DB Cooper

[377 22]

Blevins wrote

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Very good explanation, 377. Did you like my little Dramatic Jump bit there?

Yes I did Robert. It was a lot more entertaining than my version.

All this talk about Cooper going in as a no pull with an impossibly hard to pull right hand outboard ripcord handle etc...

Hey, just don't leave the stairs until you've pulled. It's simple. Stay put until the deploying chute pulls you off the stairs.

Until I saw the Air America 727 exits I'd have never thought about pulling while still on the stair but after seeing it that would be my first choice. I thought the deployment and opening shock would be extremely violent. It wasn't. Not at all. The canopies squidded, opened slowly and the jumpers didn't tumble.

Cooper wanted a 727. He asked if that was the type of aircraft that would be flying the route he booked. Did he know for sure a 727 could be jumped? Did he know about the Air America jumps?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

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Jerry Thomas posted that he was ready to post some information concerning Jo that would prove without a shadow of a doubt that she is a complete liar, yet when I asked him to produce such evidence he conviently is absent from the forum for the past several days. JT are you out there? You have a major hard on for Jo and when I call you out, you run off and hide. I just want to see the evidence. Please enlighten me.

And Jo has been posting for 5- odd years that there are imminent revelations to prove her case. We've yet to see anything even approximating evidence. So?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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... yourself into the mind of the hijacker. Big load, crummy clothes and shoes, noisy jet blast, stairs moving downward as you descend the steps, it's dark, you're probably scared...

So backing down the stairs and taking the chicken's way out on the jump makes sense.

Only if you've never jumped before, or never stood in the door of a plane at night like a loadmaster has. That scenario doesn't cut it for someone with jumping experience, especially if someone has been military and done those jumps at night.

And I'm not so convinced he jumped in those shoes either. What was he doing in the bathroom? Did the stew who saw him put the chutes on confirm that he was dressed exactly as he was when he got on the plane?

Incidentally I've seen footage of skydivers in suits before (admittedly not on a cold night!)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Farflung 0]

After 40 years of some of the finest litany and trivial pursuit ever displayed on a subject there is mounting evidence that the Cooper chutes were reserves and emergency pilot rigs. Yawwwwnnnn.

This has a couple implications that have been dusted off previously with great confidence and faux authority regarding these pieces of equipment. Proportionality will at least allow some casual observer or person with expertise in a different arena to determine if something is a long shot or plausible. Like knowing if the odds are a ba-jillion to one or one in a few dozen. People who engage in endless hyperbole are NOT candidates but facilitators to inefficiencies, cost over runs and delays. I have as of yet to see one of these people identify themselves but hold out hope. OK, that was a lie; I have no hope of this ever changing.

So I’m watching (that’s right passively) a program about some murder (Peggy Hettrick) from 1987 where some guy is in jail (Timothy Masters) and claims to be ‘innocent’. Yawwwnnnn.

The defense team finds a DNA lab that specializes in extracting samples from higher probability sites by analyzing where the ‘bad guy’ would have grabbed someone in the commission of their dastardly deed. If a person is dragged they would be clasped under the arms versus mid back and carried like a lunch box. Apparently this sort of grasping deposits better (whatever that means) DNA samples and this worked on this 20 year old case. This of course is contrary to previous discussions here (gasp!).

After seeing the data cards on the parachute from Bruce’s article I was surprised (not really) to see two repacks in several years and the chute still sealed from the mid 80’s. The internals of this parachute would not appear (assumption by a monkey here) to have been handled by hundreds of people but more like dozens. This is not a ‘sport’ parachute getting opened several times on weekends with nice weather but a bailout chute for emergency use. Of course when asked, I’m sure everyone claims to jump ba-jillions of times on all 63 weekends of the year. Yeah, I’ve done some market research (buyers are liars).

Back to a little proportionality and using some pseudo-known data points with the Cooper gear. The repack frequency for reserves and emergency chutes was 120 days or three times per year. My spider senses tell me that the actual number would be less but I’ll stick with three. If the Cooper rigs are from a 1957 vintage (assumption here nothing more, relax) the 1971 hijacking would be 14 years later. So 3 X 14 equals 42 repacks and inspections from the date of manufacture assuming the equipment was current all of the time. This is not thousands or hundreds but three and a half dozen processes which may have been performed by a handful of licensed people. Hmmmmmm.

I guess I can’t see why checking those canopy lines where Cooper grasped to cut them would be an inferior technique in the face of the proceeding assumptions but that’s what separates man from ape I suppose. I would like to apologize in advance for dredging up this well worn and sour subject again.

So was any of the Cooper equipment non-emergency gear without a seal and how many people molested the stuff?

[Robert99 50]

Quote

After 40 years of some of the finest litany and trivial pursuit ever displayed on a subject there is mounting evidence that the Cooper chutes were reserves and emergency pilot rigs. Yawwwwnnnn.

This has a couple implications that have been dusted off previously with great confidence and faux authority regarding these pieces of equipment. Proportionality will at least allow some casual observer or person with expertise in a different arena to determine if something is a long shot or plausible. Like knowing if the odds are a ba-jillion to one or one in a few dozen. People who engage in endless hyperbole are NOT candidates but facilitators to inefficiencies, cost over runs and delays. I have as of yet to see one of these people identify themselves but hold out hope. OK, that was a lie; I have no hope of this ever changing.

So I’m watching (that’s right passively) a program about some murder (Peggy Hettrick) from 1987 where some guy is in jail (Timothy Masters) and claims to be ‘innocent’. Yawwwnnnn.

The defense team finds a DNA lab that specializes in extracting samples from higher probability sites by analyzing where the ‘bad guy’ would have grabbed someone in the commission of their dastardly deed. If a person is dragged they would be clasped under the arms versus mid back and carried like a lunch box. Apparently this sort of grasping deposits better (whatever that means) DNA samples and this worked on this 20 year old case. This of course is contrary to previous discussions here (gasp!).

After seeing the data cards on the parachute from Bruce’s article I was surprised (not really) to see two repacks in several years and the chute still sealed from the mid 80’s. The internals of this parachute would not appear (assumption by a monkey here) to have been handled by hundreds of people but more like dozens. This is not a ‘sport’ parachute getting opened several times on weekends with nice weather but a bailout chute for emergency use. Of course when asked, I’m sure everyone claims to jump ba-jillions of times on all 63 weekends of the year. Yeah, I’ve done some market research (buyers are liars).

Back to a little proportionality and using some pseudo-known data points with the Cooper gear. The repack frequency for reserves and emergency chutes was 120 days or three times per year. My spider senses tell me that the actual number would be less but I’ll stick with three. If the Cooper rigs are from a 1957 vintage (assumption here nothing more, relax) the 1971 hijacking would be 14 years later. So 3 X 14 equals 42 repacks and inspections from the date of manufacture assuming the equipment was current all of the time. This is not thousands or hundreds but three and a half dozen processes which may have been performed by a handful of licensed people. Hmmmmmm.

I guess I can’t see why checking those canopy lines where Cooper grasped to cut them would be an inferior technique in the face of the proceeding assumptions but that’s what separates man from ape I suppose. I would like to apologize in advance for dredging up this well worn and sour subject again.

So was any of the Cooper equipment non-emergency gear without a seal and how many people molested the stuff?

Is it possible that Bruce Smith, or someone else, could talk Hayden into popping that Pioneer chute just to get the canopy information?

[377 22]

Farflung wrote

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The repack frequency for reserves and emergency chutes was 120 days or three times per year. My spider senses tell me that the actual number would be less but I’ll stick with three

Your Spidey sense is correct, big time. You would be shocked at ACTUAL rigger repack intervals. Of course I am not speaking about my own gear.

As long as emergency rigs and reserves are kept in dark dry places with moderate temps and no mice, they can go for years without a repack and still open OK.

Normans repack intervals show that he subscribed to the skydiver repack protocol rather than the FAA one.

My first reserve (26 ft Navy conical) was way out of date when I popped it over Pope Valley in the 70s. I was a poor student and chose between jump tickets or repacks.

My second, a PD 193R, popped at WFFC 2005 was fresh and legal.

The FAA very rarely looks at skydiver rigs but they show up at airports and do ramp checks on planes which could include a look at packing cards in emergency chutes.

I wonder what packing interval is required for those ballistic chutes that let entire small planes down, like the Cirrus?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[mark 107]

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Farflung wrote

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The repack frequency for reserves and emergency chutes was 120 days or three times per year. My spider senses tell me that the actual number would be less but I’ll stick with three

IIRC, in 1971 the repack cycle was 60 days.

Mark

[377 22]

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Farflung wrote

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The repack frequency for reserves and emergency chutes was 120 days or three times per year. My spider senses tell me that the actual number would be less but I’ll stick with three

IIRC, in 1971 the repack cycle was 60 days.

Mark

That's right. It just changed to 120 days a few years ago thanks to the FAA lobbying efforts of Allen Silver, a commercial and military rigger. Allen is an old time skydiver too. He was one of my jumpmasters back in the late 60s.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[mark 107]

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Quote

IIRC, in 1971 the repack cycle was 60 days.

Mark

That's right. It just changed to 120 180 days a few years ago thanks to the FAA lobbying efforts of Allen Silver, a commercial and military rigger. Allen is an old time skydiver too. He was one of my jumpmasters back in the late 60s.

377

FIFY.

Mark

[Orange1 0]

I wasn't actually "hinting" at KC. KC, Braden, petersen, any one of thousands of mil jumpers or loadmasters....take your pick.
Btw you make it sound like you think Cooper would be walking down the stairs holding a briefcase...I presume that's not what you meant.
As for the rest of it...chutes and a heavy load = business as usual for a military jumper.

But make up your mind...first you said backing down because he was scared, now because it's safer? Backing down might be safer, but an experienced jumper would probably turn and face out before jumping. But um....remind me why this mattered again anyway?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[BruceSmith 3]

Is it possible that Bruce Smith, or someone else, could talk Hayden into popping that Pioneer chute just to get the canopy information?

[skyjack71 0]

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The defense team finds a DNA lab that specializes in extracting samples from higher probability sites by analyzing where the ‘bad guy’ would have grabbed someone in the commission of their dastardly deed. If a person is dragged they would be clasped under the arms versus mid back and carried like a lunch box. Apparently this sort of grasping deposits better (whatever that means) DNA samples and this worked on this 20 year old case. This of course is contrary to previous discussions here (gasp!).

{Portions edited out to be bring home a point}

I guess I can’t see why checking those canopy lines where Cooper grasped to cut them would be an inferior technique in the face of the proceeding assumptions but that’s what separates man from ape I suppose. I would like to apologize in advance for dredging up this well worn and sour subject again.

So was any of the Cooper equipment non-emergency gear without a seal and how many people molested the stuff?

This has been my argument for yrs. Why would the FBI NOT check the cut canopy cords for Cooper DNA?. You said it better than I have been able to. I wonder if the FBI agents have even given this thought? Perhaps they lost the cut cord also! Perhaps they gave what was left back to the owner. It will be one of the same excuses they had about the cigarette butts!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 244]

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Quote

The defense team finds a DNA lab that specializes in extracting samples from higher probability sites by analyzing where the ‘bad guy’ would have grabbed someone in the commission of their dastardly deed. If a person is dragged they would be clasped under the arms versus mid back and carried like a lunch box. Apparently this sort of grasping deposits better (whatever that means) DNA samples and this worked on this 20 year old case. This of course is contrary to previous discussions here (gasp!).

{Portions edited out to be bring home a point}

I guess I can’t see why checking those canopy lines where Cooper grasped to cut them would be an inferior technique in the face of the proceeding assumptions but that’s what separates man from ape I suppose. I would like to apologize in advance for dredging up this well worn and sour subject again.

So was any of the Cooper equipment non-emergency gear without a seal and how many people molested the stuff?

This has been my argument for yrs. Why would the FBI NOT check the cut canopy cords for Cooper DNA?. You said it better than I have been able to. I wonder if the FBI agents have even given this thought? Perhaps they lost the cut cord also! Perhaps they gave what was left back to the owner. It will be one of the same excuses they had about the cigarette butts!

and from this you conclude FDR was a negro? ? ?

[ClassClown 0]

Still waiting on Jerry Thomas and his..................PROOF.................................ho hum

[georger 244]

Here's the problem: Even if the FBI did this, it would result in the same go-around regarding the tie DNA. You could never be sure the sample was viable, or even if the FBI was right in any annoucement regarding it. There would always be doubt. .

... and your scientific basis for saying this is ... ?

Isnt it true you are just speculating wildly because
you like seeing yourself in print, but dont know
ANYTHING about genetics, genetic testing, or
anything of a factual nature that matters about
the physical evidence in this case.

The only way you could be even partially correct
in any manner is by total accident. Isnt that correct?

Obviously you cant even formulate a meaningful
answer.

[Orange1 0]

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Still waiting on Jerry Thomas and his..................PROOF.................................ho hum

Well....Jerry will be proved a liar the minute Jo finally provides her proof ...what do you reckon the chances of that?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Witness testimony is far more likely to be degraded than DNA over 40 years!!!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[hangdiver 1]

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How about bringing in Bernie Geestman and Helen Jones, and then asking Geestman WHY he said on History Channel that he thought KC could be the hijacker...AFTER she placed KC and he together the week of the hijacking. Of course, Geestman was not aware of this at the time he was filmed. I would like to hear his response to that question. Seems reasonable to me, since he is a proven liar, i.e. Foss Tugs, calling his sister, and telling History Channel he didn't even know KC.

Occam's razor is screaming "Brokeback Mountain"...!!!...

not that there's anything wrong with that...

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[377 22]

Wish we had some footage of the FBI sled test military jumper making his first trip down the stairs. We have one photo which shows him near the bottom facing up the stairs, but that could have been taken after he turned around.

I think if you had the details of the Air America 727 jumps you'd do a forward facing pull off deployment.

Haven't repeated this in a long time but the Cooper chute is very likely still out there. No reason for him to pack it out if alive. If he went in it's out there as well, but packed.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[sailshaw 0]

Blevins: I believe DB must of had two rolls of ACE bandages in the paper bag so he could wrap his foot and pant leg and beef-up the area that jump boots normally takes care of. Then with the raincoat top flap folded over and buttoned down, he had almost the protection of a smoke jump suit. He had plenty of time in the restroom to do all the above and get ready. I believe he was a military jumper with smoke-jumping ecperience and picked the right chute.

Bob

[Farflung 0]

Mark comments:

“IIRC, in 1971 the repack cycle was 60 days.”

And Mark recalls correctly according to the FAA’s own scripture. Thank you, I’m a little smarter now.

Then 60 days it is (good enough for me especially since it has the added and rare bonus of being true)…. So that increases the frequency from 42 repacks to 84 in 14 years. I’ll still go with 84 total because I’m sure that everyone was having those repacks done even during the winter months (cough, riiiiiiight cough).

There are claims of several types of DNA on the tie. Just seems like a DNA match from the cut lines on the reserve to the tie would really narrow down the possibilities but for some reason (as of yet to be accurately sourced) there is great resistance to the very suggestion and I can’t figure why (cough, riiiiight cough). If the DNA is too degraded the best time to determine that would be during the extract process (whatever that is) at the potential source instead of making a preemptive claim because it is already know that Suspect X’s DNA does NOT match. A weak, shameful and obvious play (time to throw a denial grenade).

Using some founded and sourced assumptions based on decades of observable behavior (FAA regs) the realm of possibilities on the reserve lines can be reduced from thousands or hundreds as previously stated to a likely few dozen. Then an expert or source material could be used to explain why this would be a virtual impossibility. The number of repacks at 84 over a span of 14 years is not an intimidating number. Neither are the total number of riggers and assistants who may have engaged in the process of inspecting, repairing and packing. If this number was too large, I would assume (assuming here, relax again) that a number near dozens would have been used instead of hundreds or thousands in the first place (this is called blowback). All I’m trying to discover is the general environment of the space to explore. Nothing more refined than Red, Yellow or Green before taking another step (read reading here) in the direction of a potential solution. Or I could latch on to a suspect and engage in steering and manipulation of data in a flaccid attempt to advance my pre-plotted cause under the veil of having an open mind (cough, riiiiight cough).

[Farflung 0]

Sure appears to be an increased number of mind-numbing acts of stupidity lately with a trend of exponential increases (code for Solyndra):

http://www.latimes.com/travel/deals/la-trb-jetblue-stranded-hartford-20111030,1,2366209.story

You got it, there was a virtual Donner party on the ramp in Connecticut. That’s enough to make Chilean coal mining or abandoned well exploration in Texas appear to be an acceptable if not preferable risk to air travel. Are we the same country that got Apollo 13 home? No wonder the greatest technological achievement since has been the Segway and Flash Mobs.

How many impotent, un-empowered, soulless, don’t bother me I’m waiting for the next pay-check and it’s too small, never heard of innovation or improvisation, Zombies does it take to screw up Hartford’s airport? Good thing that plane was not on fire.

Air stairs, tugs, vans, trucks, ambulances, busses, monorails, lavatory service vehicles, escalators, unicycles, line dancing, the Hokey Pokey, Jazz Hands step gliding, doors, stairs, flashlights, beefy reflective vest wearing guys willing to carry the hot chicks, ice skates, tectonic plate movement, fire trucks, security cars, golf carts, tricycles and ATVs all suffered simultaneous failures? This generous feat of disassociation makes the Cooper crime not being solved all the more palatable since it would take four promotions for this story to qualify as abject bungling with the airport employees saving face by logging on Amazon.com and buying a ‘Home Version Hara-Kari’ set and showing the good taste to use the things.

[georger 244]

Playing the Gay Card here regarding KC and Geestman won't work. Geestman was married, with children, and currently has a live-in girlfriend in Port Angeles. He and KC were co-workers for many years, and friends. Not lovers.
.

So, what does work?

You are the KC Researcher - you tell us what works?
You spent all of this time researching Kenny and now you are claiminhg you know nothing more about his personal life than to see he must have been DB Cooper, because Geestman is a liar? That is weak!

That KC was DB Cooper!? Why not Marilyn Monroes'
lover? It has to be something wierd and earthshaking, why? Because it was on DECODED.
iF ITS ON TV IT HAS TO BE REAL?

All these years Geestman and Kenny were friends
and did things together - give us one nonCooper
"thing" that the two men did do together. Did they
go fishing? Did they play poker? Fill up the hours
and years for us? They only hijacked once! So what
in hell did they do the rest of the time ... for years?
Give us anything.

Why are you even here with this tripe?

[hangdiver 1]

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Playing the Gay Card here regarding KC and Geestman won't work. Geestman was married, with children, and currently has a live-in girlfriend in Port Angeles. He and KC were co-workers for many years, and friends. Not lovers.

I hear you Blevins and also know your bias...that being said all of your evidence is circumstantial at best...weaving the facts to match your suspect.

I have many gay friends...some married with children that later came out...others living a lie to their wives and themselves...being married has nothing to do with being gay or bisexual...

I'm not sure you really understand this...

Maybe Geestman was pimping out KC for all you know in an Airstream trailer.

I have an open mind...I still think my dad did it...prove me wrong...!!!...

He had all the skills and resembles the sketch as well

Am I writing a book declaring it was him...???...no...

I think you should look at the subtleties of the crime...that will get you a lot further to solving it than cherry picking a suspect and weaving his life to fit the crime...just sayin...

eta: what georger said!!!

hangdiver, over and out...

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[georger 244]

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Playing the Gay Card here regarding KC and Geestman won't work. Geestman was married, with children, and currently has a live-in girlfriend in Port Angeles. He and KC were co-workers for many years, and friends. Not lovers.

I hear you Blevins and also know your bias...that being said all of your evidence is circumstantial at best...weaving the facts to match your suspect.

I have many gay friends...some married with children that later came out...others living a lie to their wives and themselves...being married has nothing to do with being gay or bisexual...

I'm not sure you really understand this...

Maybe Geestman was pimping out KC for all you know in an Airstream trailer.

I have an open mind...I still think my dad did it...prove me wrong...!!!...

He had all the skills and resembles the sketch as well

Am I writing a book declaring it was him...???...no...

I think you should look at the subtleties of the crime...that will get you a lot further to solving it than cherry picking a suspect and weaving his life to fit the crime...just sayin...

eta: what georger said!!!

hangdiver, over and out...

Nobody has shown anything that nails down what
Kenny/Geestman did on 'any' given weekend during
their whole relationship, so ... it follows that on 11-
24-71 they must have been hijacking an airplane!

So there isnt even enough data to form a decent
anecdote about anything.

BTW Gray didnt provide anything tangible either,
to explicate Kenny and Geestman's relationship.
So from that total vacuum we jump to: KC was
DB Cooper! (why not Kim Novak in drag?) Fact is,
neither Gray or Blevins have given anything that
even ties KC to the DB Cooper crime. Its all a
sermon, and Gray is very good at sermonizing
completely devoid of facts! Blevins has simply
followed in Gray's footsteps, freeloading, while
some applaud and call that brilliance?

The whole thing is jurinalistic tripe.

Its like a football game without any actual plays ...
with the audience walking out at the half.

The Cooper vacuum is full of this kind of
opportunistic sensationalism. Its a social reality
and nothing more. Its lousy journalism.