DB Cooper

[matthewcline 0]

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The basic gist is, any thing you say you, "heard" from another is "hear say".

Matt

You are only partially correct, I believe. Investigate that subject for the exceptions thereof. What makes my statements evidence? GOTCHA!

So far you don't qualify for any "exception", so no "Gotcha". Your statement was that you heard it from others, "Hear say".

If your going to claim you actually witnessed the training and crime being committed, the you would need evidence to corroborate your statement.

With out evidence, there is no; "statement of fact".

Besides, you apparently have no skills the group needed to commit the crime, so you could not possibly have been there or "in the know" or an accomplice.

Matt

Matt, you are so unformed or did you mean "uninformed"? which is why I ask you for answers and proof. that it is really difficult to communicate with you. I'd like to help you out, but I don't have the patience to deal with your negativity. ? calling into question none facts is negative? For your basic premise, let me repeat for your benefit, I was put into this Project at the request of McCoy through coerusion ? by Commander John Anderson in lieu of 4 years in Levenworth So, like Rambo?. My special abilities were an exceptional memory augmented by MK Ultra The beer?. You know nothing of what transpired, and I do not expect you to be understanding, as Jim told me you joined the Crew Who is "Jim"?. Gotcha. I won't respond to anymore of your posts. You have been exposed. Just trying to be nice, here. By your standards or socially acceptable ones? Ask Jerry. Jerry knows everything. Will do, Jerry? Jo forgot more than Bleepins knows, and Bill ain't talkin' at all. Mac ain't sayin' nothin' either. But I DID talk with him often.Before he died? At least HE didn't lie through his teeth..... ya'all.

So I understand.

You're in the Pen, some one figured out you have a good memory, and booze or drug enhanced it is even better (this would mean no need for logs, as you could just spit out the info when needed, hence no records brilliant!). So they gave you a pardon and wiped out all records of your criminal past.

Then you started as the NORJAK Secretary. What next?

The MK stuff, are there any long term side effects? How long did you use it? Is it addicting? is it a gateway?

This, to me, is starting to make sense.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Robert99 50]

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JT: I Have a simple question for all . What proof do we have that cooper actually knew that the aircraft he was on had a Aft stairs. Was he told that prior to landing in Seattle or did he realize it after?

ANSWER: Cooper was specifically interested in the 727 to the point that he confirmed that the incoming flight was a 727 by asking the ticket agent that question. In addition, he entered the aircraft through the aft stairs (NORJACK, page 15). So he was knowledgeable about the aft stairs before the plane left the gate in Portland.

JT: Could he have been told that he could jump from the rear stairs instead of the side doors prior to landing in Seattle or afterwards.

ANSWER: There is no record of the side doors ever being discussed for jumping.

JT: If he knew prior to landing in Seattle that he could jump from the aft stairs couldn't he have known that the aircraft could take off with the aft stairs down with little difficulty other than a dangerous spark causing an explosion?

ANSWER: Cooper DID know that the aircraft could take off with the stairs down (TOSAW, PAGE 28) but NWA personnel argued that it couldn't. So Cooper finally agreed to take off with the stairs up but he immediately told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take off with the stairs down. Cooper also told Tina that she would not be in danger of being sucked out of the aircraft with the stairs down (TOSAW, page 33) a fact later proven by the FBI flight tests.

JT: If he knew about the Aft Stairs, doesn't it make sinse that he would have known how to open it after take off.

ANSWER: The control panel for the aft stairs may have been different on the aircraft that were designed to open the stairs in flight as opposed to the commercial aircraft that did not open the stairs in flight.

JT: Who informed Cooper of a safe speed and altidude to open the aft stairs. If he already knew this Info why would he request that the aft stairs be left down prior to take off. Simple questions but why hasn't these questions been asked. Jerry

ANSWER: Cooper already knew the speed, flap setting, aircraft configuration, and maximum altitude that he wanted to fly at prior to boarding the aircraft in Portland. The obvious answer as to why he wanted to take off with the stairs down is that he wanted to jump shortly after take off and having to lower the stairs in flight would delay that by several minutes.

[JerryThomas 0]

Robert99: Cooper did not know any of the questions I asked there, is no proof only, speculation or assumptions. All you know is what you read, the FBI can not even answer my questions for sure with the records they have. His interest is only what you may have percieved them to be . The real story is ? Jerry

[Robert99 50]

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Robert99: Cooper did not know any of the questions I asked there, is no proof only, speculation or assumptions. All you know is what you read, the FBI can not even answer my questions for sure with the records they have. His interest is only what you may have percieved them to be . The real story is ? Jerry

Jerry, Assuming that the questions you are actually asking are the same questions you think you are asking, then I can only say that you need to do your homework and that will involve some reading. And Sluggo's web page is the ONLY place to start for that information.

Discussions of the aft stairs, aircraft configuration, flap setting, etc., are covered in the FBI Notes, page 003/017, of the FBI Seattle FAX that is posted on Sluggo's page. They are also discussed elsewhere in the radio transcripts. Maybe you and the current people at the FBI in Seattle should read these transcripts.

Since I don't know how to "cut and paste", and have no interest in learning, I can only state again that all of your questions have already been answered on this thread and elsewhere over the past few years.

So to make a long story short, Cooper already had the information that you inquire about before he boarded the aircraft in Portland.

Although you may dislike the written word, it has been found to be a good source of information by some people over the ages.

[georger 244]

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I Have a simple question for all . What proof do we have that cooper actually knew that the aircraft he was on had a Aft stairs. Was he told that prior to landing in Seattle or did he realize it after? Could he have been told that he could jump from the rear stairs instead of the side doors prior to landing in Seattle or afterwards. If he knew prior to landing in Seattle that he could jump from the aft stairs couldn't he have known that the aircraft could take off with the aft stairs down with little difficulty other than a dangerous spark causing an explosion? If he knew about the Aft Stairs, doesn't it make sinse that he would have known how to open it after take off. Who informed Cooper of a safe speed and altidude to open the aft stairs. If he already knew this Info why would he request that the aft stairs be left down prior to take off. Simple questions but why hasn't these questions been asked. Jerry

Well the answers are pretty simple:

_He asked if it would be a 727.
_Any idiot can see 727's have rear stairs.
_He ASSUMED the rear stairs could be out during
takeoff and they would do this. He was baaically
wrong and he didnt argue !
_He assumed the rear door could be opened in flight
but he was unwilling for some reason to do it
himself. Either he was unsure of the procedure or
affraid, or both. So he asked for Tina to do it!
_With the rear door open but stairs not down he
sends Tina forward and attempts to get the stairs
out on his own, but cant at first! Tina even reports -
he is having trouble getting the stairs down(out) so
evidently he had already tried but failed in her
presence.

This is NOT somebody who knows what he's doing
and has extensive expereince with the rear door,
stairs, and very likely a 727 itself.

Remember, he only asked the ticket agent if the
flight was going to be a 727, not what type of 727.

This is a guy operating on general information at
most, about the 727. The kind of information
anyone could get by sitting in an airport watching
727's come and go.

He does have some general knowledge about how
jets fly (or planes fly) as evidenced by his reference
to flaps. He seems to understand the relationship
between 'speed vs flaps' ... but his knoweldge does
not extend to the level of flaps vs fuel consumption,
or even fuel consumpotion vs distance for the 727,
or the distance of Mexico City from Seattle! And he
doesnt even seem to know what the closest Mexican
airport would be from Seattle! He asks for any place
in Mexico ... then specifies Mexico City ... then
settles for Reno! (and bails somewhere near
Vancouver-Portland)

Cooper is surprisingly ignorant, if he has other
technical skills and knowledge-experience!

[georger 244]

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The basic gist is, any thing you say you, "heard" from another is "hear say".

Matt

You are only partially correct, I believe. Investigate that subject for the exceptions thereof. What makes my statements evidence? GOTCHA!

So far you don't qualify for any "exception", so no "Gotcha". Your statement was that you heard it from others, "Hear say".

If your going to claim you actually witnessed the training and crime being committed, the you would need evidence to corroborate your statement.

With out evidence, there is no; "statement of fact".

Besides, you apparently have no skills the group needed to commit the crime, so you could not possibly have been there or "in the know" or an accomplice.

Matt

Matt, you are so unformed or did you mean "uninformed"? which is why I ask you for answers and proof. that it is really difficult to communicate with you. I'd like to help you out, but I don't have the patience to deal with your negativity. ? calling into question none facts is negative? For your basic premise, let me repeat for your benefit, I was put into this Project at the request of McCoy through coerusion ? by Commander John Anderson in lieu of 4 years in Levenworth So, like Rambo?. My special abilities were an exceptional memory augmented by MK Ultra The beer?. You know nothing of what transpired, and I do not expect you to be understanding, as Jim told me you joined the Crew Who is "Jim"?. Gotcha. I won't respond to anymore of your posts. You have been exposed. Just trying to be nice, here. By your standards or socially acceptable ones? Ask Jerry. Jerry knows everything. Will do, Jerry? Jo forgot more than Bleepins knows, and Bill ain't talkin' at all. Mac ain't sayin' nothin' either. But I DID talk with him often.Before he died? At least HE didn't lie through his teeth..... ya'all.

So I understand.

You're in the Pen, some one figured out you have a good memory, and booze or drug enhanced it is even better (this would mean no need for logs, as you could just spit out the info when needed, hence no records brilliant!). So they gave you a pardon and wiped out all records of your criminal past.

Then you started as the NORJAK Secretary. What next?

The MK stuff, are there any long term side effects? How long did you use it? Is it addicting? is it a gateway?

This, to me, is starting to make sense.

Matt

Dont feed the troll ?

[JerryThomas 0]

Robert 99 If Cooper had that information. Prove it. You Can't. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger: Cooper was A iDIOT AND HE DID ASK many questions. The most important was how do i open the Aft stairs. jerry

[georger 244]

. Cooper also told Tina that she would not be in danger of being sucked out of the aircraft with the stairs down (TOSAW, page 33) a fact later proven by the FBI flight tests.

[georger 244]

So to make a long story short, Cooper already had the information that you inquire about before he boarded the aircraft in Portland.

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Precisely. And his level of knowledge had him do -
exactly what he did, and did not do or ask for!

Cooper had the bomb. He could get anything he
wanted up to the point of tipping his hand and
revealing the bomb might not be real, if it wasnt?

If his bomb is not real then what?

Cooper knows!

Cooper knows!

All of his actions are based on that knowledge and
his actual level of control which ONLY he knows.

This isnt an SAT test for Cooper. This is a hijacking.
His life is on the line literally. The whole thing is
either a very high risk bluff or . . .

He knows! (That for him is his ultimate perfect
knowledge if he cares about his Life).

You must judge everything in THAT context if this
guy is rational at all.

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[Robert99 50]

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GEORGER: Well the answers are pretty simple:

_He asked if it would be a 727.
_Any idiot can see 727's have rear stairs.

ANSWER: True. But my guess is that in asking the ticket agent that question, he was only confirming that another aircraft had not been substituted for what he expected to be a 727.

GEORGER: _He ASSUMED the rear stairs could be out during
takeoff and they would do this. He was baaically
wrong and he didnt argue !

ANSWER: The 727 could actually take off with the stairs fully down, assuming there were not locked into position. So Cooper was basically right but gave up arguing the matter just to get airborne.

GEORGER: _He assumed the rear door could be opened in flight
but he was unwilling for some reason to do it
himself. Either he was unsure of the procedure or
affraid, or both. So he asked for Tina to do it!
_With the rear door open but stairs not down he
sends Tina forward and attempts to get the stairs
out on his own, but cant at first! Tina even reports -
he is having trouble getting the stairs down(out) so
evidently he had already tried but failed in her
presence.

ANSWER: Cooper apparently DID know that the stair door could be opened in flight but his knowledge did not extend to commercial 727s.

GEORGER: This is NOT somebody who knows what he's doing and has extensive expereince with the rear door,
stairs, and very likely a 727 itself.

Remember, he only asked the ticket agent if the
flight was going to be a 727, not what type of 727.

This is a guy operating on general information at
most, about the 727. The kind of information
anyone could get by sitting in an airport watching
727's come and go.

ANSWER: Cooper DOES know what he is doing when it comes to 727s. The flap setting specified and aircraft configuration testify to that. How many "types" of 727s were in service in 1971?

GEORGER: He does have some general knowledge about how jets fly (or planes fly) as evidenced by his reference to flaps. He seems to understand the relationship between 'speed vs flaps' ... but his knoweldge does not extend to the level of flaps vs fuel consumption,or even fuel consumpotion vs distance for the 727, or the distance of Mexico City from Seattle! And he doesnt even seem to know what the closest Mexican
airport would be from Seattle! He asks for any place
in Mexico ... then specifies Mexico City ... then
settles for Reno! (and bails somewhere near
Vancouver-Portland)

ANSWER: The parachutes, tieing the money bag to himself, and open aft stairs are excellent indications that Cooper did not have any intention of going to Mexico City or Reno or even back to Portland.

GEORGER: Cooper is surprisingly ignorant, if he has other technical skills and knowledge-experience!

ANSWER: What other skills were evident?

[georger 244]

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Geoger: Cooper was A iDIOT AND HE DID ASK many questions. The most important was how do i open the Aft stairs. jerry

I absolutely agree HE ASKED MANY QUESTIONS!

That is in the 302's.

So much for his perfect knowledge and perfect plan -
this phD in engineering, 727's, and hijacking!

If this guy's bomb was not real he was in way over
his head and needed to escape asap or face certain
capture and possibly being shot dead! Everything
else is secondary.

So, if he has this PERFECT KNOWLEGDE about 727's
et cetera, why isnt he using it? What is his problem?

Telling Tina she wont be sucked out is beside the
point if he's ina rush to get out! DO IT HIMSELF!!!

[georger 244]

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GEORGER: Well the answers are pretty simple:

_He asked if it would be a 727.
_Any idiot can see 727's have rear stairs.

ANSWER: True. But my guess is that in asking the ticket agent that question, he was only confirming that another aircraft had not been substituted for what he expected to be a 727.

GEORGER: _He ASSUMED the rear stairs could be out during
takeoff and they would do this. He was baaically
wrong and he didnt argue !

ANSWER: The 727 could actually take off with the stairs fully down, assuming there were not locked into position. So Cooper was basically right but gave up arguing the matter just to get airborne.

GEORGER: _He assumed the rear door could be opened in flight
but he was unwilling for some reason to do it
himself. Either he was unsure of the procedure or
affraid, or both. So he asked for Tina to do it!
_With the rear door open but stairs not down he
sends Tina forward and attempts to get the stairs
out on his own, but cant at first! Tina even reports -
he is having trouble getting the stairs down(out) so
evidently he had already tried but failed in her
presence.

ANSWER: Cooper apparently DID know that the stair door could be opened in flight but his knowledge did not extend to commercial 727s.

GEORGER: This is NOT somebody who knows what he's doing and has extensive expereince with the rear door,
stairs, and very likely a 727 itself.

Remember, he only asked the ticket agent if the
flight was going to be a 727, not what type of 727.

This is a guy operating on general information at
most, about the 727. The kind of information
anyone could get by sitting in an airport watching
727's come and go.

ANSWER: Cooper DOES know what he is doing when it comes to 727s. The flap setting specified and aircraft configuration testify to that. How many "types" of 727s were in service in 1971?

GEORGER: He does have some general knowledge about how jets fly (or planes fly) as evidenced by his reference to flaps. He seems to understand the relationship between 'speed vs flaps' ... but his knoweldge does not extend to the level of flaps vs fuel consumption,or even fuel consumpotion vs distance for the 727, or the distance of Mexico City from Seattle! And he doesnt even seem to know what the closest Mexican
airport would be from Seattle! He asks for any place
in Mexico ... then specifies Mexico City ... then
settles for Reno! (and bails somewhere near
Vancouver-Portland)

ANSWER: The parachutes, tieing the money bag to himself, and open aft stairs are excellent indications that Cooper did not have any intention of going to Mexico City or Reno or even back to Portland.

GEORGER: Cooper is surprisingly ignorant, if he has other technical skills and knowledge-experience!

ANSWER: What other skills were evident?

Well ... just tell us. Dont pull our tails! Ill come back
tonight for the answers - have things to do other
than sit here and argue with you and Knoss.

[Robert99 50]

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So to make a long story short, Cooper already had the information that you inquire about before he boarded the aircraft in Portland.

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Precisely. And his level of knowledge had him do -
exactly what he did, and did not do or ask for!

Cooper had the bomb. He could get anything he
wanted up to the point of tipping his hand and
revealing the bomb might not be real, if it wasnt?

If his bomb is not real then what?

Cooper knows!

Cooper knows!

All of his actions are based on that knowledge and
his actual level of control which ONLY he knows.

This isnt an SAT test for Cooper. This is a hijacking.
His life is on the line literally. The whole thing is
either a very high risk bluff or . . .

He knows! (That for him is his ultimate perfect
knowledge if he cares about his Life).

You must judge everything in THAT context if this
guy is rational at all.

Personally, I don't think a "rational person" would attempt the hijacking under the existing conditions in the first place. This does not mean that Cooper was stark raving mad. But he apparently did take leave of some of his senses on that particular day.

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[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger: There are many posible answers for few questions. The Main questions are Why did Cooper not no how to open the Aft stairs. Why can't the FBI answer this question in there reports. Did Cooper Know what he was actually doing. real answer is he did not. Everyone on this Forum thinks they know this case. Guess what you don't there is Info that no person has been allowed to review. For instance ,all of you thought that Tina was the best person to identify Cooper. She is Not It is and has always been Florence however florence is a Problem, when it comes to reality.Now Its time to get back to the basics on this case . So once again lets start with what is realy known. We do not no for sure that Cooper new he could jump from the aircraft he chose. Or did we ? We only know that he hijacked a certain flight. We have no solid evidence proving why he chose that flight or the aircraft. So When it boils down to intellengence Blevens , Galens , and jo's Candidate fails. Jerry

[Robert99 50]

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Robert 99 If Cooper had that information. Prove it. You Can't. Jerry

Jerry, Something is getting lost in the translation here. Since Cooper specified the aircraft configuration, flap setting, etc., he MUST HAVE HAD that information. The flight crew did not give him that information, they just reacted to his demands.

[JerryThomas 0]

Robert99:Lost In translation. I don't think so.As I stated earlier was this not recomended to him and it taken as a demand. Or better yet Could Cooper have asked what the best setting could be and the pilots were just covering there tracks Jerry

[Robert99 50]

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Geoger: Cooper was A iDIOT AND HE DID ASK many questions. The most important was how do i open the Aft stairs. jerry

I absolutely agree HE ASKED MANY QUESTIONS!

That is in the 302's.

So much for his perfect knowledge and perfect plan -
this phD in engineering, 727's, and hijacking!

If this guy's bomb was not real he was in way over
his head and needed to escape asap or face certain
capture and possibly being shot dead! Everything
else is secondary.

So, if he has this PERFECT KNOWLEGDE about 727's
et cetera, why isnt he using it? What is his problem?

Telling Tina she wont be sucked out is beside the
point if he's ina rush to get out! DO IT HIMSELF!!!

You are assuming that the CIA operations in Asia used 727s without any modifications to the rear stairs. In the video of the parachute jumps from the Air America 727s, were the aft stairs fully down or did the jumper have to walk down the stairs to give himself enough room to exit the aircraft? Those stairs looked like they were down and locked to me.

Since Boeing and the CIA did some tests involving the aft stairs, and generated a lot of test data in the process, there is no reason why they could not make changes to the aft stairs so that it could stop in intermediate positions or be locked fully down. HOWEVER, to lock those stairs fully down would probably require a modification of the stairs to include a hydraulic system to physically push the stairs fully open against the aerodynamic forces. Remember that the stairs on the commercial aircraft did not have intermediate positions.

And if you are going to modify the stairs in such a manner, you are also going to have to modify the control panel for the stairs. Perhaps that is why Cooper had problems. While he DID know that the aircraft could take off with the stairs at least partially extended, he was not familiar with that particular control panel. And either Tina was a poor teacher or Cooper was not a fast learner.

[Robert99 50]

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Robert99:Lost In translation. I don't think so.As I stated earlier was this not recomended to him and it taken as a demand. Or better yet Could Cooper have asked what the best setting could be and the pilots were just covering there tracks Jerry

Jerry, Read the transcripts on Sluggo's web page! It was Cooper who specified the aircraft configuration, flap setting, etc..

[georger 244]

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Robert99:Lost In translation. I don't think so.As I stated earlier was this not recomended to him and it taken as a demand. Or better yet Could Cooper have asked what the best setting could be and the pilots were just covering there tracks Jerry

Jerry, Read the transcripts on Sluggo's web page! It was Cooper who specified the aircraft configuration, flap setting, etc..

And forgot that you cant fly to Mexico from SEA in
a 727, no matter how configured!

My five year old grandson talks about "flap settings"!
(Because his dad does)

You do know this "conversation" is going nowhere.
People's minds are made up, such as it is. Its like
conversations between sparrows and trees, each
sure of their "facts".

[Robert99 50]

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Robert99:Lost In translation. I don't think so.As I stated earlier was this not recomended to him and it taken as a demand. Or better yet Could Cooper have asked what the best setting could be and the pilots were just covering there tracks Jerry

Jerry, Read the transcripts on Sluggo's web page! It was Cooper who specified the aircraft configuration, flap setting, etc..

And forgot that you cant fly to Mexico from SEA in
a 727, no matter how configured!

My five year old grandson talks about "flap settings"!
(Because his dad does)

Georger, There is nothing to indicate that Cooper planned to go to Mexico. Everything indicates that he planned to bail out at the earliest possible moment.

[georger 244]

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Robert99:Lost In translation. I don't think so.As I stated earlier was this not recomended to him and it taken as a demand. Or better yet Could Cooper have asked what the best setting could be and the pilots were just covering there tracks Jerry

Jerry, Read the transcripts on Sluggo's web page! It was Cooper who specified the aircraft configuration, flap setting, etc..

And forgot that you cant fly to Mexico from SEA in
a 727, no matter how configured!

My five year old grandson talks about "flap settings"!
(Because his dad does)

Georger, There is nothing to indicate that Cooper planned to go to Mexico. Everything indicates that he planned to bail out at the earliest possible moment.

I agree, but he did ask for Mexico.

Maybe they knew he was bull shitting them, with
something so obvious anyone would know he was
bullshitting - to cover his true intentions!

What better way to conceal than to bullshit.

He might as well have said: "Lets go to Mexico City
then turn and come back while I decide I want to go
to Pittsburg. But, "you cannot stop anywhere in the
USA!". "

I think he intended to get back to Portland and
just assumed they would fly a route over land,
going south. He waited until they were nearer
Portland in time and prepped to bail near there ...
and my mind is closed on the topic!

In other words, I think he did exactly what he
intended/wanted to do, and what he wanted to do is
what he did because: He was in total control
more-or-less.

[JerryThomas 0]

Robert99: Slugo's web Page. Why is that FBI documents. No it is not . Post actuall FBI proof. You can not. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

I Have given all of you clue's to research. Jerry

[Robert99 50]

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Robert99: Slugo's web Page. Why is that FBI documents. No it is not . Post actuall FBI proof. You can not. Jerry

Jerry, Those documents are FBI generated and released by the FBI. You seem to be forgetting that the FBI was not involved in the negotiations with the hijacker or the flight planning for the flight from Seattle to Reno. Check Ralph H.'s written statements on this.