Hominid 0
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arfuller 0
According to Carla's mother the family got a call from the FBI not long after the hijacking. The FBI didn't have a record of it, but said it wouldn't be unusual that they checked people in the vicinity with the name.
The thing about the name is it explains why someone would have an interest in the comic. Why would a Quebec engineer have an interest? I don't speak French, but I bet I could pick up the book and follow the story. They have pictures in them you know.
The thing that surprises me about the people here is that they seem to totally dismiss a five and a half hour FBI polygraph. I don't know if I could pass one of those things even if I was telling the truth.
The thing about the name is it explains why someone would have an interest in the comic. Why would a Quebec engineer have an interest? I don't speak French, but I bet I could pick up the book and follow the story. They have pictures in them you know.
The thing that surprises me about the people here is that they seem to totally dismiss a five and a half hour FBI polygraph. I don't know if I could pass one of those things even if I was telling the truth.
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georger 244
QuoteRobert,
You've posted here that wind at 10,000' was 26 or 25-30 knots from the SW.
Please share where the info came from. The only thing I've found, other than laments about absense of 10000' wind data, is that agent Carr gave the same magnitude (actually "almost 30MPH").
Read the thread!
Hominid 0
Quote
Read the thread!
I've read the thread once. And the previous one. I admit that I skipped posts by some, but I doubt they said what the winds were at 10,000'. I think going through it all is beyond the call of duty. I've also searched both threads.
smokin99 0
QuoteAccording to Carla's mother the family got a call from the FBI not long after the hijacking. The FBI didn't have a record of it, but said it wouldn't be unusual that they checked people in the vicinity with the name.
The thing about the name is it explains why someone would have an interest in the comic. Why would a Quebec engineer have an interest? I don't speak French, but I bet I could pick up the book and follow the story. They have pictures in them you know.
The thing that surprises me about the people here is that they seem to totally dismiss a five and a half hour FBI polygraph. I don't know if I could pass one of those things even if I was telling the truth.
If we're talking about Marla instead of Carla - I'm sorry but who performed the polygraph? Where? What were the actual times started and stopped? When? What type of polygraph? What type of questions? Post the validated/certified results of a certified, licensed polygrapher?
Sorry but I would trust the results of a 5.5 hour polygraph a lot less than I would one that takes 1 hour. Operator fatigue, subject fatigue, bladder control, ....there's a whole bunch of reasons that doesn't make sense.
Besides...I would think that polygraphs are not admissible in some areas for a reason. Plus even if they did work 100% of the time, they are only validating what she believes she saw and heard, or has otherwise convinced herself -- whether consciously or subconsciously or through really creative dreams -- that what she might have seen or heard is the truth. It does not have to be the actual truth of what actually occurred or did not occur. But that's just me....
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2935/how-accurate-are-lie-detector-tests
And an excerpt from here (footnotes removed here for clarity): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph
Polygraphy has also been faulted for failing to trap known spies such as double-agent Aldrich Ames, who passed two polygraph tests while spying for the Soviet Union. Other spies who passed the polygraph include Karl Koecher, Ana Belen Montes, and Leandro Aragoncillo....... Polygraph examination and background checks failed to detect Nada Nadim Prouty, who was not a spy but was convicted for improperly obtaining US citizenship and using it to obtain a restricted position at the FBI.
The polygraph also failed to catch Gary Ridgway, the "Green River Killer". Ridgway passed a polygraph in 1984 and confessed almost 20 years later when confronted with DNA evidence.
Conversely, innocent people have been known to fail polygraph tests. In Wichita, Kansas in 1986, after failing two polygraph tests (one police administered, the other given by an expert that he had hired), Bill Wegerle had to live under a cloud of suspicion of murdering his wife Vicki Wegerle, even though he was neither arrested nor convicted of her death. In March 2004, a letter was sent to The Wichita Eagle reporter Hurst Laviana that contained Vicki's drivers license and what first appeared to be crime scene photographs of her body. The photos had actually been taken by her true murderer, BTK, the serial killer that had plagued the people of Wichita since 1974 and had recently resurfaced in February 2004 after an apparent 25 year period of dormancy (he had actually killed three women between 1985 and 1991, including Wegerle). That effectively cleared Bill Wegerle of the murder of his wife. In 2005 conclusive DNA evidence, including DNA retrieved from under the fingernails of Vicki Wegerle, demonstrated that the BTK Killer was Dennis Rader.
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
Robert99 50
QuoteQuoteRobert,
You've posted here that wind at 10,000' was 26 or 25-30 knots from the SW.
Please share where the info came from. The only thing I've found, other than laments about absense of 10000' wind data, is that agent Carr gave the same magnitude (actually "almost 30MPH").
Read the thread!
Hominid & Georger, Carr did post some weather information for the Orchards area early on this present thread. I don't remember the specific details right off but they are consistent with the numbers and wind direction I used. And if I remember correctly, Carr did not have any winds or weather above 5000 feet. And I don't specifically remember him saying anything about 30 MPH winds aloft from anywhere.
My "26 knot" value resulted from doing the flight path from the take-off in Seattle to a point 10 miles north of the Red Bluff, California VORTAC on V-23. At that point, one Oakland controller told another Oakland controller (during a hand-off) that the airliner was "ten northwest to be exact" of the Red Bluff VORTAC and on V-23. And that was the last point I used. On Sluggo's web page, you will find the details of how I did the calculations.
But basically, I did the climb-out to 10,000 feet separately and concluded that the airliner was quite a bit further south when it reached 10,000 feet at 7:54PM than indicated by the 1954 point on the FBI chart. Oddly, both the FBI chart and I have the airliner at the Mayfield Intersection at almost the same instant.
For the rest of the flight from the time that the airliner reached 10,000 feet to the 10 mile point north of the Red Bluff VORTAC, I considered two or three possible routes in the Portland area. But basicall only two are of any consequence. First I assumed that the airliner stayed on the centerline of V-23 for that entire distance.
I also considered a short cut passing on the west side of Portland. However, this short cut did not have a noticeable influence on the calculations due to the distance covered by the airliner between the two points mentioned above and the time involved.
The true airspeed was calculated from information in the radio transcripts and I then worked backwards to determine what is actually an "average winds aloft speed of 26 knots at 10,000 feet". These calculations were done on a standard pilot's flight calculator (a Jeppesen's CR-3 in this case).
Both the climb out calculations, which involved a lot of assumptions, and the cruise calculations agreed with the actual airliner's performance better than I would have expected.
Note that the "26 knots" is equivalent to 29.9 MPH. It was not planned that way. Again, I don't remember Carr mentioning 30 MPH anywhere.
arfuller 0
The FBI seems to put a lot of stock in its tests. As I understand it, the quality of the test depends a lot on the tester. I don't think most people who were lying would do well under 5 and a half hours of FBI questioning whether there was a polygraph or not. A 5.5 hour polygraph would seem to be about 5.5 times better than a one hour polygraph. I don't think I could lie to the FBI for 5.5 hours. Could you?
Marla said the polygraph was 5.5 hours although she wasn't hooked up to a machine the whole time. The FBI has confirmed they gave her a polygraph, but I don't know if they've addressed the times. If she's lying about that then they just don't wish to call her on it. That doesn't make a lot sense since they've called her the most credible person they've interviewed in the case. The test was in January.
Marla said the polygraph was 5.5 hours although she wasn't hooked up to a machine the whole time. The FBI has confirmed they gave her a polygraph, but I don't know if they've addressed the times. If she's lying about that then they just don't wish to call her on it. That doesn't make a lot sense since they've called her the most credible person they've interviewed in the case. The test was in January.
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Smokin 99: we only have Marla's word on this so called polygraph test. The FBI has not released any info about this test.Jerry
arfuller 0
QuoteSmokin 99: we only have Marla's word on this so called polygraph test. The FBI has not released any info about this test.Jerry
Like I said, the FBI has confirmed she passed a polygraph.
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Blevins : I guess the real question is, could anyone survive this jump? 377 and I have discussed this in detail.377 now has his doubts.Tom Kaye measured the length of cord that was cut from the opened chute. There was just enough missing that would allow cooper to attach the money bag to his side. This was a mistake that an experienced skydiver would never make. After 377 and I discussed this he was in agreement that the chances of Cooper surviving this jump was next to none. Jerry
arfuller 0
QuoteBlevins : I guess the real question is, could anyone survive this jump? 377 and I have discussed this in detail.377 now has his doubts.Tom Kaye measured the length of cord that was cut from the opened chute. there was just enough missing that would allow cooper to attach the money bag to his side. This was a mistake that an experienced skydiver would never make. After 377 and I discussed this he was in agreement that the chances of Cooper surviving this jump was next to none. Jerry
So what's your theory on the placard found in the flight path, the money found where it was, and yet no body, parachute or briefcase. Isn't it more likely he would have landed on the ground rather than in the drink?
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Hominid 0
QuoteAnd if I remember correctly, Carr did not have any winds or weather above 5000 feet. And I don't specifically remember him saying anything about 30 MPH winds aloft from anywhere.
Thanks Robert. Carr's data included 7000' and he said that it applied around Orchards and, in another post, around the 8:15 time. The "30 MPH" was buried in this post and elicited zero discussion, so I would consider it unconfirmed but possible. I do think it odd that he would give some info in one post about winds at 10,000', but then did not include 10,000' in his other posts about wind speed and direction.
smokin99 0
QuoteQuoteThe FBI seems to put a lot of stock in its tests. As I understand it, the quality of the test depends a lot on the tester. I don't think most people who were lying would do well under 5 and a half hours of FBI questioning whether there was a polygraph or not. A 5.5 hour polygraph would seem to be about 5.5 times better than a one hour polygraph. I don't think I could lie to the FBI for 5.5 hours. Could you?
Marla said the polygraph was 5.5 hours although she wasn't hooked up to a machine the whole time. The FBI has confirmed they gave her a polygraph, but I don't know if they've addressed the times. If she's lying about that then they just don't wish to call her on it. That doesn't make a lot sense since they've called her the most credible person they've interviewed in the case. The test was in January.
First - whether the FBI puts stock in the test or not - It's pretty much a known quantity that polygraphs and the people who administer and rely on the results are fallible. Period. This is one of the reasons I would hesitate to take one that lasted any amount of time - even if I were telling the truth. Simply put - I wouldn't trust it or that the people using it might not have an agenda. Period.
Credibility - that's a strong statement - Is she more credible than the witnesses who were there? Or is she more credible than Lyle or Jo or whoever? What exactly does that statement mean?
Maybe Marla has been guilty of putting words in their mouth -- cause you have to admit she also has an agenda here. But I might be wrong.
Second - Though I am skeptical of certain things that she has said, I don't think I said that Marla is lying - and if I did, mea culpa. My point about passing a polygraph was that she might well believe what she is saying, is convinced that it happened - but that does not prove that it actually happened - just that she believes it did.
Take 40 year old memories of an eight year old, spice that up with reading thousands of pages of information (from this forum alone even) about DB Cooper, take an actual event (LD got hurt doing something on Thanksgiving day - maybe he got in a fight and Marla did see blood on a shirt), add in talk about hijacking at the Cooper house (it was on the news, after all - maybe Marla did hear them talking about a hijacking), add in a father who had (to paraphrase Marla) a vivid imagination, add in a strong sense of civic duty, add in motivation and opportunity for publicity for a book (or a cosmetic line) to help all the veterans. You might come up with a scenario where you have someone who believes everything she is saying. Doesn't make it true. Just saying - the mind is a funny thing. I have remembered events that turned out to be totally false from another person's point of view - mixing up separate occurrences and dates with others.
Hey I'll be the first one to say I was wrong and you go girl if they come back with some fingerprints or she finds a twenty dollar bill in the attic. In other words, my friend, I just want the case solved with more than an eight year old's 40 yr old "memories" and a picture (just what color are his eyes?) - no matter what that eight year old looks like now or how credible she comes across.
Just sayin....Tina and Company should be the only hot chicks in this production that matter.
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
arfuller: When did the FBI issue a statement that Marla pass a polygraph test. Why would they test the niece instead of her mother or LD"s wife's ect. They ended up with one of his tooth brushes it had to come from someone closer to him than Marla. If you were a investigator for the FBI wouldn't you test other family members as well. I cerntinally would. Does'nt this intire story of Marla Cooper's smell fishy or at the very least planned and directed by someone with dollar signs . Jerry
arfuller 0
smokin99: Point well taken.
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arfuller: The placard could have been found anywhere . Still the air craft was in a slight deviation at that point, the wind directios at 9500 ft is different that what is experienced at ground level. Yet the flight path was altered in this area to avoid populated area's such as Vancouver/Portland. The aircraft was past the critical mountain elevation at that time, so a direction change was an easy decission for the pilot's to make. Jerry
arfuller 0
Quotearfuller: When did the FBI issue a statement that Marla pass a polygraph test. Why would they test the niece instead of her mother or LD"s wife's ect. They ended up with one of his tooth brushes it had to come from someone closer to him than Marla. If you were a investigator for the FBI wouldn't you test other family members as well. I cerntinally would. Does'nt this intire story of Marla Cooper's smell fishy or at the very least planned and directed by someone with dollar signs . Jerry
I guess I'll have to back off on this one a bit. I'm sure I've read it, but I couldn't Google it. Here is the closest I found.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/db-cooper-dna-results-match/story?id=14258726#.TtwtfWPTpGS
>>When asked if this "no match" finding damaged Marla Cooper's credibility, Gutt replied it did not. "We haven't come up with anything that is inconsistent with her story," he said. Marla Cooper also passed an FBI polygraph test about the case.<<
The full article talks a little bit about Marla's family and the FBI's investigation. I can't really speak about why the FBI does what it does because I don't know, but I got that gut feeling she's 100% truthful. The Daily OK interview convinced me of that.
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Hominid 0
Quote
Rataczak says a lot of this stuff was worked out with NWA's Head of Tech Operations, Paul Sortum. I made a slight mistake there...I should have said they knew when he jumped because of the stairs rebounding, not opening. My error. Here's an excerpt from Blast from the interview with Rataczak:Quote'I do know that our technical support people who were on the radio with us during the hijacking, especially Paul Sortum, tried to determine the exact area where Cooper might have jumped. We relied heavily on him for technical information during the flight. He was head of Technical Operations in our Flight Training Department.'
So, did Rataczak actually not know that the guy's name was Soderlind, or was it just the open-loop transcription?
Robert99 50
QuoteQuoteAnd if I remember correctly, Carr did not have any winds or weather above 5000 feet. And I don't specifically remember him saying anything about 30 MPH winds aloft from anywhere.
Thanks Robert. Carr's data included 7000' and he said that it applied around Orchards and, in another post, around the 8:15 time. The "30 MPH" was buried in this post and elicited zero discussion, so I would consider it unconfirmed but possible.
Hominid, That is not the specific post that I remember Carr making for the Orchard's weather. The one I remember was rather short and had the cloud layers plus wind speed and direction for several altitudes.
arfuller: What date did the FBI release and confirm the results of Marla Coopers polygraph Test?This I would like too see. Now remeber it must be an official release that you post and not second hand Info. Jerry
arfuller 0
Another interesting thing I found while Googling was that back when the story broke, Marla said the FBI was about to close the case without finding out the truth when she got in contact with them. So if that's true, then the FBI was about to close the case even before they knew who Marla was.
The Money Connection
You've posted here that wind at 10,000' was 26 or 25-30 knots from the SW.
Please share where the info came from. The only thing I've found, other than laments about absense of 10000' wind data, is that agent Carr gave the same magnitude (actually "almost 30MPH").
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