DB Cooper

[airtwardo 7]

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Airtwardo wrote: ...it would have been even easier on a round, pull the ripcord and sit there. ***

At first I thought Airtwardo was way off with this statement but then I thought about it and he is probably right. No worries about slamming into something at a speed a lot higher than the wind is blowing, no need to flare the canopy which requires good info on distance to the ground, no worries about unfixable line twists and killer spins...

All things considered, a C9 military round is a pretty good choice for the jump Cooper made. I do wonder if it had a steering mod like a 4 line release. Cossey should know.

377

Interesting question...but if it did have a 4-line, putting him in the saddle at night, I would have to wonder IF he would even see it, know what it was or how to use it.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[georger 244]

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Airtwardo wrote: ...it would have been even easier on a round, pull the ripcord and sit there. ***

At first I thought Airtwardo was way off with this statement but then I thought about it and he is probably right. No worries about slamming into something at a speed a lot higher than the wind is blowing, no need to flare the canopy which requires good info on distance to the ground, no worries about unfixable line twists and killer spins...

All things considered, a C9 military round is a pretty good choice for the jump Cooper made. I do wonder if it had a steering mod like a 4 line release. Cossey should know.

377

Interesting question...but if it did have a 4-line, putting him in the saddle at night, I would have to wonder IF he would even see it, know what it was or how to use it.

377 is ALWAYS looking for some obscure
improbable explanation for the ordinary ?
attorney gobblewobble.

In the real world, the moment Cooper pulled
that chute out to cut lines, that chute contained
and distributed particulate matter unquestionably,
which is distributed to everything in the area
including Cooper's tie, whether he was wearing it or
just nearby. Cossey's chute is probably the source
for some of the particles found on the tie -not all
but some.

What matterials are to be found in Cossey shop
or packing area?

Its common sense.

[airtwardo 7]

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Airtwardo wrote: ...it would have been even easier on a round, pull the ripcord and sit there. ***

At first I thought Airtwardo was way off with this statement but then I thought about it and he is probably right. No worries about slamming into something at a speed a lot higher than the wind is blowing, no need to flare the canopy which requires good info on distance to the ground, no worries about unfixable line twists and killer spins...

All things considered, a C9 military round is a pretty good choice for the jump Cooper made. I do wonder if it had a steering mod like a 4 line release. Cossey should know.

377

was there a machine shop inside the chute cooper
pulled out?

could some of the particles on the tie have come \
from exposure to the canopy pulled out? did cossey
do machine working with Ti etc ?

~~looking for some obscure improbable explanation for the ordinary



I understand that for conversation sake discussion of any & all 'clues' if of consequence.

However, ones that can be explained away with any number of possible scenarios seems a waste of effort when that much weight is given them.

Who knows, may a shaving fell off an engine that was being replaced and found its way inside...maybe a passenger 100 flights prior had it fall off a shoe and it had been wandering around that AC for months...maybe maybe baby.

I worked as a supervisor in an aerospace plant in San Diego for 20 years, tiny sharp ti shavings were always in my clothes and on my shoes. They would sometimes travel quite a distance from the plant with me and end up in the strangest of places.


Again I ask the much more interesting question of why no money stolen was ever returned to circulation...questions of that type IMHO have more bearing historically speaking than the temperature of the ice cubes in Cooper's drink, or any of the other multitudes of tiny details that may or may not have anything to do with the who & how & what happened.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[georger 244]

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Jerry,

You keep writing about an "airline pilot" being able to operate the door when you are conversing with Blevins about KC. I don't understand. KC wasn't a pilot. Blevins never claimed that he was.

377

REPENT! THE DAY OF RECKONING IS NEAR!

ONLY 12 DAYS LEFT -

[377 22]

Georger wrote:

Quote

377 is ALWAYS looking for some obscure
improbable explanation for the ordinary ?
attorney gobblewobble.

In the real world, the moment Cooper pulled
that chute out to cut lines, that chute contained
and distributed particulate matter unquestionably,
which is distributed to everything in the area
including Cooper's tie, whether he was wearing it or
just nearby. Cossey's chute is probably the source
for some of the particles found on the tie -not all
but some.

What matterials are to be found in Cossey shop
or packing area?

Its common sense.

Georger,

Did you miss the part where the two Cooper chutes were allegedly taken to the plane from Norman Hayden (who then owned and still runs a machine shop), not from Cossey's rigging loft? Hayden still has the main chute not used, with Cossey's signature on the packing card. It is stored in his machine shop.

Norman Hayden worked on stuff for Boeing. Dunno if he was machining pure titanium pre Norjack but it's sure worth asking.

Snow suggests:

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first: TK doesn't have the provenance of the Rigs right. Someone needs to educate the scientist

two: We have another piece of gear that was on the plane with Cooper. Hayden's rig. It was also alongside the rig that cooper actually took, for some unknown length of time (years?)

So: the obvious scientist thing to do:

TK has to analyze the cloth on Hayden's rig for Titanium.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Georger wrote

Quote

REPENT! THE DAY OF RECKONING IS NEAR!

ONLY 12 DAYS LEFT -

Did you get Harold Camping's job?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Airtwardo wrote

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Again I ask the much more interesting question of why no money stolen was ever returned to circulation...questions of that type IMHO have more bearing historically speaking than the temperature of the ice cubes in Cooper's drink, or any of the other multitudes of tiny details that may or may not have anything to do with the who & how & what happened.

I wonder what the history is on non sequentially numbered crime proceed currency being detected in general circulation?

I'll bet the detection rate is dismal. Today OCR would make it a lot simpler.

Can you imagine how taxing it would be to manually compare each twenty to a list of ten thousand recorded non sequential serial numbers? Nobody but the US Treasury would put in the time needed and even they might balk, regardless of what the FBI was requesting.

Airtwardo, you've made night jumps with payloads. You have a good idea of the materials Cooper had available to him to contain and secure the currency. How do you see the loss of money happening?

Would the exit forces actually break a piece of suspension line cut from the reserve? Would they tear a bank bag open?

I guess it could be as simple as Cooper being lousy at knots. Every Boy Scout remembers how to tie a bowline, a very secure and easy to tie and easy to undo knot. Maybe Cooper never went through Scouting, boot camp or OCS.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[airtwardo 7]

Can you imagine how taxing it would be to manually compare each twenty to a list of ten thousand recorded non sequential serial numbers? Nobody but the US Treasury would put in the time needed and even they might balk, regardless of what the FBI was requesting.

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I could be wrong, but from what I understand all monies that go into the treasury to be destroyed/replaced are serial number recorded, that no two bills will ever exist with the same serial numbers.

Also since the serial numbers on the 10,000 bills is really the best way to trace where & how they would be used, who may be using them... I think it's a fair assumption that yes they were being watched for hard.


You 377, know as well as I do the opening shock from a jet exit could have been anything from a snot knocker to a standard terminal snatch & grab...depends on when and how he pulled.

Things I attach to my harness are always with steel on steel hard point attachment, but yes I have seen containers not designed for that use, tear apart on opening shock.

As far as 'attaching' the money, any number of things may have gone sideways...heck I was an Eagle Scout and my bowline knots SUCK!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Farflung 0]

So you may find out that the titanium shaving came from Hayden or Cossey through an act of transference or whatever. Back to square zero.

If it turns out that neither of them ever touched titanium then the race continues with a search of aerospacey and biomedically based industries as some indicator of where that necktie had spent some of its existence. I’m sure a favorite company will be located and someone will remember a real squirrely guy that others secretly thought was Cooper but never mentioned before.

Never mind the provenance of the necktie. Did Cooper buy the thing the day before? Why switch from a tie tack to a clasp? What was on the back of the tie? Doesn’t matter.

One twenty dollar bill will nuke all other pursuits for what they have been which may be described as tangential under the most honorable of terms or pure BS in more realistic. Why are all the suspects suddenly associated with the machining of exotic metals? If a vane from an ostrich feather was discovered on the tie, how many suspects would suddenly be discovered to have a background performing as drag queens?

If some DNA matches someone it is game over, no matter where they worked or what they normally dressed like. If some fingerprints match it will be the same thing.

If it turns out Hayden supplied the chutes and they were identical, the sage selection of a superior rig should go out the window but it will still walk and even run a few miles without a head. Once these stories are hatched they don’t die easy.

[377 22]

Airtwardo wrote

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You 377, know as well as I do the opening shock from a jet exit could have been anything from a snot knocker to a standard terminal snatch & grab...depends on when and how he pulled.

I've never experienced a sleeveless terminal velocity round canopy opening. Both my cutaways were from messed up mains, but definitely subterminal. I imagine a sleeveless C9 opening at 120-200 mph would range from rough to brutal.

Eagle Scout huh? That impresses me a lot Airtwardo, and I am not being sarcastic. I was Second Class, a fitting rank for 377. We lower ranked Scouts comforted ourselves by concluding that the Eagles were dorks, ass kissers and mama's boys... but in our hearts we knew they had the right stuff and would likely do far better than we would in the great life beyond Boy Scouts. My scoutmaster, dismayed by my lack of ambition to rise in rank, lectured me sternly about my wasted potential for "leadership" but I really didn't want to lead anybody. He didn't get it. I had no CEO ambitions.

Eagle Scout still shows up on resume's and it gets attention.

Congrats. Any other Eagle Scouts here?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[pek771 0]

Farflung, you are extremely reasonable.

I think the physical match, either DNA or fingerprints, are still trumped by a $20. DNA can still cast a shadow of doubt (see Orenthal James Simpson), and the eyewitness testimony needs to be very solid upon recollection to carry weight. It would still not resolve all controversy, nor render absolute judgement in the court of public opinion.

The bearer of a $20, with almost any accompanying story, would make that story real and tangible. My guess is that at least one $20 still exists, somewhere.

[Guru312 0]

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As far as 'attaching' the money, any number of things may have gone sideways...heck I was an Eagle Scout and my bowline knots SUCK!

I've tied hundreds of bowline knots in my day and I *still* hear a dialog in my head about a rabbit coming out of a hole next to a tree, running around the tree and then back down the hole.
A few years ago, I called the company which probably made the bank bag. I spoke with the president of the company for almost an hour. He was a young teenager when the DB caper took place and is as fascinated by it as those of us in this forum. We talked about the material of the bag, the model and lots of other things.

His contention was that if the bag had been tied closed securely with nylon cord the "package" of money could sustain many years under water or out in the elements.

Tying the bag closed would be almost trivial, whether he was an Eagle scout or not. Tying the bag securely to his body or harness is a VERY non-trivial task. I've mentioned this a number of times in the thread: Without a second pair of hands to support the "package" while tying to the harness it is quite likely that he could not secure it sufficiently to sustain exit and opening shock.

Airtwardo has more experience jumping with "stuff" attached to himself than just about anyone here...maybe in the world. When he wrote this:

Quote

"...the opening shock from a jet exit could have been anything from a snot knocker to a standard terminal snatch & grab...depends on when and how he pulled.

You can be assured that he knows what he's talking about.

Whether DB lived or died or ever worked for Boeing or ever spent time on an Alaskan island, the chances of the money staying attached to him are extremely small.

Finally, given what I know about human nature and what DB had been through prior to jumping, the chances that he threw away a few thousand dollars for *any* reason are less than the chances that the money stayed attached to him.

The money survived the jump whether he did or not.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[BruceSmith 3]

Eagle Scout huh? That impresses me a lot Airtwardo, and I am not being sarcastic. I was Second Class, a fitting rank for 377. We lower ranked Scouts comforted ourselves by concluding that the Eagles were dorks, ass kissers and mama's boys... but in our hearts we knew they had the right stuff and would likely do far better than we would in the great life beyond Boy Scouts. My scoutmaster, dismayed by my lack of ambition to rise in rank, lectured me sternly about my wasted potential for "leadership" but I really didn't want to lead anybody. He didn't get it. I had no CEO ambitions.

Eagle Scout still shows up on resume's and it gets attention.

Congrats. Any other Eagle Scouts here?

377

[Amazon 7]

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Airtwardo wrote

Quote

You 377, know as well as I do the opening shock from a jet exit could have been anything from a snot knocker to a standard terminal snatch & grab...depends on when and how he pulled.

I've never experienced a sleeveless terminal velocity round canopy opening. Both my cutaways were from messed up mains, but definitely subterminal. I imagine a sleeveless C9 opening at 120-200 mph would range from rough to brutal.

Eagle Scout huh? That impresses me a lot Airtwardo, and I am not being sarcastic. I was Second Class, a fitting rank for 377. We lower ranked Scouts comforted ourselves by concluding that the Eagles were dorks, ass kissers and mama's boys... but in our hearts we knew they had the right stuff and would likely do far better than we would in the great life beyond Boy Scouts. My scoutmaster, dismayed by my lack of ambition to rise in rank, lectured me sternly about my wasted potential for "leadership" but I really didn't want to lead anybody. He didn't get it. I had no CEO ambitions.

Eagle Scout still shows up on resume's and it gets attention.

Congrats. Any other Eagle Scouts here?

377

No No No....
I have... It just aint that bad..even with it attached to the D-Rings... it was my reserve.. I got to do it twice due to my excellent packing skills.. hell I even watched it open..since the damn thing was playing out right past my face. They open from the top down as it flaps around a lot while you are getting line stretch... then fills from the top. Its just not that bad at all even kinda laying there on my back.. protecting the lines from the Capewells with my left arm.

[skyjack71 0]

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Jo, where in that PM from Jerry did he threaten you?................................................ There is no threat whatsoever. .........................................Are you smoking some left handed tobacco or what? Your posts reek of make-believe. ................................Please turn your PC off for a week or two.

I didn't say he was threatening me. Go back and read his post prior to that! He said I was threaten him. I am asking a question of others if they considered the post I made a threat?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[BruceSmith 3]

Greetings All,

I have a report on my latest luncheon interview with Bob Sailshaw. This time it is with Alan MacArthur, a Boeing physicist and founder of the Boeing Skydiving Club.

Alan also knows Earl Cossey; and in fact was in Vietnam in 1971 as an 0-2 on a SF Alpha team. Quite a few angles to cover:

http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/11/11/db-cooper-interview-with-boeing-engineer-sheds-more-light-on-case/#more-3969

[Amazon 7]

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Quote

As far as 'attaching' the money, any number of things may have gone sideways...heck I was an Eagle Scout and my bowline knots SUCK!

I've tied hundreds of bowline knots in my day and I *still* hear a dialog in my head about a rabbit coming out of a hole next to a tree, running around the tree and then back down the hole.

A few years ago, I called the company which probably made the bank bag. I spoke with the president of the company for almost an hour. He was a young teenager when the DB caper took place and is as fascinated by it as those of us in this forum. We talked about the material of the bag, the model and lots of other things.

His contention was that if the bag had been tied closed securely with nylon cord the "package" of money could sustain many years under water or out in the elements.

Tying the bag closed would be almost trivial, whether he was an Eagle scout or not. Tying the bag securely to his body or harness is a VERY non-trivial task. I've mentioned this a number of times in the thread: Without a second pair of hands to support the "package" while tying to the harness it is quite likely that he could not secure it sufficiently to sustain exit and opening shock.



Airtwardo has more experience jumping with "stuff" attached to himself than just about anyone here...maybe in the world. When he wrote this:

Quote

"...the opening shock from a jet exit could have been anything from a snot knocker to a standard terminal snatch & grab...depends on when and how he pulled.

You can be assured that he knows what he's talking about.

Whether DB lived or died or ever worked for Boeing or ever spent time on an Alaskan island, the chances of the money staying attached to him are extremely small.

Finally, given what I know about human nature and what DB had been through prior to jumping, the chances that he threw away a few thousand dollars for *any* reason are less than the chances that the money stayed attached to him.

The money survived the jump whether he did or not.

I used that method to teach hundreds of college boys how to tie the bowline... one of the five knots that were required as part of their training

[skyjack71 0]

Jerry's post to George

"Geoger: Did you know that DropZone had a feature called just incase you missed my post. I didn't Untill a couple minutes ago. Jo showed me this option ,when she made a threatining post , I still can't figure out how she did it .Jerry"

I quoted his post above.

Class Clown this is the post Jerry made. This is when he said I made a Threatening post. I reposted the post he was talking about. Asking the question. Is this a Threat.

I wish people would read the prior posts before making mountains out of mole hills.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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Jerry, You take the cake - I offer up what you have baggered me with for yrs and your theme through-out your postings in this thread. NOW that I am willing to do it - you state is has no value which is exactly what I have stated over and over to you in this thread and what others have told you

Jerry is right, it has no value if you know exactly what will be asked and how you carefully phrase both questions and answers!! In any case a polygraph does NOT distinguish between fact and non-fact; it distinguishes between what (most people) believe to be the truth and what they believe to be lies. So if a polygraph test asks Jo, "Was Duane Cooper?" her "yes" answer will probably come up as truthful. This doesn't mean Duane was Cooper, it just means that Jo believes he was. 377 will know better, but I presume this is one of the reasons polygraphs are not admissible in court, another being that a well-rehearsed person can beat it.

I must say though this sudden turnaround on the lie detector test, qualified as it may be, is interesting. Does this mean all Jo's other "evidence" has once again crumbled to dust?

In other news, most of the 3 pages I missed since last check are just blah-blah-blah...FFS...

Orange, HOW many posts has Jerry bagered and bagered me about a lie detector? I agree to get one to SHUT him up. I have stated many many times that a lie detector test will prove little at this late date and would Not prove I was lieing as Jerry states over and over repetitively. So I decided to offered to take one to get HIM off my back and then Ha Ha Ha he comes back with his reply - which is exactly what I and the thread have told him repetively. The test would prove Nothing! I was hoping to bury his Lie Detector posting and his constant badgering about it.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[ClassClown 0]

Quote

Jerry's post to George

"Geoger: Did you know that DropZone had a feature called just incase you missed my post. I didn't Untill a couple minutes ago. Jo showed me this option ,when she made a threatining post , I still can't figure out how she did it .Jerry"

I quoted his post above.

Class Clown this is the post Jerry made. This is when he said I made a Threatening post. I reposted the post he was talking about. Asking the question. Is this a Threat.

I wish people would read the prior posts before making mountains out of mole hills.

These are your words Jo:
P.S.
Below is the PM he sent to me:
Now this is a real threat:

Jo. Rest assured I will only Tell the truth I will reference all your stories you have made and posted over the past 16 years. It will be up to those that want to see the truth and listen to decide for theselves. You are a lier you know it and so do I. Take it to court ! all you have to do is pass a polygraph test . Which you can not .If you would like to attend this conference I will pay for it personally. I also will pay for a polygraph test at the conference for you and I. If you refuse this chalenge it just proves my point . Jerry

Now where in this PM is Jerry's threat to you?

[377 22]

Amazon wrote (about sleeveless C9 canopy openings at 120-200 mph)

Quote

I have... It just aint that bad..even with it attached to the D-Rings... it was my reserve.. I got to do it twice due to my excellent packing skills.. hell I even watched it open..since the damn thing was playing out right past my face. They open from the top down as it flaps around a lot while you are getting line stretch... then fills from the top. Its just not that bad at all even kinda laying there on my back.. protecting the lines from the Capewells with my left arm.

Well, then why did we all have sleeves on our round mains? Actually the videos of the Air America 727 jumps surprised me. Gentle opening due to canopy squidding, kinda like the top down opening sequence which Amazon describes.

377

[377 22]

Bruce wrote in his latest article quoting Alana Macarthur

Quote

 Alan explained that to deploy the canopy a paratrooper had to engage a two-part release –first pinching a section of the ripcord release mechanism and then pulling the whole device.

That's wrong but I think it's just a misunderstanding. I think he is talking about canopy release hardware (eg Capewells), not the ripcord system. Early Capewell fittings (called two-shots) worked just like he described, but they had nothing to do with opening the parachute. They were used to release the canopy from the harness for various reasons e.g. so a jumper wouldn't be dragged by wind after landing or could detach the canopy after a water landing so that he could swim.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

Bruce wrote in his latest article quoting Alana Macarthur

Quote

 Alan explained that to deploy the canopy a paratrooper had to engage a two-part release –first pinching a section of the ripcord release mechanism and then pulling the whole device.

That's wrong but I think it's just a misunderstanding. I think he is talking about canopy release hardware (eg Capewells), not the ripcord system. Early Capewell fittings (called two-shots) worked just like he described, but they had nothing to do with opening the parachute. They were used to release the canopy from the harness for various reasons e.g. so a jumper wouldn't be dragged by wind after landing or could detach the canopy after a water landing so that he could swim.

377

Either that or it is describing a static line hook...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[BruceSmith 3]

Quote

Bruce wrote in his latest article quoting Alana Macarthur

Quote

 Alan explained that to deploy the canopy a paratrooper had to engage a two-part release –first pinching a section of the ripcord release mechanism and then pulling the whole device.

That's wrong but I think it's just a misunderstanding. I think he is talking about canopy release hardware (eg Capewells), not the ripcord system. Early Capewell fittings (called two-shots) worked just like he described, but they had nothing to do with opening the parachute. They were used to release the canopy from the harness for various reasons e.g. so a jumper wouldn't be dragged by wind after landing or could detach the canopy after a water landing so that he could swim.

377

Thanks, Three-Seven-Seven, I think you have cleared up the situation. Things can get muddled when you don't know what you don't know.

[Amazon 7]

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Amazon wrote (about sleeveless C9 canopy openings at 120-200 mph)

Quote

I have... It just aint that bad..even with it attached to the D-Rings... it was my reserve.. I got to do it twice due to my excellent packing skills.. hell I even watched it open..since the damn thing was playing out right past my face. They open from the top down as it flaps around a lot while you are getting line stretch... then fills from the top. Its just not that bad at all even kinda laying there on my back.. protecting the lines from the Capewells with my left arm.

Well, then why did we all have sleeves on our round mains? Actually the videos of the Air America 727 jumps surprised me. Gentle opening due to canopy squidding, kinda like the top down opening sequence which Amazon describes.

377

Easier to pack
Flake it and sleeve it
Fold it and stuff it