DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

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Thanks all for the feedback

Eh?

Well, 377 and Bruce. The 'all' was in case someone else did and I forgot to mention them

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[TomKaye 1]

Carol, Al and I had a great time. I was very happy to meet everyone in person and see old friends. Even people on opposite sides of the fence were friendly to each other and maybe it's a good thing the trouble makers stayed home. EVERYONE was really delightful and the buzz in the air was great.

The most interesting thing that surprised me was people showing up that had been directly involved in the actual search for Cooper or the money in 1980. If it happens next year, I would try and round those people up in a special session to hear their stories.

I learned a lot from the talks. 377 did a spectacular job on the parachutes, the Foreman's and Marla filled in a lot of blanks. Great intro and volunteer support from the Oregon History team, THANK YOU!

Notes:
Sluggo, H and others were surely missed.
Way more people than I expected and most stayed to the end.
Marla I think will take Jo Webber's place as the reigning Queen of Cooper Land.
Bruce was INCREDIBLE on stage with the poem. Much more likable guy in person than I imagined.
I STILL want to meet Amazon!
Props to Brian for donating one of the few bills left to charity, big heart from a great guy. BRAVO!
377 and his lovely wife were everything I imagined and more. I want them to move in next door.
Jerry Thomas, I was somewhat worried that my talk would create friction but that was not the case. Jerry was great, we hugged and agree to be on opposite sides of the argument.
I concur with Bruce that the new feeling is that the public is now steering the Cooper ship.
I would have bet any money I could put on the NB 8 without experience, I was DEAD wrong.

Thanks to Geoff and his team for making it a great success!

Tom Kaye

[377 22]

Folks reading my posts about the symposium must be thinking who is this Polyanna 377 who likes everyone who shows up at a quasi UFO Bigfoot convention? Good question and I have no answer that will satisfy the cynics.

Hangdiver and "raspberrymoon" were some other symposium attendees who I really liked. Hangdiver and I go way back in Northern California skydiving and knew a lot of the same people. I won't post names, but some of the old school jumpers who were true pioneers in the sport haven't fared well... drugs, injuries, illnesses and all that. Hangdiver and raspberrymoon are taking one of these survivors in and try to get him cleaned up, healthy on back on track. It's a very tough job (I know the guy they will be helping) and altruistic as hell. You just have to love people who show such kindness and concern for a nearly broken person down on his luck.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Georger, real question for you:

Did Tina express an opinion that Cooper seemed to know what he was doing when he put on his parachute, or was this an embellishment or invented dialog by someone else?

At the conclusion of my symposium I told the audience that I had brought something to share with them, a stock Navy NB8 complete with a C9 canopy neatly packed up inside.

I joked around a bit about the difficulty I encountered bring it as carry on luggage in a duffle bag.

TSA: May I have a word with you sir?
TSA: What is the item inside this bag?
ME: It's a parachute.
TSA: That's what we thought from the x-ray.
TSA: Were you planning to use this today?
ME: Not today actually, I am bring it to some people in Portland who share my interest in skyjacking so that they can try it on.

Actually TSA didnt notice it, they were too busy Tasering a young mother who tried to take a baby bottle aboard.

Anyway, back to the serious stuff. An NB8 (or NB6) is NOT an easy chute for a Whuffo to put on. Part of the problem comes from the confusing chest strap configuration. There isnt a single belt that comes across the chest but rather two opposing "Vs" of webbing that clip together at their apexes forming an "X". The leg straps are also a bit confusing as it isnt immediately obvious how they connect.

I asked for volunteers who had never jumped or put on a chute, male and about Cooper's estimated age. I selected a volunteer and he came to the stage. He could not figure out how to put it on. His final configuration would have sent him freefalling away from the harness on opening shock.

I can't say for certain, but I think Cooper had worn a chute before. His alleged ease in getting it on and hooked up tells me it was not the first time he had done it. Putting on an NB 6 or NB8 isnt simple, believe me.

My NB8 ripcord handle was in the stock Navy position, left hand inboard. The NB8 Cossey put together and Cooper jumped allegedly had a mod repositioning the handle to right outboard. Handle position is irrelevant to the ease of donning however.

Hangdiver pointed out that Cossey may have moved it for his own use so that it would match the position of the handle on his skydive rig. Having consistent configurations for all your gear is important. Experienced skydivers have gone in as no pulls using borrowed gear with the ripcord handle or pilot chute handle in a different position than the gear they regularly jump. Many think this is what happened to Jan Davis, a highly experienced jumper who went in as a no pull on a protest jump off El Capitain in Yosemite. Jan was using borrowed gear that had the pilot chute handle on her leg rather than on the bottom of her back container. Modern sport gear doesn't use ripcords to deploy the main canopy but rather uses a handle attached to the top of the pilot chute which is stuffed in an elastic pouch.

In the interest of full disclosure, Carol A. was able to put the NB8 on correctly during a break, but she has studied parachute structures (reserves, cross connectors, butterfly clips etc) and has the keen eye of a scientific illustrator.

So Georger, was the info about Cooper's ease in putting on his chute really uttered by Tina or was it made up by a TTY typist or pilot?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Farflung 0]

OK 377 it’s time to define something or at least produce a matrix on the subject.

About parachutes in general there are roughly two species which a person can use which are ‘Sport’ and ‘Emergency’ types. I say roughly since there are F-111, Cirrus, Mercury and Apollo systems which people used.

When I wore the Emergency chute there were no reserves and no way to attach one from my weak recall. They were designed for high speed exit and designed with the assumption that the crewmember may be unconscious thus the round design and the 4-line mod you could do after you had your shit together. They truly are a marvel of design and function for one use.

My understanding (I’m sure this is wrong) of sport jumping is that a reserve system is required which is packed and inspected by a licensed party on some schedule. So anytime I see a ‘Skydiver’ I should be looking at a person with two parachutes. It this true?

I don’t see how an NB would be put on with some expectation of attaching a reserve system. Someone experienced would have balked I would think before grabbing the thing and trying to add the reserve. If the NB was Cossey’s sport chute how did he use it? Or was it just a jump pilot’s rig that Cossey used or owned? I don’t see a relationship between a sport jumper selecting the emergency chute then attaching a reserve. How many people did Tina see put on a chute? Dozens or was this her first time?

Did the other chute have a way to attach those reserve systems? Was it finally settled as to who provided the chutes and what type they were? I don’t recall any resolution to that subject with Hayden.

[377 22]

Farflung wrote

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My understanding (I’m sure this is wrong) of sport jumping is that a reserve system is required which is packed and inspected by a licensed party on some schedule. So anytime I see a ‘Skydiver’ I should be looking at a person with two parachutes. It this true?

Yes, 2 chutes for skydivers and the reserve has to be inspected and repacked every 180 days by a licensed rigger. BASE jumpers almost never wear reserves because they pull the main too low to have a second chance with a reserve.

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I don’t see how an NB would be put on with some expectation of attaching a reserve system.

Stock NB8 (and NB6) has no reserve attachment D rings. You'd have to improvise something using carabiners, cords or rope. I wouldnt bother trying to rig a reserve if I were Cooper. Just take a chance on the main. Military bailout rigs are VERY reliable. Military aircrew depend on one chute only, no reserves. Chute failures happen but are very rare.

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Someone experienced would have balked I would think before grabbing the thing and trying to add the reserve.

I dont think he was trying to attach a second chute for a back up. My guess is that he wanted to use thr reserve container as a money bag and perhaps discarding the canopy.

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If the NB was Cossey’s sport chute how did he use it?

It wasnt ever a sport skydiving rig, just a pilot emergency bailout rig.

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Or was it just a jump pilot’s rig that Cossey used or owned?

Yes, thats what it was. It was later sold to an acro pilot named Norman Hayden as per Bruce.

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I don’t see a relationship between a sport jumper selecting the emergency chute then attaching a reserve.

See above.

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How many people did Tina see put on a chute? Dozens or was this her first time?

Dunno, probably her first time, but you really need to see a whuffo try to put on an NB8. It is obvious to ANYBODY that they are encountering trouble and cant figure it out.

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Did the other chute have a way to attach those reserve systems?

No, same as NB8, no D rings.

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Was it finally settled as to who provided the chutes and what type they were? I don’t recall any resolution to that subject with Hayden.

It isnt settled but I'd put my bets on Norman Hayden owning both main rigs. Bruce did a great job investigating the matter. Cossey packed them and probably did the ripcord handle location mod on the NB8. He may have used the NB8 for a while before selling it to Hayden.

I really wish you had been there Farflung, Vicki too.... and Snow, Safe, Orange, Sluggo and Jo too. Not to forget the 99ers and many others whose names I have forgotten to include, like Guru and Jerry Baumchen and on and on.

I had a funny feeling that Safe was there but doing a covert op.

The Kick Ass Oregon History guys were great. I hope someone got them on video and can post a link.

My wife thought your poem rocked and was better than mine. She was right.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

Tom : My hat is off to you, Carol, Alan , And Mark . Your presentations were among the best I've ever seen. Very Profesional. To put it bluntly "Perfect". Mark your presentation was a well needed class and gave the audience the clearest picture possible and a sound understand to skydiving. Your wife is wonderful. Hangdiver you and the better half and (believe me she does look a lot better than you). was a pluss for me to meet. Bruce is a solid reporter and sharp However I think he missed his calling.Like Mark says, He would make a good actor.For all those that couldn't make the Symposium. You missed a once in a lifetime event. I honestly believe that "Dropzone's Cooper thread" should to something like it. The event that followed at the ariel store was a great deal of fun. Blevins sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you, maybe next year. My thanks to Donna for putting on another fantastic party. She always does. Brian Im proud of you . You have come a long ways in the past 2yrs what a buitifull child and a wonderfull wife I realy enjoyed our visit. Geof did a grat job. For the record it took a great deal of courage for everyone to get up in front of all those people and tell there stories and give the presentations that they gave. Farflung you would have been impressed with the presentation of your poem. Geoger you were missed as was Snowmman. Jo, Geof did mention you so you were not left out. Jerry

[georger 244]

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Georger, real question for you:

Did Tina express an opinion that Cooper seemed
to know what he was doing when he put on his parachute, or was this an embellishment or invented dialog by someone else?
377

Tina did not say it seemed he put the parachute
on quite easily, therefore he is of the Ghawazee
tribe, in Egypt, and reads Swahili.

Mark, you pick and chose what you want to do and
believe, in any event, so Im really not sure any
discussion means anything, or can produce anything
more than a social media moment dragged on for
months/years. Geoff calls that the Cooper curse.

This is very old ground for some reason. The issue
of 'ease' of putting on chutes was discussed years
ago. Hancock and Tina's (and Flos ?) remarks were
noted. Ckret really didnt say much about this, just
as he demured from answer your and Snow's
question (of him) 'whats this "negotiable American
currency" thing about? Then he addressed the larger
issue of 'logs and reports' and who and what is said
in them. That was your answer from Ckret. But Mark
being Mark, and Snow being Snow, you have not
accepted that. Maybe you are right and Ckret is
wrong. Maybe Tom and Carol are right and Ckret
is wrong (and the whole FBI is wrong). You are going
to believe and spend time on whatyou want to
believe and spoend time on, in any event. You are a
grown adult. (That is the root of the Cooper curse
imho).

Flimsy evidence is flimsy evidence. Genius and
showmanship sometimes cannot change that.

Why not just ask Tina or Flo if Cooper said
"negotiable American currency"? That would be
the direct approach - without mirrors and stage
effects and tactics?

I would remind you parachuites were just one
of the tools Cooper used in conducting this
hijacking, and not necessarily the central one -
maybe especially if he was some kind of expert.

But since the cold facts are so flimsy and difficult to
get documented ... I can only leave it as it is. That
means each to his or her own tastses and styles,
true or false, with plenty of guessing by people with
very strong personalities and stage presentation
skills. Maybe Cooper was an actor too ? I read
nonfiction.

Everything I am saying sounds like sour grapes.
Again: I read nonfiction.

[377 22]

Why such a complex answer Georger?

I guess what you are saying is that you do not believe Tina said anything about Cooper's apparent ease in putting on the parachute rig?

Why throw in the negotiable currency stuff?

Snowmman chastises me all the time for blurring facts. You can chastise me too if you like doing it, but it's redundant. I posted that Sheridan Peterson was a WW2 combat vet and Snow rapped my knuckles. Pete was a Marine during WW2 but arrived in the Pacific too late to see combat.

If Cooper put on an NB8 (or NB6) quicky I guarantee you it wasnt his first time gearing up with a parachute rig. I am just trying to find out if we have any reliable info about how easy or difficult it was for him. Do we?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

377: There is conflicting stories on his ability put the chute on.Jerry

[Farflung 0]

377 there was a reason I asked about Tina’s experience viewing someone lashing a chute to their backs and it has a genesis from the late 70’s. Except this had to do with Shoe Clerks and what they thought an experienced crew should sound like. The story you are about to read is true.

Some Psych or Sociology professor was engaged in a study on communications of some sort. For some reason he wanted to record cockpit conversations from various aircraft which were for the entire mission rather than the last half hour or whatever the civil recorders are capable of storing.

This professor has laymen listen to the tapes to get their opinions on what they heard. Virtually every one said that one group was working better and smarter where the other came across as lazy or lost. Would you believe they got it dead wrong across the board?

I can’t recall the exact ratio but it was something like 7:1 for words spoken from a new and struggling crew versus a crew with old heads. But people will vote for frenetic motion over substance in this situation.

Here’s a dramatic recreation of an interaction:

“Pilot turn the plane to the right to a heading of one hundred and sixty two degrees and reduce indicated airspeed from 420 knots presently flown to 360 knots and descend from twenty four thousand feet to eighteen thousand feet and then level off, over.”

Versus…

“Turn 162, slow 360, descend one eight thousand.”

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh……..Rog.

Plus the former matches Hollywood’s version better and that’s what the people want. You know Scotty was going to pitch a fit about how much more the ’Dilithium’ crystals could take while Kirk kept insisting that she could take more, a lot more; then things began to shudder and quake while everyone held on with sweat running down their face. Ya know there may have been some undertones to that program that I’ve never noticed before.

[Robert99 50]

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Why such a complex answer Georger?

I guess what you are saying is that you do not believe Tina said anything about Cooper's apparent ease in putting on the parachute rig?

377

377, On page 32 of Tosaw's book, Tina is quoted as follows:

"Cooper put the military parachute on his back and cinched up the canvas straps to make them fit his chest and thighs. Tina noticed how quickly and easily he completed this complicated operation - just looking as though it were an everday occurrence."

377, as a good defense lawyer, I am sure that you could come up with 50+ different interpretations of that paragraph depending on your goals. And maybe in the cross-examination you could find out how the "canvas straps" held up during the jump.

R99

[JerryThomas 0]

Robert 99:Ten minutes ago in conversation with Ralph H. Quote Tina did not observe Cooper putting on the parachute. What was observed was Cooper had a opened chute near the rear exit working on it. Jerry

[Robert99 50]

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Robert 99:Ten minutes ago in conversation with Ralph H. Quote Tina did not observe Cooper putting on the parachute. What was observed was Cooper had a opened chute near the rear exit working on it. Jerry

So Georger is correct. Only Tina, the only possible source for clearing up the confusion, should be interviewed again.

R99

[JerryThomas 0]

Robert99: That is not going to happen. Tina will not subject herself to a interview.Still her privacy should be respected by all. Jerry

[BruceSmith 3]

Greetings Everyone,

The following is the gist of an email I sent to 377 today, and since so much of it is about marla, I thought I'd post it here:

"Yeah, Marla is a force to be reckoned with - and that is the proper analogy. She is like a force of nature. Utterly sweeping. Not even Curtis Eng seems to be immune. I gotta take Marla at her word that Curt sent one of his boys down to Tina with a pix of LD - although if he was smart he'd send Ayn Dietrich.

Marla's description of Tina's words sounded a lot like the words attributed to Florence Shaffner about Kenny Christiansen, ie: "of all the pictures you've showed me, this one is the closest, " etc.

Still no match, though. I'm waiting for the OH MY GAWD!!!!!! picture, if you know what I mean. When someone shows Tina a pic and she says, "I'm gonna have to kill that motherfucker after all, aren't I," then I know we're getting someplace. When Tina reaches under the mattress and pulls out a 12-guage, puts a box of Winchester shells in her purse, grabs her car keys and takes one last swig of Chablis, then I know we're gonna see some closure.

And when Farflung gets a PM from her that reads: "Nun left standing" -
I'll know the DBC case is finally closed.

So, I'm taking the pix report with a bit o' salt.

The LD angle has got a ton of holes in it that you can drive a truck through - Marla was a little kid who only saw her uncle every now and then, after '72 never saw her uncle again, but she had one traumatic incident with him at T-Day when she was eight, which she forgets until mom and dad start talking about it in 1995. Now, we have two guys from the Oklahoma HP - one is a bit Alzheimer-y and the other is so deep undercover that even Marla doesn't even know his name. Plus, no one has ever seen LD in a parachute; plus Dewey is a violent, deviant, crook with a 5-watt walkie-talkie hoping his bro can triangulate Mt St Helens with Mt Rainier's summit at night at 10,000 feet in November and land near Ariel so he can pick him up before the feds do. Yeah, right.

Okay, so now we need someone to go check on the FBI file of their interview with Dewey that launched the road trip to British Columbia with the kids in the back of a pick-up truck.

The whole family sounds alcoholic, so does anyone in Marla World think LD could sober up long enough so that Tina or Florence wouldn't smell the booze coming out of his pores? Plus, keep his hands steady, and act like the perfect gentleman bandit? And never, ever talk about it ever again. And Dewey, too? Whew, that's asking a lot for a couple of brawling, drunk yahoos if I got the family description right.

I love Marla and I love her story, but I doubt LD is DB. It feels like a whacky family story to cover another crime. Did LD kill somebody that night, get beat up, and the family needed a great cover story so that they wouldn't kill him on their own? And when did Dewey throw the T-Day turkey on the kitchen floor and challenge everyone one to eat it from there? Great family memories, eh? And Marla's been in 44 schools! Let's hear it for stability in a child's life, eh? This could be one gigantic psychiatric mess. Add in MKULTRA anyone? (just kidding...but they love these kids, supposedly....)

And what is so great about a report from two Oklahoma State Highway Patrol guys? What did they find? How did they find it? George Nuttall is CHIPS and he didn't find anything substantive, although he is utterly convinced that he did. OHP has undercover guys? Why? To partner with Ted Braden on I-65/55/45 to bring coke up from Branson for the black ops folks at DoD, CIA, NIS, etc? Oy.....so little time, so many angles.

What I love about Marla most is what she tells us about Curtis. So sweet. Thank you God for sending us Marla! She's like walking in warm, gentle rain on a hot, muggy day. Ya still get wet, but it feels so good.

[JerryThomas 0]

Bruce. BINGO> Jerry

[DangerousDan 0]

Thot you guys might be interested in this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knJH2uoFwc8

[ClassClown 0]

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Tom : My hat is off to you, Carol, Alan , And Mark . Your presentations were among the best I've ever seen. Very Profesional. To put it bluntly "Perfect". Mark your presentation was a well needed class and gave the audience the clearest picture possible and a sound understand to skydiving. Your wife is wonderful. Hangdiver you and the better half and (believe me she does look a lot better than you). was a pluss for me to meet. Bruce is a solid reporter and sharp However I think he missed his calling.Like Mark says, He would make a good actor.For all those that couldn't make the Symposium. You missed a once in a lifetime event. I honestly believe that "Dropzone's Cooper thread" should to something like it. The event that followed at the ariel store was a great deal of fun. Blevins sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you, maybe next year. My thanks to Donna for putting on another fantastic party. She always does. Brian Im proud of you . You have come a long ways in the past 2yrs what a buitifull child and a wonderfull wife I realy enjoyed our visit. Geof did a grat job. For the record it took a great deal of courage for everyone to get up in front of all those people and tell there stories and give the presentations that they gave. Farflung you would have been impressed with the presentation of your poem. Geoger you were missed as was Snowmman. Jo, Geof did mention you so you were not left out. Jerry

JT, did you miss me?.........................

[ParrotheadVol 70]

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Thot you guys might be interested in this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knJH2uoFwc8

Saw this the other day. Why wait until 2012? If he knows something he should tell us now.

"They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider

[hangdiver 1]

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Folks reading my posts about the symposium must be thinking who is this Polyanna 377 who likes everyone who shows up at a quasi UFO Bigfoot convention? Good question and I have no answer that will satisfy the cynics.

Hangdiver and "raspberrymoon" were some other symposium attendees who I really liked. Hangdiver and I go way back in Northern California skydiving and knew a lot of the same people. I won't post names, but some of the old school jumpers who were true pioneers in the sport haven't fared well... drugs, injuries, illnesses and all that. Hangdiver and raspberrymoon are taking one of these survivors in and try to get him cleaned up, healthy on back on track. It's a very tough job (I know the guy they will be helping) and altruistic as hell. You just have to love people who show such kindness and concern for a nearly broken person down on his luck.

377

Thanks for the kind words 377...

and...

wish me luck...

raspberrymoon thanks you as well...together we three achieved a dream of starting our own Drop Zone in 1993...many mistakes were made but today we still all care a great deal about each other.

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[EVickiW 0]

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Thot you guys might be interested in this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knJH2uoFwc8

Dan Gryder the man that appears in the video above is the subject of the news story below.

http://www.ajc.com/news/delta-suspends-jailed-pilot-195178.html

Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs

[EVickiW 0]

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVWebInsider_DBCooper_205780-1.html

AVWeb Blog (with comments) featuring Dan Gryder.

Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs

[JerryThomas 0]

ClassClown: Of course. Or did you actually show and not identify yourself. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Hangdiver: Or should I say gimpy are you still in woodland. Jerry