377 22 #27126 November 4, 2011 QuoteCost of Living 1971 How Much things cost in 1971 Yearly Inflation Rate USA 4.3% Yearly Inflation Rate UK 8.6% Year End Close Dow Jones Industrial Average 890 Average Cost of new house $25,250.00 Average Income per year $10,600.00 Average Monthly Rent $150.00 Cost of a gallon of Gas 40 cents Datsun 1200 Sports Coupe $1,866.00 United States postage Stamp 8 cents Ladies 2 piece knit suites $9.98 Movie Ticket $1.50 http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/1971.html 12,500 foot jump ticket $12.50 UC Berkeley tuition, approx $2250.00 per year 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #27127 November 4, 2011 That’s right I’ve watched it and I’m not afraid to admit it. Who doesn’t enjoy seeing the expression on a woman’s face after she has been informed that her cherished, heirloom, centuries old antique vase her grandmother left her is a low value reproduction? It’s good that this is on TV because I can laugh at home which is something I would never do in public. OK, that was a lie. None the less, I am astonished at how so few people, can know so much, about such narrow subject matter (like tie clasps). These appraisers are specialists in whatever (left handed couch buns) and can arrive at some amazingly rapid and accurate conclusions because they know where to look and what to look for. The same way I blush when a suburbanite misidentifies another ‘cow’. It truly isn’t that hard guys. Anyway, since it is hard for most people to know everything about everything; it is a good idea to call in some experts on what it is you thirst for. Everything doesn’t have to be treated like some James Bond-y, National Secret, geesh. After reading about the tie clasp (bar, tack, whatever) which has been examined closer than a centerfold picture at a Boy Scout jamboree, there remains no mention of any stamp or hallmark. To include a statement like…. ummm….. there is no apparent manufacturers stamp or hallmark. Even though all my crummy tie tacks, cuff links and cock rings have some sort of identifying mark. What exactly is the ‘gem’ in the middle of the clasp? Pearl (a la FBI), abalone, stone, polymer, Bakelite, resin, glass, Ethiopian lap lap or doesn’t matter? What’s the composition of the clasp? Gold filled, plate, dipped, electroplated, neutral gold cyanide or Roswellian chamber dusted? Too banal, I know, I know. What if (if here, relax again) there was only one company known to manufacture half inch, Bakelite decorations in gold electroplated bezels named the ‘Shitty Thai Klasp Company’? Again, too banal. There is a problem when anything becomes too incestuous (oxymoron?) and nature has certainly mapped out a dead end road for these overspecialized species. Too bad we can’t learn from our mistakes even by accident. Hey, let’s have an open discussion about various analytical techniques which will raise the tide of all knowledge where the best of a profession or vocation is selected for their unique skills and abilities in order to arrive at a rational and superior result. But first, we need to ‘elect’ a King. Oh well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #27128 November 5, 2011 TK - "Amboy chute is not silk but a first generation nylon parachute" Quote TK agrees with you. What is "first generation nylon" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #27129 November 5, 2011 Quote Quote TK - "Amboy chute is not silk but a first generation nylon parachute" Quote TK agrees with you. What is "first generation nylon" I think he means the first nylon parachutes made after they stopped using silk. I'm not the expert on chutes, that's for sure. However.... The 'I Told You So' Department: I was ridiculed (okay...CHALLENGED) when I pointed out that the Amboy chute could not be made of silk because silk is biodegradable and not being packed, it would have soon rotted in the cold, wet ground of Washington state. Yet the FBI continued to leave that explanation on their website and in press releases. Since 2008, no less. To make things worse, para-packer Earl Cossey is on record giving this same reason (silk, not nylon) as to WHY it could not be Cooper's. I also offered a possible reason why the FBI would just do a cursory investigation on the chute and then dismiss it. To admit the Amboy chute could be Cooper's, they would have to retract their position that Cooper died in the Columbia and that's how the money ended up at Tena Bar. Also, they would have to admit that Cooper got away with it, because you need a live person to bury a parachute. Sure, the money could be explained away by saying he died. But not the buried parachute. This, and the recent Marla Cooper claim, (and other stuff) is why I sometimes question the FBI's position on things they say are 'official' in the case. *Question Everything* Woah there Nelly. I've got my questions about the Amboy chute as well - but where does Tom Kaye say he looked at the Amboy chute? Maybe i missed it but I don't see where his team had first hand knowledge or inspected the Amboy chute?? From his site: "The Amboy parachute was not available during the inspection and it was not clear if that evidence was archived in the Seattle FBI office. We concur with others who originally forwarded the idea [4], that the Amboy chute is not silk but a first generation nylon parachute. The research team has a standing offer with the FBI to return to Amboy and excavate the location where it was discovered." What research is he basing his conclusion on? Condition/ date stamp / pictures? Unless I missed something, the material makeup of the Amboy is still not definitively settled as far as I can see.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #27130 November 5, 2011 Quote I also offered a possible reason why the FBI would just do a cursory investigation on the chute and then dismiss it. To admit the Amboy chute could be Cooper's, they would have to retract their position that Cooper died in the Columbia and that's how the money ended up at Tena Bar. Also, they would have to admit that Cooper got away with it, because you need a live person to bury a parachute. Sure, the money could be explained away by saying he died. But not the buried parachute. This, and the recent Marla Cooper claim, (and other stuff) is why I sometimes question the FBI's position on things they say are 'official' in the case. *Question Everything* I just had a 2 1/2 hour conversation with someone regarding WHY the FBI's position on certain subjects are so Wishy Washy. It all comes down to "The FBI is hiding something". That is aways the consensus unless they want to admit to just being Stupid. 40 yrs and they offer little more than they did 35 yrs ago. A good close up-picture of a tie clasp should have been done, but they did NOTHING of the sort. A vague picture with NO mention of the grade of "pearl" or the content of the metal. If they do not want to analyze the tac - then give the public a magnified picture of the clasp alone. A close-up of the clasp might have found Cooper yrs ago, but the FBI keeps secrets and now Father time keeps them. I will address your question about WHY I do NOT post documents. Number one I am lousy at scanning documents and too much would have to be blacked out like the FBI does. Remember that Duane had a wife and stepchildren. I would put myself at great risk by posting tax reports and W-2's. Also, something like the IOU - I was told to beware of this man...last I heard he is still alive and dangerous. I have outlined in the past the W-2's in this thread. The response was - he was a thief. The cost of living? I can't remember what I paid for rent in 1971 for myself and my children. The tax reports where NOT detailed unless you where claiming lots of Dr. bills and interest on loans. Duane divorces one wife and remarries within 2 months. I would not know how to separate all of this out on joint tax reports. How do I know who had what and who incurred the Dr.s bills. Duane Weber and KC cannot be compared and that is what you are asking me to do. They had different lifestyles. A thief spends his money a little differently than the guy who leads a quiet life like KC. Duane travels and spents lots of money on bars, women, expensive gifts, hotels, trips - etc. His lifestyle in those days would be hard to track. I have listed his income of the important yrs of 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972 and to go beyond involves the private lives of a wife and children who like myself have been victimized by Weber. What I wanted was for the FBI to verify a safety deposit box from 1980 to 1990. I am told by the agent of record a few yrs ago, the FBI can't access safe deposite box records. In 1996 the FBI should have been able to track the box real easy and the plane ticket to a midwest state...all it would have taken was my permission to access the account records. Now 15 yrs later I don't remember which account the ticket was charged to and the credit card records from 1990 have been deleted. Traces of boxes closed in 1990 are no longer available. How convenient the FBI just sits ON THINGS until it is TOO late! Yet, they go on about a new suspect for about a yr and then the Cooper Sleuths peg the suspect as a big "NO" from the moment the FBI announces their supsect. The FBI spent over a yr investigating a man that was too young and his accusor claimed he had the comics on his refrigerator....When I heard this I just laughed. The Cooper Comics had not been discussed until this thread came into existence and Carr mentions them on the FBI web sight. Suddenly the FBI has a suspect on the radar with comics on his refrigerator! Because of his age and the picture it was a NO. The Comic thing just added a big slap to the face of the FBI. Now, Ted Braden was a good match - knowledge, opportunity and appearance - other than the eyes. I still feel it is very hard to state Dark brown (piercing) eyes and the suspect have hazel eyes. Witnesses are NOT alwyays reliable, but this was not just a man who goes into a bank and robs a teller. This is a man who held hostages for hours in the confines of a plane...(pre-surveilance camera days).Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #27131 November 5, 2011 Quote Quote Quote TK - "Amboy chute is not silk but a first generation nylon parachute" Quote TK agrees with you. What is "first generation nylon" I think he means the first nylon parachutes made after they stopped using silk. I'm not the expert on chutes, that's for sure. However.... The 'I Told You So' Department: I was ridiculed (okay...CHALLENGED) when I pointed out that the Amboy chute could not be made of silk because silk is biodegradable and not being packed, it would have soon rotted in the cold, wet ground of Washington state. Yet the FBI continued to leave that explanation on their website and in press releases. Since 2008, no less. To make things worse, para-packer Earl Cossey is on record giving this same reason (silk, not nylon) as to WHY it could not be Cooper's. I also offered a possible reason why the FBI would just do a cursory investigation on the chute and then dismiss it. To admit the Amboy chute could be Cooper's, they would have to retract their position that Cooper died in the Columbia and that's how the money ended up at Tena Bar. Also, they would have to admit that Cooper got away with it, because you need a live person to bury a parachute. Sure, the money could be explained away by saying he died. But not the buried parachute. This, and the recent Marla Cooper claim, (and other stuff) is why I sometimes question the FBI's position on things they say are 'official' in the case. *Question Everything* Woah there Nelly. I've got my questions about the Amboy chute as well - but where does Tom Kaye say he looked at the Amboy chute? Maybe i missed it but I don't see where his team had first hand knowledge or inspected the Amboy chute?? From his site: "The Amboy parachute was not available during the inspection and it was not clear if that evidence was archived in the Seattle FBI office. We concur with others who originally forwarded the idea [4], that the Amboy chute is not silk but a first generation nylon parachute. The research team has a standing offer with the FBI to return to Amboy and excavate the location where it was discovered." What research is he basing his conclusion on? Condition/ date stamp / pictures? Unless I missed something, the material makeup of the Amboy is still not definitively settled as far as I can see. it would seem a stretch without something to base the observation on - whatever that is its Ckret? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #27132 November 5, 2011 Smokin99 the solitary voice of reason again. Thanks for stopping this myth before the glimmer triplets opened the lab door and let it run amok in the village. Gee, I wish I could isolate the source of these latest missteps (who, oh who?) and try to find the reason for all this rapid, frenzied, mindless thrusting and pumping on the month of the 40th anniversary but I just can’t. I’m too stupid. While the universe shrinks with Larry, Moe and Curly (you know who they are) declaring the sky is falling and its Nylon, you (smokin99) dropped the hammer in a polite and classy way. Good for you. You’re a righteous chick. But…… I’m not nearly as classy and was utterly stunned at what I read. Where does one start with this garbage? A. What was Kaye’s opinion on the type of fabric the tie was made of? B. What type of fabric was the ‘pink’ reserve chute made of according to Kaye? C. Why would any weight be given to an opinion that agrees with others on a chute never observed? D. How desperate can one be to force a match to a pre-plotted curve? E. Are any of you people embarrass-able? F. Were these standard research techniques in college and where is this place? G. Is there an ‘I told you so’ for ridicule which was properly meted out? H. Did anyone read Bruce’s parachute articles? I. Is there a source? J. What point will ‘amateur’s’ bungling be on par with the FBI? K. Are there any lessons learned from this episode? L. Still want to claim that you verify your data? M. What will you do if the chute is silk? N. You realize what the manufacture date on the Amboy chute was right? O. Five thousand jumpers and riggers on this forum and you used how many as a secondary source? P. Think using a few of the Five Thousand jumpers and riggers on this forum would be wise? Q. Have you considered using Ronnie Milsap or Jose Feliciano? R. At what point should people be on the lookout for signs of you having a closed mind? S. Tom Kaye (WHUFFO) is more qualified than Earl Cossey (jumper, instructor and rigger)? T. Did the previous question make any part of your body tighten involuntarily? U. Getting a clue yet? V. Is it a raging clue? W. Going to look past an ocean of experience in order to land on a desert island with an answer you already have? X. Why not just go there now? Y. You think you are fooling anyone; anymore (any of you)? Z. Ever considered fiction as a much easier route? *Question everything* (way to set an example, but thanks for all the grist you guys!). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #27133 November 5, 2011 Jamie Cooper asked in a PM whether his father who allegedly sought employment at Boring might have been given a machine shop tour and picked up the metal shavings found by TK. I replied below: Would Boeing have been machining pure (not alloyed) titanium? I believe Tom K says aircraft only used titanium alloys. Bruce, have you checked with Norman to see if he machine pure titanium prior to Norjack? Snow's idea that the metal particles might have been on the rigs is worth looking at. The FBI Lab should have found the metal particles. How could they miss it? Either they were asleep at the wheel or TK scooped them. I'd bet on the latter. I doubt that the metal was put on the tie after the FBI lab work was completed. I did see a few FBI Lab screw-ups in my day. They think they are experts at everything in science and engineering and sometimes miss what an outside specialist might have found. One FBI expert I cross examined was really unqualified to render an opinion in the technical subject he testified about. They didn't always screw up. When evidence was in their technical sweet spot they did some impressive forensic work. Those spiral coiled pieces (shavings) sure look like what you'd see in a machine shop. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #27134 November 5, 2011 Farflung wrote about the Ambiy chuteQuoteQ. Have you considered using Ronnie Milsap or Jose Feliciano? You forgot The Blind Boys of Akabama. Ronnie Milsap is a ham radio operator. Doesn't that make it likely that he has an interest in DB Cooper? Don't school me about the differences between correlation and causation. They're close enough for forum work. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #27135 November 5, 2011 Whew, I can barely catch my breath or should it be breadth? This 40th anniversary just keeps giving and giving and giving. I’ve done more than my share of technical reports and analysis (all very small, much less than 4 years, actually less than 4 months each) and know the pain of answering questions from review teams and assorted technocrats in order to get the thing right or at least farther from wrong. Sure would have been nice to be my own review committee where I fielded a few softball or preferably pre rehearsed questions. But noooooooo, the boss had this ‘thing’ about being accurate, honest, reliable…. Blah, blah, blah. You know the type. Sure is nice to find an Oasis away from genuine discovery, independent thought, research and development. It was too hard and made me sad and a little bit cry. Could some skydivers spare a few words and explain the characteristics of a “Ripstock-type” parachute? I realize that georger and RobertMBlevins are both painfully aware of this type of system since they are part of the Amboy canopy, rapid analysis team. I would like an answer from a jumper this time, just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #27136 November 5, 2011 Ripstop is a special weave of nylon that has perpendicular larger stronger reinforcing threads woven in at intervals among the smaller threads. The larger stronger threads help prevent a hole or tear in the woven fabric from propagating as a rip to the next seam. You see ripstop on better quality nylon parkas and sleeping bags. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripstop When I started jumping there were still a few surplus 24 foot non ripstop canopies used as reserves. Their fabric looked and felt like silk and was called nylon twill. The twill reserves were killers, sometimes ripping during a terminal velocity deployment. I think they were designed for paratrooper use where a terminal velocity reserve deployment was very unlikely to happen. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #27137 November 5, 2011 RobertMBlevins sez: “Neither Georger or I can 'analyze' the Amboy chute because the only thing to go on is the testimony of Cossey” (Cossey the jumper, instructor, rigger) versus Kaye (WHUFFO) Don’t forget to add that you and georger are eminently and totally unqualified to attempt such a task. Makes me wonder about just how you two select a proctologist. Has either one of you noticed that there are many skydivers and riggers on this forum who could honestly, quickly and accurately identify the fabric and weave? How is such a resource so consistently squandered if not for your desire to align with an answer you like as opposed to one which is true but does not support your pre-selected suspect? Recall the Dan Cooper comic in 1951? Didn’t YOU verify through grueling interview techniques, with a living witness, that this was a true and accurate statement? How’d that work out? What exactly is the ‘value adding component’ you or georger would bring to such an exercise? A couple more ‘empty vessel’ votes on a subject you two should have abstained from? Think there is some credibility gained through the addition of numerous people with an ‘opinion’ on a subject which they hold exactly zero knowledge? You know, like being a fanboi? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #27138 November 5, 2011 Jerry Thomas says he has seen the Amboy canopy. I asked him to describe it but he never did. As an Army parachutist and skydiver, he'd know what the fabric was made of and what type of canopy it was (person or cargo). I want to know if it had risers at the end of the suspension lines and what the fittings looked like that connected the risers to a harness. The fittings would could rule out any of the DBC chutes if they were Capewell release fittings. Come on Jerry or Ckret. All we need is a photo of the riser end hardware (if there were any risers attached to the canopy) and we may be able to rule out DBC regardless of silk, nylon, or Farflung's personal favorites: spandex, rubber and satin.377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #27139 November 5, 2011 RobertMBlevins continues to dig with: “I said clearly it should be done by outside experts on parachutes.” Like Tom Kaye? You jumped at the thought that TK (quoting georger, secret initials are so James Bond-y) said the Amboy artifact was nylon even though TK didn’t touch or see the thing. TK also didn’t mention what the reserve chute was made out of that he did touch (reference previous RIPSTOCK-Type chute). Is this the type of outside (something wrong with the skydiving crowd inside this forum?) expert you clearly sought? These are but a fraction of the angles that apparent incongruity could be viewed. Ever consider a mea culpa? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #27140 November 6, 2011 RobertMBlevins astonishes with: “Kaye, but with chute experts along, might work.” Good choice sticking with Kaye (inventor of the RIPSTOCK-type chute) and some ‘experts’ (jumpers, instructors, riggers) might work (not sure yet); but aren’t really necessary, so I guess Kaye and it doesn’t really matter if he even sees the chute. Just like yesterday. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJpyG3PXoKw Semper Fanboi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #27141 November 6, 2011 You jumped at the thought that TK (quoting georger, secret initials are so James Bond-y) Leave me out of your cynical shit, Son-of-Snow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #27129 November 5, 2011 Quote Quote TK - "Amboy chute is not silk but a first generation nylon parachute" Quote TK agrees with you. What is "first generation nylon" I think he means the first nylon parachutes made after they stopped using silk. I'm not the expert on chutes, that's for sure. However.... The 'I Told You So' Department: I was ridiculed (okay...CHALLENGED) when I pointed out that the Amboy chute could not be made of silk because silk is biodegradable and not being packed, it would have soon rotted in the cold, wet ground of Washington state. Yet the FBI continued to leave that explanation on their website and in press releases. Since 2008, no less. To make things worse, para-packer Earl Cossey is on record giving this same reason (silk, not nylon) as to WHY it could not be Cooper's. I also offered a possible reason why the FBI would just do a cursory investigation on the chute and then dismiss it. To admit the Amboy chute could be Cooper's, they would have to retract their position that Cooper died in the Columbia and that's how the money ended up at Tena Bar. Also, they would have to admit that Cooper got away with it, because you need a live person to bury a parachute. Sure, the money could be explained away by saying he died. But not the buried parachute. This, and the recent Marla Cooper claim, (and other stuff) is why I sometimes question the FBI's position on things they say are 'official' in the case. *Question Everything* Woah there Nelly. I've got my questions about the Amboy chute as well - but where does Tom Kaye say he looked at the Amboy chute? Maybe i missed it but I don't see where his team had first hand knowledge or inspected the Amboy chute?? From his site: "The Amboy parachute was not available during the inspection and it was not clear if that evidence was archived in the Seattle FBI office. We concur with others who originally forwarded the idea [4], that the Amboy chute is not silk but a first generation nylon parachute. The research team has a standing offer with the FBI to return to Amboy and excavate the location where it was discovered." What research is he basing his conclusion on? Condition/ date stamp / pictures? Unless I missed something, the material makeup of the Amboy is still not definitively settled as far as I can see.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #27130 November 5, 2011 Quote I also offered a possible reason why the FBI would just do a cursory investigation on the chute and then dismiss it. To admit the Amboy chute could be Cooper's, they would have to retract their position that Cooper died in the Columbia and that's how the money ended up at Tena Bar. Also, they would have to admit that Cooper got away with it, because you need a live person to bury a parachute. Sure, the money could be explained away by saying he died. But not the buried parachute. This, and the recent Marla Cooper claim, (and other stuff) is why I sometimes question the FBI's position on things they say are 'official' in the case. *Question Everything* I just had a 2 1/2 hour conversation with someone regarding WHY the FBI's position on certain subjects are so Wishy Washy. It all comes down to "The FBI is hiding something". That is aways the consensus unless they want to admit to just being Stupid. 40 yrs and they offer little more than they did 35 yrs ago. A good close up-picture of a tie clasp should have been done, but they did NOTHING of the sort. A vague picture with NO mention of the grade of "pearl" or the content of the metal. If they do not want to analyze the tac - then give the public a magnified picture of the clasp alone. A close-up of the clasp might have found Cooper yrs ago, but the FBI keeps secrets and now Father time keeps them. I will address your question about WHY I do NOT post documents. Number one I am lousy at scanning documents and too much would have to be blacked out like the FBI does. Remember that Duane had a wife and stepchildren. I would put myself at great risk by posting tax reports and W-2's. Also, something like the IOU - I was told to beware of this man...last I heard he is still alive and dangerous. I have outlined in the past the W-2's in this thread. The response was - he was a thief. The cost of living? I can't remember what I paid for rent in 1971 for myself and my children. The tax reports where NOT detailed unless you where claiming lots of Dr. bills and interest on loans. Duane divorces one wife and remarries within 2 months. I would not know how to separate all of this out on joint tax reports. How do I know who had what and who incurred the Dr.s bills. Duane Weber and KC cannot be compared and that is what you are asking me to do. They had different lifestyles. A thief spends his money a little differently than the guy who leads a quiet life like KC. Duane travels and spents lots of money on bars, women, expensive gifts, hotels, trips - etc. His lifestyle in those days would be hard to track. I have listed his income of the important yrs of 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972 and to go beyond involves the private lives of a wife and children who like myself have been victimized by Weber. What I wanted was for the FBI to verify a safety deposit box from 1980 to 1990. I am told by the agent of record a few yrs ago, the FBI can't access safe deposite box records. In 1996 the FBI should have been able to track the box real easy and the plane ticket to a midwest state...all it would have taken was my permission to access the account records. Now 15 yrs later I don't remember which account the ticket was charged to and the credit card records from 1990 have been deleted. Traces of boxes closed in 1990 are no longer available. How convenient the FBI just sits ON THINGS until it is TOO late! Yet, they go on about a new suspect for about a yr and then the Cooper Sleuths peg the suspect as a big "NO" from the moment the FBI announces their supsect. The FBI spent over a yr investigating a man that was too young and his accusor claimed he had the comics on his refrigerator....When I heard this I just laughed. The Cooper Comics had not been discussed until this thread came into existence and Carr mentions them on the FBI web sight. Suddenly the FBI has a suspect on the radar with comics on his refrigerator! Because of his age and the picture it was a NO. The Comic thing just added a big slap to the face of the FBI. Now, Ted Braden was a good match - knowledge, opportunity and appearance - other than the eyes. I still feel it is very hard to state Dark brown (piercing) eyes and the suspect have hazel eyes. Witnesses are NOT alwyays reliable, but this was not just a man who goes into a bank and robs a teller. This is a man who held hostages for hours in the confines of a plane...(pre-surveilance camera days).Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #27131 November 5, 2011 Quote Quote Quote TK - "Amboy chute is not silk but a first generation nylon parachute" Quote TK agrees with you. What is "first generation nylon" I think he means the first nylon parachutes made after they stopped using silk. I'm not the expert on chutes, that's for sure. However.... The 'I Told You So' Department: I was ridiculed (okay...CHALLENGED) when I pointed out that the Amboy chute could not be made of silk because silk is biodegradable and not being packed, it would have soon rotted in the cold, wet ground of Washington state. Yet the FBI continued to leave that explanation on their website and in press releases. Since 2008, no less. To make things worse, para-packer Earl Cossey is on record giving this same reason (silk, not nylon) as to WHY it could not be Cooper's. I also offered a possible reason why the FBI would just do a cursory investigation on the chute and then dismiss it. To admit the Amboy chute could be Cooper's, they would have to retract their position that Cooper died in the Columbia and that's how the money ended up at Tena Bar. Also, they would have to admit that Cooper got away with it, because you need a live person to bury a parachute. Sure, the money could be explained away by saying he died. But not the buried parachute. This, and the recent Marla Cooper claim, (and other stuff) is why I sometimes question the FBI's position on things they say are 'official' in the case. *Question Everything* Woah there Nelly. I've got my questions about the Amboy chute as well - but where does Tom Kaye say he looked at the Amboy chute? Maybe i missed it but I don't see where his team had first hand knowledge or inspected the Amboy chute?? From his site: "The Amboy parachute was not available during the inspection and it was not clear if that evidence was archived in the Seattle FBI office. We concur with others who originally forwarded the idea [4], that the Amboy chute is not silk but a first generation nylon parachute. The research team has a standing offer with the FBI to return to Amboy and excavate the location where it was discovered." What research is he basing his conclusion on? Condition/ date stamp / pictures? Unless I missed something, the material makeup of the Amboy is still not definitively settled as far as I can see. it would seem a stretch without something to base the observation on - whatever that is its Ckret? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #27132 November 5, 2011 Smokin99 the solitary voice of reason again. Thanks for stopping this myth before the glimmer triplets opened the lab door and let it run amok in the village. Gee, I wish I could isolate the source of these latest missteps (who, oh who?) and try to find the reason for all this rapid, frenzied, mindless thrusting and pumping on the month of the 40th anniversary but I just can’t. I’m too stupid. While the universe shrinks with Larry, Moe and Curly (you know who they are) declaring the sky is falling and its Nylon, you (smokin99) dropped the hammer in a polite and classy way. Good for you. You’re a righteous chick. But…… I’m not nearly as classy and was utterly stunned at what I read. Where does one start with this garbage? A. What was Kaye’s opinion on the type of fabric the tie was made of? B. What type of fabric was the ‘pink’ reserve chute made of according to Kaye? C. Why would any weight be given to an opinion that agrees with others on a chute never observed? D. How desperate can one be to force a match to a pre-plotted curve? E. Are any of you people embarrass-able? F. Were these standard research techniques in college and where is this place? G. Is there an ‘I told you so’ for ridicule which was properly meted out? H. Did anyone read Bruce’s parachute articles? I. Is there a source? J. What point will ‘amateur’s’ bungling be on par with the FBI? K. Are there any lessons learned from this episode? L. Still want to claim that you verify your data? M. What will you do if the chute is silk? N. You realize what the manufacture date on the Amboy chute was right? O. Five thousand jumpers and riggers on this forum and you used how many as a secondary source? P. Think using a few of the Five Thousand jumpers and riggers on this forum would be wise? Q. Have you considered using Ronnie Milsap or Jose Feliciano? R. At what point should people be on the lookout for signs of you having a closed mind? S. Tom Kaye (WHUFFO) is more qualified than Earl Cossey (jumper, instructor and rigger)? T. Did the previous question make any part of your body tighten involuntarily? U. Getting a clue yet? V. Is it a raging clue? W. Going to look past an ocean of experience in order to land on a desert island with an answer you already have? X. Why not just go there now? Y. You think you are fooling anyone; anymore (any of you)? Z. Ever considered fiction as a much easier route? *Question everything* (way to set an example, but thanks for all the grist you guys!). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #27133 November 5, 2011 Jamie Cooper asked in a PM whether his father who allegedly sought employment at Boring might have been given a machine shop tour and picked up the metal shavings found by TK. I replied below: Would Boeing have been machining pure (not alloyed) titanium? I believe Tom K says aircraft only used titanium alloys. Bruce, have you checked with Norman to see if he machine pure titanium prior to Norjack? Snow's idea that the metal particles might have been on the rigs is worth looking at. The FBI Lab should have found the metal particles. How could they miss it? Either they were asleep at the wheel or TK scooped them. I'd bet on the latter. I doubt that the metal was put on the tie after the FBI lab work was completed. I did see a few FBI Lab screw-ups in my day. They think they are experts at everything in science and engineering and sometimes miss what an outside specialist might have found. One FBI expert I cross examined was really unqualified to render an opinion in the technical subject he testified about. They didn't always screw up. When evidence was in their technical sweet spot they did some impressive forensic work. Those spiral coiled pieces (shavings) sure look like what you'd see in a machine shop. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #27134 November 5, 2011 Farflung wrote about the Ambiy chuteQuoteQ. Have you considered using Ronnie Milsap or Jose Feliciano? You forgot The Blind Boys of Akabama. Ronnie Milsap is a ham radio operator. Doesn't that make it likely that he has an interest in DB Cooper? Don't school me about the differences between correlation and causation. They're close enough for forum work. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #27135 November 5, 2011 Whew, I can barely catch my breath or should it be breadth? This 40th anniversary just keeps giving and giving and giving. I’ve done more than my share of technical reports and analysis (all very small, much less than 4 years, actually less than 4 months each) and know the pain of answering questions from review teams and assorted technocrats in order to get the thing right or at least farther from wrong. Sure would have been nice to be my own review committee where I fielded a few softball or preferably pre rehearsed questions. But noooooooo, the boss had this ‘thing’ about being accurate, honest, reliable…. Blah, blah, blah. You know the type. Sure is nice to find an Oasis away from genuine discovery, independent thought, research and development. It was too hard and made me sad and a little bit cry. Could some skydivers spare a few words and explain the characteristics of a “Ripstock-type” parachute? I realize that georger and RobertMBlevins are both painfully aware of this type of system since they are part of the Amboy canopy, rapid analysis team. I would like an answer from a jumper this time, just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #27136 November 5, 2011 Ripstop is a special weave of nylon that has perpendicular larger stronger reinforcing threads woven in at intervals among the smaller threads. The larger stronger threads help prevent a hole or tear in the woven fabric from propagating as a rip to the next seam. You see ripstop on better quality nylon parkas and sleeping bags. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripstop When I started jumping there were still a few surplus 24 foot non ripstop canopies used as reserves. Their fabric looked and felt like silk and was called nylon twill. The twill reserves were killers, sometimes ripping during a terminal velocity deployment. I think they were designed for paratrooper use where a terminal velocity reserve deployment was very unlikely to happen. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #27137 November 5, 2011 RobertMBlevins sez: “Neither Georger or I can 'analyze' the Amboy chute because the only thing to go on is the testimony of Cossey” (Cossey the jumper, instructor, rigger) versus Kaye (WHUFFO) Don’t forget to add that you and georger are eminently and totally unqualified to attempt such a task. Makes me wonder about just how you two select a proctologist. Has either one of you noticed that there are many skydivers and riggers on this forum who could honestly, quickly and accurately identify the fabric and weave? How is such a resource so consistently squandered if not for your desire to align with an answer you like as opposed to one which is true but does not support your pre-selected suspect? Recall the Dan Cooper comic in 1951? Didn’t YOU verify through grueling interview techniques, with a living witness, that this was a true and accurate statement? How’d that work out? What exactly is the ‘value adding component’ you or georger would bring to such an exercise? A couple more ‘empty vessel’ votes on a subject you two should have abstained from? Think there is some credibility gained through the addition of numerous people with an ‘opinion’ on a subject which they hold exactly zero knowledge? You know, like being a fanboi? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #27138 November 5, 2011 Jerry Thomas says he has seen the Amboy canopy. I asked him to describe it but he never did. As an Army parachutist and skydiver, he'd know what the fabric was made of and what type of canopy it was (person or cargo). I want to know if it had risers at the end of the suspension lines and what the fittings looked like that connected the risers to a harness. The fittings would could rule out any of the DBC chutes if they were Capewell release fittings. Come on Jerry or Ckret. All we need is a photo of the riser end hardware (if there were any risers attached to the canopy) and we may be able to rule out DBC regardless of silk, nylon, or Farflung's personal favorites: spandex, rubber and satin.377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #27139 November 5, 2011 RobertMBlevins continues to dig with: “I said clearly it should be done by outside experts on parachutes.” Like Tom Kaye? You jumped at the thought that TK (quoting georger, secret initials are so James Bond-y) said the Amboy artifact was nylon even though TK didn’t touch or see the thing. TK also didn’t mention what the reserve chute was made out of that he did touch (reference previous RIPSTOCK-Type chute). Is this the type of outside (something wrong with the skydiving crowd inside this forum?) expert you clearly sought? These are but a fraction of the angles that apparent incongruity could be viewed. Ever consider a mea culpa? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #27140 November 6, 2011 RobertMBlevins astonishes with: “Kaye, but with chute experts along, might work.” Good choice sticking with Kaye (inventor of the RIPSTOCK-type chute) and some ‘experts’ (jumpers, instructors, riggers) might work (not sure yet); but aren’t really necessary, so I guess Kaye and it doesn’t really matter if he even sees the chute. Just like yesterday. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJpyG3PXoKw Semper Fanboi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #27141 November 6, 2011 You jumped at the thought that TK (quoting georger, secret initials are so James Bond-y) Leave me out of your cynical shit, Son-of-Snow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryThomas 0 #27142 November 6, 2011 Jo: Pasternick Did his research based on your lies.If he had read MaX GUNTHERS bOOK AND A FEW OTHERS. he would have known the truth about you. Unfortunatly. You being the Scam artist that you are ( You and Duane made a good team). Doug would have not done the article. If geofrey Garay new what he does now , you would not even be in his book. Check pages 1109 and 1110 , You were able to pull the wool over his Eyes and to many others.Its time for you to stop your stories. You have been doing it for over 15 yrs.The only reason you have done this is to save face. Too late Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryThomas 0 #27143 November 6, 2011 377. Jamie Cooper's Father was not the Hyjacker. He is just trying to make a name for hisself for finacial purposes and 15 minutes of fame. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryThomas 0 #27144 November 6, 2011 Blevins: The Amboy Chute is of no value. Iv'e seen it the detoration was not significant enough to have been from the time frame in question. Still why do you still post on dropzone your book and your suspect is a failure.What surprises me is that a man of your intelligence would even think that a Airline pilot could have been Cooper. All airline pilots knew how tio open the rear stair door. Still you caim that your suspect was troo Stupid to Know this. WHY?. Better yet why did you even write the book.(Money) . You have never believed anything that you have published in your book." You want Proof: ,All you, or! anyone else has to do is read your past post.If any one wants to question my statement all they have to do is read all of Blevins past post.I know for a fact he, even! credits jo Webber's candidate as a posibility of being Cooper. Still. A lot of BS! Jerry PS Blevins , If you want to do a real story on a true suspect that realy could be Cooper ! Do it on Vicki Wilsons Father. He fits the profile and he has not been seen since 71. this Type of suspect is who we all should be looking for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #27145 November 6, 2011 Quote About the comic: I told History Channel that the comic was an interesting coincidence and nothing more. I followed that up by saying that we now knew KC did NOT see it on Shemya. In the original version of the you-know-what-with-a-cardboard-cover, we DID. You NEVER did in anything to acknowledge the DZ and those who made YOU aware of the information about the comic information being erroneous. Yet, it is YOU who continues to badger me about making records PUBLIC regarding Duane Weber's financials. There are those on this thread who are tired of hearing my story and what they consider to be teases, but YOU take the cake when you come back and ACT like you did this or that and YOU NEVER acknowledge to the public when you have made errors and nor do you acknowledge who was responsible for finding your errors. YOU make it ALL about YOU. How does it feel to get a little of what you have been dishing out. You can't even acknowledge how you acquired the knowledge that allows you to write a book about a subject you went into having little knowledge of. You also do NOT acknowledge even in the thread - that you acquired certain knowledge and information from the participants of this thread, AFTER you did the first version of your book, you rewrote the book. YET, you have not publically acknowledged this thread and the jumpers and fact keepers who participate in the DZ. This makes you as phoney as a counterfit $20 supposedly signed by Cooper. Start acknowledging your sources to the public and in this forum or someone is going to do it for you in public and you might not be too happy with that. It won't be me, but there are those who lurk here that just might call you out publically.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryThomas 0 #27146 November 6, 2011 Jo. Anything that you tell anyone about this case involving you or Duane is a Lie/Fabrication. Guess what you can't even blaim it on memory loss or false memories due to age. You have been telling these lies of yours for too many years.You Know what you have done and what you are doing.Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #27147 November 6, 2011 Jerry, Simple question: Did the Amboy canopy have risers? If so what type of metal fitting was on the harness side of the risers? Was it a Capewell fitting? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #27148 November 6, 2011 The same way a skydiver can identify a chute by attachments or design, so can others in regard to their hobbies. Like suggested about the appraisers on Antiques Roadshow (no threat to my obvious Hunkyness that I watch it). So here’s as far as I could get and need help (code for smokin99 and her ilk) with this little crosscheck (gasp!). There is some ambiguity about the date Cooper’s tie was manufactured and or sold (as in a single interview from the 70’s). So I thought I would begin with a little corporate history on this piece of haberdashery. Prepare to be bored stiff. The ‘Pennys’ logo on Cooper’s tie was used from 1964 to 1971 and gives a rough first cut at the vintage of the tie. I know, big help that they quit using the logo in 1971. The logo previous was ‘Penny’s’ (with an apostrophe) and after was ‘JCPennys’ in the Helvetica font. Isn’t that fascinating? Next I blundered upon some other Towncraft items which were dated in the mid 60’s and had a different design than the Cooper tie Towncraft logo (see attach- Tie One On). Then I realized I may be too technical with this label. The website below has several examples of Towncraft garments and some associated dates (decades) which have the later design in the 70’s which could (just could) narrow the manufacture window to 1970 to 1971 if the appraisals of the clothing is accurate. One of the later Towncraft labels was identified with the 60’s so it may all be moot. http://www.vintagetrends.com/search/thumbnails.asp (search – Towncraft) to view 42 label examples and dates. Perhaps some experts can tell by color or pattern what year some of these things were produced (who knows). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #27149 November 7, 2011 This is interesting...if this is Jo's Duane, then looks like he was no stranger to the St. Pete authorities before the 1957 episode...... From the Canton Repository, Canton, OH Jan 31, 1949 London, O. - .....Duane Weber, 25, who left the farm's honor camp (smokin sez: this would be the London Prison Farm, London, Ohio) last November, was arrested in St. Petersburg, Fla., for petit larceny and returned here. He was sentenced from Cleveland in 1947 to serve one to seven years for grand larceny. He will have to serve two years extra. This excerpt was the third paragraph in an article about another fugitive who had turned himself back in to the farm. Looks like this is saying that Duane was sentenced to the farm for grand larceny, 1-7 years in Cleveland, Ohio in 1947 - went awol or was on parole in November 1948 - and was sent back after he got arrested for petty larceny in St. Pete in January, 1949?? Jeez, that boy just couldn't keep from getting caught. Anyway..... for grins, I googled the London Prison farm and found this: The Department of Corrections originally housed BCI in the basement of the Ohio State Penitentiary in Columbus, Ohio until a fire and subsequent threat of riot by inmates in 1930 forced a move to the London Prison Farm.[1] During those early years, inmate labor performed most of the work. Interestingly, archives show these inmates reviewing, indexing and sorting fingerprint records. In the 1940s, BCI also had a printing press, and used inmate labor to produce the book entitled, "The Science of Fingerprint Classification: As Taught and Used in the Ohio State Bureau of Identification and Investigation." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_Bureau_of_Criminal_Identification_and_Investigation lol...talk about letting the foxes guard the hen house but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #27150 November 7, 2011 QuoteThis is interesting...if this is Jo's Duane, then looks like he was no stranger to the St. Pete authorities before the 1957 episode...... From the Canton Repository, Canton, OH Jan 31, 1949 London, O. - .....Duane Weber, 25, who left the farm's honor camp (smokin sez: this would be the London Prison Farm, London, Ohio) last November, was arrested in St. Petersburg, Fla., for petit larceny and returned here. He was sentenced from Cleveland in 1947 to serve one to seven years for grand larceny. He will have to serve two years extra. That article will need some explaining. Duane Weber was arrested in ST. PETE in 1957 while on probation from SanQuentin/Folsom. So was Duane arrested 2 times in St. Pete (Treasure Island)? In 1943 Duane's parents live in Ca. near Huntington Bch. Yet, you are saying he was sentenced in 1947 in Cleveland. Yet, there are records in CA. that stated he was sentenced in 1944 to McNeil, and the records show he was released 6 months later - but instead was place in a special program per his sister and brother. Since the missing yrs on Duane are July of 1945 to 1949. I will note as I have noted before that the San Quentin and Folsom records shows the Ohio issue you stated was served concurrently with the California issues. Per the San Quentin and Folsom file it is to be concluded from the prison file that Duane SKIPPED OUT before he actually served his time in Ohio. The Ohio incident was served concurrently with the CA. incident. Added 2 yrs to his CA stay and may be why they moved him from Folsom to San Quentin for his last 2 yrs. The missing yrs on Duane are from July of 1945 to 1949. The only way I can see the family doing this was Duane was placed in an honor camp - and then escaped or ran away because he ends up in CA. The 1949 sentencing was llsted in this thread. The court records send him to San Quentin and Folsom in 1949. If Duane was on a honor farm in Ohio in 47 perhaps they sent him to the N.W. because of the family OR maybe he escaped! What stand out to me is the story about 2 guys escaping and one is killed (a story Duane told me about 2 guys and I since learned he had told me about his life in 3rd person perhaps the one that got away was himself). Could it be Ohio sent him to the N.W. because of Family issues and Duane was placed on an Honor farm in the N.W. or he just hung out in the N.W. When you guys find this London Ohio file you will find he either escaped or was sent to the N.W. and this was arranged by family members out of Chicago or Ohio. Perhaps using the name of Wenz or Wentz - his grandmothers maiden name. When Duane was arrested in 1957 in St. Pete perhaps what he claimed about the list of people in his possession was true. He told the athorities knew the people on the list - "Ask Them, They know me". His Uncle had a winter home or resort home there. His name would be Lyman and his wife's name Naomi. After Lyman died Naomi remarried and moved to St. Pete. She died there as did her new husband. This is the only thing that would explain his being arrested twice in St. Pete and is logical.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
