to accompany me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #26938 October 28, 2011 Quote I'd like to take credit for this, but it was Snow. Imagine Norman actually was DBC and was having the last laugh on Bruce in this photo below, recreating his 727 stair exit.http://themountainnewswa.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/dbc-parachutes-hayden-clowning-16.jpg It's far more Norjack specific than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase. 377 GUYS! The Vortex is strong. Please be careful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #26939 October 28, 2011 QuoteDon't forget the tie and DNA. The FBI is confident that it is Coopers DNA. 377 Quote Actually, 377, the FBI is not confident that the DNA is Cooper's. Carr was quite specific on that point in our one conversation. Also, the fingerprints are suspect. SAC Calame says they are worthless, and Larry said the Bureau had no assurance that any of the 60 prints was DBC. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #26940 October 28, 2011 Bruce, Please let me amplify on a couple of matters. At the time Cooper jumped, the airliner was in steady level flight at 10,000 feet and had a true airspeed of about 225 MPH. The last I heard, the FAA described a "low speed" civilian parachute as being good to 150 MPH and a "high speed" civilian parachute as being good to 160 MPH. 377 is correct in saying that the military parachute would have been the better choice for this jump. Whatever it was, it was probably good for about 200 MPH. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #26941 October 28, 2011 Quote Actually, 377, the FBI is not confident that the DNA is Cooper's. Carr was quite specific on that point in our one conversation. Also, the fingerprints are suspect. SAC Calame says they are worthless, and Larry said the Bureau had no assurance that any of the 60 prints was DBC. Nevertheless...if a print matches one of the ones on the plane, or if DNA cannot be excluded from the samples on the tie, it would be a stronger link than anything we've seen yet.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #26942 October 28, 2011 QuoteBruce, Please let me amplify on a couple of matters. At the time Cooper jumped, the airliner was in steady level flight at 10,000 feet and had a true airspeed of about 225 MPH. Quote Okay, Robert, I'll recheck my notes, but I've read in numerous places, if I can rememebr accurately, that 305 was going no faster than 200 km/hr, which would put it about 175 mph, no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #26943 October 28, 2011 Nevertheless...if a print matches one of the ones on the plane, or if DNA cannot be excluded from the samples on the tie, it would be a stronger link than anything we've seen yet. Yup. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #26944 October 28, 2011 Robert99, The C9 was successfully tested at speeds far exceeding 200 mph. I remember seeing movie footage shot at very high frame rates back in the 1980s. the camera was mounted on a payload and shot up towards the deploying canopy. I saw the film when I worked for an aerospace company doing military contracting. I've tried to find it on the Internet but no luck. Snow could probably find it. It's not a trivial thing to exceed a 150 mph limit by 33% on a sport or commercial canopy. The energy goes up as the square of velocity. 200 mph gives nearly double the energy of the same object going 150 mph. Rrrrriiiiipppp. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #26945 October 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteBruce, Please let me amplify on a couple of matters. At the time Cooper jumped, the airliner was in steady level flight at 10,000 feet and had a true airspeed of about 225 MPH. Quote Okay, Robert, I'll recheck my notes, but I've read in numerous places, if I can rememebr accurately, that 305 was going no faster than 200 km/hr, which would put it about 175 mph, no? Bruce, Cooper specified that the landing gear would be left down and that the flaps would be set at 15 degrees before taking off from Seattle. The NWA aircraft performance group told the crew to fly at 170 Knots Indicated Airspeed to maximize the airliner's range (i.e., most miles per gallon of fuel). At the 10,000 foot altitude, with the temperature and sea level presssure corrections plugged in, that 170 Knots Indicated Airspeed becomes about 195 Knots True Airspeed. Expressed in MPH, the 195 KTAS is about 225 MPH True Airspeed. After reaching 10,000 feet altitude, the airliner tried to maintain exactly 170 KIAS for the remainder of the flight to Reno. Bruce, I think you are somehow reading Knots (which is one nautical mile per hour) as Kilometers per hour. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #26946 October 28, 2011 QuoteRobert99, The C9 was successfully tested at speeds far exceeding 200 mph. I remember seeing movie footage shot at very high frame rates back in the 1980s. the camera was mounted on a payload and shot up towards the deploying canopy. I saw the film when I worked for an aerospace company doing military contracting. I've tried to find it on the Internet but no luck. Snow could probably find it. It's not a trivial thing to exceed a 150 mph limit by 33% on a sport or commercial canopy. The energy goes up as the square of velocity. 200 mph gives nearly double the energy of the same object going 150 mph. Rrrrriiiiipppp. 377 377, That's exactly why I agree with you that Cooper's selection of the military parachute was the correct choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #26947 October 28, 2011 I made a post that I verified was on the thread and today when I got here it is GONE! Like the one that Vickie "captured" this is real...things go POOF that I post. I posted 3 or 4 very important pictures. I could not find the post so here goes again. I mentioned that 3 of these photos where sent to me by the ex-wife while the step-daughter was still alive. View these photos and think about them. She was sending me a message long before the 4th photo (the FBI photo of the tie) was ever made public. A member of her family contacted me yrs later - in the and this is when I learned "the tie story". The individual contacting me was unaware I did NOT know the story. I am limited by the time I can spend sitting at the computer to compose a post. I do try to read all of the posts done on any given day - just to keep abreast of what is going on and to make a short post or 2 if I feel like it. Some of my post are choppy and have errors in them...but, that is the way it is. Hope most of you know what I am trying to say even though I mispell words and the wording sometimes is some what incoherent.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #26948 October 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteDon't forget the tie and DNA. The FBI is confident that it is Coopers DNA. 377 Quote Actually, 377, the FBI is not confident that the DNA is Cooper's. Carr was quite specific on that point in our one conversation. Also, the fingerprints are suspect. SAC Calame says they are worthless, and Larry said the Bureau had no assurance that any of the 60 prints was DBC. If Cooper left a print it would be on the aftstairs - per the Dream Duane had! I would have thought he would have put gloves on before going down the stairs, but who knows? Himmelsbach made the statement - that some of the prints they found could have been there since the plane was built. I believe this meant they took lots of prints from the aftway and stairs...and he did NOT disclose where they got the 60 some latent prints. The most likely areas would have been the wheel to the aft way and around that point and on the rails. A dream is just a dream until it becomes a nightmare!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hangdiver 1 #26949 October 28, 2011 QuoteHangdiver says in part: Quote 'It's far more Norjack specific (picture posed on ladder) than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase...' That's a misquote: QuoteI'd like to take credit for this, but it was Snow. Imagine Norman actually was DBC and was having the last laugh on Bruce in this photo below, recreating his 727 stair exit.Wink http://themountainnewswa.files.wordpress.com/...yden-clowning-16.jpg It's far more Norjack specific than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase. 377 There's the quote you referenced Blevins... At least get the current quotes correct...Please... eta: This is an example of how myths get started... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #26950 October 28, 2011 Crosschecks are embraced like the idea of a sandpaper condom on this thread as they must be viewed as drudgery or utterly redundant and repetitious. I think the phrase redundant and repetitious may be an oxymoron but would prefer donning the previously mentioned device over further research on the subject. For all the angst, writhing and tooth gnashing frustration that crosschecks create on the subject of Cooper, I can only wonder if they may have prevented things which become even more angstier, writhingly and tooth gnashingly frustraitinger had they been discovered at the source. Nawwwwww….. I keeed, I keeed you with this thought. Carry on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 Next Page 1078 of 2568 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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georger 244 #26929 October 27, 2011 QuoteHi georger, I understand you're a member of knowledge on Cooper. I'm new here, so I'm sure it's been asked before, but I have to try and understand why Tina Mucklow is so silent on this issue. What's your take? She wants her privacy. A normal life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hangdiver 1 #26930 October 27, 2011 QuoteHi georger, I understand you're a member of knowledge on Cooper. I'm new here, so I'm sure it's been asked before, but I have to try and understand why Tina Mucklow is so silent on this issue. What's your take? You might start by reading 1121 pages to catch up not to mention the first thread that was locked. here's the link to the locked thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2540834;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; ETA: Also numerous books and Sluggo's website: http://n467us.com/ hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #26931 October 27, 2011 I'd like to take credit for this, but it was Snow. Imagine Norman actually was DBC and was having the last laugh on Bruce in this photo below, recreating his 727 stair exit.http://themountainnewswa.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/dbc-parachutes-hayden-clowning-16.jpg It's far more Norjack specific than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hangdiver 1 #26932 October 27, 2011 Quote I'd like to take credit for this, but it was Snow. Imagine Norman actually was DBC and was having the last laugh on Bruce in this photo below, recreating his 727 stair exit.http://themountainnewswa.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/dbc-parachutes-hayden-clowning-16.jpg It's far more Norjack specific than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase. 377 I believe there is at least one thing we can all agree on...that someone did it... and...I say believe because I don't know for sure if there isn't someone that thinks he never existed. hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #26933 October 27, 2011 hangdiver wrote:QuoteI believe there is at least one thing we can all agree on...that someone did it... There are still some who think DBC never existed. They think the crew faked the whole thing and split the loot. Some think that's why Tina became a recluse. I think DBC was real and that his ID will be discovered in my lifetime. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pek771 0 #26934 October 28, 2011 QuoteI think DBC was real and that his ID will be discovered in my lifetime. 377 I read most of the many pages as was suggested. There are very few facts, no prints, no DNA. Raleigh butts are missing. The only evidence is some money dredged up in the Columbia. It really could have been anyone. Providing no "new" old evidence shows up, the only thing that will satisfy the masses curiosity is some more of the money. Just one twenty will do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #26935 October 28, 2011 Don't forget the tie and DNA. The FBI is confident that it is Coopers DNA. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hangdiver 1 #26936 October 28, 2011 QuoteDon't forget the tie and DNA. The FBI is confident that it is Coopers DNA. 377 The other rigs went somewhere as well...if they actually existed...how can someone find the placard and not the rigs and briefcase...??? eta: a small amount of money was found as well...why was all the small stuff found and nothing bigger than a couple bundles of bills...??? Now don't judge me...I like to think outside the box...I don't live there..I just step outside to check the weather once in a while. "Question Everything" hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #26937 October 28, 2011 Greetings All, I have received many questions about Earl Cossey, Norman Hayden and the parachutes, and I've taken them - along with the copious facts and perspectives shared - to come up with a sizeable addendum to the Mountain News article on the parachute issue. You can go to the Mountain News, as clicky-linked a few posts back, and read the piece replete with the addendum, or simply peruse the addendum posted below in full: **************************** Parachutes Cossey snippet, 10.26.11 Seeking answers, the Mountain News has spoken several times with both Mr. Cossey and Mr. Hayden. Mr. Cossey emphatically claims that the two back parachutes in question are his. Cossey described the two chutes as being different, and specifically stated that the chute DB Cooper actually selected was a military, sage-green nylon, 28-foot round canopy that was placed inside a container known as an NB 8, which is a designation for a Navy Backpack pilot’s emergency rig. Apparently, navy pilots did not wear emergency reserve, “front,” chutes and only relied on the one, main chute if they had to bail out. Cossey said that the second chute, the one not chosen by Cooper, was known as a “Pioneer” because the container was manufactured by a firm named Pioneer, and had been designed for use by acrobatic pilots. As such, it had padded shoulder and leg straps and also contained a “sleeve” over the canopy that would deploy first and thus slow down the opening of the main chute and therefore lessen the shock when it did fully open. On multiple occasions, Cossey has characterized the NB 8 rig as a “broken-down VW” and the not-taken parachute rig as a “Cadillac.” In addition, Cossey has referred to the second parachute as a “sports chute,” explaining that he does so because the Pioneer container was of a type that often housed parachutes that could be steered in a modern fashion, whereas the 28-foot canopy in the NB 8 - possibly a military surplus C-9 round canopy - had no capacity for steering. This somewhat off-hand expression by Cossey, referring to the not-used parachute as a “sport chute,” may have resulted in sowing some confusion into the investigation. In the 1971 era there were sports chutes available, including a popular round canopy called a Paracommander. As sporty and steerable as they were back in the day, Paracommanders are now superseded by today’s rectangular dual-surface, ram-air parachutes that are eminently steerable and can be flared, such that the landings are usually on target and as gentle as stepping off a bus. As a result, this advanced level of parachute technology distorts the image of the actual 1971-era sports chute capabilities in the mind of some Cooper investigators and journalists. Nevertheless, Cooper-era Paracommanders did offer a measure of true steer-ablity. They had numerous vent openings cut into the panels to give the canopy forward motion and they could be given directionality by using steering lines that selectively closed certain vents to rotate the canopy. The forward motion combined with the ability to rotate the canopy allowed it to be maneuvered much like a glider. It has been widely assumed, particularly in the media and among some investigators that Cooper’s not-used “sport” chute was a Paracommander, and thus arguably a better choice for jumping over forested mountainous terrain since it could be steered into a clear area for landing. Nevertheless, Cooper-era Paracommanders offered a measure of true steer-ablity. They had numerous vent openings cut into the panels to give the canopy forward motion and they could be given directionality by using steering lines that selectively closed certain vents to rotate the canopy. The forward motion combined with the ability to rotate the canopy allowed it to be maneuvered much like a glider. It appears that it has been widely assumed, particularly in the media and among some investigators that Cooper’s not-used “sport” chute was a Paracommander, and thus arguably a better choice for jumping over forested mountainous terrain since it could be steered into a clear area for landing. However, in our last conversation on this subject a couple of weeks ago, Cossey stated definitively that the not-used parachute was not a Paracommander and was simply a round military chute designed for pilots. Further, Mr. Cossey has never told me the size of the canopy on the not-taken parachute, and whether it is a 26-foot conical as the FBI claims, has not been clarified to my knowledge. In addition, Cossey, who owned and operated a parachute supply company and also packed parachutes professionally - including the ones he says went to Cooper - told me that he had made a modification to the NB 8 rig for reasons he did not elaborate upon, simply saying that he had altered the location of the ripcord. Because of this ripcord modification and the nature of the sleeveless parachute Cossey said the 28-foot round military canopy contained within the NB 8 was hard to deploy, and it delivered a harsher opening than would be experienced by a jumper using the other rig. For these reasons he concluded that Cooper chose an inferior parachute in comparison to the one he left behind on the airplane. Since DB Cooper did not select the so-called superior parachute, Cossey feels that Cooper was not a highly skilled parachutist, an attitude that is now embraced by the FBI. It is not known how much influence Mr. Cossey’s views had on the FBI, but Cossey freely voices his opinions about DB Cooper. “He didn’t make it,” Cossey said, which is the perspective generally voiced by the FBI. “By not choosing the sports chute, DB Cooper showed his limited knowledge of skydiving,” Cossey continued. Cossey cites Cooper’s inexperience and the hard-pull from the ripcord as leading to Cooper being a “no-pull,” which concluded with Cooper cratering somewhere in the woods of southwestern Washington state. “I don’t believe he pulled the ripcord,” Cossey told me in 2009. However, Cossey’s comparative assessment of these parachutes is not shared by all skydivers, most notably a jumper known as “377,” who is found on the parachuting website called “DropZone.” 377 says that if the NB 8 contained a 28-foot C-9 type canopy, which is designed to withstand high-speed jet ejection openings, it would have been an optimum choice for an exit from a 727. If the rig not taken had a 26-foot Navy conical canopy, it too, would have been able to withstand a high-speed opening. However, if the canopy in the Pioneer rig was a commercial type rather than military one, then it might have been designed for opening speeds below 150 mph, which would be significantly lower than Flight 305’s estimated speed of 170-180 mph. Unless Cooper read the packing cards he wouldn't know what canopies were packed in the NB 8 and Pioneer rigs. Since a commercial unit such as the Pioneer might have a commercial low-speed emergency canopy packed inside, the military NB 8 would have been the better choice as it was more likely to have a military canopy packed inside, such as the C-9. In speaking with 377, who started jumping in 1968 and is still active, he said he had jumped all three types of canopies, the 28-foot C-9, the 26-foot Navy conical, and a number of 26-28-foot, low-speed commercial canopies. His personal choice for the Cooper jump would have been the C-9, but the Navy conical would have been a very close second if it was available and identifiable. 377 also said that many C-9s and Navy conicals had been modified before 1971 with a system called a "four-line release," which allowed military aircrew - and sport jumpers using them as reserves - to release four key suspension lines after opening, which would give a moderate forward speed to the canopy and allow steering by pulling on marked suspension lines or using differential riser pulls. 377 ended our conversation by stating, "I'm not saying I know more than Cossey - after all he is an experienced FAA-licensed rigger and I am not - but I think given the situation and the limited amount of information Cooper may have had about the Pioneer rig and its contents, he chose the right rig for the jump when he put on the NB 8." Whether the NB 8 had a C-9 inside remains for Mr. Cossey to tell us, or the FBI, but so far this information has not been made available publicly. Along those lines, the transport of the parachutes to Sea-Tac airport is also murky, and it has been widely reported that Cossey put them in a taxi and they went first to Boeing Field in Renton, and then on to Sea-Tac by private car. Why the chutes made such a circuitous route to the hijacking has not been explained in sources that are generally available, and recent attempts to clarify this matter with Mr. Cossey have been unsuccessful. (Note: I first contacted Earl Cossey, who prefers being called “Coss,” in March, 2009. At that time, I was new to the DB Cooper story and I called Coss to learn more about his famous parachutes and to discuss the then-hot topic of the Amboy, WA parachute that was widely rumored to be DB Cooper’s getaway rig. However, I apparently misunderstood or misinterpreted some of what Coss told me. As a result, I have grossly mis-represented his perspective – and the facts - on how sporty the not-used chute actually is. I also mis-characterized other related issues, such as Coss placing the Cooper chute into a smaller, NB 6 container although that action has been attributed to Mr. Cossey by the former FBI Cooper case agent, Larry Carr. In addition, I have incorrectly described the Cooper chute as one used by Coss for his own personal recreational skydiving. I profoundly apologize to Coss for these inaccuracies, and I hope that our once-robust professional relationship may be restored in the near future.) As for the controversy, Coss states definitively that he owned the two parachutes and says that he has never heard of Norman Hayden, apparently not recalling when he signed the rigging card for Norman in May, 1971. However, that transaction may have occurred with no direct contact between the two men. Continuing, when I told Coss that Mr. Hayden is claiming ownership of the two back parachutes, Cossey replied, “He’s full of s**t.” Further, when I informed Coss that FBI documents indicate that Mr. Hayden is the owner of the parachutes, the rigger retorted, “Well, Northwest Airlines paid me for the chutes; so that should tell ya something!” As for what Norman Hayden has to say on the subject, I traveled to see him at his shop in Kent, Washington, on Monday, October 24, 2011, and upon the advice of many in the skydiving world I invited Bruce Thun to accompany me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #26938 October 28, 2011 Quote I'd like to take credit for this, but it was Snow. Imagine Norman actually was DBC and was having the last laugh on Bruce in this photo below, recreating his 727 stair exit.http://themountainnewswa.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/dbc-parachutes-hayden-clowning-16.jpg It's far more Norjack specific than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase. 377 GUYS! The Vortex is strong. Please be careful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #26939 October 28, 2011 QuoteDon't forget the tie and DNA. The FBI is confident that it is Coopers DNA. 377 Quote Actually, 377, the FBI is not confident that the DNA is Cooper's. Carr was quite specific on that point in our one conversation. Also, the fingerprints are suspect. SAC Calame says they are worthless, and Larry said the Bureau had no assurance that any of the 60 prints was DBC. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #26940 October 28, 2011 Bruce, Please let me amplify on a couple of matters. At the time Cooper jumped, the airliner was in steady level flight at 10,000 feet and had a true airspeed of about 225 MPH. The last I heard, the FAA described a "low speed" civilian parachute as being good to 150 MPH and a "high speed" civilian parachute as being good to 160 MPH. 377 is correct in saying that the military parachute would have been the better choice for this jump. Whatever it was, it was probably good for about 200 MPH. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #26941 October 28, 2011 Quote Actually, 377, the FBI is not confident that the DNA is Cooper's. Carr was quite specific on that point in our one conversation. Also, the fingerprints are suspect. SAC Calame says they are worthless, and Larry said the Bureau had no assurance that any of the 60 prints was DBC. Nevertheless...if a print matches one of the ones on the plane, or if DNA cannot be excluded from the samples on the tie, it would be a stronger link than anything we've seen yet.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #26942 October 28, 2011 QuoteBruce, Please let me amplify on a couple of matters. At the time Cooper jumped, the airliner was in steady level flight at 10,000 feet and had a true airspeed of about 225 MPH. Quote Okay, Robert, I'll recheck my notes, but I've read in numerous places, if I can rememebr accurately, that 305 was going no faster than 200 km/hr, which would put it about 175 mph, no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #26943 October 28, 2011 Nevertheless...if a print matches one of the ones on the plane, or if DNA cannot be excluded from the samples on the tie, it would be a stronger link than anything we've seen yet. Yup. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #26944 October 28, 2011 Robert99, The C9 was successfully tested at speeds far exceeding 200 mph. I remember seeing movie footage shot at very high frame rates back in the 1980s. the camera was mounted on a payload and shot up towards the deploying canopy. I saw the film when I worked for an aerospace company doing military contracting. I've tried to find it on the Internet but no luck. Snow could probably find it. It's not a trivial thing to exceed a 150 mph limit by 33% on a sport or commercial canopy. The energy goes up as the square of velocity. 200 mph gives nearly double the energy of the same object going 150 mph. Rrrrriiiiipppp. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #26945 October 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteBruce, Please let me amplify on a couple of matters. At the time Cooper jumped, the airliner was in steady level flight at 10,000 feet and had a true airspeed of about 225 MPH. Quote Okay, Robert, I'll recheck my notes, but I've read in numerous places, if I can rememebr accurately, that 305 was going no faster than 200 km/hr, which would put it about 175 mph, no? Bruce, Cooper specified that the landing gear would be left down and that the flaps would be set at 15 degrees before taking off from Seattle. The NWA aircraft performance group told the crew to fly at 170 Knots Indicated Airspeed to maximize the airliner's range (i.e., most miles per gallon of fuel). At the 10,000 foot altitude, with the temperature and sea level presssure corrections plugged in, that 170 Knots Indicated Airspeed becomes about 195 Knots True Airspeed. Expressed in MPH, the 195 KTAS is about 225 MPH True Airspeed. After reaching 10,000 feet altitude, the airliner tried to maintain exactly 170 KIAS for the remainder of the flight to Reno. Bruce, I think you are somehow reading Knots (which is one nautical mile per hour) as Kilometers per hour. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #26946 October 28, 2011 QuoteRobert99, The C9 was successfully tested at speeds far exceeding 200 mph. I remember seeing movie footage shot at very high frame rates back in the 1980s. the camera was mounted on a payload and shot up towards the deploying canopy. I saw the film when I worked for an aerospace company doing military contracting. I've tried to find it on the Internet but no luck. Snow could probably find it. It's not a trivial thing to exceed a 150 mph limit by 33% on a sport or commercial canopy. The energy goes up as the square of velocity. 200 mph gives nearly double the energy of the same object going 150 mph. Rrrrriiiiipppp. 377 377, That's exactly why I agree with you that Cooper's selection of the military parachute was the correct choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #26947 October 28, 2011 I made a post that I verified was on the thread and today when I got here it is GONE! Like the one that Vickie "captured" this is real...things go POOF that I post. I posted 3 or 4 very important pictures. I could not find the post so here goes again. I mentioned that 3 of these photos where sent to me by the ex-wife while the step-daughter was still alive. View these photos and think about them. She was sending me a message long before the 4th photo (the FBI photo of the tie) was ever made public. A member of her family contacted me yrs later - in the and this is when I learned "the tie story". The individual contacting me was unaware I did NOT know the story. I am limited by the time I can spend sitting at the computer to compose a post. I do try to read all of the posts done on any given day - just to keep abreast of what is going on and to make a short post or 2 if I feel like it. Some of my post are choppy and have errors in them...but, that is the way it is. Hope most of you know what I am trying to say even though I mispell words and the wording sometimes is some what incoherent.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #26948 October 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteDon't forget the tie and DNA. The FBI is confident that it is Coopers DNA. 377 Quote Actually, 377, the FBI is not confident that the DNA is Cooper's. Carr was quite specific on that point in our one conversation. Also, the fingerprints are suspect. SAC Calame says they are worthless, and Larry said the Bureau had no assurance that any of the 60 prints was DBC. If Cooper left a print it would be on the aftstairs - per the Dream Duane had! I would have thought he would have put gloves on before going down the stairs, but who knows? Himmelsbach made the statement - that some of the prints they found could have been there since the plane was built. I believe this meant they took lots of prints from the aftway and stairs...and he did NOT disclose where they got the 60 some latent prints. The most likely areas would have been the wheel to the aft way and around that point and on the rails. A dream is just a dream until it becomes a nightmare!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hangdiver 1 #26949 October 28, 2011 QuoteHangdiver says in part: Quote 'It's far more Norjack specific (picture posed on ladder) than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase...' That's a misquote: QuoteI'd like to take credit for this, but it was Snow. Imagine Norman actually was DBC and was having the last laugh on Bruce in this photo below, recreating his 727 stair exit.Wink http://themountainnewswa.files.wordpress.com/...yden-clowning-16.jpg It's far more Norjack specific than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase. 377 There's the quote you referenced Blevins... At least get the current quotes correct...Please... eta: This is an example of how myths get started... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #26950 October 28, 2011 Crosschecks are embraced like the idea of a sandpaper condom on this thread as they must be viewed as drudgery or utterly redundant and repetitious. I think the phrase redundant and repetitious may be an oxymoron but would prefer donning the previously mentioned device over further research on the subject. For all the angst, writhing and tooth gnashing frustration that crosschecks create on the subject of Cooper, I can only wonder if they may have prevented things which become even more angstier, writhingly and tooth gnashingly frustraitinger had they been discovered at the source. Nawwwwww….. I keeed, I keeed you with this thought. Carry on. 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Robert99 50 #26940 October 28, 2011 Bruce, Please let me amplify on a couple of matters. At the time Cooper jumped, the airliner was in steady level flight at 10,000 feet and had a true airspeed of about 225 MPH. The last I heard, the FAA described a "low speed" civilian parachute as being good to 150 MPH and a "high speed" civilian parachute as being good to 160 MPH. 377 is correct in saying that the military parachute would have been the better choice for this jump. Whatever it was, it was probably good for about 200 MPH. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #26941 October 28, 2011 Quote Actually, 377, the FBI is not confident that the DNA is Cooper's. Carr was quite specific on that point in our one conversation. Also, the fingerprints are suspect. SAC Calame says they are worthless, and Larry said the Bureau had no assurance that any of the 60 prints was DBC. Nevertheless...if a print matches one of the ones on the plane, or if DNA cannot be excluded from the samples on the tie, it would be a stronger link than anything we've seen yet.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #26942 October 28, 2011 QuoteBruce, Please let me amplify on a couple of matters. At the time Cooper jumped, the airliner was in steady level flight at 10,000 feet and had a true airspeed of about 225 MPH. Quote Okay, Robert, I'll recheck my notes, but I've read in numerous places, if I can rememebr accurately, that 305 was going no faster than 200 km/hr, which would put it about 175 mph, no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #26943 October 28, 2011 Nevertheless...if a print matches one of the ones on the plane, or if DNA cannot be excluded from the samples on the tie, it would be a stronger link than anything we've seen yet. Yup. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #26944 October 28, 2011 Robert99, The C9 was successfully tested at speeds far exceeding 200 mph. I remember seeing movie footage shot at very high frame rates back in the 1980s. the camera was mounted on a payload and shot up towards the deploying canopy. I saw the film when I worked for an aerospace company doing military contracting. I've tried to find it on the Internet but no luck. Snow could probably find it. It's not a trivial thing to exceed a 150 mph limit by 33% on a sport or commercial canopy. The energy goes up as the square of velocity. 200 mph gives nearly double the energy of the same object going 150 mph. Rrrrriiiiipppp. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #26945 October 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteBruce, Please let me amplify on a couple of matters. At the time Cooper jumped, the airliner was in steady level flight at 10,000 feet and had a true airspeed of about 225 MPH. Quote Okay, Robert, I'll recheck my notes, but I've read in numerous places, if I can rememebr accurately, that 305 was going no faster than 200 km/hr, which would put it about 175 mph, no? Bruce, Cooper specified that the landing gear would be left down and that the flaps would be set at 15 degrees before taking off from Seattle. The NWA aircraft performance group told the crew to fly at 170 Knots Indicated Airspeed to maximize the airliner's range (i.e., most miles per gallon of fuel). At the 10,000 foot altitude, with the temperature and sea level presssure corrections plugged in, that 170 Knots Indicated Airspeed becomes about 195 Knots True Airspeed. Expressed in MPH, the 195 KTAS is about 225 MPH True Airspeed. After reaching 10,000 feet altitude, the airliner tried to maintain exactly 170 KIAS for the remainder of the flight to Reno. Bruce, I think you are somehow reading Knots (which is one nautical mile per hour) as Kilometers per hour. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #26946 October 28, 2011 QuoteRobert99, The C9 was successfully tested at speeds far exceeding 200 mph. I remember seeing movie footage shot at very high frame rates back in the 1980s. the camera was mounted on a payload and shot up towards the deploying canopy. I saw the film when I worked for an aerospace company doing military contracting. I've tried to find it on the Internet but no luck. Snow could probably find it. It's not a trivial thing to exceed a 150 mph limit by 33% on a sport or commercial canopy. The energy goes up as the square of velocity. 200 mph gives nearly double the energy of the same object going 150 mph. Rrrrriiiiipppp. 377 377, That's exactly why I agree with you that Cooper's selection of the military parachute was the correct choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #26947 October 28, 2011 I made a post that I verified was on the thread and today when I got here it is GONE! Like the one that Vickie "captured" this is real...things go POOF that I post. I posted 3 or 4 very important pictures. I could not find the post so here goes again. I mentioned that 3 of these photos where sent to me by the ex-wife while the step-daughter was still alive. View these photos and think about them. She was sending me a message long before the 4th photo (the FBI photo of the tie) was ever made public. A member of her family contacted me yrs later - in the and this is when I learned "the tie story". The individual contacting me was unaware I did NOT know the story. I am limited by the time I can spend sitting at the computer to compose a post. I do try to read all of the posts done on any given day - just to keep abreast of what is going on and to make a short post or 2 if I feel like it. Some of my post are choppy and have errors in them...but, that is the way it is. Hope most of you know what I am trying to say even though I mispell words and the wording sometimes is some what incoherent.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #26948 October 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteDon't forget the tie and DNA. The FBI is confident that it is Coopers DNA. 377 Quote Actually, 377, the FBI is not confident that the DNA is Cooper's. Carr was quite specific on that point in our one conversation. Also, the fingerprints are suspect. SAC Calame says they are worthless, and Larry said the Bureau had no assurance that any of the 60 prints was DBC. If Cooper left a print it would be on the aftstairs - per the Dream Duane had! I would have thought he would have put gloves on before going down the stairs, but who knows? Himmelsbach made the statement - that some of the prints they found could have been there since the plane was built. I believe this meant they took lots of prints from the aftway and stairs...and he did NOT disclose where they got the 60 some latent prints. The most likely areas would have been the wheel to the aft way and around that point and on the rails. A dream is just a dream until it becomes a nightmare!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hangdiver 1 #26949 October 28, 2011 QuoteHangdiver says in part: Quote 'It's far more Norjack specific (picture posed on ladder) than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase...' That's a misquote: QuoteI'd like to take credit for this, but it was Snow. Imagine Norman actually was DBC and was having the last laugh on Bruce in this photo below, recreating his 727 stair exit.Wink http://themountainnewswa.files.wordpress.com/...yden-clowning-16.jpg It's far more Norjack specific than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase. 377 There's the quote you referenced Blevins... At least get the current quotes correct...Please... eta: This is an example of how myths get started... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #26950 October 28, 2011 Crosschecks are embraced like the idea of a sandpaper condom on this thread as they must be viewed as drudgery or utterly redundant and repetitious. I think the phrase redundant and repetitious may be an oxymoron but would prefer donning the previously mentioned device over further research on the subject. For all the angst, writhing and tooth gnashing frustration that crosschecks create on the subject of Cooper, I can only wonder if they may have prevented things which become even more angstier, writhingly and tooth gnashingly frustraitinger had they been discovered at the source. Nawwwwww….. I keeed, I keeed you with this thought. Carry on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 Next Page 1078 of 2568 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 50 50 Go To Topic Listing
BruceSmith 3 #26943 October 28, 2011 Nevertheless...if a print matches one of the ones on the plane, or if DNA cannot be excluded from the samples on the tie, it would be a stronger link than anything we've seen yet. Yup. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #26944 October 28, 2011 Robert99, The C9 was successfully tested at speeds far exceeding 200 mph. I remember seeing movie footage shot at very high frame rates back in the 1980s. the camera was mounted on a payload and shot up towards the deploying canopy. I saw the film when I worked for an aerospace company doing military contracting. I've tried to find it on the Internet but no luck. Snow could probably find it. It's not a trivial thing to exceed a 150 mph limit by 33% on a sport or commercial canopy. The energy goes up as the square of velocity. 200 mph gives nearly double the energy of the same object going 150 mph. Rrrrriiiiipppp. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 50 #26945 October 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteBruce, Please let me amplify on a couple of matters. At the time Cooper jumped, the airliner was in steady level flight at 10,000 feet and had a true airspeed of about 225 MPH. Quote Okay, Robert, I'll recheck my notes, but I've read in numerous places, if I can rememebr accurately, that 305 was going no faster than 200 km/hr, which would put it about 175 mph, no? Bruce, Cooper specified that the landing gear would be left down and that the flaps would be set at 15 degrees before taking off from Seattle. The NWA aircraft performance group told the crew to fly at 170 Knots Indicated Airspeed to maximize the airliner's range (i.e., most miles per gallon of fuel). At the 10,000 foot altitude, with the temperature and sea level presssure corrections plugged in, that 170 Knots Indicated Airspeed becomes about 195 Knots True Airspeed. Expressed in MPH, the 195 KTAS is about 225 MPH True Airspeed. After reaching 10,000 feet altitude, the airliner tried to maintain exactly 170 KIAS for the remainder of the flight to Reno. Bruce, I think you are somehow reading Knots (which is one nautical mile per hour) as Kilometers per hour. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #26946 October 28, 2011 QuoteRobert99, The C9 was successfully tested at speeds far exceeding 200 mph. I remember seeing movie footage shot at very high frame rates back in the 1980s. the camera was mounted on a payload and shot up towards the deploying canopy. I saw the film when I worked for an aerospace company doing military contracting. I've tried to find it on the Internet but no luck. Snow could probably find it. It's not a trivial thing to exceed a 150 mph limit by 33% on a sport or commercial canopy. The energy goes up as the square of velocity. 200 mph gives nearly double the energy of the same object going 150 mph. Rrrrriiiiipppp. 377 377, That's exactly why I agree with you that Cooper's selection of the military parachute was the correct choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #26947 October 28, 2011 I made a post that I verified was on the thread and today when I got here it is GONE! Like the one that Vickie "captured" this is real...things go POOF that I post. I posted 3 or 4 very important pictures. I could not find the post so here goes again. I mentioned that 3 of these photos where sent to me by the ex-wife while the step-daughter was still alive. View these photos and think about them. She was sending me a message long before the 4th photo (the FBI photo of the tie) was ever made public. A member of her family contacted me yrs later - in the and this is when I learned "the tie story". The individual contacting me was unaware I did NOT know the story. I am limited by the time I can spend sitting at the computer to compose a post. I do try to read all of the posts done on any given day - just to keep abreast of what is going on and to make a short post or 2 if I feel like it. Some of my post are choppy and have errors in them...but, that is the way it is. Hope most of you know what I am trying to say even though I mispell words and the wording sometimes is some what incoherent.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #26948 October 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteDon't forget the tie and DNA. The FBI is confident that it is Coopers DNA. 377 Quote Actually, 377, the FBI is not confident that the DNA is Cooper's. Carr was quite specific on that point in our one conversation. Also, the fingerprints are suspect. SAC Calame says they are worthless, and Larry said the Bureau had no assurance that any of the 60 prints was DBC. If Cooper left a print it would be on the aftstairs - per the Dream Duane had! I would have thought he would have put gloves on before going down the stairs, but who knows? Himmelsbach made the statement - that some of the prints they found could have been there since the plane was built. I believe this meant they took lots of prints from the aftway and stairs...and he did NOT disclose where they got the 60 some latent prints. The most likely areas would have been the wheel to the aft way and around that point and on the rails. A dream is just a dream until it becomes a nightmare!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hangdiver 1 #26949 October 28, 2011 QuoteHangdiver says in part: Quote 'It's far more Norjack specific (picture posed on ladder) than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase...' That's a misquote: QuoteI'd like to take credit for this, but it was Snow. Imagine Norman actually was DBC and was having the last laugh on Bruce in this photo below, recreating his 727 stair exit.Wink http://themountainnewswa.files.wordpress.com/...yden-clowning-16.jpg It's far more Norjack specific than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase. 377 There's the quote you referenced Blevins... At least get the current quotes correct...Please... eta: This is an example of how myths get started... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #26950 October 28, 2011 Crosschecks are embraced like the idea of a sandpaper condom on this thread as they must be viewed as drudgery or utterly redundant and repetitious. I think the phrase redundant and repetitious may be an oxymoron but would prefer donning the previously mentioned device over further research on the subject. For all the angst, writhing and tooth gnashing frustration that crosschecks create on the subject of Cooper, I can only wonder if they may have prevented things which become even more angstier, writhingly and tooth gnashingly frustraitinger had they been discovered at the source. Nawwwwww….. I keeed, I keeed you with this thought. Carry on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 Next Page 1078 of 2568 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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Robert99 50 #26946 October 28, 2011 QuoteRobert99, The C9 was successfully tested at speeds far exceeding 200 mph. I remember seeing movie footage shot at very high frame rates back in the 1980s. the camera was mounted on a payload and shot up towards the deploying canopy. I saw the film when I worked for an aerospace company doing military contracting. I've tried to find it on the Internet but no luck. Snow could probably find it. It's not a trivial thing to exceed a 150 mph limit by 33% on a sport or commercial canopy. The energy goes up as the square of velocity. 200 mph gives nearly double the energy of the same object going 150 mph. Rrrrriiiiipppp. 377 377, That's exactly why I agree with you that Cooper's selection of the military parachute was the correct choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #26947 October 28, 2011 I made a post that I verified was on the thread and today when I got here it is GONE! Like the one that Vickie "captured" this is real...things go POOF that I post. I posted 3 or 4 very important pictures. I could not find the post so here goes again. I mentioned that 3 of these photos where sent to me by the ex-wife while the step-daughter was still alive. View these photos and think about them. She was sending me a message long before the 4th photo (the FBI photo of the tie) was ever made public. A member of her family contacted me yrs later - in the and this is when I learned "the tie story". The individual contacting me was unaware I did NOT know the story. I am limited by the time I can spend sitting at the computer to compose a post. I do try to read all of the posts done on any given day - just to keep abreast of what is going on and to make a short post or 2 if I feel like it. Some of my post are choppy and have errors in them...but, that is the way it is. Hope most of you know what I am trying to say even though I mispell words and the wording sometimes is some what incoherent.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #26948 October 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteDon't forget the tie and DNA. The FBI is confident that it is Coopers DNA. 377 Quote Actually, 377, the FBI is not confident that the DNA is Cooper's. Carr was quite specific on that point in our one conversation. Also, the fingerprints are suspect. SAC Calame says they are worthless, and Larry said the Bureau had no assurance that any of the 60 prints was DBC. If Cooper left a print it would be on the aftstairs - per the Dream Duane had! I would have thought he would have put gloves on before going down the stairs, but who knows? Himmelsbach made the statement - that some of the prints they found could have been there since the plane was built. I believe this meant they took lots of prints from the aftway and stairs...and he did NOT disclose where they got the 60 some latent prints. The most likely areas would have been the wheel to the aft way and around that point and on the rails. A dream is just a dream until it becomes a nightmare!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hangdiver 1 #26949 October 28, 2011 QuoteHangdiver says in part: Quote 'It's far more Norjack specific (picture posed on ladder) than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase...' That's a misquote: QuoteI'd like to take credit for this, but it was Snow. Imagine Norman actually was DBC and was having the last laugh on Bruce in this photo below, recreating his 727 stair exit.Wink http://themountainnewswa.files.wordpress.com/...yden-clowning-16.jpg It's far more Norjack specific than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase. 377 There's the quote you referenced Blevins... At least get the current quotes correct...Please... eta: This is an example of how myths get started... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #26950 October 28, 2011 Crosschecks are embraced like the idea of a sandpaper condom on this thread as they must be viewed as drudgery or utterly redundant and repetitious. I think the phrase redundant and repetitious may be an oxymoron but would prefer donning the previously mentioned device over further research on the subject. For all the angst, writhing and tooth gnashing frustration that crosschecks create on the subject of Cooper, I can only wonder if they may have prevented things which become even more angstier, writhingly and tooth gnashingly frustraitinger had they been discovered at the source. Nawwwwww….. I keeed, I keeed you with this thought. Carry on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 Next Page 1078 of 2568 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 50 50
hangdiver 1 #26949 October 28, 2011 QuoteHangdiver says in part: Quote 'It's far more Norjack specific (picture posed on ladder) than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase...' That's a misquote: QuoteI'd like to take credit for this, but it was Snow. Imagine Norman actually was DBC and was having the last laugh on Bruce in this photo below, recreating his 727 stair exit.Wink http://themountainnewswa.files.wordpress.com/...yden-clowning-16.jpg It's far more Norjack specific than KC posing as DBC holding a briefcase. 377 There's the quote you referenced Blevins... At least get the current quotes correct...Please... eta: This is an example of how myths get started... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #26950 October 28, 2011 Crosschecks are embraced like the idea of a sandpaper condom on this thread as they must be viewed as drudgery or utterly redundant and repetitious. I think the phrase redundant and repetitious may be an oxymoron but would prefer donning the previously mentioned device over further research on the subject. For all the angst, writhing and tooth gnashing frustration that crosschecks create on the subject of Cooper, I can only wonder if they may have prevented things which become even more angstier, writhingly and tooth gnashingly frustraitinger had they been discovered at the source. Nawwwwww….. I keeed, I keeed you with this thought. Carry on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
