JerryThomas 0 #27251 November 11, 2011 Amazon: Realy : S H O C K E D > your realy one of the guys or should I say welcome to the club . Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryThomas 0 #27252 November 11, 2011 Jo : Is this response like the Mafia or some pastry cook book Recipe or better yet Throwing money off the I 5 Bridge or Green mountain or many other lies like the ledbetter mansion on Lacamas lake that I will prove, that you have told about me in the resent past. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryThomas 0 #27253 November 11, 2011 Jo : You have a lot to explain if you continue these lies of your's . I can and will prove you a wonderfull fiction writer, Are you sure you, do not want to pursue a career in fiction writing . All those that no you thinks that you could write a better book than that of Ha Ha By DB Cooper or The one by Max Gunther. The only thing is you will have to come up with is different stories than the ones you have taken from there books. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #27254 November 11, 2011 QuoteJo : You have a lot to explain if you continue these lies of your's . I can and will prove you a wonderfull fiction writer, Are you sure you, do not want to pursue a career in fiction writing . All those that no you thinks that you could write a better book than that of Ha Ha By DB Cooper or The one by Max Gunther. The only thing is you will have to come up with is different stories than the ones you have taken from there books. Jerry Elvis has left the building. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryThomas 0 #27255 November 11, 2011 Geoger: Did you know that DropZone had a feature called just incase you missed my post. I didn't Untill a couple minutes ago. Jo showed me this option ,when she made a threatining post , I still can't figure out how she did it .Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryThomas 0 #27256 November 11, 2011 Jo: Your( just in case I missed your post). Was interesting, I will do the right thing . If you wish to Sue by all means please do. I only own one home in Florida at this time . I wouldn't mind Owning 2 it is up to you. Just bear in mind that all will be made public to include all your post and fiction. Sorry your chances of winning is 0- 0 , when you make your threats make sure you have grounds in this case you have none. So if you think you do go for it. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ClassClown 0 #27257 November 11, 2011 Jerry vs Jo, geez is this getting old. ...................................Can you two just get a room?.........................Blevins, DB Cooper died that night....................the elements and animals took care of the corpse...............the chute is buried under muck somewhere...................the money made it's way via waterways and natural occurances however strange to all of us it may be....................have I forgot anything? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #27258 November 11, 2011 Quote Quote Jo All a polygraph will prove is that Duane had nothing to do with the hyjacking and you have made up your stories. You know this so what is this Bs of your's . You also know that a polygraph is nothing but yes and no answers.Face it Jo the truth is you have lied about Duanes involvement in this case and everyone knows it . I say Take the test.Jerry Jerry, You take the cake - I offer up what you have baggered me with for yrs and your theme through-out your postings in this thread. NOW that I am willing to do it - you state is has no value which is exactly what I have stated over and over to you in this thread and what others have told you. Your stating the above only re-affirms your only purpose in this chase is to - disengage and destroy and interrogate orYet, you have cost me yrs of my life and you have threatened me over and over. One would have to wonder why when I OFFER up what you have badgered me with for yrs, Why? NOW you dismiss it with the arguments I and others provided as to WHY a polygraph would be of no value other than to prove I believe Duane was Cooper and that I have not lied. The cost of a retired FBI agent to do this test is from $700 to $1200, but maybe more. If the FBI is willing to pay the bill tell them to CALL me. You claim to have a PERSONAL relationship with Curtis Eng. Why don't you tell him to have the FBI pay for it. GEEZE what a waste of time you are! I put up and you coward into a corner. You are nobody now and I know this sounds cruel, but it is the truth. What you have put me through from 1996 to 2001 when I ended the useless relationship and then you came to the thread about 5 yrs ago with your only objective being to attack me with every post I made. WHY? I am not the one OFF her Rocker here - you are. I am not delusional - you are. You have fed off of every book writer and researcher in the Cooper story - WHY? You have taken any useful research anyone has done and made it all about YOU. You have caused valuable time and research to be ignored with your self-centered interactions. Those are not my words, but the words of a journalist in WA who told me he will NOT talk with you. NOW you need to think about this REAL hard...as it was NOT the first time that has been said to me. You are why many individuals who really count will not be at the symposium and "we" are NOT talking about me. My health and the cost of the trip will keep me at home. My immune system might not survive the confines of an airplane and when flying I require the assistance of a wheelchair since I can't walk very far or very fast. Holiday travel is out. Have fun, but be very careful what you say and what you do - SLANDER is costly. The symposium is a public affair open to the public and unlike this thread...what you say can make you liable. You are being watched and the symposium is being recorded. This must be the post Jerry considers a threatening post. Far from it. Does he think I have some kind of magical powers - note is the exact post I made several posts back P.S. Below is the PM he sent to me: Now this is a real threat: Jo. Rest assured I will only Tell the truth I will reference all your stories you have made and posted over the past 16 years. It will be up to those that want to see the truth and listen to decide for theselves. You are a lier you know it and so do I. Take it to court ! all you have to do is pass a polygraph test . Which you can not .If you would like to attend this conference I will pay for it personally. I also will pay for a polygraph test at the conference for you and I. If you refuse this chalenge it just proves my point . Jerry Whew ! What did I say to cause him to react like that? He know he is in the wrong. That symposium is not for the purpose of threatening or accusing others of wrong doing, and doing so is SLANDER. I am sure Gray will have something to say about that and I have already made it clear I could not attend because of my health. He can tell about his search, but to mentions me in a negative way is slander since I will NOT be there to defend myself. If I was there my story would not involve Jerry - just MY story as I know it. I think someone needs to School him on a symposium. This symposium is NOT for the purpose of slandering or discrediting others. He should tell about his OWN search and leave out parts that involve second parties who will not be there to defend themselves. I will not be a party to name calling in public. Jerry does NOT get his fact straight. Even offering Eng a polygraph is not enough to shut him up. Jerry perhaps parts of what I have claimed have areadly been proven. The event will be recorded for me - after all the tV station have been invited right. Jerry's post are full of repetion and they are wroth with things he claimes out of context in regards to me. Jerry, why don't you play the tape where you spent 40 minutes calling me a liar - that is the ONLY tape you have permission to play. Any thing else you have was never given permission to made public because you would NOT shutup. YOU ARE the ONE who KEPT ON and ON that this is where we were even though I called you on them - I just gave up. Arguing with you on the phone is like telling a bully who does not comprehend English to go wash his hands. You do this right here in this thread. The Ledbetter Manison was very much a part of my story, but remember you insisted Duane and I were over on the other side of the river. Excuse me - how could I tell you the story about the LedBetter mansion and the care taker if Duane had me over on the OR side? You need some lessons in listening and comprehension. You even stated in this thread that the place that was so important to me was a shopping center in 2010. I was there in 2010 and what I saw was there. I told you about the foundations to the 3 cabins West of the Ledbetter Mansion. You denied they existed,,,but I found them in 2001 - you said I didn't. I have witnesses who were with me 3 women and 1 man (a officer of Law). Give it up Jerry. Stranger even now - that you nor the FBI had the gumption to find out the name of the caretaker who lived on the property and his background. Why don't you make that one of your projects? You might learn something. I have had my say and if you are trying to get me to say bad things it will not happen. Have a nice life Jerry, but you are NOT part of my story. Nor am I part of your story. Just leave me alone. I can't take anymore of you and I won't. Argue with yourself or whatever you do for kicks. You can stop kicking me that is for sure.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ClassClown 0 #27259 November 11, 2011 Jo, where in that PM from Jerry did he threaten you?................................................ There is no threat whatsoever. .........................................Are you smoking some left handed tobacco or what? Your posts reek of make-believe. ................................Please turn your PC off for a week or two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #27260 November 11, 2011 Jerry, You keep writing about an "airline pilot" being able to operate the door when you are conversing with Blevins about KC. I don't understand. KC wasn't a pilot. Blevins never claimed that he was. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #27261 November 11, 2011 I think Tom Kaye may be correct about aircraft titanium always being an alloy. What about pre production prototype work? Pure titanium is easier to machine than the alloys are. Might pure titanium have been used for aircraft part mockups or prototypes? If the curley coils on the tie are indeed pure titanium who was machining it and for what purpose? Could the tie have picked up the titanium from contact with Normans chutes? Norman operated a machine shop that did work for Boeing. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sailshaw 0 #27262 November 11, 2011 Quote 377: The Pilot that Jerry refers to is not trained in how to operate the 727 Aft Airstair but does know how it functions in general. However, the Flight Attendants are trained in how to operate the airstair. They are the ones that do operate the airstair and know the little operating problems and how to cope with them on a daily basis. Cooper could have read the manuals and known as much as a pilot but he needed the Flight Attendant when he could not get possibly the door to open due to slight pressure differential. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hangdiver 1 #27263 November 11, 2011 Hey Jerry...please put a name to the airline pilot you are always referring to...please...just for clarification purposes. hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hangdiver 1 #27264 November 11, 2011 Please read these uses for pure titanium.... Quote optical industry http://www.1weddingband.com/TitaniumFaqs.html just because it's on the internet doesn't necessarily mean it's true....but something struck me while reading them...it's allegedly used in optics...PPG was into optics...Braden worked for a glass company...I don't know if Snow nailed down which one but I find it interesting anyway...and you all know my dad is my pet suspect...eta: I found another link to PPG and Titanium... Quote Its most common compound, titanium dioxide, is a popular photocatalyst and is used in the manufacture of white pigments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium Just following rabbit trails... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #27265 November 11, 2011 Quote Jerry vs Jo, geez is this getting old. ...................................Can you two just get a room?.........................Blevins, DB Cooper died that night....................the elements and animals took care of the corpse...............the chute is buried under muck somewhere...................the money made it's way via waterways and natural occurances however strange to all of us it may be....................have I forgot anything? Yeah.. you forget the amount of people who jumped into the night from all types of aircraft into every kind of terrain imaginable.. with the same type of equipment in all kinds of weather and lived to tell about it. How many night jumps do YOU have Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #27266 November 11, 2011 Quote Jerry, You take the cake - I offer up what you have baggered me with for yrs and your theme through-out your postings in this thread. NOW that I am willing to do it - you state is has no value which is exactly what I have stated over and over to you in this thread and what others have told you Jerry is right, it has no value if you know exactly what will be asked and how you carefully phrase both questions and answers!! In any case a polygraph does NOT distinguish between fact and non-fact; it distinguishes between what (most people) believe to be the truth and what they believe to be lies. So if a polygraph test asks Jo, "Was Duane Cooper?" her "yes" answer will probably come up as truthful. This doesn't mean Duane was Cooper, it just means that Jo believes he was. 377 will know better, but I presume this is one of the reasons polygraphs are not admissible in court, another being that a well-rehearsed person can beat it. I must say though this sudden turnaround on the lie detector test, qualified as it may be, is interesting. Does this mean all Jo's other "evidence" has once again crumbled to dust? In other news, most of the 3 pages I missed since last check are just blah-blah-blah...FFS...Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hangdiver 1 #27267 November 11, 2011 QuoteHow many night jumps do YOU have Well...I have a few...some base...and some night Hang Gliding flights also SEL airplane flights...night aero is so cool...and scary...but I've got to get that adrenaline somehow. I know I'm not the poster you were addressing but just my 2 cents... apologies... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #27268 November 11, 2011 Quote Quote How many night jumps do YOU have Well...I have a few...some base...and some night Hang Gliding flights also SEL airplane flights...night aero is so cool...and scary...but I've got to get that adrenaline somehow. I know I'm not the poster you were addressing but just my 2 cents... apologies... hangdiver I have a bunch of them.... AMAZINGLY... I survived all of them... GO Figure Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hangdiver 1 #27269 November 11, 2011 Quote Quote Quote How many night jumps do YOU have Well...I have a few...some base...and some night Hang Gliding flights also SEL airplane flights...night aero is so cool...and scary...but I've got to get that adrenaline somehow. I know I'm not the poster you were addressing but just my 2 cents... apologies... hangdiver I have a bunch of them.... AMAZINGLY... I survived all of them... GO Figure Yep Amazon...you certainly have pushed the odds......eta: I think the night Hang Gliding flights were by far the most scary... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ClassClown 0 #27270 November 11, 2011 Quote Quote Jerry vs Jo, geez is this getting old. ...................................Can you two just get a room?.........................Blevins, DB Cooper died that night....................the elements and animals took care of the corpse...............the chute is buried under muck somewhere...................the money made it's way via waterways and natural occurances however strange to all of us it may be....................have I forgot anything? Yeah.. you forget the amount of people who jumped into the night from all types of aircraft into every kind of terrain imaginable.. with the same type of equipment in all kinds of weather and lived to tell about it. How many night jumps do YOU have I do not jump, however I go with a friend from work to different DZ's throughout the mid-west............................So while I have no personal experiance, I have had many a conversations with other jumpers........................I just do not believe he survived it that night.............just my opinion................... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #27271 November 11, 2011 Many, many military jumpers have survived night jumps in bad weather, jumping with heavy loads. Whether or not a whuffo or inexperienced sport skydiver would be able to survive is another question. This whole debate about whether or not he survived is impossible without knowing what Cooper's background was.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #27272 November 11, 2011 PPG was into optics...Braden worked for a glass company...I don't know if Snow nailed down which one but I find it interesting anyway Just following rabbit trails... hangdiver company history of PPG here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPG_Industries PPG has never made optics to my knowledge. They have supplied materials to others who do. Otherwise: which type of pure Ti do Tom/Allen have? We generally distinguish between 4 grades of commercially pure titanium which greatly depend on their oxygen content: DIN 37025 (Ti 1), DIN 37035 (Ti 2), DIN 37055 (Ti 3), DIN 37065 (Ti 4). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hangdiver 1 #27263 November 11, 2011 Hey Jerry...please put a name to the airline pilot you are always referring to...please...just for clarification purposes. hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hangdiver 1 #27264 November 11, 2011 Please read these uses for pure titanium.... Quote optical industry http://www.1weddingband.com/TitaniumFaqs.html just because it's on the internet doesn't necessarily mean it's true....but something struck me while reading them...it's allegedly used in optics...PPG was into optics...Braden worked for a glass company...I don't know if Snow nailed down which one but I find it interesting anyway...and you all know my dad is my pet suspect...eta: I found another link to PPG and Titanium... Quote Its most common compound, titanium dioxide, is a popular photocatalyst and is used in the manufacture of white pigments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium Just following rabbit trails... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #27265 November 11, 2011 Quote Jerry vs Jo, geez is this getting old. ...................................Can you two just get a room?.........................Blevins, DB Cooper died that night....................the elements and animals took care of the corpse...............the chute is buried under muck somewhere...................the money made it's way via waterways and natural occurances however strange to all of us it may be....................have I forgot anything? Yeah.. you forget the amount of people who jumped into the night from all types of aircraft into every kind of terrain imaginable.. with the same type of equipment in all kinds of weather and lived to tell about it. How many night jumps do YOU have Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #27266 November 11, 2011 Quote Jerry, You take the cake - I offer up what you have baggered me with for yrs and your theme through-out your postings in this thread. NOW that I am willing to do it - you state is has no value which is exactly what I have stated over and over to you in this thread and what others have told you Jerry is right, it has no value if you know exactly what will be asked and how you carefully phrase both questions and answers!! In any case a polygraph does NOT distinguish between fact and non-fact; it distinguishes between what (most people) believe to be the truth and what they believe to be lies. So if a polygraph test asks Jo, "Was Duane Cooper?" her "yes" answer will probably come up as truthful. This doesn't mean Duane was Cooper, it just means that Jo believes he was. 377 will know better, but I presume this is one of the reasons polygraphs are not admissible in court, another being that a well-rehearsed person can beat it. I must say though this sudden turnaround on the lie detector test, qualified as it may be, is interesting. Does this mean all Jo's other "evidence" has once again crumbled to dust? In other news, most of the 3 pages I missed since last check are just blah-blah-blah...FFS...Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hangdiver 1 #27267 November 11, 2011 QuoteHow many night jumps do YOU have Well...I have a few...some base...and some night Hang Gliding flights also SEL airplane flights...night aero is so cool...and scary...but I've got to get that adrenaline somehow. I know I'm not the poster you were addressing but just my 2 cents... apologies... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #27268 November 11, 2011 Quote Quote How many night jumps do YOU have Well...I have a few...some base...and some night Hang Gliding flights also SEL airplane flights...night aero is so cool...and scary...but I've got to get that adrenaline somehow. I know I'm not the poster you were addressing but just my 2 cents... apologies... hangdiver I have a bunch of them.... AMAZINGLY... I survived all of them... GO Figure Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hangdiver 1 #27269 November 11, 2011 Quote Quote Quote How many night jumps do YOU have Well...I have a few...some base...and some night Hang Gliding flights also SEL airplane flights...night aero is so cool...and scary...but I've got to get that adrenaline somehow. I know I'm not the poster you were addressing but just my 2 cents... apologies... hangdiver I have a bunch of them.... AMAZINGLY... I survived all of them... GO Figure Yep Amazon...you certainly have pushed the odds......eta: I think the night Hang Gliding flights were by far the most scary... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ClassClown 0 #27270 November 11, 2011 Quote Quote Jerry vs Jo, geez is this getting old. ...................................Can you two just get a room?.........................Blevins, DB Cooper died that night....................the elements and animals took care of the corpse...............the chute is buried under muck somewhere...................the money made it's way via waterways and natural occurances however strange to all of us it may be....................have I forgot anything? Yeah.. you forget the amount of people who jumped into the night from all types of aircraft into every kind of terrain imaginable.. with the same type of equipment in all kinds of weather and lived to tell about it. How many night jumps do YOU have I do not jump, however I go with a friend from work to different DZ's throughout the mid-west............................So while I have no personal experiance, I have had many a conversations with other jumpers........................I just do not believe he survived it that night.............just my opinion................... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #27271 November 11, 2011 Many, many military jumpers have survived night jumps in bad weather, jumping with heavy loads. Whether or not a whuffo or inexperienced sport skydiver would be able to survive is another question. This whole debate about whether or not he survived is impossible without knowing what Cooper's background was.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #27272 November 11, 2011 PPG was into optics...Braden worked for a glass company...I don't know if Snow nailed down which one but I find it interesting anyway Just following rabbit trails... hangdiver company history of PPG here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPG_Industries PPG has never made optics to my knowledge. They have supplied materials to others who do. Otherwise: which type of pure Ti do Tom/Allen have? We generally distinguish between 4 grades of commercially pure titanium which greatly depend on their oxygen content: DIN 37025 (Ti 1), DIN 37035 (Ti 2), DIN 37055 (Ti 3), DIN 37065 (Ti 4). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #27273 November 11, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Jerry vs Jo, geez is this getting old. ...................................Can you two just get a room?.........................Blevins, DB Cooper died that night....................the elements and animals took care of the corpse...............the chute is buried under muck somewhere...................the money made it's way via waterways and natural occurrences however strange to all of us it may be....................have I forgot anything? Yeah.. you forget the amount of people who jumped into the night from all types of aircraft into every kind of terrain imaginable.. with the same type of equipment in all kinds of weather and lived to tell about it. How many night jumps do YOU have I do not jump, however I go with a friend from work to different DZ's throughout the mid-west............................So while I have no personal experience, I have had many a conversations with other jumpers........................I just do not believe he survived it that night.............just my opinion................... Well...I have literally hundreds of night jumps with gear strapped to me in all different kinds of configurations. So far I've been successful every time, and that's flying a square canopy...it would have been even easier on a round, pull the ripcord and sit there. I believe the odds are better than even that the skyjacker, who ever he was, survived the jump...I think that since NONE of the money was ever actually found in circulation he dropped it on opening, or buried it upon landing and never recovered it. Ya gotta admit, watching the ill gotten gains of such an adventure float away in the darkness would be pretty disheartening and not something one who had planned everything 'else' so well would want to brag about...and IF he landed with it, would not diggin' a hole for the parachute and the cash, be the only sensible thing to do? I mean walking around the toolies with either a parachute or stash of cash during an extensive manhunt might tend to lower the expectation of getting away. I question the logic of those who say 'so&so' had and spent a bunch of unaccounted for money during a period of time following the hijacking. From what I understand none of the cash, the recorded serial numbers, ever went back through the national treasury. How is that possible if either Duane or KC 'spent' mysterious money they didn't earn the 'old fashion' way ? AS an experienced skydiver, I tend to believe that 'Cooper' had a pretty good 'plan' up until the jump, that he survived but 'lost control' of the money somewhere between the time he exited and the days following. He either dropped it from altitude OR he forgot where he put it...maybe after lugging it around for a while ole DB thought sticking the money in a hole by a river would be okay and an easy place to find later. ~OR maybe in the time following, he figured out the serial numbers were traceable and just said the hell with it, not worth going back for! DOH, ...so close yet so far! "SHOW ME THE MONEY!" ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #27274 November 11, 2011 Airtwardo wrote: ...it would have been even easier on a round, pull the ripcord and sit there. *** At first I thought Airtwardo was way off with this statement but then I thought about it and he is probably right. No worries about slamming into something at a speed a lot higher than the wind is blowing, no need to flare the canopy which requires good info on distance to the ground, no worries about unfixable line twists and killer spins... All things considered, a C9 military round is a pretty good choice for the jump Cooper made. I do wonder if it had a steering mod like a 4 line release. Cossey should know. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #27275 November 11, 2011 QuoteAirtwardo wrote: ...it would have been even easier on a round, pull the ripcord and sit there. *** At first I thought Airtwardo was way off with this statement but then I thought about it and he is probably right. No worries about slamming into something at a speed a lot higher than the wind is blowing, no need to flare the canopy which requires good info on distance to the ground, no worries about unfixable line twists and killer spins... All things considered, a C9 military round is a pretty good choice for the jump Cooper made. I do wonder if it had a steering mod like a 4 line release. Cossey should know. 377 was there a machine shop inside the chute cooper pulled out? could some of the particles on the tie have come \ from exposure to the canopy pulled out? did cossey do maching working with Ti etc ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
