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Quote225 MPH True Airspeed.
That's definitely C9 territory.
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2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
I liked Geoff's book however and I enjoyed meeting him.
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I like Geoff, too. It's just that sometimes I get the urge to throw my beer at him and that can get messy when I'm talking to him on the phone...or leaving another message.....
pek771 0
You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
Hominid 0
I don't believe that 305 was doing about 170 KIAS when Coop jumped. Back in the old thread, Carr said as part of a large post that it was doing 173 knots when Coop jumped. He said a lot of stuff in that post and the DZ jumped on his case about a lot of stuff, but did not discuss that 173 knots.
The flight test was reportedly done at near 150 KIAS. At 148 knots, that would have been 173 kt TAS.
Although the crew had reason to do that 170KIAS for most of the flight (to have fuel to make Reno), there is no reason to think they would not depart from that for the purpose of getting Coop out.
The flight test was reportedly done at near 150 KIAS. At 148 knots, that would have been 173 kt TAS.
Although the crew had reason to do that 170KIAS for most of the flight (to have fuel to make Reno), there is no reason to think they would not depart from that for the purpose of getting Coop out.
Robert99 50
QuoteI don't believe that 305 was doing about 170 KIAS when Coop jumped. Back in the old thread, Carr said as part of a large post that it was doing 173 knots when Coop jumped. He said a lot of stuff in that post and the DZ jumped on his case about a lot of stuff, but did not discuss that 173 knots.
The flight test was reportedly done at near 150 KIAS. At 148 knots, that would have been 173 kt TAS.
Although the crew had reason to do that 170KIAS for most of the flight (to have fuel to make Reno), there is no reason to think they would not depart from that for the purpose of getting Coop out.
Hominid, We have some conflicting information here. Let me do an extended explanation and I'll try to explain where each number comes from.
First, the 170 KIAS (the number read on the airspeed indicator assuming no position or instrument error) came from the NWA performance group in Minneapolis and, strictly speaking, applied only to the early part of the flight to Reno.
As the fuel load decreases, the indicated airspeed for best range decreases also. However, the airliner crew maintained 170 KIAS since they were told while in the Portland area that they had sufficient fuel to get to Reno at 170 KIAS. No point in dragging the flight out all night!
At 8:13:14 PM PST, the airliner reported to Seattle ATC that they were at 10,000 feet altitude. At 8:15:52 PM PST, Seattle ATC informed the airliner that the Portland altimeter setting was 30.03. Then follows the famous 18 minute period of silence on this particular frequency.
In the "FBI notes" at 8:10 PM PST, the crew reported oscillations of the cabin rate of climb indicator. The suggestion is made by the recorder of this information that this may be the best estimate of when Cooper jumped.
Also at 8:10 PM PST, the aircraft was reported to be at 10,000 feet altitude, 170K (this would be 170 KIAS), and that the total air temperature was -7 degrees Centigrade. The statement also reports "MSPFO calculated TAS (True Air Speed) and range from this data".
If MSPFO can calculate True Air Speed from the above information, so can we. All it takes is a simple pilot's flight calculator, and they have been around longer than I have, to determine that the TAS is 194 Knots.
The sled tests have absolutely nothing to do with the above calculations. And I have not seen any flight performance data from those tests and have no idea where those numbers came from.
In addition, I don't know if Carr or any of the other FBI personnel involved with the Cooper investigation had any flight experience or training. But if Carr did, he was probably referring to 173 Knots Indicated Air Speed.
If you have a pilot's hand calculator and want to go through the precise calculation required to find the TAS, let me know (including your type of calculator).
Amazon 7
Quote
Amazon, My point was that with the military parachute, Cooper would have basically been within its operational capabilities from the time he separated from the aircraft.
But with a "high speed" 160 MPH FAA parachute, Cooper would probably been above that speed for most of the free fall even if he was an experienced jumper. He did not have any visual references to help with his stabilization until he was below the lowest cloud layer and, hopefully, could see some lights on the ground.
Even with just a general head first free fall, Cooper would probably be exceeding 180 MPH. For the record, I crunched some numbers along this line about a year or two ago.
But Cooper jumped in 1971. Today, with the proper training and equipment, the above comments may not apply to advanced users of parachute technology.
Trust me on this.. there is no way in hell he could be head down... it takes a LOT of skill to fly in that attitude... now.. back flying with the head a little low or when a student does it in an attitude called Tango Uniform... yup... its a position I have seen many times that newbies manage to find all on their own.
Now... a head down dive.... by one of the fastest guys in the world..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yemCdQSKkt8 THIS is some serious skill
Robert99 50
QuoteQuote
Amazon, My point was that with the military parachute, Cooper would have basically been within its operational capabilities from the time he separated from the aircraft.
But with a "high speed" 160 MPH FAA parachute, Cooper would probably been above that speed for most of the free fall even if he was an experienced jumper. He did not have any visual references to help with his stabilization until he was below the lowest cloud layer and, hopefully, could see some lights on the ground.
Even with just a general head first free fall, Cooper would probably be exceeding 180 MPH. For the record, I crunched some numbers along this line about a year or two ago.
But Cooper jumped in 1971. Today, with the proper training and equipment, the above comments may not apply to advanced users of parachute technology.
Trust me on this.. there is no way in hell he could be head down... it takes a LOT of skill to fly in that attitude... now.. back flying with the head a little low or when a student does it in an attitude called Tango Uniform... yup... its a position I have seen many times that newbies manage to find all on their own.
Now... a head down dive.... by one of the fastest guys in the world..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yemCdQSKkt8 THIS is some serious skill
Amazon, I said "a general head first free fall" which is something you would probably refer to as a "delta" position (as illustrated on page 196 of "The Skydiver's Handbook" by Poynter and Turoff, 10th revised edition).
I am in complete agreement with you that the fellow in the youtube video requires great skill in keeping his body pointed straight down and streamlined (keeping his body's "drag area" at its absolute minimum). And any thing he does that increases his body's "drag area" is going to slow him down.
Let me also point out that the so-called terminal velocities of 120 MPH and 190 MPH, mentioned on the referenced page above, are actually only good at sea level standard conditions. At higher altitudes they will be faster.
Also on the same page is the statement that "Short, fat people freefall faster at terminal than tall skinny ones ...". In my always humble opinion, in a straight-down head-first freefall the tall skinny person will have the smaller "drag area" and will descend faster than a short and fat person of equal weight.
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OK here's the deal.
You are exiting from a jet at night. It's flying fast. This aint no King Air or Twin Otter jump. You have a poor or non existent visual horizon. Your chances of establishing and maintaining stable frefall aren't so good and an asymmetric attached payload of loot makes the chances lower.
So maybe you knew about the Air America 727 static line jumps. Bingo. There won't be any tumbling or loss of control. You'll deploy right off the steps. Better not try that with a canopy that is redlined at 150 or 160 mph. The tough old C9, the Nylon Pitbull, is your answer. The C9 can take it, noooo problem.
You see two rigs. One is a military bailout rig, the other a commercial rig for private pilots. You guess that the military rig is more likely to contain a high speed military canopy, so you pick that one. You pull the ripcord while standing on the bottom of the stairs facing forward. The pilot chute pops out, grabs air, extracts your canopy and in a few seconds you are hanging under an open canopy. The danger isn't over yet, but you have left the plane and you are alive and descending at a survivable speed.
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You are exiting from a jet at night. It's flying fast. This aint no King Air or Twin Otter jump. You have a poor or non existent visual horizon. Your chances of establishing and maintaining stable frefall aren't so good and an asymmetric attached payload of loot makes the chances lower.
So maybe you knew about the Air America 727 static line jumps. Bingo. There won't be any tumbling or loss of control. You'll deploy right off the steps. Better not try that with a canopy that is redlined at 150 or 160 mph. The tough old C9, the Nylon Pitbull, is your answer. The C9 can take it, noooo problem.
You see two rigs. One is a military bailout rig, the other a commercial rig for private pilots. You guess that the military rig is more likely to contain a high speed military canopy, so you pick that one. You pull the ripcord while standing on the bottom of the stairs facing forward. The pilot chute pops out, grabs air, extracts your canopy and in a few seconds you are hanging under an open canopy. The danger isn't over yet, but you have left the plane and you are alive and descending at a survivable speed.
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2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Jerry Thomas posted that he was ready to post some information concerning Jo that would prove without a shadow of a doubt that she is a complete liar, yet when I asked him to produce such evidence he conviently is absent from the forum for the past several days. JT are you out there? You have a major hard on for Jo and when I call you out, you run off and hide. I just want to see the evidence. Please enlighten me.
I am speechless! One of those Gotcha moments. I will be very busy for the next few days.
Don't know how much more I can take! This is ALL too much for me right now. Between my health and Cooper, I don't have enough time to do what has to be done. Facing more surgery - probably the scariest thing I have ever had to face and then MY search for Cooper hits an all time high in relation to Weber.
Burns, Oregon and Prineville - my search took me there before and then JT went down there (almost immediately after I posted about that area) which I found very suspicious, although no one else thought so.
If JT is not part of a cover-up - he is certainly going to a lot of trouble to erase all evidence of Weber having been in the WA, OR and ID area. Perhaps some of you need go back over JT's history in regards to subjects he has supported in the past and now the "splattered and density of the forest or in the river" story is constantly disputed by many.![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
While everyone else has been researching the flight and the jump - I have been doing what I have done for 15 yrs - finding out about the past of one Duane L. Weber aka John C. Collins and Dan Cooper.
I have had a lot of help and support from those who post in the thread and a lot from others who prefer not to post here or have no desire to do so. It is what goes on OUTSIDE of this thread that is very important.
Sluggo's litte motto he always used about "those who Know" and he Knew what he was talking about.
I wonder what has happened to Sluggo and if he is well. If he is well and reads the thread - I hope he makes a post to let ALL know he is OKAY.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
QuoteI am speechless! One of those Gotcha moments. I will be very busy for the next few days.
Don't know how much more I can take! This is ALL too much for me right now. Between my health and Cooper, I don't have enough time to do what has to be done. Facing more surgery - probably the scariest thing I have ever had to face and then MY search for Cooper hits an all time high in relation to Weber.
Burns, Oregon and Prineville - my search took me there before and then JT went down there (almost immediately after I posted about that area) which I found very suspicious, although no one else thought so.
If JT is not part of a cover-up - he is certainly going to a lot of trouble to erase all evidence of Weber having been in the WA, OR and ID area. Perhaps some of you need go back over JT's history in regards to subjects he has supported in the past and now the "splattered and density of the forest or in the river" story is constantly disputed by many.
While everyone else has been researching the flight and the jump - I have been doing what I have done for 15 yrs - finding out about the past of one Duane L. Weber aka John C. Collins and Dan Cooper.
I have had a lot of help and support from those who post in the thread and a lot from others who prefer not to post here or have no desire to do so. It is what goes on OUTSIDE of this thread that is very important.
Sluggo's litte motto he always used about "those who Know" and he Knew what he was talking about.
I wonder what has happened to Sluggo and if he is well. If he is well and reads the thread - I hope he makes a post to let ALL know he is OKAY.
PS:
After I posted the above and went back to edit it - I saw that JT is going to provide "proof" that I am a liar. I will remind all of you that I had NO map of the area prior to 2001 and the Osha Map I had of the entire 1/2 of the US had NO details regarding roads in WA or OR. JT provided the details and who was I to argue with the "Man on the Ground" as Himmelsbach called him. Only after my 2001 trip did I put an end to communication with him - and he KNOWS why!
The man and the 3 ladies who assisted me in 2001 after the TV crew left - well, no one was expecting me to continue the seach on that trip. These women and the man can attest to the fact that when they picked me up - I was very upset that the places the crew took me at JT's direction were NOT the places I was looking for...most looked nothing like what I tried to describe over the phone.
I rest my case and BTW - maybe, just maybe the search for Cooper is OVER and maybe some very nice people have contacted the FBI on my behalf. JT's continued efforts to discredit me only makes him look bad or makes him look like part of a cover-up (perhaps only because he wants to be the one to expose Cooper).
All I have ever wanted was the truth and to know about the past of my husband.... just too many blank spots. Twice he just disappeared off the face of the earth - and the stories he told me in 3rd person all happened during these missing yrs. In those days no one knew such things as computers and archives would be able to find trace evidence of those yrs. No one ever expected for courthouse records to be available from all over the US by someone sitting at a computer.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
That's pretty clever Farflung.
I heard an idle rich kid referred to as a Trustafarian.
Good ID on that Pioneer rig.
"Sky King, Sky King, do not answer. Papa Tango Three. Time Three Five. Authentication Whiskey November. I say again; Sky King, Sky King, do not answer. Papa Tango Three. Time Three Five. Authentication Whiskey November."
Farflung knows what that command means and who broadcast it. Ask him about it. If he won't tell you then ask Gen. Buck Turgidson. It's US Govt code but amazingly it does not ID Duane as DBC.
Snowman, who is anti authoritarian and also in command of a 50KW HF station, would have answered.
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