DB Cooper

[Farflung 0]

smokin99 noticed:

“I couldn't get past this line....

"The body was identified as a skydiver because of the presence of an undeployed parachute at the scene."

Good call Sherlock”

Exactly smokin99, they initially searched months earlier and reported they did not find the body of a skydiver. Apparently they had found several bodies in and around the area but not one ‘of a skydiver’. My goodness, with all the corpses laying about the environs of Perris it is fortunate that the skydiver was still strapped to a parachute or they may still not know who it was.

Perris is rather unique in that it nearly doubled in population within the last ten years. This was in spite of the fact that this hamlet is nestled in one of the most post-apocalyptic landscapes with endless views of utter devastation known to man with a climate that made people in hell coin the phrase ‘it could be worse’. But did this serve as a harbinger of a catastrophic melt-down in the real estate market looming on the horizon? No, because it’s California.

I hope this will clarify some of the confusion associated with ‘Vacationing Vlad’, the many bodies which confounded the search, the apparent apathy of municipal corpse recovery and the good fortune of finding one in a parachute in Perris.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Dear Robert99

Your post leads me to believe that you really did bang your head very hard on the vertical wind tunnel and now you and you posts come out senseless!!!

You say: "Sailshaw, Seriously, you need to start reading the other posts on this thread before posting your nonsense. It would also be nice if you made some attempts to gain some knowledge of aerodynamics, dynamics, gravity, and other physical science subjects."

Robert, you seem to not be able to understand what I write, so I will not even try to respond to your jibberish. Get 377 to explain it to you. He knows my background (science and engineering) and I find out from Jerry you actually did only a couple of jumps in the 60's. So why are you not publishing your two jumps in your experience profile?

In your mind two jumps probably makes you an expert but not to the rest of us, eh?
Bob
sailshaw

Sailshaw, Do YOU REALLY understand what YOU write? I have asked you to read the posts of 377, Quade, and others, in an attempt to help you understand your own claims.

Since by your own statements you are a WHUFFO, what is your basis for calling non-WHUFFO'S WHUFFOS and in a pejorative sense at that.

So WHUFFO are you calling other people WHUFFOS you WHUFFO? Are you related to Jo Weber? She also likes to call other people WHUFFOS while being one herself.

Whatever happened to Guru312? Did he fall off the edge of the planet? Just asking.

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

You miss the point:
I do NOT want to evaluate his Credentials - I want to prove he has lied and that there is NO reason for him to continually keep calling me a liar..

Jo, You can not prove he lied to you without evaluating his credentials! So WHUFFO you making that demand in the first place!

The hollydays always brings out the BEST in people.

[sailshaw 0]

Dear Robert99: I am so sorry that I made a gross mistake in assuming the cloud layer was below 5,000 ft when actually the FBI tells us it was from 5,000 ft to 10,000 ft. So, when DB stepped off the 727 the plane was quickly out of his frame of reference (sight) right a way as he jumped into the cloud layer. Therefore, I believe he only had one frame of reference and that was the wind on his body.

Again, I am truly sorry to you and the DropZone. My thinking must have been that I normally fly above the cloud layer and that DB had clear air down to 5,000 ft. when the reverse was true (clouds down to 5,000 ft)
Bob
sailshaw

[georger 244]

Quote

Dear Robert99: I am so sorry that I made a gross mistake in assuming the cloud layer was below 5,000 ft when actually the FBI tells us it was from 5,000 ft to 10,000 ft. So, when DB stepped off the 727 the plane was quickly out of his frame of reference (sight) right a way as he jumped into the cloud layer. Therefore, I believe he only had one frame of reference and that was the wind on his body.

Again, I am truly sorry to you and the DropZone. My thinking must have been that I normally fly above the cloud layer and that DB had clear air down to 5,000 ft. when the reverse was true (clouds down to 5,000 ft)
Bob
sailshaw

Ckret sayed: Jan 30, 2008, 5:00 AM
Post #1547 of 1694 (1569 views)
Posts: 522 Re: [labrys] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]
________________________________________
In regards to the jump, we no it can be done (McCoy and others) but can it be done under the conditions Cooper did it. Its not just 15 MPH winds it's almost 30 MPH winds at 10,000 feet and its not just rain and clouds it's freezing rain at 200 mph. If you tried to recreate this jump, find a night under these conditions with his equipment, would the jump be sanctioned by any governing body? if not why?

I know we could debate forever the above and still get no where so lets move forward. "

Georger says:

_isnt it strange there are no formal reports?
_Ckret got his info from the "larger file" . . .
_no pilots saved their observation of condx that nite.
_nobody looked up that night and made notes.
_no astronomers were working that night.
_no racoons could see the Moonlight that night
_Rat never said: I can see the Moon in the south.
_Cooper never said: I see Vega and Altair...
_Its was turbulence and fog-ice & thunder snow.
_no diaries made note of the weather that night
_helicopter pilots were grounded due to weather
and kept their lights off on purpose, flew blind.
_there were no collissions with lighted towers ...
_all records have been lost
_Cooper sacked the galley, not turbulence...
_it was a LaNina year.
_no FBI report recorded condxz that night
_Cooper's chute iced shut instantly at bailout
_Bohan's report never happened and is a lie -
_H's book mentions "turbulence" to trick people.
_FBi people cannot be trusted.
_Mensa trumps all data or lack of data.
_Babies must be reborn to become skydivers.
_no wx satellites were working that night.
_the Larger file is bigger than the smaller file, but
smaller than the Very Large larger file. Only Mensa
people can see it and read it!
_credentils are required to see Santa.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Dear Robert99: I am so sorry that I made a gross mistake in assuming the cloud layer was below 5,000 ft when actually the FBI tells us it was from 5,000 ft to 10,000 ft. So, when DB stepped off the 727 the plane was quickly out of his frame of reference (sight) right a way as he jumped into the cloud layer. Therefore, I believe he only had one frame of reference and that was the wind on his body.

Again, I am truly sorry to you and the DropZone. My thinking must have been that I normally fly above the cloud layer and that DB had clear air down to 5,000 ft. when the reverse was true (clouds down to 5,000 ft)
Bob
sailshaw

Sailshaw, What is the source of your statement that "the FBI tells us" that the cloud layer extended from 5,000 feet to 10,000 feet? I presume that you are using "us" in the Royal sense since the FBI has apparently not made that statement to anyone else.

In reality, there is nothing in the extant data that gives the altitude of the cloud tops.

If in fact the FBI did make such a statement to you, then you should know that such a cloud layer would completely invalidate your original claim that Cooper could see the lights of Portland well enough to determine a jump point so that he could land adjacent to the Portland airport.

Again, I refer you to the posts of 377, Quade, and others concerning the usefullness of your "wind on his body" theory.

[377 22]

Georger wrote

Quote

Bohan's report never happened and is a lie

I had almost forgotten about Bohan. Thanks for keeping his outlier weather report alive. Outlier not outliar. I know you were kidding about Bohan being a liar G. His report has always puzzled me.

Bob Knoss, you claim to know exactly where the chute is buried. It's very valuable. Why don't you dig it up?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Georger wrote

Quote

Bohan's report never happened and is a lie

His report has always puzzled me.

377

It should. There is no data to even suggest a wind of 80 knots from the southeast at 14,000 feet that night.

All available data indicates that the wind from the ground to 10,000 feet was from a south to southwesterly direction. At 10,000 feet it was from the southwest at no more than 30 knots.

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

Dear Robert99: I am so sorry that I made a gross mistake in assuming the cloud layer was below 5,000 ft when actually the FBI tells us it was from 5,000 ft to 10,000 ft. So, when DB stepped off the 727 the plane was quickly out of his frame of reference (sight) right a way as he jumped into the cloud layer. Therefore, I believe he only had one frame of reference and that was the wind on his body.

Again, I am truly sorry to you and the DropZone. My thinking must have been that I normally fly above the cloud layer and that DB had clear air down to 5,000 ft. when the reverse was true (clouds down to 5,000 ft)
Bob
sailshaw

Sailshaw, What is the source of your statement that "the FBI tells us" that the cloud layer extended from 5,000 feet to 10,000 feet? I presume that you are using "us" in the Royal sense since the FBI has apparently not made that statement to anyone else.

In reality, there is nothing in the extant data that gives the altitude of the cloud tops.

If in fact the FBI did make such a statement to you, then you should know that such a cloud layer would completely invalidate your original claim that Cooper could see the lights of Portland well enough to determine a jump point so that he could land adjacent to the Portland airport.

Again, I refer you to the posts of 377, Quade, and others concerning the usefullness of your "wind on his body" theory.

Which wind on body?

_Wind from forward motion,
_wind from falling,
_a third weak force wind from any active weather pattern,
_and wind resistence from any tumbling-spinning.

Frame of refenece with respect to which wind?

All of this is happening in time. With allof these
different forces happening almost simultaneously
how does the subject link into any single frame of
reference quickly enought o matter?

So a poll is required!

We need a chart of the probability of survival under
these conditions as a function of training-experience?

Percent % who would survive this jump under these conditions:

_ skydivers with 30+ years experience.
_ skydivers with less than 30 years experience.
_ skydivers with less than 10 years experience.
_ skydivers with 1 year experience.
_ skydivers with no experience.
_ pudknockers with 30+ years experience
_ pudknockers . . .
_ etc

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

Georger wrote

Quote

Bohan's report never happened and is a lie

His report has always puzzled me.

377

It should. There is no data to even suggest a wind of 80 knots from the southeast at 14,000 feet that night.

All available data indicates that the wind from the ground to 10,000 feet was from a south to southwesterly direction. At 10,000 feet it was from the southwest at no more than 30 knots.

While I respect your Mensa card, I want to see a
report?

Why would H include this in his book? Just to
titilate the world?

So, you are saying No Turbulence period. Is this
what you are saying?

Im not arguing. I have no opinion! Just wanna know!

Lacking any report, can you share youre reasoning
process - ?

[377 22]

The highest exit speed I ever did was not from the DC 9 jet but from a firewalled C 130 Herc. I was a test jumper outfitted with black box pressure sensors and a recorder. The purpose was to measure pressure transients to see if an AAD could be fooled into firing on a very high speed tumbling exit.

The outfit commissioning the tests said don't even try to get stable. Just tumble until you slow down to terminal velocity. They really didn't need to tell me that. When I hit the blast it was a wild head over heels tumble with a good spin thrown in. It was pretty violent. There was no way I could use relative wind clues to figure out my orientation. Things were just too chaotic and fast changing. It was a bright sunny day with a clear horizon so as I slowed down I was able to get stable quite easily. At night with no clear heading ref or horizon I don't think I could have figured it out. Arching hard will put you belly to Earth but it doesn't solve the spin problem. A spin can get so fast that it renders the jumper unconscious.

I jumped with a totally blind jumper once. He arched to get belly to Earth and somehow managed not to spin. I think he may have used the feel of the late afternoon sun on his face for a heading ref. He got landing guidance from the ground by radio. He did just fine and had a lot of jumps. I worried about how he could ID a malfunction and deal with it but that's a risk he took.

I've tried to keep a heading with my eyes closed in the wind tunnel. I always end up turning. I avoid any gross assymetries by feel, so the turns aren't too fast, but I think if I added a tumble it would be very hard to avoid a spin.

A tumble at night with no distinct horizon or heading reference is a spin recipe. Jerry and I agree on that.

If a jumper panics then a no pull is a real possibility. Very experienced jumpers have gone in with nothing pulled. Some fight a hard pull right into the ground. Others fixate on pulling the wrong thing, like webbing and go in pulling mightily on something that won't deploy their canopy.

I like to think Cooper got a good canopy. I presented a scenario at the symposium that would not only give him a good canopy but would prevent a tumble and give a gradual opening even at high speed. I showed a movie of the CIA Thailand jumps that proved it is possible simply by pulling right off the stairs.

Did he do that? We don't know. If he was a whuffo and did a freefall then a spin was almost certain. He could stop it by pulling, but if panic set in then that simple task can become very difficult.

The chute is out there. When its found we will know if he landed alive.
Until that day it's all guessing.

Happy Holidays to everyone. Jo, Bob Knoss and Jamie Cooper included. I have a place in my heart even those I spar with. Quade too. He still has a chance to be Santa Claus for 377. And let's never forget Quade's unpopular and never ending battle to keep this forum on dropzone. I am very grateful for that.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Robert99 50]

Georger, My reply seems to have disappeared into the ether. My Internet connection went down for a few minutes before I finished it and everything has now vanished. I'll try it again later.

[georger 244]

Quote

Georger, My reply seems to have disappeared into the ether. My Internet connection went down for a few minutes before I finished it and everything has now vanished. I'll try it again later.

No problem Robert. Have a great Holiday season
and a prosperous New Year. Our best to you and
yours.

G.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Georger, My reply seems to have disappeared into the ether. My Internet connection went down for a few minutes before I finished it and everything has now vanished. I'll try it again later.

The POOF affliction! Are you sure the FBI wasn't involved?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Quote

Georger, My reply seems to have disappeared into the ether. My Internet connection went down for a few minutes before I finished it and everything has now vanished. I'll try it again later.

The POOF affliction! Are you sure the FBI wasn't involved?

Orange, I would suspect Jo Weber first.

[georger 244]

Quote

377 says in part:

Quote

'I showed a movie of the CIA Thailand jumps that proved it is possible simply by pulling right off the stairs...'

We agree wholeheartedly on this point. I have two reasons for believing this is probably the way he did it.

1) Because the stairs did not drop fully after deployment. This means he would have to use his own weight to make them go down, which also means he probably BACKED down the stairs. As I've said before, going forward while attempting to do this would be crazy. You would have to lean forward, and packing all that load. Meanwhile, the stairs are dropping as you go. Imagine yourself looking at that 24-36 inch gap when the stairs opened. Two or three feet open. What the heck do you do? Lean way over and try to make your way down? No way. That's just asking to be thrown down to the bottom of the stairs as soon as they start to drop from your weight. You back down, hanging onto the rail. Even doing it THIS way, you have to imagine that Cooper was probably scared as hell, especially with all the engine blast. He may not have expected the stairs to only partially open when he deployed them. ("F#!k! What the hell?") Ha ha. Big surprise, I'm sure. Then it's all about, 'what do I do now?'

2) Pulling from the end of the stairs, now that you have backed down, and the stairs have opened, makes sense. Also...if you WERE a paratrooper, this would be a lot like a static line jump. Safer, easier. I just don't buy the leap off the stairs scenario at all. If he did, he was already pulling the ripcord.

Yes and there is equally good novice logic for NOT
pulling off the stairs, especially if they arent full
open - namely, that big thing right above his head
expelling steel-furnace-hot gas and displacing
oceans of air per micro-second sounding like ten
Niagra Falls; the ENGINE!

He might be affraid this engine would suck up any
chute pulled right off the stairs, up into its vortex
and - Sayonara. One crispy fried chute and no
Cooper. He has to assume the chute will be pulled
straight out the back and not up into those engines.
He may not be willing to make such an assumption
if he is a novice?

Better to be free of the plane than risk an engine
suckup and fry job!

Compared to your fears of falling off spongy stairs,
that engine is a vastly greater concern, to a novice.
Clearing those engines is a far more obvious
concern.

Better to schlep off the stars or through the hole
and be free of the plane, then pull.


Its a problem to try and think for Cooper, in any
event.

[377 22]

It has literally never crossed my mind that deploying behind a turbine engine of a flying aircraft could result in the chute being ingested in the intake.

I don't think it possible.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 244]

Quote

It has literally never crossed my mind that deploying behind a turbine engine of a flying aircraft could result in the chute being ingested in the intake.

I don't think it possible.

377

Its not the intake, but outflow from the engine.

If Cooper is a novice what does he know?
Its clear he's trying to avoid obvious problems.
If he has never jumped out the back of a 727
how (what) does he know?

That engine is right above his head. And one
to each side. Anyone knows you dont stand behind
a jet engine! And why risk being snagged on
anything associated with those stairs?

Get free of the plane, then pull.

He probably does know he will be free of the plane
in mere fractions of seconds. Why risk anything else?
Have your hand on the ring, let go of the plane,
then pull, 1, 2, 3.

I think we can be sure he had thought this out
and had a plan for the exit (leaving the plane).

(He wanted to be rid of that plane clear back at
Seattle!)

[Robert99 50]

Quote

It has literally never crossed my mind that deploying behind a turbine engine of a flying aircraft could result in the chute being ingested in the intake.

I don't think it possible.

377

377, I believe that Georger was saying that the high velocity exhaust gas from the engine(s) initially induces a flow toward the exhaust gas centerline, and it does. That would, in effect, suck the parachute towards the exhaust gas.

As the exhaust gas moves further from the engine, it expands, mixes with the turbulent flow created by the airframe, and then starts a 5 or 10 minute process of returning to it original (before the airplane passed by) state. Sometimes, it takes even longer to get back to normal conditions.

Tangling with turbine engine exhausts and the turbulence behind big aircraft are definitely no-nos.

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

It has literally never crossed my mind that deploying behind a turbine engine of a flying aircraft could result in the chute being ingested in the intake.

I don't think it possible.

377

377, I believe that Georger was saying that the high velocity exhaust gas from the engine(s) initially induces a flow toward the exhaust gas centerline, and it does. That would, in effect, suck the parachute towards the exhaust gas.

As the exhaust gas moves further from the engine, it expands, mixes with the turbulent flow created by the airframe, and then starts a 5 or 10 minute process of returning to it original (before the airplane passed by) state. Sometimes, it takes even longer to get back to normal conditions.

Tangling with turbine engine exhausts and the turbulence behind big aircraft are definitely no-nos.

Yes. Commonly called 'jet blast' I think ?

Why risk it especially if he has never tried it before
or does not have special knowledge about jet
bailouts? Get free of the plane which takes mere
seconds, then pull.

Be free of the plane and everything associated with
it asap, in the most straightforward manner
possible. That is what he wants.

He is n-number of feet just below the engine. Does
he know how many feet long the unfurled chute will
be? Why risk the chute being torn to shreds by a
jet engine blast? He wont unless he is experienced.
If he is experienced that is a whole other universe.

[377 22]

OK, now I see what Georger meant and it makes sense. An inexperienced person would want to get clear of all those dangers before deploying. That is certainly possible.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[smokin99 0]

Quote

Anyone knows you dont stand behind
a jet engine!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT1yvqcDZZw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1_Cx_gF6ds&feature=related

http://videosift.com/video/Jet-engines-are-great-for-human-projectiles

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Why risk it especially if he has never tried it before
or does not have special knowledge about jet
bailouts? Get free of the plane which takes mere
seconds, then pull.

Be free of the plane and everything associated with
it asap, in the most straightforward manner
possible. That is what he wants.

He is n-number of feet just below the engine. Does
he know how many feet long the unfurled chute will
be? Why risk the chute being torn to shreds by a
jet engine blast? He wont unless he is experienced.
If he is experienced that is a whole other universe.

Although nothing I say matters, but speaking as a Whuffo (a non-jumper), I would have known I had to clear the plane.
He had enough exposure to know he had to do so many counts before pulling and since Duane told me about Ms 1,2,3 counts I will assume he did this.
Anyone ever question why the old military jumpers used this?

At least Georger and 377 continue to treat me in a civil matter and my replies will be condensed to answer the inflammatory questions by only making replies to them.

In regards to JT's DEMANDS below:

"Jo: I have no problem with your request. I will Honor it if you will honor one of mine, That is never Post again, Here is a sample of what I will post a copy of my Diploma from the FT Polk Academy , Drill Seargent School. Dated 21 May 1971. Certificate of Training Survival Instructor Northern Warefare Traing Center FT Greely AK,1979 and 1980. This is just two of many. The others are Ranger school ,Sf, Anoc, First sgt Refresher courses, Sgt major Academy, Ft Bliss TX Ect. The list is Many. Geofry Gray, Ralph Himmelsbach. The FBI to include News Media agencies and producer's have also seen these Documents. Do we have a deal. Jerry"

JT ignored the credentials I asked about. We all know he was a trained jumper and he was in the service. I could go on and on about credentials I have in the real estate and insurance, but these mean diddly squat to anyone reading this thread.

What did I ask JT to prove? What was the focus or my inquiry? I was intent on one specific credential he has referred to more than once to me and others - His educational level outside of the military.

If JT is deceptive or misleading regarding his "formal education" or his collegiate status then he has NO right to call me a liar.

JT knew exactly what I was after, but he chose to list a series of Military credentials and then make demands I never post here. My leaving is NOT conditional upon JT's demands.

JT has consistently bragged to me about his IQ and claimed secretaries did his bidding and not necessary he learn formal means of communications. He claimed to have attended a VERY high ranking University. . Per his posts and lack of communication skills, I dare say he would ever have been accepted at this university.

One should NOT call another person repeatedly a liar when he himself is quilty of some deliberate enormously erroneous information. I noted his Braggart post above and his mention of the university and formal educational level and his IQ level he bragged about to me.

Maybe his parents were rich enough to by his entry?

I will be leaving the thread in the near future, but NOT because JT demands I leave, but on my own terms unless Quade finds reason to ban me prior to my own set time frame.

I came to the DZ for aid and assistance yrs ago and it has been an excellent source. As of recent - the postings of actual jumpers in the DZ seems to be ignored and overwhelmed by the Cooper seekers. The non-jumpers refuse to listen to the voice of reason within the many yrs of experience by those who are and have been jumpers in the 'day'.

The majority of jumpers from the Cooper era have deceased or do not communicate by computer. There are still those guys like Guru and Airtwardo and 377 and others who seem to be voices of reason.

Old Timer smoke jumpers and WW11 are hard to find - from the late 40's & 60's. We are talking 40's/60's training in jumping and the era of Paperlegs Petersen. There are still viable participants of the late 60's who covet their retirement and have allegiance.

Has anyone spoke to Zinstrom or even know if he is still alive?
What happened to Fiesty? Note those who know about jumping from 1945 ot 1960, few are posting in a thread. Most who are posting are civilan jumper's and not old military (Guys, I know a few of you are still there, but I have to make a point to the Cooper seekers).

Most of the Cooper seekers do NOT want to hear the voices of reason the old jumpers keep trying explain.

Suggest JT take in consideration individuals I have talked to over the yr - individuals who never gave JT the time of day much less listen to his gibberish and accusations. It would indeed be wonderful to have had an old timer jumper with me or by my side when I communciated with such individuals as Jerry Helm and others.

Am I name dropping or did I actually go where No one else Dared to Go? Did I actually manage to crawl beneath the covers of the Government or did these guys just get tired of waiting for Uncle Sam to come clean.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[JerryThomas 0]

Jo: No one knows what your after the only thing any one knows for sure is there is something wrong with your mind or method of understanding.Give it up Jo. Jerry

[377 22]

Ad far as I know 727s haven't been jumped in over a decade. I think the last 727 jump was made at WFFC Quincy Illinois in the late 1990s.

727s are not very economical to operate. They require a flight engineer in addition to two pilots and they are not fuel sippers.

I don't think any are flying scheduled airline service in the US. A few freight dogs soldier on but their numbers are dwindling.

Trump still flies his as a biz jet.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.