DB Cooper

[hangdiver 1]

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From Snowmman

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I had posted these pics of Braden posing in skydiving positions from May 28 1961 Stars and Stripes before,
but two new things
1) I posted them to another site so the full sized jpg is available
2) looking at them again, it's cool to see Braden, who died as a truck driver, in his prime..wearing his helmet, goggles, jump boots, and rig. Remember how Alan talked about his black jump suit with his name on it, and his PCA number, I think it was.

interesting his wife at the time (that Alan mentioned) is quoted in the article.

Interesting seeing Braden doing the different freefall positions back in 1961. (posing)

Can't tell what kind of jump boots. They seem to have thinner soles than french boots.
Allan mentioned "polished Corcorans"...the pics seem thin soled to me (ankle boots though..pant legs tucked in)
(see them flexing on the p13a.jpg)

Braden had 400 jumps already by 1961

http://dbcooperfiles.wikispaces.com/file/view/Stars_And_Stripes_May_28_1961_p12a.jpg
http://dbcooperfiles.wikispaces.com/file/view/Stars_And_Stripes_May_28_1961_p13a.jpg

377

Just to correct...second link (page 13) the far right picture says "Fog" it should say "Frog".

Nice Snow...

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[ClassClown 0]

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Quote

From Snowmman

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I had posted these pics of Braden posing in skydiving positions from May 28 1961 Stars and Stripes before,
but two new things
1) I posted them to another site so the full sized jpg is available
2) looking at them again, it's cool to see Braden, who died as a truck driver, in his prime..wearing his helmet, goggles, jump boots, and rig. Remember how Alan talked about his black jump suit with his name on it, and his PCA number, I think it was.

interesting his wife at the time (that Alan mentioned) is quoted in the article.

Interesting seeing Braden doing the different freefall positions back in 1961. (posing)

Can't tell what kind of jump boots. They seem to have thinner soles than french boots.
Allan mentioned "polished Corcorans"...the pics seem thin soled to me (ankle boots though..pant legs tucked in)
(see them flexing on the p13a.jpg)

Braden had 400 jumps already by 1961

http://dbcooperfiles.wikispaces.com/file/view/Stars_And_Stripes_May_28_1961_p12a.jpg
http://dbcooperfiles.wikispaces.com/file/view/Stars_And_Stripes_May_28_1961_p13a.jpg

377

Just to correct...second link (page 13) the far right picture says "Fog" it should say "Frog".

Nice Snow...

hangdiver

Is anyone having trouble viewing these jpgs?

[Buckshot31 0]

The FBI sketch and a picture of Ted Braden are very similiar. I am surprised most folks have not compared the FBI sketch and a picture of him. The FBI could easily eliminate Ted Braden with his fingerprints in his military records. I wonder why the FBI has not answered the question of Ted Braden/Cooper with his fingerprints. The FBI supposedly eliminated a lot of the other suspects with fingerprints from the crime scene. I worked for Ted on the 8th Div. parachute team in Germany from 1961 to 1964, and the FBI sketch with sun classes looks just like him. The description given by the flight crew describes him.

[BruceSmith 3]

Greetings All,

Norman Hayden announced today that he is withdrawing from all participation in the DB Cooper investigation due to having his good name smeared by Earl Cossey, and the fact that I printed it in the Mountain News.

Norman is exceptionally sensitive to these circumstances, and he is anathema to the harsh and vulgar sentiments expressed by Mr Cossey regarding parachute ownership.

A more complete report can be read at the Mountain News.

http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/11/13/db-cooper-build-up-to-the-40th-anniversary/#more-3982

On a completely different subject, has anyone ever walked El Camino de Santaigo de Compostela? I just saw the movie called The Way, and I'm interested in learning more about El Camino from those who have exprienced it directly. Thanks.

[BruceSmith 3]

Greetings,

As many of you know, my note taking and memory of interviews is less than 100% perfect. Some have surmised that on a "good day" I get maybe 50% correct.

So, God-Bless you all for your continuing editorial commentaries. Where would I be without them? Certainly, the story would suffer with much less truth in it.

So, it has continued apace this weekend regarding my post on my interview with Alan MacArthur, generously hosted by Dwight Sailshaw. I have received a TON of corrections, most notably about Sheridan Peterson. Now, after a revision of a revision, I think I may have got it right.

Snowmman calls this collaborative process "crowd-sourcing," and it has been described as such by another journalist whose name I can't remember at the moment, of course. (a New York Times guy?).

But it's true, open-sourced investigations and the resulting write-ups are a two-way street and participants need both humility and cajones.

Again, thanks to all for all your help in helping me deliver a worthier product. I am also happy to report that no one directed nasty words to me. Whew. I'll be happy to write a nice note to your mother if you'd like, or Santa - your choice.

http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/11/11/db-cooper-interview-with-boeing-engineer-sheds-more-light-on-case/

[Farflung 0]

The composite drawings have so many variations on the sunglasses. Were they Ray Ban-esque or more Paris Hilton-y with smaller lenses? So hard to tell when you are sitting next to the guy and staring right at them. Hmmmm….. guess I would suck just as bad and probably a hell of a lot more.

But on the other end of the spectrum are the shoes. Everyone is so darned sure that they are loafers that the question is repeated time and time again about jumping with the things. Hmmmmm….. I wonder if there may (just may here, don’t go into sphincter lock over the suggestion) have been a little self fulfilling description going on here. He wore a business suit, black tie, white shirt and umm…. ahh…. Yeah businessman loafers. That’s it, he was wearing businessman shoes to go with his businessman tie, coat and shirt. Good enough for me.

[georger 244]

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The FBI sketch and a picture of Ted Braden are very similiar. I am surprised most folks have not compared the FBI sketch and a picture of him. The FBI could easily eliminate Ted Braden with his fingerprints in his military records. I wonder why the FBI has not answered the question of Ted Braden/Cooper with his fingerprints. The FBI supposedly eliminated a lot of the other suspects with fingerprints from the crime scene. I worked for Ted on the 8th Div. parachute team in Germany from 1961 to 1964, and the FBI sketch with sun classes looks just like him. The description given by the flight crew describes him.

Triple 000t asks Buckshot: in what respect are the
The FBI sketch and a picture of Ted Braden are very
similiar. ?

[Orange1 0]

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On a completely different subject, has anyone ever walked El Camino de Santaigo de Compostela? I just saw the movie called The Way, and I'm interested in learning more about El Camino from those who have exprienced it directly. Thanks.

Not me, but a friend of mine has done it. She found it extremely spiritual and moving, but she is also a deeply religious Catholic. I am not sure what your beliefs are, but beliefs will surely inform the experience (I should think).

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[ClassClown 0]

..............I feel the need to apologize to those that I may have offended for my part in the latest attempt to inject some humour into the DZ forum....................I am sorry if some or all of you were offended by my latest gag concerning a steel cage match between Jo and Jerry................................After receiving a very awkward feeling private message from another poster ............................I have decided to ask forgiveness from the DZ community for my insentiveness during these troubled times.................................I'm also sorry for making light of the polygraph tests that Jerry has repeatedly asked Jo to take as well..............................I am very sorry if anyone was offened by any of my actions...............I truly am..............

[georger 244]

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..............I feel the need to apologize to those that I may have offended for my part in the latest attempt to inject some humour into the DZ forum....................I am sorry if some or all of you were offended by my latest gag concerning a steel cage match between Jo and Jerry................................After receiving a very awkward feeling private message from another poster ............................I have decided to ask forgiveness from the DZ community for my insentiveness during these troubled times.................................I'm also sorry for making light of the polygraph tests that Jerry has repeatedly asked Jo to take as well..............................I am very sorry if anyone was offened by any of my actions...............I truly am..............

I trully am I am
green eggs and ham.
Sam-I-am. That Sam-I-am!
I do not like that Sam-I-am.
Do you like green eggs and ham.
I do.
I trully do I am.
Green eggs and ham I am.

[Hominid 0]

The attachment shows a representation of the "pressure bump" and, below that, what the "cabin climb rate" guage indications could be if the pressure pulse were long in relation to the leakage time of the guage. The curve is the indication over the time frame of the pressure pulse, and the circles show what the guage indication would look like at different points in time.

The positive and negative indications of the guage could have been larger or smaller than shown. They could even have banged up against the max limits on the right side of the guage. The whole sequence could have occurred very quickly, in which case it would seem that the needle jumped down instantly then back up instantly, then back to zero. If it occurred more slowly, this would seem more like a typical (albeit 1-cycle) "oscillation."

The response to the pressure bump could easily have been "the oscillation" except for the bump or ear popping not being mentioned along with the oscillations in the logged communications, or the later timing of the bump not corresponding to the logged time of the "oscillations," or nobody ever saying they were the same thing.

[georger 244]

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The attachment shows a representation of the "pressure bump" and, below that, what the "cabin climb rate" guage indications would be. The curve is the indication over the time frame of the pressure pulse, and the circles show what the guage indication would look like at different points in time.

The positive and negative indications of the guage could have been larger or smaller than shown. They could even have banged up against the max limits on the right side of the guage. The whole sequence could have occurred very quickly, in which case it would seem that the needle jumped down instantly then back up instantly, then back to zero. If it occurred more slowly, this would seem more like a typical (albeit 1-cycle) "oscillation."

The response to the pressure bump could easily have been "the oscillation" except for the bump or ear popping not being mentioned along with the oscillations in the logged communications, or the later timing of the bump not corresponding to the logged time of the "oscillations," or nobody ever saying they were the same thing.

Questions: note instrument package at rear
bulkhead during test - see photos. Presume the
inlet for the pressure guage mounted at this rear
bulkhead is right there along with the instrument?

Inlet for rate-of-climb guage in cockpit is at the back
of that instrument (in the cockpit with the
instrument)?

So in essence, the test guages were not positioned
in the same location for the test as during the actual
flight ? Distance separating the two would be ???
(length of aircraft) ?

Ckret said no air curent detectable in rear seat
during the test, with door open and stairs down ?
In fact he said a fellow sitting in that seat was
holding papers and 'they barely moved' ?
Can that be true and to what extent ?

How much air pressure differential are we really
talking about here, beyond what the instruments
would measure ? Something you could feel?
Something that would move papers and light objects
around ? (There was a concern Tina be tied in
when opoening the rear door, which came from the
pilots! Cooper aleviated Tina of that task.)
Something that could create the food splattering
found mid way through the cabin at the galley
station?

PLEASE do not repeat: air pressure outside = P
inside. We know that. Once the door is open, what
volume of air is passing inside to outside at what
rate per second? even an estimate because I havent
the faintest idea and anything I dream up would be
total conjecture and wrong. The real issue at stake is
is 'force'.

see attached -

[377 22]

Georger wrote

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Ckret said no air curent detectable in rear seat
during the test, with door open and stairs down ?
In fact he said a fellow sitting in that seat was
holding papers and 'they barely moved' ?
Can that be true and to what extent ?

In the DC 9 I jumped, there was no noticable airflow change inside the cabin when they opened the door leading to the exit ramp. The stairs had been removed and the space they occupied was lined with sheet metal forming a kind of exit chute/ramp.

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How much air pressure differential are we really talking about here, beyond what the instruments would measure ? Something you could feel? Something that would move papers and light objects around ? (There was a concern Tina be tied in when opoening the rear door, which came from the pilots! Cooper aleviated Tina of that task.)
Something that could create the food splattering
found mid way through the cabin at the galley
station?

Nahhh, nothing at all on the DC 9. You could have sat near the open door and read a paper and sipped some coffee. Just like jumping a tailgate plane like a CASA or C 130. Even at the edge of the tailgate things are pretty calm... but shortly after you step off and if airspeed is high, KABOOM. You get a wake up call.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Hominid 0]

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So in essence, the test guages were not positioned
in the same location for the test as during the actual
flight ? Distance separating the two would be ???
(length of aircraft) ?

Ckret said no air curent detectable in rear seat
during the test, with door open and stairs down ?
In fact he said a fellow sitting in that seat was
holding papers and 'they barely moved' ?
Can that be true and to what extent ?

It is true. With the rear open no air would be flowing through the cabin except for whatever little bit the air conditioning and pressurization system may have produced. No air flow through because there was nowhere forward for the air to enter. Some air movement could occur. Come in through one area of the door and back out through another. But it would be only slight.

Quote

How much air pressure differential are we really
talking about here, beyond what the instruments
would measure ? Something you could feel?
Something that would move papers and light objects
around ? (There was a concern Tina be tied in
when opoening the rear door, which came from the
pilots! Cooper aleviated Tina of that task.)
Something that could create the food splattering
found mid way through the cabin at the galley
station?

One would feel coolness on the face. Light things could flutter. The air movement is like vibration, back and forth, not a steady stream. A dropped feather would fall rather than heading for the door. Air would not have been a valid reason for tethering Tina. It would be in the event she stumbled or fell because of turbulence or something. Air flow in the cabin or high up in the stairwell could not have moved food around in the cabin.

Quote

PLEASE do not repeat: air pressure outside = P
inside. We know that. Once the door is open, what
volume of air is passing inside to outside at what
rate per second? even an estimate because I havent
the faintest idea and anything I dream up would be
total conjecture and wrong. The real issue at stake is
is 'force'.

The tiny airflow going out the aft door can't be estimated because it would be the result of factors for which we have no info. The main one would be how much air the cabin pressurization system was pushing through. The effect of this would be like you feel in the cabin of any airliner. Get up and stand in the aisle. Do you feel that wind blowing you down the aisle? No. That's how much effect the airflow on flight 305 could have had on things in the cabin.

[georger 244]

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Quote

So in essence, the test guages were not positioned
in the same location for the test as during the actual
flight ? Distance separating the two would be ???
(length of aircraft) ?

Ckret said no air curent detectable in rear seat
during the test, with door open and stairs down ?
In fact he said a fellow sitting in that seat was
holding papers and 'they barely moved' ?
Can that be true and to what extent ?

It is true. With the rear open no air would be flowing through the cabin except for whatever little bit the air conditioning and pressurization system may have produced. No air flow through because there was nowhere forward for the air to enter. Some air movement could occur. Come in through one area of the door and back out through another. But it would be only slight.

Quote

How much air pressure differential are we really
talking about here, beyond what the instruments
would measure ? Something you could feel?
Something that would move papers and light objects
around ? (There was a concern Tina be tied in
when opoening the rear door, which came from the
pilots! Cooper aleviated Tina of that task.)
Something that could create the food splattering
found mid way through the cabin at the galley
station?

One would feel coolness on the face. Light things could flutter. The air movement is like vibration, back and forth, not a steady stream. A dropped feather would fall rather than heading for the door. Air would not have been a valid reason for tethering Tina. It would be in the event she stumbled or fell because of turbulence or something. Air flow in the cabin or high up in the stairwell could not have moved food around in the cabin.

Quote

PLEASE do not repeat: air pressure outside = P
inside. We know that. Once the door is open, what
volume of air is passing inside to outside at what
rate per second? even an estimate because I havent
the faintest idea and anything I dream up would be
total conjecture and wrong. The real issue at stake is
is 'force'.

The tiny airflow going out the aft door can't be estimated because it would be the result of factors for which we have no info. The main one would be how much air the cabin pressurization system was pushing through. The effect of this would be like you feel in the cabin of any airliner. Get up and stand in the aisle. Do you feel that wind blowing you down the aisle? No. That's how much effect the airflow on flight 305 could have had on things in the cabin.

ok, thanks to Hominid and 377. So in essence we
have a longish closed tapered cylinder whose moment is centered on the CG, traveling through a medium of air, with a hole on the bottom side aft end.

And, three large jet engines expelling compressed
gas (at a horrendous rate) above and to the sides
of the same back end, just above Cooper on the
stairs ? Those three engines help in shaping the
whole pressure envelope at the back of the plane ...
including on the under side Cooper will pass through
in fractions of seconds, and help affect the
equilibrium of the stairs (in addition to the force of
air due to the plane's motion)?

[377 22]

There was a second or so of falling through calm air after leaving the jet then you got slammed. It was like there was a zone of "dead air" (air being pulled along with the plane) below and aft of the plane. At least that's how I recall it.

Maybe Georger or Hominid can explain it.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 244]

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There was a second or so of falling through calm air after leaving the jet then you got slammed. It was like there was a zone of "dead air" (air being pulled along with the plane) below and aft of the plane. At least that's how I recall it.

Maybe Georger or Hominid can explain it.

377

what interests me is the placement of these engines
relative to the stairs and a drop from those stairs
t1......tn. The jet blast from those engines are
affecting the pressure envelope and air flow at the
rear of the plane in motion (to some extent for
a few seconds even after Cooper separates and
the plane moves ahead).

Keep in mind the wheels are down; a turbulence
zone behind.

see attached -

[Hominid 0]

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There was a second or so of falling through calm air after leaving the jet then you got slammed. It was like there was a zone of "dead air" (air being pulled along with the plane) below and aft of the plane. At least that's how I recall it.

Maybe Georger or Hominid can explain it.

377

I'll bite. If you passed thru dead air I think the airstream must have been detached from the fuselage. I'm not familiar with the plane but I would suspect from what you say that the aft end is not as streamlined as the 727, which is almost a cone.

[Hominid 0]

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what interests me is the placement of these engines
relative to the stairs and a drop from those stairs
t1......tn. The jet blast from those engines are
affecting the pressure envelope and air flow at the
rear of the plane in motion (to some extent for
a few seconds even after Cooper separates and
the plane moves ahead).

Keep in mind the wheels are down; a turbulence
zone behind.

Can't help about the flow field of engines running or their impact on overall flow field. I suspect that the impact is modest because: the center engine intake is distant and its exhaust is distant and downstream; the side engine exhausts are about 9' to the side and 9' up from the end of the stairs. Some side-to-side impact from side engines could be cancelled by symmetry.

[ClassClown 0]

This really amounts to nothing. Too much time spent on yet another smoking gun.........................................................

[georger 244]

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This really amounts to nothing. Too much time spent on yet another smoking gun.........................................................

How so?

or continue to be a troll; Class Clown I am ?

[airtwardo 7]

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This really amounts to nothing. Too much time spent on yet another smoking gun.........................................................

Yup, airflow, pressure bump, ice cube temperatures...just like the color of the carpeting on the aircraft. It may be an interesting tidbit, but it's meaningless unless someone finds a shoe in a closet with the same fibers...next to a cheap suit with no tie...and an old parachute.

Show me THE money!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[ClassClown 0]

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This really amounts to nothing. Too much time spent on yet another smoking gun.........................................................

Yup, airflow, pressure bump, ice cube temperatures...just like the color of the carpeting on the aircraft. It may be an interesting tidbit, but it's meaningless unless someone finds a shoe in a closet with the same fibers...next to a cheap suit with no tie...and an old parachute.

Show me THE money!

............................airtwardo beat me to it............................

[Amazon 7]

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This really amounts to nothing. Too much time spent on yet another smoking gun.........................................................

Yup, airflow, pressure bump, ice cube temperatures...just like the color of the carpeting on the aircraft. It may be an interesting tidbit, but it's meaningless unless someone finds a shoe in a closet with the same fibers...next to a cheap suit with no tie...and an old parachute.

Show me THE money!

Hey at least it keeps all these wuffos off the street and gives em something to do

[Buckshot31 0]

In 1973 Ted was driving an 18 wheeler for Pittsburg Glass Co, Pittsburg, PA. I think his primary route was between Pittsburg and Nashville. The only markings on the tractor were the DOT numbers. The trailer was well marked with Pittsburg glass logos and etc. He appeared to be very content driving an 18 wheeler. Have a great day. Al