DB Cooper

[377 22]

I am not a rigger or chute designer, just a jumper, but I can tell you that my military back pack opened just fine in a horrible spin. I was modified for sport jumping by adding a sleeve, but that shoudlnt have made much difference.

I've only had two reserve deployments and neither involved a spin.

I can't see where either would be ill suited for opening in a spin. They used a powerful spring loaded pilot chute to get the pilot chute away from the jumper and begin to extract the canopy.

I saw many spin openings back in the 60s among beginning freefall students. I never saw anyone get wrapped up in lines or cause a malfunction because they opened in a spin. The system really worked well. Really well.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 247]

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I am not a rigger or chute designer, just a jumper, but I can tell you that my military back pack opened just fine in a horrible spin. I was modified for sport jumping by adding a sleeve, but that shoudlnt have made much difference.

I've only had two reserve deployments and neither involved a spin.

I can't see where either would be ill suited for opening in a spin. They used a powerful spring loaded pilot chute to get the pilot chute away from the jumper and begin to extract the canopy.

I saw many spin openings back in the 60s among beginning freefall students. I never saw anyone get wrapped up in lines or cause a malfunction because they opened in a spin. The system really worked well. Really well.

377

I think it was Quade said 'in a spin reserve is
designed to open, backpack would not.'

According to Cossey, Cooper had only a functional
backpack.

Here it is from Quades post last night:

[Quade: You might survive, but ONLY because
modern reserve parachutes are designed to deploy
even if the person is tumbling. It's part of the spec.
Your main parachute has no such spec. Hope you
know the difference without any instruction]

So I guess the question is: How reliable are NB6/8's
at opening in a spin or tumble?

[matthewcline 0]

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I am not a rigger or chute designer, just a jumper, but I can tell you that my military back pack opened just fine in a horrible spin. I was modified for sport jumping by adding a sleeve, but that shoudlnt have made much difference.

I've only had two reserve deployments and neither involved a spin.

I can't see where either would be ill suited for opening in a spin. They used a powerful spring loaded pilot chute to get the pilot chute away from the jumper and begin to extract the canopy.

I saw many spin openings back in the 60s among beginning freefall students. I never saw anyone get wrapped up in lines or cause a malfunction because they opened in a spin. The system really worked well. Really well.

377

I think it was Quade said 'in a spin reserve is
designed to open, backpack would not.'

According to Cossey, Cooper had only a functional
backpack.

Here it is from Quades post last night:

[Quade: You might survive, but ONLY because
modern reserve parachutes are designed to deploy
even if the person is tumbling. It's part of the spec.
Your main parachute has no such spec. Hope you
know the difference without any instruction]

So I guess the question is: How reliable are NB6/8's
at opening in a spin or tumble?

Well to water it down to the prudent stuff, the NB6/8's are designed as reserves. They are round and open in most every case.

Facts are; No one saw "Cooper" jump, but the Air Crew "think" in hind site they know when he left. So since no one saw him jump, no one knows how stable he was or what the bundle looked like at that moment. All other "facts" for that moment are either right out lies, or imagined.

He could have left in a ball and survived just fine, or he could have spun/tumbled so violently that he passed out and didn't pull any thing.

None of the suspects, here, seem to have enough experience to have pulled off any jump, let alone; one at night, out of a unique A/C, in weather, limited visibility (even for night), and carrying a bundle (even though not overly large).

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[quade 4]

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What Quade and others says about there being no instinct for stable freefall is true.

I learned to jump in 1968. No AFF. No tunnel training. Just a few static line jumps with dummy rip cord pulls and then they threw you out of the plane solo to teach yourself freefall.

I can personally attest to stable freefall being non intuitive. I made elaborate plans to be the exception. I was going to show them by making perfect stable jumps from the outset. I practiced in a swimming pool, exhaling to get neutral buoyancy and then going spread eagle with a strong arch. I was solid as a rock. I'd show those jumpmasters a thing or two next weekend.

It all went to hell. Even on short delays I was turning or flipping or both. On one memorable 30 second delay I got into a horribly tight spin at about 15 sec and couldn't arrest it. My training taught me to pull under those circumstances and I did. I was certain I'd be wrapped up in deploying lines but got a completely normal spin stopping canopy deployment.

After a while you learn, but it sure doesn't come naturally.

They let little kids fly in our local tunnel. I've seen 3 and 4 year olds put teens to shame in very quick learning of freefall stability skills. It's quite amazing. Still, it has to be learned.

377

Last night it was said the reserve chutes were built to
open during a spin, but the old back packs not. Can
you confirm or deny and cover that aspect of this
matter?

What was said was:

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. . . modern reserve parachutes are designed to deploy even if the person is tumbling. It's part of the spec.

I have no actual knowledge of what the spec for reserves was in 1971.

As for mains used in sport jumping, they do not have to comply with the same specs reserve parachutes do. Most mains used for sport parachute jumping in the time period in question were modified military parachutes. If they were modified, then they were clearly operating outside of the original design spec and doing so intentionally to give different opening and control parameters.

In modern times, it's ok to do this as long as the reserve parachute is to spec. People can and do jump some pretty wild stuff sometimes. The reserve being to spec is what saves their lives when things go wrong with deployments.

I'm not certain what the legalities were in 1971.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[BobKnoss 0]

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Yeah but those guys had training on what to do if they needed to eject. We have no clue what Cooper's jump background was.

Yes, we do but you refuse to accept it. Weber was trained by Richard Floyd McCoy, Jr. and Bill. One in the air and the other spotting. Training was by EXPERTS over a whole summer of weekend jumps. The guy who flew the plane was Lindstrom at Flying Cloud Airport in Savage, MN. He had a pilot's training school on the east edge of the airport on hwy 169 and offered jumps as a sideline. Everyone signed the logbook every time with their real names. They repacked the chutes on my lawn, and I often watched as we talked.

[matthewcline 0]

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Yeah but those guys had training on what to do if they needed to eject. We have no clue what Cooper's jump background was.

Yes, we do but you refuse to accept it. Weber was trained by Richard Floyd McCoy, Jr. and Bill. One in the air and the other spotting. Training was by EXPERTS over a whole summer of weekend jumps. The guy who flew the plane was Lindstrom at Flying Cloud Airport in Savage, MN. He had a pilot's training school on the east edge of the airport on hwy 169 and offered jumps as a sideline. Everyone
signed the logbook every time with their real names. They repacked the chutes on my lawn, and I often watched as we talked.

Any actual proof that this is true besides you and Jo just saying it?

Weber does not seem smart enough to have carried the pack let alone executed the jump.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[quade 4]

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Well to water it down to the prudent stuff, the NB6/8's are designed as reserves.

That's essentially true, but what about ones in 1971 which had been modified for sport jumping?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Orange1 0]

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Don’t think there was much ejection training in WWII.

My neighbor bailed out of a B-17 and never said a word about it until I was in flight school and home on vacation. He asked what they ‘trained’ us to do in such a situation. I said there was exactly one approved method and only one technique mentioned. That was the ‘Tuck’ position where the knees were drawn to the chest in a sort of cannonball profile. He said nothing had changed since his jump in ’44.

So if ‘training’ is being told to tuck everything in….. then that was the training. This was literally all the instruction I received (10 seconds total) but I’m sure this too can be made much, much more complicated. Using the chute, ejection seat, PLFs, survival kits, jumping into pits, swing landers, yes even radios and flares we were trained and trained and trained. We even had to eat bugs and drink our own urine as part of the training. OK, the urine part was a lie but jumping and freefall…………………. tuck.

What did McCoy, McNally, LaPoint and Heady do? Why do these case studies always seem to suck the oxygen out of the thread? Is it because they abate the BS factor perhaps?

Well, it would be interesting to see what the survival rate of pilots bailing out was then. Particularly those who bailed at night. Any ideas?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[BobKnoss 0]

377

[BobKnoss 0]

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What did McCoy, McNally, LaPoint and Heady do? Why do these case studies always seem to suck the oxygen out of the thread? Is it because they abate the BS factor perhaps?

McCoy had a full suit with a small sport chute on the shoulders. He backed down the stairs and fell back like a scuba diver. NO PROBLEMO!

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[Amazon 7]

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my point - any experienced jumper of that era would have no trouble with the reserve container sized bundle, IF, it was properly affixed and still intact after the exit.

Matt

FWIW - I interviewed a B-17 Commander from WWII a few years ago. His plane took a hit and became uncontrollable. He had never jumped and was given minimal training regarding a jump other than "get out the door, any door, and pull this thing..." He says he has no idea how fast the B-17 was going when he left it, but it was missing part of a wing and was pretty nose down and there was no one at the controls. He said had no concept of anything regarding parachuting, that was his one and only jump ever. He thinks he pulled immidiately out the door and has no idea his body position relative to earth, but even in 1944 he got a good canopy at a very high exit speed and rode it all the way to where he landed in a tree and cut himself out, only to be captured and spend months in a Russian prison camp eating pigeon leftovers to stay alive. A reserve is designed to work. Speed, body position, whtever. Pull. It works. Now find me an experienced jumper that says that the 727 suspect was a no pull/couldnt pull/total mal. off the very stable stairway of a 727 and that the guy was DOI and let him have his say. Thank you. Dan Gryder

There are THOUSANDS of similar stories from aircrew... bailout rigs work exceedingly well even for those who were tumbling. We learned from those stories.. and designed training for aircrew that every class that went thru Survival Training was taught.

[quade 4]

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There are THOUSANDS of similar stories from aircrew... bailout rigs work exceedingly well even for those who were tumbling. We learned from those stories.. and designed training for aircrew that every class that went thru Survival Training was taught.

But DB Cooper wasn't wearing a bail out rig. He was wearing a rig for sport jumping. Do we know, for instance, if the parachute in question had a free bag or if it had been modified? Modify the parachute and it is no longer the same item with the same reliability of opening.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

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McCoy had a full suit with a small sport chute on the shoulders.

You realize this makes no sense; right?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[EVickiW 0]

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Yeah but those guys had training on what to do if they needed to eject. We have no clue what Cooper's jump background was.

Yes, we do but you refuse to accept it. Weber was trained by Richard Floyd McCoy, Jr. and Bill. One in the air and the other spotting. Training was by EXPERTS over a whole summer of weekend jumps. The guy who flew the plane was Lindstrom at Flying Cloud Airport in Savage, MN. He had a pilot's training school on the east edge of the airport on hwy 169 and offered jumps as a sideline. Everyone signed the logbook every time with their real names. They repacked the chutes on my lawn, and I often watched as we talked.

Last time I drove by Flying Cloud Airport it was in Eden Prairie, MN
http://www.edenprairie.org/vCurrent/live/article.asp?r=2915

Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs

[BobKnoss 0]

Shakopee, not Savage, my BOoBOo.. On the edge of a very tall river bank with tons of beautiful jumping area. Yeah, it is in Eden Prarrie now.
Back in the day it was called the Shakopee airport. The highway turns west there and goes down into the river valley, across the river and into SHAKOPEE. The river used to flood every spring and cover the bridge by 20 feet or more. Savage is NE of Shakopee. I make that mistake often. Savage is the home of Dan Patch, who was Dan Cooper's brother, I think.

[georger 247]

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There are THOUSANDS of similar stories from aircrew... bailout rigs work exceedingly well even for those who were tumbling. We learned from those stories.. and designed training for aircrew that every class that went thru Survival Training was taught.

But DB Cooper wasn't wearing a bail out rig. He was wearing a rig for sport jumping. Do we know, for instance, if the parachute in question had a free bag or if it had been modified? Modify the parachute and it is no longer the same item with the same reliability of opening.

Just an aside: this has become a very intreresting
captivating series of posts - had you not taken thje
bull by the horns last night I wonder if this would
even be happening. So thanks, This is good stuff!

[BobKnoss 0]

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McCoy had a full suit with a small sport chute on the shoulders.

You realize this makes no sense; right?

I posted a picture of the suit he wore. Blue, tight at the ankles, looked like a tight fitting one piece mechanics uniform with a little hump on the back at the shoulders. It was a custom made sport jumping suit. POst was a long time ago.

[DangerousDan 0]

There are THOUSANDS of similar stories from aircrew... bailout rigs work exceedingly well even for those who were tumbling. We learned from those stories.. and designed training for aircrew that every class that went thru Survival Training was taught.

Bailout rigs were good - They were credited with a lot of saves. "Reserves" are even better. As pointed out, reserves are built and packed to higher standards. I let my kids pack my main (under supervision) but my rigger packs my reserves. If you can muster the coordination to pull the little silver handle just a little bit, the container is going to open, and the pilot chute is going to launch.

So...
thousands did it in the war from any airplane in any configuration, on fire and going who knows how fast. Then you have the Cooper copycats that also seemed to have no problem pulling the handle at the appropriate time. But your local hero, Cooper, the FBI is sure this ONE GUY boarded the plane with intent to jump but died on impact because he was a was a no pull/couldnt pull/never pulled/failed to pull/opposed to pulling/afraid to pull/politically opposed to pulling/suffered from a dysfunction couldnt get it out no pull?!?! Really?!?!?! I am still waiting for the experienced skydiver to make a post and state that they hold this opinion, that the body and unopened rig are still laying out there today exactly where they hit. I was told that my poll was woefully flawed. But so far I dont find anyone that is willing to publicly exert an opinion that claims that they believe that this was in fact the case. See attached image of Q5.

[matthewcline 0]

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377

I think it was Quade said 'in a spin reserve is
designed to open, backpack would not.'

According to Cossey, Cooper had only a functional
backpack.

[Farflung 0]

In painfully general terms, the RAF flew at night and the USAAF flew during the day. So if I was to infer any statistics on night jumps and survival it would be using RAF numbers.

My neighbor who got shot down ended up in Stalag 17B, here’s his story (last mission bottom):

http://www.303rdbg.com/358stewart.html

So this indicates a few things: the three that jumped all survived, there were prison camps which were numbered to at least 17 and had to be subdivided into sections. In the realm of many versus few, this indicates many USAAF personnel were held prisoner (thousands) and they were likely delivered via mechanical failure or shoot down with the majority probably having a jump under their belt. I know, wicked scientific of me.

Here’s a publication on Stalag 17B:

http://www.valerosos.com/AMERICANPRISONERSOFWAR.pdf

Of course I had to ask him about torture at the hands of the Hun and he said that was all Hollywood stuff. He said they knew the Germans were losing the war at that point and were probably running out of most everything. He said that someone had crafted a map and it hung on some wall and another guy built a receiver to listen to BBC or whatever broadcasts and plot them on the map. The guards let them keep it up since it was nonsense and nothing but American propaganda. He went on to say that around January of ’45 the commandant began to make semi-regular visits to that barracks for an update on the American Army’s progress. Apparently this was a massive morale boost as well. Hard to believe this guy never said a word about this experience, truly one of the ‘Greatest Generation’.

You’re the ‘Stats Queen‘Orange1, so you tell us what the survival rate appears to be… 50, 65, 94.3456%?

[EVickiW 0]

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Shakopee, not Savage, my BOoBOo..On the edge of a very tall river bank with tons of beautiful jumping area. Yeah, it is in Eden Prarrie now.
Back in the day it was called the Shakopee airport. The highway turns west there and goes down into the river valley, across the river and into SHAKOPEE. The river used to flood every spring and cover the bridge by 20 feet or more. Savage is NE of Shakopee. I make that mistake often. Savage is the home of Dan Patch, who was Dan Cooper's brother, I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ai5pu2ZDNA

Wrong....the correct answer is ........... EDEN PRAIRIE.

According to the history archives, the airport was named Flying Cloud Airport in 1945. In addition, the airport was always located in Eden Prairie. Shakopee is south of the river. http://www.edenprairie.org/vCurrent/live/article.asp?r=1549:

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By the fall of 1945, the sixty acre field was newly graded and seeded and had two new wooden hangers and an administration building. John Stuber, the airfield manager, gave the airport its name – Flying Cloud. Originally, the airport was going to be called Southwest Minneapolis Airport.

Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs

[skyjack71 0]

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The aircraft was doing about 225 MPH at the time Cooper separated from it. So he was actually ABOVE his natural terminal velocity at that time.

A knot equals what in miles?
l.5 miles. The plane was traveling just above stall speed.

I am just a dumb broad, but others can jump from planes going faster than the 727, then Cooper succeeded in jumping Nov. 24, 1971 and he landed and he lived. Have you read ANYTHING about the other successful skyjackings?

I have to agree with statements by professional jumpers on this thread - you sound like a whuffo and I am not saying that as NICELY as the others did.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[quade 4]

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A knot equals what in miles?

1 nautical mile is approximately 1.15 statute miles.

225 MPH is approximately 195.5 knots (a damned FAST exit speed for skydivers).

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[georger 247]

So...
thousands did it in the war from any airplane in any configuration, on fire and going who knows how fast. Then you have the Cooper copycats that also seemed to have no problem pulling the handle at the appropriate time. But your local hero, Cooper, the FBI is sure this ONE GUY boarded the plane with intent to jump but died on impact because he was a was a no pull/couldnt pull/never pulled/failed to pull/opposed to pulling/afraid to pull/politically opposed to pulling/suffered from a dysfunction couldnt get it out no pull?!?! Really?!?!?! I am still waiting for the experienced skydiver to make a post and state that they hold this opinion, that the body and unopened rig are still laying out there today exactly where they hit. I was told that my poll was woefully flawed. But so far I dont find anyone that is willing to publicly exert an opinion that claims that they believe that this was in fact the case. See attached image of Q5.

[Amazon 7]

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There are THOUSANDS of similar stories from aircrew... bailout rigs work exceedingly well even for those who were tumbling. We learned from those stories.. and designed training for aircrew that every class that went thru Survival Training was taught.

But DB Cooper wasn't wearing a bail out rig. He was wearing a rig for sport jumping. Do we know, for instance, if the parachute in question had a free bag or if it had been modified? Modify the parachute and it is no longer the same item with the same reliability of opening.

I have a rig just like it.. wanna try it out???