georger 244 #30101 January 25, 2012 QuoteI took a copy of surface chart for the 25th, cleaned off most info other than locations, added some locations for which I could find atmospheric pressure for 8pm on jump night. Then added the pressures for stations I could identify in Georger's image 6b, plus some from Weather Underground. Then estimated isobars for 8pm on jump night. Could add some of the other info typically on a surface chart. Nice!! Will digest this this evening and post something .. I guess its no secret that Im loving this. More will come. But this is very nice work Hominid. Maybe I will post an animated gif or two tonight that might help a little, I spoke about earlier; will have to find a size that fits here. later tonight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #30102 January 25, 2012 Georger wroteQuote... this is very nice work Hominid. Sure is! I am enjoying and learning from Naturehomid's School of Localized Weather Variations. Also glad to hear that Sluggo is still kickin. Thanks Tom. Marla seems to have vanished from the vortex. She burned so brightly then faded and fell, like Janet's flare. Will be making some more radio jumps on March 3. I've been using VHF ham gear but might try a 70's vintage CB walkie talkie just for kicks. Breaker breaker, whos got a copy on this here SKYJACKER? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ParrotheadVol 70 #30103 January 26, 2012 QuoteWasnt Dan supposed to ID Cooper by now? 377 All I ever heard was that he would reveal it in 2012. I think it's pretty obvious who is is going to say it is, but I'm still interested to hear his take. I usually enjoy his posts."They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #30104 January 26, 2012 What about the claims of high winds aloft? Image 3b of the data Georger posted is standard FAA/weather service forecasts of winds, at various stations and altitudes, intended to be "for use" starting at 10pm on hijack night and extending for nine hours beyond. The winds should not have been greatly different at around 8:15pm. But how accurate were the forecasts? I compared the 18K' forecasts for 20 of the stations I could identify in the message with the wind speed and direction info on the 500mBar chart for 4am on the 25th (3 hours before the end of the forecast "for use" time). I found the agreement was very good for all but 5 of the stations, and was good for those 5. The five: The 18K' wind over Billings was forecast at 42kt from 250° but turned out to be coded 50kt from 270°. Dillon, MT wind forecast at 34kt turned out to be 40. Kalispell and Spokane winds forecast at 22kt turned out to be 30. Green Bay's forecast at 60kt turned out to be 40kt. It is probable that these differences were from the jetstream taking a slightly different path than had been expected, making winds higher in some places and lower in others.. Because the forecast was good for 18K' altitude, it should have been good also for 9K' and 12K'. The wind speeds forecast for 10pm and later were 30kt or more at 9K' for only 4 stations in the entire area covered by the report. Those stations were Green Bay, Minneapolis, Boise, and Idaho Falls. All of these but Idaho Falls were forecast to be 30kt, and Idaho Falls was forecast to be 33kt. For 12K' the highest forecast speed was 40kt for Minneapolis and 42kt for Green Bay. Seven other stations were forecast to have barely over 30kt. The majority of the stations had forecasts of less than 30kt at 12K'. PDX was forecast to have 31kt from 255°-265° at 12K' and 26kt from the same direction at 9K'. No sustained winds over 30kt at 10K' or below for Portland. Maybe turbulence. Maybe some transient isolated high wind. There has been at times discussion of mysterious Capt. Bohan flying behind flight 305 at 14K' and encountering an 80kt headwind. Sluggo reported on his conversation with Himmelsback about this. Per Sluggo, Himmelsback also said a cold front was coming in. As already mentioned, there were no winds over 60 knots at altitudes of 9K', 12K', or 18K' at any of the stations represented in the winds aloft report shown in image 3b (either forecast or on the 500mBar chart). This included stations from Green Bay to Seattle and Portland, and south down into California, Colorado, Reno and Albequerque. Green Bay, Minneapolis-St.Paul and Aberdeen had the highest forecast for 24K' and they were only 74-77 knots. I think 80kt at 14K' for a period greater than a few seconds was impossible. And, there was no cold front coming in. Maybe a cooling trend, because the area had been heated on the 24th. The claims seem so far "out there" that I would not even accept the existence of "Bohan" without seeing proof of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 50 #30105 January 26, 2012 QuoteNo sustained winds over 30kt at 10K' or below for Portland. I think 80kt at 14K' for a period greater than a few seconds was impossible. And, there was no cold front coming in. The claims seem so far "out there" that I would not even accept the existence of "Bohan" without seeing proof of it. Hominid, You have drawn the correct conclusions in this matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #30106 January 26, 2012 QuoteQuoteWasnt Dan supposed to ID Cooper by now? 377 All I ever heard was that he would reveal it in 2012. I think it's pretty obvious who is is going to say it is, but I'm still interested to hear his take. I usually enjoy his posts. are you referring to this dan Gryder? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knJH2uoFwc8&list=UUJHAQ9u9jYutXJQUmzxC-Dw&index=5&feature=plcp looks like he his trying to use the story that is in the FBI files about a guy claiming to be DB Cooper to a news reporter in the article he stated he had a Beretta concealed in case a passenger or crew member got out of hand, when I questioned him about it, he blocked me!"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #30107 January 26, 2012 QuoteQuoteNo sustained winds over 30kt at 10K' or below for Portland. I think 80kt at 14K' for a period greater than a few seconds was impossible. And, there was no cold front coming in. The claims seem so far "out there" that I would not even accept the existence of "Bohan" without seeing proof of it. Quote So, what conditions could have existed on skyjack night that would have provided the basis for the many anecdotal acounts of fierce weather - Louie, Dona, the gal from the symposium, and Capt Bohan? Also, just to set the record straight, I will go into an isobar no matter how close it is to another isobar. especially if I get to talk about DB Cooper. BTW: on an unrelated story - four hikers are missing on Mount Rainier - and have been for a week, during which time we got the worst storm in forty years. Drifts in the search area on Mt Rainier are as deep as fifty feet, with 10-15 foot accumulations on average. I've written a bunch in the Mountain News about this incident, including this piece: http://themountainnewswa.net/2012/01/24/searchers-seize-weather-break-and-swarm-mount-rainier-but-no-sign-of-missing-hikers/#more-4673 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #30108 January 26, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteNo sustained winds over 30kt at 10K' or below for Portland. I think 80kt at 14K' for a period greater than a few seconds was impossible. And, there was no cold front coming in. The claims seem so far "out there" that I would not even accept the existence of "Bohan" without seeing proof of it. Quote Bruce writes: So, what conditions could have existed on skyjack night that would have provided the basis for the many anecdotal acounts of fierce weather - Louie, Dona, the gal from the symposium, and Capt Bohan? Robert99 replies: The short answer is none. To some extent, it may have been a case of people describing 10 MPH ground winds, 45 degrees F temperatures, and light rain showers as "miserable". But there is a difference between "qualitative" and "quantative" data. The existence of a Captain Bohan, as Hominid points out, remains to be proven. Bruce writes: Also, just to set the record straight, I will go into an isobar no matter how close it is to another isobar. especially if I get to talk about DB Cooper. Robert99 replies: Don't hold your breath waiting for an interview with DB Cooper. In all probability, Cooper was dead within a minute of separating from the airliner. Bruce writes: BTW: on an unrelated story - four hikers are missing on Mount Rainier - and have been for a week, during which the area got the worst storm in fourty years. Drifts in the search area on Mt Rainier are as deep as fifty feet, with 10-15 foot accumulations average. Robert99 replies: You are saying that the previous storm that was as bad as this one was about 1971. Just how bad were the conditions in that storm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #30109 January 26, 2012 BTW: on an unrelated story - four hikers are missing on Mount Rainier - and have been for a week, during which the area got the worst storm in forty years. Drifts in the search area on Mt Rainier are as deep as fifty feet, with 10-15 foot accumulations average. Robert99 replies: You are saying that the previous storm that was as bad as this one was about 1971. Just how bad were the conditions in that storm? Nope, that's not what I'm saying. The storm that hit the PNW in 1971 that is being referenced nowadays is of a date and time that I do not know. Nor do I know how severe it was. All I'm saying is that folks around here are saying, "This storm is the worst in 40 years." What happpened 40 years ago I don't have a clue. meteorlogically. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #30110 January 26, 2012 Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30111 January 26, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteNo sustained winds over 30kt at 10K' or below for Portland. I think 80kt at 14K' for a period greater than a few seconds was impossible. And, there was no cold front coming in. The claims seem so far "out there" that I would not even accept the existence of "Bohan" without seeing proof of it. Quote Bruce writes: So, what conditions could have existed on skyjack night that would have provided the basis for the many anecdotal acounts of fierce weather - Louie, Dona, the gal from the symposium, and Capt Bohan? Robert99 replies: The short answer is none. To some extent, it may have been a case of people describing 10 MPH ground winds, 45 degrees F temperatures, and light rain showers as "miserable". But there is a difference between "qualitative" and "quantative" data. The existence of a Captain Bohan, as Hominid points out, remains to be proven. Bruce writes: Also, just to set the record straight, I will go into an isobar no matter how close it is to another isobar. especially if I get to talk about DB Cooper. Robert99 replies: Don't hold your breath waiting for an interview with DB Cooper. In all probability, Cooper was dead within a minute of separating from the airliner. Bruce writes: BTW: on an unrelated story - four hikers are missing on Mount Rainier - and have been for a week, during which the area got the worst storm in fourty years. Drifts in the search area on Mt Rainier are as deep as fifty feet, with 10-15 foot accumulations average. Robert99 replies: You are saying that the previous storm that was as bad as this one was about 1971. Just how bad were the conditions in that storm? Bruce is only referencing recet headlines which have used 40, 50, 60, and more years for comparison. So, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 1969912 0 #30112 January 26, 2012 Quote Yep. Hope he's doing well. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #30113 January 26, 2012 Bruce is only referencing recent headlines which have used 40, 50, 60, and more years for comparison. So, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Thanks, G - Giddy-up! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #30114 January 26, 2012 This has been fascinating in how the fly shit is being picked out of the pepper regarding the forecasts on Thanksgiving eve 1971 and the utter ignorance displayed with this latest love tap from Mother Nature in the Cascades. What amazes me more are the many cures suggested for an ailment that is completely preventable. Anyone spending more than sixty seconds on the weather charts from Cooper’s flight has never worked with the things as they indicate nothing remotely surprising. No one would look at those winds aloft charts and say….. ya know, I’ll just bet there’s an imbedded, secret storm in that sucker. I should plan accordingly with a canx, new route or delay…… nawww…. I’ll just fly the muther. After all, nothing has happened before and I hold a Doctorate from the ‘University of Borrowed Time’. Flash to 2012 where every dork can get an up to the minute weather forecast, report or advisory right off their iPhone. Therein lies the problem, since dorks can use this technology; by definition dorks will avoid this practice and lament how ‘Nobody told us’ from a hospital bed, should they be so lucky to lament in the first place. This storm was predicted with accuracy, timeliness and full thousand dots per inch color and was ignored by several parties lost on a mountainside. I truly hope they survive as much as I truly hope people will know the difference between lucking out and decision making. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30115 January 26, 2012 QuoteI am also concerned about the hikers on Rainier. The Mountain has taken many lives in the past. Some advice for going up there, slanted toward the 21st century: Take a cell phone and one of those emergency hand-crank radios that can charge your phone. The Red Cross (Eton) makes a good one, complete with siren, Weather Band, LED flashlight and strobe. I HIGHLY recommend it. Anyone who goes up there without a couple of Space Blankets handy should re-examine their load. I carry three or four. They're cheap. They work. A CB radio is old-fashioned, but at night it will ALWAYS be picked up by someone anywhere in Western Washington if you are on The Mountain. Trust me on this. When the cells don't get a signal, your handheld CB WILL. GPS!!!! Not through the cell signal, but from the satellite. This way you can get on your CB and tell people where you are. The usual other stuff. Something to make fire. Extra socks and thermals in a plastic bag...I could go on. I've been stuck on Rainier a couple of times. Having to get up and do a nature duty saved me. Didn't have some of those things that time, or the OTHER time in the Cascades when I was stranded for more than a month in winter conditions. And let's not even discuss how I was washed out into the Pacific for a few days. That was REAL fun. Okay, not really. You learn from these things as long as they don't kill you. On a sadder note, hope is fading for those folks on Rainier. Damn, I hope they survive somehow. If you can make shelter and hang on, you can survive for a long time without food. I was thinking the only way they could be alive is in a snow cave and trying to wait for rescue. If they are alive, then one or more of them may try to walk out at some point. However, there is a big difference between being caught in an avalanche or being lost, or caught in a storm. If they were NOT caught in an avalanche, they may have sought shelter. The weather is due to break soon. They either found shelter, or they are likely dead. That's just an opinion. I hope they are alive somehow. If you search out the latest articles, some of them are more hopeful. In one I read tonight, a Ranger Lofgren, an LEO ranger on Rainier, said this earlier today: Quote"By far and away, no one has given up hope," Lofgren said, noting that climbing parties have waited out storms for days or weeks. Thanks for coming to Dropzone to share your knowledge and experience, with the small select population here! Its like having Jack Lalanne Power Juicer come to school, to show us his muscles. Now every boy wants muscles, and some of the girls want muscles of their own! It's a nobel work you do in behalf of Humanity, all from Adventure Books, in Seattle of course. Do you give courses for the FBI, the government, and the military? Courses for grandmothers and women's club? Is 377 going to take your course? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #30116 January 26, 2012 QuoteSo, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Georger, it is time for you to grow up. You are certainly not in a position to call other people names. Blevins has got you pegged. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hangdiver 1 #30117 January 26, 2012 Thank you for the entertainment... I'm working on raspberrymoon's and my trip deep into Cooper country complete with pics and maps. I'm still in the process of moving...It's been quite a challenge with my torn up knee... I have more shit than a man with intestinal flu......I'm glad to hear Sluggo's healing...keep the stress level down Sluggo...stay away from DZ while you heal...I guess he's already figured that out... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hominid 0 #30118 January 26, 2012 Bruce, I can imagine that someone unaccustomed to "fierce weather" might be really impressed by a minute of wind and rain, especially at night. I think that's about the extent of basis in the weather itself. But, there's plenty of other potential basis. There is the Cooper case "flame" for moths. The anecdotes are not from a random sample. People who come forward on their own may have different motives for doing so. If you surveyed a lot of people who were in the area that night, how would they all describe the weather? There is faulty 40-year-old memory that has been bombarded for the entire 40 years with accounts about the "terrible storm." What in a memory is what actually happened vs. what the person thinks happened because they've heard it for years? There is perception. People have different ideas about what "bad" weather is. How many of the "many" accounts were documented by the observers on that night or even the next morning? Was there even one that had specific description of the weather? Bottom line is we have documented 8pm and 9pm reports from trained weather observers and automated stations scattered around. On the other hand are 40-year-old memories (or fabrications) of people who were scattered around at different places. The overall weather was not of a nature that should have large differences from one place to another. Quote So, what conditions could have existed on skyjack night that would have provided the basis for the many anecdotal acounts of fierce weather - Louie, Dona, the gal from the symposium, and Capt Bohan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hominid 0 #30119 January 26, 2012 In two recent posts I separately mentioned: (1)the thumb-shaped 1016 isobar that was a few miles east of Portland at 4am on hijack day, and (2)that a calm apparently beset Portland from 4pm to 7pm before flight 305 came by. There is a relationship between such isobar shapes and "light and variable" winds. I've attached a copy of that "thumb" marked up to show how surface winds would be along the positions on the inside of that isobar. Note how the wind direction varies radically all along the isobar position. At positions inside the thumb, the pressure gradient would be very, very low. This is because, no matter which way an air molecule would look, it would see almost the same pressure out ahead of it. Because the gradient is low, the wind speed would be low. If you could quickly travel along the isobar, you would see a low wind that would change direction all along the route. If you quickly went across the thumb, you would see the wind drop to near zero speed then come back in almost the opposite direction. You'd see the same if you were still and such an isobar "thumb" passed your position. An isolated "pocket" (closed boundary) low or high would produce basically the same result. In fact, such an isolated pocket very likely existed inside that 1016mBar thumb at 4am. It's typical. It doesn't show on the surface chart because the chart shows a pressure line only for every fourth whole millibar. It's like looking at terrain on a topo map. I don't see how this relationship can be definitely "blamed" for the 4pm-7pm calm shortly before jump time. The isobars were moving basically northward. The surface chart for 4pm on the 25th does not show any "thumb" isobar shape (or even a bump) at or north of Portland. The isobar estimate for 8pm doesn't show one near Portland. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MeyerLouie 5 #30120 January 26, 2012 I've been away for a few days... maybe I missed it, but did you post Sluggo's website info? I'd like to check it out. Thanks. MeyerLouie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30121 January 26, 2012 QuoteBruce, I can imagine that someone unaccustomed to "fierce weather" might be really impressed by a minute of wind and rain, especially at night. I think that's about the extent of basis in the weather itself. But, there's plenty of other potential basis. Is the above a caveat, or what? Almost every post you have made on this subject has included what I am taking as 'a hedge'. Are you saying you see no basis in the data for severe weather in the hijack corridor, but . . . but what? What is it you are saying, and why? Lets get that solved first before moving ahead ... My guess is, you are just trying to be thorough. And that's all this is? If there is something more involved I wish you would say so and close the window for guessing/conjecture. Only you know what your goals are here. Im just a follower in this. Well, a follower interested in the history involved. In spite of attacks against me, Im still keeping an open mind and I have strong reasons-in-fact for doing that. Anyway, that's my reasons in a nutshell. Here are a few anecdotal examples, in case this has been lost in the mix of personal agendas here - this is what was originally at stake...: _ "A meteorologist has told me that the periods between fronts in this area often produce reversal systems for a short period. I believe that is what Bohan was experiencing. And those reverses can be nasty." (researcher) _ "Bohan's fellow pilots were interviewed. He was thorough and he knew the PDX glide-slope like the back of his hand. It was his regular run. And he flew the 727 for Continental. If he was landing at PDX with strong winds from 160-66, he would have been using runway 100 coming in from the west... (another researcher) _ "But Rat did see some lights from the his position on the right, which means he could be seeing either Portland or Vancouver coming into view. That is what he said in his interviews with me ..." (researcher) _ "Rat reported icing and turbulence .... he described the flight as 'rough at times' saying he and Scott 'had their hands full through the Washington part of the flight' ..." (researcher) _ "Rataczak told me that there was some turbulence earlier in the flight..............and some icing. But as the plane neared Vancouver/Portland the clouds were broken." (researcher) _ " acquired weather data from NOAA, NWS, PDX airport, Salem, OR balloon releases...........and had experts examine all of them. Also, I inteviewed Bohan's fellow pilots and Bohan's daughter. They told me that you could take Bohan's word to the bank...............everytime. What I could not obtain were flight records into PDX from 1971. That would have helped ... " (former researcher) _ "“The weather had been so terrible—rain, fog, snow—that agents and local law enforcement could not search the flight path on foot.” (Geoffrey Gray, author of Skyjack: The Hunt for D. B. Cooper") _ "The weather the night of DB Cooper's jump was "horrible" - wet, rainy and cold, and very windy. " (Dona Elliott, proprietress of the Ariel Tavern) _ "At one point, a rain-lashed official in a trenchcoat walked up to the door of the plane. He was from the Federal Aviation Administration, but he was very wet. He requested permission to board, apparently an attempt to reason with the skyjacker. " (FBI agent interview & published statement) _ "... we had two flights come in that day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon around 4:00pm. The one in the AM encountered rain and a little turbulence but the one at 4:00pm radioed and said \ he was in severe turbulence and hard rain, he almost turned around and went back, but he came in and landed. He was very glad to be on the ground and his face said it all .... that was at 4:00 oclock. I dont remember any more storm that day and I finally went home about midnight, but we did listen to some of the hijacking chatter that evening" (small airport manager in the corridor) _ “the hijacking occurred two days before the heavy clouds cleared enough to permit a helicopter search of the lava foothills and farmlands.” Despite their efforts, searchers found nothing “and heavy snows soon sealed the woods off.” (The June 16, 1972, issue of Life magazine) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30122 January 26, 2012 Quote Quote So, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Georger, it is time for you to grow up. You are certainly not in a position to call other people names. Blevins has got you pegged. Or the reverse. Why is it your problem, Nicholson? What's your personal investment in Blevins' petards, and why ? You loaned him money or something? How global is this? Does it involve my cows ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #30123 January 26, 2012 Quote Quote Quote So, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Georger, it is time for you to grow up. You are certainly not in a position to call other people names. Blevins has got you pegged. Or the reverse. Why is it your problem, Nicholson? What's your personal investment in Blevins' petards, and why ? You loaned him money or something? How global is this? Does it involve my cows ? How does all this dribble contribute to the thread? 2/3's of the posts here are juvenile sniping between the usual suspects...if yall can't say sumptin' nice why bother wasting bandwidth? BTW...did I mention you look great today, did you lose weight? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #30124 January 27, 2012 Here are a few anecdotal examples, in case this has been lost in the mix of personal agendas here - this is what was originally at stake...: _ "A meteorologist has told me that the periods between fronts in this area often produce reversal systems for a short period. I believe that is what Bohan was experiencing. And those reverses can be nasty." (researcher) _ "Bohan's fellow pilots were interviewed. He was thorough and he knew the PDX glide-slope like the back of his hand. It was his regular run. And he flew the 727 for Continental. If he was landing at PDX with strong winds from 160-66, he would have been using runway 100 coming in from the west... (another researcher) _ "But Rat did see some lights from the his position on the right, which means he could be seeing either Portland or Vancouver coming into view. That is what he said in his interviews with me ..." (researcher) _ "Rat reported icing and turbulence .... he described the flight as 'rough at times' saying he and Scott 'had their hands full through the Washington part of the flight' ..." (researcher) _ "Rataczak told me that there was some turbulence earlier in the flight..............and some icing. But as the plane neared Vancouver/Portland the clouds were broken." (researcher) _ " acquired weather data from NOAA, NWS, PDX airport, Salem, OR balloon releases...........and had experts examine all of them. Also, I inteviewed Bohan's fellow pilots and Bohan's daughter. They told me that you could take Bohan's word to the bank...............everytime. What I could not obtain were flight records into PDX from 1971. That would have helped ... " (former researcher) _ "“The weather had been so terrible—rain, fog, snow—that agents and local law enforcement could not search the flight path on foot.” (Geoffrey Gray, author of Skyjack: The Hunt for D. B. Cooper") _ "The weather the night of DB Cooper's jump was "horrible" - wet, rainy and cold, and very windy. " (Dona Elliott, proprietress of the Ariel Tavern) _ "At one point, a rain-lashed official in a trenchcoat walked up to the door of the plane. He was from the Federal Aviation Administration, but he was very wet. He requested permission to board, apparently an attempt to reason with the skyjacker. " (FBI agent interview & published statement) _ "... we had two flights come in that day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon around 4:00pm. The one in the AM encountered rain and a little turbulence but the one at 4:00pm radioed and said \ he was in severe turbulence and hard rain, he almost turned around and went back, but he came in and landed. He was very glad to be on the ground and his face said it all .... that was at 4:00 oclock. I dont remember any more storm that day and I finally went home about midnight, but we did listen to some of the hijacking chatter that evening" (small airport manager in the corridor) _ “the hijacking occurred two days before the heavy clouds cleared enough to permit a helicopter search of the lava foothills and farmlands.” Despite their efforts, searchers found nothing “and heavy snows soon sealed the woods off.” (The June 16, 1972, issue of Life magazine) Quote I love this. Thanks, G. So, what do we have going in the skies over SW WA on 11.24.71? Really weird weather? Anomalies that sneak past the usual meteorlogical record keeping? Blips in perceptions? Actual proof of the Many Worlds Theory of Physical Reality? Other poorly understood fluctuations in the Quantum Flux or just regional effects of stuff from the boys at MKULTRA? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #30125 January 27, 2012 Washougal River: Inside of the Washougal loop I call it. Duane talked about a Fire House or Station, Gates, a restaurant or bar the guys hung-out at, a logging camp over on the Washougal, a log cabin where he did some work on the river (there was a log fence around it). He mentioned at one point a bridge no longer there - not far from the Cabin (I thought he meant crossing the Washougal at that point) yet Jerry Thomas said no such thing existed. When we returned from the inside of the loop we went up SR 140 along the Washougal River. Again he mentions the log cabin and a point a bridge used to be. He is carried away and on the upper end of the loop he pulls into an area where we turned around. He made mention of cave or mines futher on around the loop (my memory will not let me recall the details I used to - so you will have to depend on past posts and other writings I have done in reference to this). After we turned around this point and Duane mentioned knowing someone who used to live a certain area - pointing toward what I thought were cabins or double-wide - I could see 3 I know. JT said they never existed, but others say yes.. At any rate we go back the way we came and turned on the road he had missed. This was Coffey Rd., but according to the map it reads SE. 17th . Duane pointed off to our Left a Cemetery - he did NOT give me the name of it, just said it could not be seen from the road (sure enough it was on the maps I acquired). Odd Duane pointed out cemeteries. Now that I have maps I can give names and numbers - so anyone could follow our route in 1979, if they so chose to do so. You will find my early posting and claims match the maps - maps I did NOT have in 1996 when I first related all of this crap to Himmelsbach and to Jerry. We ended up on what was the old 500, but on that route he told me about Camp Bonneville, Little Baldy (which he called Bald Mt), He mentioned a small town near by called Ireland, but I can't see the map very well tonight and it is very small. (he mentioned knowing someone in this small community). Why did the FBI NOT check this out if Himmelsbach relayed what I told him? If not perhaps someone else needs to investigate Weber's presence or knowledge of the area (by whatever name he may have used). This is when he told me about a high fence and I am sure this is the area in which he mentions 2 boys - escaping (this made me think Bonneville was a prison of sorts). One escape and one was caught - no time frame. He mentions a creek and the power lines. He mentioned some more about the Camp - a gravel pit and CampKill Pack. Again he mentions the "guys". We turn and go due North, but I do not know which road - it was wooded in 1979 and a lot of that area has changed and my money and time was limited. He did mention Larch Mtn during this time frame and in 2010 I did learn we passed near the road that would have gone there, but we were approaching the area from the NO. so that was confusing. It all started to look alike. I have tried to explain before, but no one cares but me. I do now know he took me much further NORTH than I had thought. When he told me if we continue on this road we would go to Battle Ground Lake and a gravel pit we were headed back. Now,I realize we had gone much futher north and were actually headed South. No one including myself could ever figure out when he was talking about Farguer Lake and the airstrip. I just know we made a loop. I can no longer read maps - the print is getting finer and lighter everyday. I am tired. It all makes sense to me - but then I am crazy and delusional and off my rocker. I do know we were much further North than I thought when he took me to an area where the tower used to be and the logging road - which was evident by the lower trees that went to railroad track. This was near Heisson, but I did not know that until 2010 on the trip that cost me 5K. Time and space - my memories did NOT account for. They had been condensed to seem closer together so my mind could catalogue them in my memory banks. None of this is important to anyone, but me. I hate I won't be around for the day when someone finally admits Duane Weber's background in the area. I wish I could go back in time, but it gets further and further away with each passing day. Sorry I can't go on. I have done all I can do and I am so tired. It is so senseless to continue to try to convince anyone WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. Strange those words turned out to be the sub-title of Max's book. Maybe things will get better, but the more time that passes the less likely anyone will care. I am forgetting things now and each day and each post becomes a struggle.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1200 1201 1202 1203 1204 1205 1206 1207 1208 1209 1210 Next Page 1205 of 2570 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 50 50 Go To Topic Listing
Robert99 50 #30108 January 26, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteNo sustained winds over 30kt at 10K' or below for Portland. I think 80kt at 14K' for a period greater than a few seconds was impossible. And, there was no cold front coming in. The claims seem so far "out there" that I would not even accept the existence of "Bohan" without seeing proof of it. Quote Bruce writes: So, what conditions could have existed on skyjack night that would have provided the basis for the many anecdotal acounts of fierce weather - Louie, Dona, the gal from the symposium, and Capt Bohan? Robert99 replies: The short answer is none. To some extent, it may have been a case of people describing 10 MPH ground winds, 45 degrees F temperatures, and light rain showers as "miserable". But there is a difference between "qualitative" and "quantative" data. The existence of a Captain Bohan, as Hominid points out, remains to be proven. Bruce writes: Also, just to set the record straight, I will go into an isobar no matter how close it is to another isobar. especially if I get to talk about DB Cooper. Robert99 replies: Don't hold your breath waiting for an interview with DB Cooper. In all probability, Cooper was dead within a minute of separating from the airliner. Bruce writes: BTW: on an unrelated story - four hikers are missing on Mount Rainier - and have been for a week, during which the area got the worst storm in fourty years. Drifts in the search area on Mt Rainier are as deep as fifty feet, with 10-15 foot accumulations average. Robert99 replies: You are saying that the previous storm that was as bad as this one was about 1971. Just how bad were the conditions in that storm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #30109 January 26, 2012 BTW: on an unrelated story - four hikers are missing on Mount Rainier - and have been for a week, during which the area got the worst storm in forty years. Drifts in the search area on Mt Rainier are as deep as fifty feet, with 10-15 foot accumulations average. Robert99 replies: You are saying that the previous storm that was as bad as this one was about 1971. Just how bad were the conditions in that storm? Nope, that's not what I'm saying. The storm that hit the PNW in 1971 that is being referenced nowadays is of a date and time that I do not know. Nor do I know how severe it was. All I'm saying is that folks around here are saying, "This storm is the worst in 40 years." What happpened 40 years ago I don't have a clue. meteorlogically. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #30110 January 26, 2012 Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30111 January 26, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteNo sustained winds over 30kt at 10K' or below for Portland. I think 80kt at 14K' for a period greater than a few seconds was impossible. And, there was no cold front coming in. The claims seem so far "out there" that I would not even accept the existence of "Bohan" without seeing proof of it. Quote Bruce writes: So, what conditions could have existed on skyjack night that would have provided the basis for the many anecdotal acounts of fierce weather - Louie, Dona, the gal from the symposium, and Capt Bohan? Robert99 replies: The short answer is none. To some extent, it may have been a case of people describing 10 MPH ground winds, 45 degrees F temperatures, and light rain showers as "miserable". But there is a difference between "qualitative" and "quantative" data. The existence of a Captain Bohan, as Hominid points out, remains to be proven. Bruce writes: Also, just to set the record straight, I will go into an isobar no matter how close it is to another isobar. especially if I get to talk about DB Cooper. Robert99 replies: Don't hold your breath waiting for an interview with DB Cooper. In all probability, Cooper was dead within a minute of separating from the airliner. Bruce writes: BTW: on an unrelated story - four hikers are missing on Mount Rainier - and have been for a week, during which the area got the worst storm in fourty years. Drifts in the search area on Mt Rainier are as deep as fifty feet, with 10-15 foot accumulations average. Robert99 replies: You are saying that the previous storm that was as bad as this one was about 1971. Just how bad were the conditions in that storm? Bruce is only referencing recet headlines which have used 40, 50, 60, and more years for comparison. So, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 1969912 0 #30112 January 26, 2012 Quote Yep. Hope he's doing well. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #30113 January 26, 2012 Bruce is only referencing recent headlines which have used 40, 50, 60, and more years for comparison. So, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Thanks, G - Giddy-up! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #30114 January 26, 2012 This has been fascinating in how the fly shit is being picked out of the pepper regarding the forecasts on Thanksgiving eve 1971 and the utter ignorance displayed with this latest love tap from Mother Nature in the Cascades. What amazes me more are the many cures suggested for an ailment that is completely preventable. Anyone spending more than sixty seconds on the weather charts from Cooper’s flight has never worked with the things as they indicate nothing remotely surprising. No one would look at those winds aloft charts and say….. ya know, I’ll just bet there’s an imbedded, secret storm in that sucker. I should plan accordingly with a canx, new route or delay…… nawww…. I’ll just fly the muther. After all, nothing has happened before and I hold a Doctorate from the ‘University of Borrowed Time’. Flash to 2012 where every dork can get an up to the minute weather forecast, report or advisory right off their iPhone. Therein lies the problem, since dorks can use this technology; by definition dorks will avoid this practice and lament how ‘Nobody told us’ from a hospital bed, should they be so lucky to lament in the first place. This storm was predicted with accuracy, timeliness and full thousand dots per inch color and was ignored by several parties lost on a mountainside. I truly hope they survive as much as I truly hope people will know the difference between lucking out and decision making. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30115 January 26, 2012 QuoteI am also concerned about the hikers on Rainier. The Mountain has taken many lives in the past. Some advice for going up there, slanted toward the 21st century: Take a cell phone and one of those emergency hand-crank radios that can charge your phone. The Red Cross (Eton) makes a good one, complete with siren, Weather Band, LED flashlight and strobe. I HIGHLY recommend it. Anyone who goes up there without a couple of Space Blankets handy should re-examine their load. I carry three or four. They're cheap. They work. A CB radio is old-fashioned, but at night it will ALWAYS be picked up by someone anywhere in Western Washington if you are on The Mountain. Trust me on this. When the cells don't get a signal, your handheld CB WILL. GPS!!!! Not through the cell signal, but from the satellite. This way you can get on your CB and tell people where you are. The usual other stuff. Something to make fire. Extra socks and thermals in a plastic bag...I could go on. I've been stuck on Rainier a couple of times. Having to get up and do a nature duty saved me. Didn't have some of those things that time, or the OTHER time in the Cascades when I was stranded for more than a month in winter conditions. And let's not even discuss how I was washed out into the Pacific for a few days. That was REAL fun. Okay, not really. You learn from these things as long as they don't kill you. On a sadder note, hope is fading for those folks on Rainier. Damn, I hope they survive somehow. If you can make shelter and hang on, you can survive for a long time without food. I was thinking the only way they could be alive is in a snow cave and trying to wait for rescue. If they are alive, then one or more of them may try to walk out at some point. However, there is a big difference between being caught in an avalanche or being lost, or caught in a storm. If they were NOT caught in an avalanche, they may have sought shelter. The weather is due to break soon. They either found shelter, or they are likely dead. That's just an opinion. I hope they are alive somehow. If you search out the latest articles, some of them are more hopeful. In one I read tonight, a Ranger Lofgren, an LEO ranger on Rainier, said this earlier today: Quote"By far and away, no one has given up hope," Lofgren said, noting that climbing parties have waited out storms for days or weeks. Thanks for coming to Dropzone to share your knowledge and experience, with the small select population here! Its like having Jack Lalanne Power Juicer come to school, to show us his muscles. Now every boy wants muscles, and some of the girls want muscles of their own! It's a nobel work you do in behalf of Humanity, all from Adventure Books, in Seattle of course. Do you give courses for the FBI, the government, and the military? Courses for grandmothers and women's club? Is 377 going to take your course? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #30116 January 26, 2012 QuoteSo, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Georger, it is time for you to grow up. You are certainly not in a position to call other people names. Blevins has got you pegged. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hangdiver 1 #30117 January 26, 2012 Thank you for the entertainment... I'm working on raspberrymoon's and my trip deep into Cooper country complete with pics and maps. I'm still in the process of moving...It's been quite a challenge with my torn up knee... I have more shit than a man with intestinal flu......I'm glad to hear Sluggo's healing...keep the stress level down Sluggo...stay away from DZ while you heal...I guess he's already figured that out... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hominid 0 #30118 January 26, 2012 Bruce, I can imagine that someone unaccustomed to "fierce weather" might be really impressed by a minute of wind and rain, especially at night. I think that's about the extent of basis in the weather itself. But, there's plenty of other potential basis. There is the Cooper case "flame" for moths. The anecdotes are not from a random sample. People who come forward on their own may have different motives for doing so. If you surveyed a lot of people who were in the area that night, how would they all describe the weather? There is faulty 40-year-old memory that has been bombarded for the entire 40 years with accounts about the "terrible storm." What in a memory is what actually happened vs. what the person thinks happened because they've heard it for years? There is perception. People have different ideas about what "bad" weather is. How many of the "many" accounts were documented by the observers on that night or even the next morning? Was there even one that had specific description of the weather? Bottom line is we have documented 8pm and 9pm reports from trained weather observers and automated stations scattered around. On the other hand are 40-year-old memories (or fabrications) of people who were scattered around at different places. The overall weather was not of a nature that should have large differences from one place to another. Quote So, what conditions could have existed on skyjack night that would have provided the basis for the many anecdotal acounts of fierce weather - Louie, Dona, the gal from the symposium, and Capt Bohan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hominid 0 #30119 January 26, 2012 In two recent posts I separately mentioned: (1)the thumb-shaped 1016 isobar that was a few miles east of Portland at 4am on hijack day, and (2)that a calm apparently beset Portland from 4pm to 7pm before flight 305 came by. There is a relationship between such isobar shapes and "light and variable" winds. I've attached a copy of that "thumb" marked up to show how surface winds would be along the positions on the inside of that isobar. Note how the wind direction varies radically all along the isobar position. At positions inside the thumb, the pressure gradient would be very, very low. This is because, no matter which way an air molecule would look, it would see almost the same pressure out ahead of it. Because the gradient is low, the wind speed would be low. If you could quickly travel along the isobar, you would see a low wind that would change direction all along the route. If you quickly went across the thumb, you would see the wind drop to near zero speed then come back in almost the opposite direction. You'd see the same if you were still and such an isobar "thumb" passed your position. An isolated "pocket" (closed boundary) low or high would produce basically the same result. In fact, such an isolated pocket very likely existed inside that 1016mBar thumb at 4am. It's typical. It doesn't show on the surface chart because the chart shows a pressure line only for every fourth whole millibar. It's like looking at terrain on a topo map. I don't see how this relationship can be definitely "blamed" for the 4pm-7pm calm shortly before jump time. The isobars were moving basically northward. The surface chart for 4pm on the 25th does not show any "thumb" isobar shape (or even a bump) at or north of Portland. The isobar estimate for 8pm doesn't show one near Portland. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MeyerLouie 5 #30120 January 26, 2012 I've been away for a few days... maybe I missed it, but did you post Sluggo's website info? I'd like to check it out. Thanks. MeyerLouie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30121 January 26, 2012 QuoteBruce, I can imagine that someone unaccustomed to "fierce weather" might be really impressed by a minute of wind and rain, especially at night. I think that's about the extent of basis in the weather itself. But, there's plenty of other potential basis. Is the above a caveat, or what? Almost every post you have made on this subject has included what I am taking as 'a hedge'. Are you saying you see no basis in the data for severe weather in the hijack corridor, but . . . but what? What is it you are saying, and why? Lets get that solved first before moving ahead ... My guess is, you are just trying to be thorough. And that's all this is? If there is something more involved I wish you would say so and close the window for guessing/conjecture. Only you know what your goals are here. Im just a follower in this. Well, a follower interested in the history involved. In spite of attacks against me, Im still keeping an open mind and I have strong reasons-in-fact for doing that. Anyway, that's my reasons in a nutshell. Here are a few anecdotal examples, in case this has been lost in the mix of personal agendas here - this is what was originally at stake...: _ "A meteorologist has told me that the periods between fronts in this area often produce reversal systems for a short period. I believe that is what Bohan was experiencing. And those reverses can be nasty." (researcher) _ "Bohan's fellow pilots were interviewed. He was thorough and he knew the PDX glide-slope like the back of his hand. It was his regular run. And he flew the 727 for Continental. If he was landing at PDX with strong winds from 160-66, he would have been using runway 100 coming in from the west... (another researcher) _ "But Rat did see some lights from the his position on the right, which means he could be seeing either Portland or Vancouver coming into view. That is what he said in his interviews with me ..." (researcher) _ "Rat reported icing and turbulence .... he described the flight as 'rough at times' saying he and Scott 'had their hands full through the Washington part of the flight' ..." (researcher) _ "Rataczak told me that there was some turbulence earlier in the flight..............and some icing. But as the plane neared Vancouver/Portland the clouds were broken." (researcher) _ " acquired weather data from NOAA, NWS, PDX airport, Salem, OR balloon releases...........and had experts examine all of them. Also, I inteviewed Bohan's fellow pilots and Bohan's daughter. They told me that you could take Bohan's word to the bank...............everytime. What I could not obtain were flight records into PDX from 1971. That would have helped ... " (former researcher) _ "“The weather had been so terrible—rain, fog, snow—that agents and local law enforcement could not search the flight path on foot.” (Geoffrey Gray, author of Skyjack: The Hunt for D. B. Cooper") _ "The weather the night of DB Cooper's jump was "horrible" - wet, rainy and cold, and very windy. " (Dona Elliott, proprietress of the Ariel Tavern) _ "At one point, a rain-lashed official in a trenchcoat walked up to the door of the plane. He was from the Federal Aviation Administration, but he was very wet. He requested permission to board, apparently an attempt to reason with the skyjacker. " (FBI agent interview & published statement) _ "... we had two flights come in that day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon around 4:00pm. The one in the AM encountered rain and a little turbulence but the one at 4:00pm radioed and said \ he was in severe turbulence and hard rain, he almost turned around and went back, but he came in and landed. He was very glad to be on the ground and his face said it all .... that was at 4:00 oclock. I dont remember any more storm that day and I finally went home about midnight, but we did listen to some of the hijacking chatter that evening" (small airport manager in the corridor) _ “the hijacking occurred two days before the heavy clouds cleared enough to permit a helicopter search of the lava foothills and farmlands.” Despite their efforts, searchers found nothing “and heavy snows soon sealed the woods off.” (The June 16, 1972, issue of Life magazine) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30122 January 26, 2012 Quote Quote So, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Georger, it is time for you to grow up. You are certainly not in a position to call other people names. Blevins has got you pegged. Or the reverse. Why is it your problem, Nicholson? What's your personal investment in Blevins' petards, and why ? You loaned him money or something? How global is this? Does it involve my cows ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #30123 January 26, 2012 Quote Quote Quote So, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Georger, it is time for you to grow up. You are certainly not in a position to call other people names. Blevins has got you pegged. Or the reverse. Why is it your problem, Nicholson? What's your personal investment in Blevins' petards, and why ? You loaned him money or something? How global is this? Does it involve my cows ? How does all this dribble contribute to the thread? 2/3's of the posts here are juvenile sniping between the usual suspects...if yall can't say sumptin' nice why bother wasting bandwidth? BTW...did I mention you look great today, did you lose weight? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #30124 January 27, 2012 Here are a few anecdotal examples, in case this has been lost in the mix of personal agendas here - this is what was originally at stake...: _ "A meteorologist has told me that the periods between fronts in this area often produce reversal systems for a short period. I believe that is what Bohan was experiencing. And those reverses can be nasty." (researcher) _ "Bohan's fellow pilots were interviewed. He was thorough and he knew the PDX glide-slope like the back of his hand. It was his regular run. And he flew the 727 for Continental. If he was landing at PDX with strong winds from 160-66, he would have been using runway 100 coming in from the west... (another researcher) _ "But Rat did see some lights from the his position on the right, which means he could be seeing either Portland or Vancouver coming into view. That is what he said in his interviews with me ..." (researcher) _ "Rat reported icing and turbulence .... he described the flight as 'rough at times' saying he and Scott 'had their hands full through the Washington part of the flight' ..." (researcher) _ "Rataczak told me that there was some turbulence earlier in the flight..............and some icing. But as the plane neared Vancouver/Portland the clouds were broken." (researcher) _ " acquired weather data from NOAA, NWS, PDX airport, Salem, OR balloon releases...........and had experts examine all of them. Also, I inteviewed Bohan's fellow pilots and Bohan's daughter. They told me that you could take Bohan's word to the bank...............everytime. What I could not obtain were flight records into PDX from 1971. That would have helped ... " (former researcher) _ "“The weather had been so terrible—rain, fog, snow—that agents and local law enforcement could not search the flight path on foot.” (Geoffrey Gray, author of Skyjack: The Hunt for D. B. Cooper") _ "The weather the night of DB Cooper's jump was "horrible" - wet, rainy and cold, and very windy. " (Dona Elliott, proprietress of the Ariel Tavern) _ "At one point, a rain-lashed official in a trenchcoat walked up to the door of the plane. He was from the Federal Aviation Administration, but he was very wet. He requested permission to board, apparently an attempt to reason with the skyjacker. " (FBI agent interview & published statement) _ "... we had two flights come in that day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon around 4:00pm. The one in the AM encountered rain and a little turbulence but the one at 4:00pm radioed and said \ he was in severe turbulence and hard rain, he almost turned around and went back, but he came in and landed. He was very glad to be on the ground and his face said it all .... that was at 4:00 oclock. I dont remember any more storm that day and I finally went home about midnight, but we did listen to some of the hijacking chatter that evening" (small airport manager in the corridor) _ “the hijacking occurred two days before the heavy clouds cleared enough to permit a helicopter search of the lava foothills and farmlands.” Despite their efforts, searchers found nothing “and heavy snows soon sealed the woods off.” (The June 16, 1972, issue of Life magazine) Quote I love this. Thanks, G. So, what do we have going in the skies over SW WA on 11.24.71? Really weird weather? Anomalies that sneak past the usual meteorlogical record keeping? Blips in perceptions? Actual proof of the Many Worlds Theory of Physical Reality? Other poorly understood fluctuations in the Quantum Flux or just regional effects of stuff from the boys at MKULTRA? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #30125 January 27, 2012 Washougal River: Inside of the Washougal loop I call it. Duane talked about a Fire House or Station, Gates, a restaurant or bar the guys hung-out at, a logging camp over on the Washougal, a log cabin where he did some work on the river (there was a log fence around it). He mentioned at one point a bridge no longer there - not far from the Cabin (I thought he meant crossing the Washougal at that point) yet Jerry Thomas said no such thing existed. When we returned from the inside of the loop we went up SR 140 along the Washougal River. Again he mentions the log cabin and a point a bridge used to be. He is carried away and on the upper end of the loop he pulls into an area where we turned around. He made mention of cave or mines futher on around the loop (my memory will not let me recall the details I used to - so you will have to depend on past posts and other writings I have done in reference to this). After we turned around this point and Duane mentioned knowing someone who used to live a certain area - pointing toward what I thought were cabins or double-wide - I could see 3 I know. JT said they never existed, but others say yes.. At any rate we go back the way we came and turned on the road he had missed. This was Coffey Rd., but according to the map it reads SE. 17th . Duane pointed off to our Left a Cemetery - he did NOT give me the name of it, just said it could not be seen from the road (sure enough it was on the maps I acquired). Odd Duane pointed out cemeteries. Now that I have maps I can give names and numbers - so anyone could follow our route in 1979, if they so chose to do so. You will find my early posting and claims match the maps - maps I did NOT have in 1996 when I first related all of this crap to Himmelsbach and to Jerry. We ended up on what was the old 500, but on that route he told me about Camp Bonneville, Little Baldy (which he called Bald Mt), He mentioned a small town near by called Ireland, but I can't see the map very well tonight and it is very small. (he mentioned knowing someone in this small community). Why did the FBI NOT check this out if Himmelsbach relayed what I told him? If not perhaps someone else needs to investigate Weber's presence or knowledge of the area (by whatever name he may have used). This is when he told me about a high fence and I am sure this is the area in which he mentions 2 boys - escaping (this made me think Bonneville was a prison of sorts). One escape and one was caught - no time frame. He mentions a creek and the power lines. He mentioned some more about the Camp - a gravel pit and CampKill Pack. Again he mentions the "guys". We turn and go due North, but I do not know which road - it was wooded in 1979 and a lot of that area has changed and my money and time was limited. He did mention Larch Mtn during this time frame and in 2010 I did learn we passed near the road that would have gone there, but we were approaching the area from the NO. so that was confusing. It all started to look alike. I have tried to explain before, but no one cares but me. I do now know he took me much further NORTH than I had thought. When he told me if we continue on this road we would go to Battle Ground Lake and a gravel pit we were headed back. Now,I realize we had gone much futher north and were actually headed South. No one including myself could ever figure out when he was talking about Farguer Lake and the airstrip. I just know we made a loop. I can no longer read maps - the print is getting finer and lighter everyday. I am tired. It all makes sense to me - but then I am crazy and delusional and off my rocker. I do know we were much further North than I thought when he took me to an area where the tower used to be and the logging road - which was evident by the lower trees that went to railroad track. This was near Heisson, but I did not know that until 2010 on the trip that cost me 5K. Time and space - my memories did NOT account for. They had been condensed to seem closer together so my mind could catalogue them in my memory banks. None of this is important to anyone, but me. I hate I won't be around for the day when someone finally admits Duane Weber's background in the area. I wish I could go back in time, but it gets further and further away with each passing day. Sorry I can't go on. I have done all I can do and I am so tired. It is so senseless to continue to try to convince anyone WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. Strange those words turned out to be the sub-title of Max's book. Maybe things will get better, but the more time that passes the less likely anyone will care. I am forgetting things now and each day and each post becomes a struggle.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1200 1201 1202 1203 1204 1205 1206 1207 1208 1209 1210 Next Page 1205 of 2570 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 50 50 Go To Topic Listing
BruceSmith 3 #30109 January 26, 2012 BTW: on an unrelated story - four hikers are missing on Mount Rainier - and have been for a week, during which the area got the worst storm in forty years. Drifts in the search area on Mt Rainier are as deep as fifty feet, with 10-15 foot accumulations average. Robert99 replies: You are saying that the previous storm that was as bad as this one was about 1971. Just how bad were the conditions in that storm? Nope, that's not what I'm saying. The storm that hit the PNW in 1971 that is being referenced nowadays is of a date and time that I do not know. Nor do I know how severe it was. All I'm saying is that folks around here are saying, "This storm is the worst in 40 years." What happpened 40 years ago I don't have a clue. meteorlogically. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #30110 January 26, 2012 Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #30111 January 26, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteNo sustained winds over 30kt at 10K' or below for Portland. I think 80kt at 14K' for a period greater than a few seconds was impossible. And, there was no cold front coming in. The claims seem so far "out there" that I would not even accept the existence of "Bohan" without seeing proof of it. Quote Bruce writes: So, what conditions could have existed on skyjack night that would have provided the basis for the many anecdotal acounts of fierce weather - Louie, Dona, the gal from the symposium, and Capt Bohan? Robert99 replies: The short answer is none. To some extent, it may have been a case of people describing 10 MPH ground winds, 45 degrees F temperatures, and light rain showers as "miserable". But there is a difference between "qualitative" and "quantative" data. The existence of a Captain Bohan, as Hominid points out, remains to be proven. Bruce writes: Also, just to set the record straight, I will go into an isobar no matter how close it is to another isobar. especially if I get to talk about DB Cooper. Robert99 replies: Don't hold your breath waiting for an interview with DB Cooper. In all probability, Cooper was dead within a minute of separating from the airliner. Bruce writes: BTW: on an unrelated story - four hikers are missing on Mount Rainier - and have been for a week, during which the area got the worst storm in fourty years. Drifts in the search area on Mt Rainier are as deep as fifty feet, with 10-15 foot accumulations average. Robert99 replies: You are saying that the previous storm that was as bad as this one was about 1971. Just how bad were the conditions in that storm? Bruce is only referencing recet headlines which have used 40, 50, 60, and more years for comparison. So, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 1969912 0 #30112 January 26, 2012 Quote Yep. Hope he's doing well. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #30113 January 26, 2012 Bruce is only referencing recent headlines which have used 40, 50, 60, and more years for comparison. So, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Thanks, G - Giddy-up! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #30114 January 26, 2012 This has been fascinating in how the fly shit is being picked out of the pepper regarding the forecasts on Thanksgiving eve 1971 and the utter ignorance displayed with this latest love tap from Mother Nature in the Cascades. What amazes me more are the many cures suggested for an ailment that is completely preventable. Anyone spending more than sixty seconds on the weather charts from Cooper’s flight has never worked with the things as they indicate nothing remotely surprising. No one would look at those winds aloft charts and say….. ya know, I’ll just bet there’s an imbedded, secret storm in that sucker. I should plan accordingly with a canx, new route or delay…… nawww…. I’ll just fly the muther. After all, nothing has happened before and I hold a Doctorate from the ‘University of Borrowed Time’. Flash to 2012 where every dork can get an up to the minute weather forecast, report or advisory right off their iPhone. Therein lies the problem, since dorks can use this technology; by definition dorks will avoid this practice and lament how ‘Nobody told us’ from a hospital bed, should they be so lucky to lament in the first place. This storm was predicted with accuracy, timeliness and full thousand dots per inch color and was ignored by several parties lost on a mountainside. I truly hope they survive as much as I truly hope people will know the difference between lucking out and decision making. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30115 January 26, 2012 QuoteI am also concerned about the hikers on Rainier. The Mountain has taken many lives in the past. Some advice for going up there, slanted toward the 21st century: Take a cell phone and one of those emergency hand-crank radios that can charge your phone. The Red Cross (Eton) makes a good one, complete with siren, Weather Band, LED flashlight and strobe. I HIGHLY recommend it. Anyone who goes up there without a couple of Space Blankets handy should re-examine their load. I carry three or four. They're cheap. They work. A CB radio is old-fashioned, but at night it will ALWAYS be picked up by someone anywhere in Western Washington if you are on The Mountain. Trust me on this. When the cells don't get a signal, your handheld CB WILL. GPS!!!! Not through the cell signal, but from the satellite. This way you can get on your CB and tell people where you are. The usual other stuff. Something to make fire. Extra socks and thermals in a plastic bag...I could go on. I've been stuck on Rainier a couple of times. Having to get up and do a nature duty saved me. Didn't have some of those things that time, or the OTHER time in the Cascades when I was stranded for more than a month in winter conditions. And let's not even discuss how I was washed out into the Pacific for a few days. That was REAL fun. Okay, not really. You learn from these things as long as they don't kill you. On a sadder note, hope is fading for those folks on Rainier. Damn, I hope they survive somehow. If you can make shelter and hang on, you can survive for a long time without food. I was thinking the only way they could be alive is in a snow cave and trying to wait for rescue. If they are alive, then one or more of them may try to walk out at some point. However, there is a big difference between being caught in an avalanche or being lost, or caught in a storm. If they were NOT caught in an avalanche, they may have sought shelter. The weather is due to break soon. They either found shelter, or they are likely dead. That's just an opinion. I hope they are alive somehow. If you search out the latest articles, some of them are more hopeful. In one I read tonight, a Ranger Lofgren, an LEO ranger on Rainier, said this earlier today: Quote"By far and away, no one has given up hope," Lofgren said, noting that climbing parties have waited out storms for days or weeks. Thanks for coming to Dropzone to share your knowledge and experience, with the small select population here! Its like having Jack Lalanne Power Juicer come to school, to show us his muscles. Now every boy wants muscles, and some of the girls want muscles of their own! It's a nobel work you do in behalf of Humanity, all from Adventure Books, in Seattle of course. Do you give courses for the FBI, the government, and the military? Courses for grandmothers and women's club? Is 377 going to take your course? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #30116 January 26, 2012 QuoteSo, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Georger, it is time for you to grow up. You are certainly not in a position to call other people names. Blevins has got you pegged. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hangdiver 1 #30117 January 26, 2012 Thank you for the entertainment... I'm working on raspberrymoon's and my trip deep into Cooper country complete with pics and maps. I'm still in the process of moving...It's been quite a challenge with my torn up knee... I have more shit than a man with intestinal flu......I'm glad to hear Sluggo's healing...keep the stress level down Sluggo...stay away from DZ while you heal...I guess he's already figured that out... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hominid 0 #30118 January 26, 2012 Bruce, I can imagine that someone unaccustomed to "fierce weather" might be really impressed by a minute of wind and rain, especially at night. I think that's about the extent of basis in the weather itself. But, there's plenty of other potential basis. There is the Cooper case "flame" for moths. The anecdotes are not from a random sample. People who come forward on their own may have different motives for doing so. If you surveyed a lot of people who were in the area that night, how would they all describe the weather? There is faulty 40-year-old memory that has been bombarded for the entire 40 years with accounts about the "terrible storm." What in a memory is what actually happened vs. what the person thinks happened because they've heard it for years? There is perception. People have different ideas about what "bad" weather is. How many of the "many" accounts were documented by the observers on that night or even the next morning? Was there even one that had specific description of the weather? Bottom line is we have documented 8pm and 9pm reports from trained weather observers and automated stations scattered around. On the other hand are 40-year-old memories (or fabrications) of people who were scattered around at different places. The overall weather was not of a nature that should have large differences from one place to another. Quote So, what conditions could have existed on skyjack night that would have provided the basis for the many anecdotal acounts of fierce weather - Louie, Dona, the gal from the symposium, and Capt Bohan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hominid 0 #30119 January 26, 2012 In two recent posts I separately mentioned: (1)the thumb-shaped 1016 isobar that was a few miles east of Portland at 4am on hijack day, and (2)that a calm apparently beset Portland from 4pm to 7pm before flight 305 came by. There is a relationship between such isobar shapes and "light and variable" winds. I've attached a copy of that "thumb" marked up to show how surface winds would be along the positions on the inside of that isobar. Note how the wind direction varies radically all along the isobar position. At positions inside the thumb, the pressure gradient would be very, very low. This is because, no matter which way an air molecule would look, it would see almost the same pressure out ahead of it. Because the gradient is low, the wind speed would be low. If you could quickly travel along the isobar, you would see a low wind that would change direction all along the route. If you quickly went across the thumb, you would see the wind drop to near zero speed then come back in almost the opposite direction. You'd see the same if you were still and such an isobar "thumb" passed your position. An isolated "pocket" (closed boundary) low or high would produce basically the same result. In fact, such an isolated pocket very likely existed inside that 1016mBar thumb at 4am. It's typical. It doesn't show on the surface chart because the chart shows a pressure line only for every fourth whole millibar. It's like looking at terrain on a topo map. I don't see how this relationship can be definitely "blamed" for the 4pm-7pm calm shortly before jump time. The isobars were moving basically northward. The surface chart for 4pm on the 25th does not show any "thumb" isobar shape (or even a bump) at or north of Portland. The isobar estimate for 8pm doesn't show one near Portland. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MeyerLouie 5 #30120 January 26, 2012 I've been away for a few days... maybe I missed it, but did you post Sluggo's website info? I'd like to check it out. Thanks. MeyerLouie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30121 January 26, 2012 QuoteBruce, I can imagine that someone unaccustomed to "fierce weather" might be really impressed by a minute of wind and rain, especially at night. I think that's about the extent of basis in the weather itself. But, there's plenty of other potential basis. Is the above a caveat, or what? Almost every post you have made on this subject has included what I am taking as 'a hedge'. Are you saying you see no basis in the data for severe weather in the hijack corridor, but . . . but what? What is it you are saying, and why? Lets get that solved first before moving ahead ... My guess is, you are just trying to be thorough. And that's all this is? If there is something more involved I wish you would say so and close the window for guessing/conjecture. Only you know what your goals are here. Im just a follower in this. Well, a follower interested in the history involved. In spite of attacks against me, Im still keeping an open mind and I have strong reasons-in-fact for doing that. Anyway, that's my reasons in a nutshell. Here are a few anecdotal examples, in case this has been lost in the mix of personal agendas here - this is what was originally at stake...: _ "A meteorologist has told me that the periods between fronts in this area often produce reversal systems for a short period. I believe that is what Bohan was experiencing. And those reverses can be nasty." (researcher) _ "Bohan's fellow pilots were interviewed. He was thorough and he knew the PDX glide-slope like the back of his hand. It was his regular run. And he flew the 727 for Continental. If he was landing at PDX with strong winds from 160-66, he would have been using runway 100 coming in from the west... (another researcher) _ "But Rat did see some lights from the his position on the right, which means he could be seeing either Portland or Vancouver coming into view. That is what he said in his interviews with me ..." (researcher) _ "Rat reported icing and turbulence .... he described the flight as 'rough at times' saying he and Scott 'had their hands full through the Washington part of the flight' ..." (researcher) _ "Rataczak told me that there was some turbulence earlier in the flight..............and some icing. But as the plane neared Vancouver/Portland the clouds were broken." (researcher) _ " acquired weather data from NOAA, NWS, PDX airport, Salem, OR balloon releases...........and had experts examine all of them. Also, I inteviewed Bohan's fellow pilots and Bohan's daughter. They told me that you could take Bohan's word to the bank...............everytime. What I could not obtain were flight records into PDX from 1971. That would have helped ... " (former researcher) _ "“The weather had been so terrible—rain, fog, snow—that agents and local law enforcement could not search the flight path on foot.” (Geoffrey Gray, author of Skyjack: The Hunt for D. B. Cooper") _ "The weather the night of DB Cooper's jump was "horrible" - wet, rainy and cold, and very windy. " (Dona Elliott, proprietress of the Ariel Tavern) _ "At one point, a rain-lashed official in a trenchcoat walked up to the door of the plane. He was from the Federal Aviation Administration, but he was very wet. He requested permission to board, apparently an attempt to reason with the skyjacker. " (FBI agent interview & published statement) _ "... we had two flights come in that day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon around 4:00pm. The one in the AM encountered rain and a little turbulence but the one at 4:00pm radioed and said \ he was in severe turbulence and hard rain, he almost turned around and went back, but he came in and landed. He was very glad to be on the ground and his face said it all .... that was at 4:00 oclock. I dont remember any more storm that day and I finally went home about midnight, but we did listen to some of the hijacking chatter that evening" (small airport manager in the corridor) _ “the hijacking occurred two days before the heavy clouds cleared enough to permit a helicopter search of the lava foothills and farmlands.” Despite their efforts, searchers found nothing “and heavy snows soon sealed the woods off.” (The June 16, 1972, issue of Life magazine) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30122 January 26, 2012 Quote Quote So, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Georger, it is time for you to grow up. You are certainly not in a position to call other people names. Blevins has got you pegged. Or the reverse. Why is it your problem, Nicholson? What's your personal investment in Blevins' petards, and why ? You loaned him money or something? How global is this? Does it involve my cows ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #30123 January 26, 2012 Quote Quote Quote So, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Georger, it is time for you to grow up. You are certainly not in a position to call other people names. Blevins has got you pegged. Or the reverse. Why is it your problem, Nicholson? What's your personal investment in Blevins' petards, and why ? You loaned him money or something? How global is this? Does it involve my cows ? How does all this dribble contribute to the thread? 2/3's of the posts here are juvenile sniping between the usual suspects...if yall can't say sumptin' nice why bother wasting bandwidth? BTW...did I mention you look great today, did you lose weight? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #30124 January 27, 2012 Here are a few anecdotal examples, in case this has been lost in the mix of personal agendas here - this is what was originally at stake...: _ "A meteorologist has told me that the periods between fronts in this area often produce reversal systems for a short period. I believe that is what Bohan was experiencing. And those reverses can be nasty." (researcher) _ "Bohan's fellow pilots were interviewed. He was thorough and he knew the PDX glide-slope like the back of his hand. It was his regular run. And he flew the 727 for Continental. If he was landing at PDX with strong winds from 160-66, he would have been using runway 100 coming in from the west... (another researcher) _ "But Rat did see some lights from the his position on the right, which means he could be seeing either Portland or Vancouver coming into view. That is what he said in his interviews with me ..." (researcher) _ "Rat reported icing and turbulence .... he described the flight as 'rough at times' saying he and Scott 'had their hands full through the Washington part of the flight' ..." (researcher) _ "Rataczak told me that there was some turbulence earlier in the flight..............and some icing. But as the plane neared Vancouver/Portland the clouds were broken." (researcher) _ " acquired weather data from NOAA, NWS, PDX airport, Salem, OR balloon releases...........and had experts examine all of them. Also, I inteviewed Bohan's fellow pilots and Bohan's daughter. They told me that you could take Bohan's word to the bank...............everytime. What I could not obtain were flight records into PDX from 1971. That would have helped ... " (former researcher) _ "“The weather had been so terrible—rain, fog, snow—that agents and local law enforcement could not search the flight path on foot.” (Geoffrey Gray, author of Skyjack: The Hunt for D. B. Cooper") _ "The weather the night of DB Cooper's jump was "horrible" - wet, rainy and cold, and very windy. " (Dona Elliott, proprietress of the Ariel Tavern) _ "At one point, a rain-lashed official in a trenchcoat walked up to the door of the plane. He was from the Federal Aviation Administration, but he was very wet. He requested permission to board, apparently an attempt to reason with the skyjacker. " (FBI agent interview & published statement) _ "... we had two flights come in that day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon around 4:00pm. The one in the AM encountered rain and a little turbulence but the one at 4:00pm radioed and said \ he was in severe turbulence and hard rain, he almost turned around and went back, but he came in and landed. He was very glad to be on the ground and his face said it all .... that was at 4:00 oclock. I dont remember any more storm that day and I finally went home about midnight, but we did listen to some of the hijacking chatter that evening" (small airport manager in the corridor) _ “the hijacking occurred two days before the heavy clouds cleared enough to permit a helicopter search of the lava foothills and farmlands.” Despite their efforts, searchers found nothing “and heavy snows soon sealed the woods off.” (The June 16, 1972, issue of Life magazine) Quote I love this. Thanks, G. So, what do we have going in the skies over SW WA on 11.24.71? Really weird weather? Anomalies that sneak past the usual meteorlogical record keeping? Blips in perceptions? Actual proof of the Many Worlds Theory of Physical Reality? Other poorly understood fluctuations in the Quantum Flux or just regional effects of stuff from the boys at MKULTRA? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #30125 January 27, 2012 Washougal River: Inside of the Washougal loop I call it. Duane talked about a Fire House or Station, Gates, a restaurant or bar the guys hung-out at, a logging camp over on the Washougal, a log cabin where he did some work on the river (there was a log fence around it). He mentioned at one point a bridge no longer there - not far from the Cabin (I thought he meant crossing the Washougal at that point) yet Jerry Thomas said no such thing existed. When we returned from the inside of the loop we went up SR 140 along the Washougal River. Again he mentions the log cabin and a point a bridge used to be. He is carried away and on the upper end of the loop he pulls into an area where we turned around. He made mention of cave or mines futher on around the loop (my memory will not let me recall the details I used to - so you will have to depend on past posts and other writings I have done in reference to this). After we turned around this point and Duane mentioned knowing someone who used to live a certain area - pointing toward what I thought were cabins or double-wide - I could see 3 I know. JT said they never existed, but others say yes.. At any rate we go back the way we came and turned on the road he had missed. This was Coffey Rd., but according to the map it reads SE. 17th . Duane pointed off to our Left a Cemetery - he did NOT give me the name of it, just said it could not be seen from the road (sure enough it was on the maps I acquired). Odd Duane pointed out cemeteries. Now that I have maps I can give names and numbers - so anyone could follow our route in 1979, if they so chose to do so. You will find my early posting and claims match the maps - maps I did NOT have in 1996 when I first related all of this crap to Himmelsbach and to Jerry. We ended up on what was the old 500, but on that route he told me about Camp Bonneville, Little Baldy (which he called Bald Mt), He mentioned a small town near by called Ireland, but I can't see the map very well tonight and it is very small. (he mentioned knowing someone in this small community). Why did the FBI NOT check this out if Himmelsbach relayed what I told him? If not perhaps someone else needs to investigate Weber's presence or knowledge of the area (by whatever name he may have used). This is when he told me about a high fence and I am sure this is the area in which he mentions 2 boys - escaping (this made me think Bonneville was a prison of sorts). One escape and one was caught - no time frame. He mentions a creek and the power lines. He mentioned some more about the Camp - a gravel pit and CampKill Pack. Again he mentions the "guys". We turn and go due North, but I do not know which road - it was wooded in 1979 and a lot of that area has changed and my money and time was limited. He did mention Larch Mtn during this time frame and in 2010 I did learn we passed near the road that would have gone there, but we were approaching the area from the NO. so that was confusing. It all started to look alike. I have tried to explain before, but no one cares but me. I do now know he took me much further NORTH than I had thought. When he told me if we continue on this road we would go to Battle Ground Lake and a gravel pit we were headed back. Now,I realize we had gone much futher north and were actually headed South. No one including myself could ever figure out when he was talking about Farguer Lake and the airstrip. I just know we made a loop. I can no longer read maps - the print is getting finer and lighter everyday. I am tired. It all makes sense to me - but then I am crazy and delusional and off my rocker. I do know we were much further North than I thought when he took me to an area where the tower used to be and the logging road - which was evident by the lower trees that went to railroad track. This was near Heisson, but I did not know that until 2010 on the trip that cost me 5K. Time and space - my memories did NOT account for. They had been condensed to seem closer together so my mind could catalogue them in my memory banks. None of this is important to anyone, but me. I hate I won't be around for the day when someone finally admits Duane Weber's background in the area. I wish I could go back in time, but it gets further and further away with each passing day. Sorry I can't go on. I have done all I can do and I am so tired. It is so senseless to continue to try to convince anyone WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. Strange those words turned out to be the sub-title of Max's book. Maybe things will get better, but the more time that passes the less likely anyone will care. I am forgetting things now and each day and each post becomes a struggle.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1200 1201 1202 1203 1204 1205 1206 1207 1208 1209 1210 Next Page 1205 of 2570 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 50 50 Go To Topic Listing
1969912 0 #30112 January 26, 2012 Quote Yep. Hope he's doing well. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #30113 January 26, 2012 Bruce is only referencing recent headlines which have used 40, 50, 60, and more years for comparison. So, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Thanks, G - Giddy-up! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #30114 January 26, 2012 This has been fascinating in how the fly shit is being picked out of the pepper regarding the forecasts on Thanksgiving eve 1971 and the utter ignorance displayed with this latest love tap from Mother Nature in the Cascades. What amazes me more are the many cures suggested for an ailment that is completely preventable. Anyone spending more than sixty seconds on the weather charts from Cooper’s flight has never worked with the things as they indicate nothing remotely surprising. No one would look at those winds aloft charts and say….. ya know, I’ll just bet there’s an imbedded, secret storm in that sucker. I should plan accordingly with a canx, new route or delay…… nawww…. I’ll just fly the muther. After all, nothing has happened before and I hold a Doctorate from the ‘University of Borrowed Time’. Flash to 2012 where every dork can get an up to the minute weather forecast, report or advisory right off their iPhone. Therein lies the problem, since dorks can use this technology; by definition dorks will avoid this practice and lament how ‘Nobody told us’ from a hospital bed, should they be so lucky to lament in the first place. This storm was predicted with accuracy, timeliness and full thousand dots per inch color and was ignored by several parties lost on a mountainside. I truly hope they survive as much as I truly hope people will know the difference between lucking out and decision making. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #30115 January 26, 2012 QuoteI am also concerned about the hikers on Rainier. The Mountain has taken many lives in the past. Some advice for going up there, slanted toward the 21st century: Take a cell phone and one of those emergency hand-crank radios that can charge your phone. The Red Cross (Eton) makes a good one, complete with siren, Weather Band, LED flashlight and strobe. I HIGHLY recommend it. Anyone who goes up there without a couple of Space Blankets handy should re-examine their load. I carry three or four. They're cheap. They work. A CB radio is old-fashioned, but at night it will ALWAYS be picked up by someone anywhere in Western Washington if you are on The Mountain. Trust me on this. When the cells don't get a signal, your handheld CB WILL. GPS!!!! Not through the cell signal, but from the satellite. This way you can get on your CB and tell people where you are. The usual other stuff. Something to make fire. Extra socks and thermals in a plastic bag...I could go on. I've been stuck on Rainier a couple of times. Having to get up and do a nature duty saved me. Didn't have some of those things that time, or the OTHER time in the Cascades when I was stranded for more than a month in winter conditions. And let's not even discuss how I was washed out into the Pacific for a few days. That was REAL fun. Okay, not really. You learn from these things as long as they don't kill you. On a sadder note, hope is fading for those folks on Rainier. Damn, I hope they survive somehow. If you can make shelter and hang on, you can survive for a long time without food. I was thinking the only way they could be alive is in a snow cave and trying to wait for rescue. If they are alive, then one or more of them may try to walk out at some point. However, there is a big difference between being caught in an avalanche or being lost, or caught in a storm. If they were NOT caught in an avalanche, they may have sought shelter. The weather is due to break soon. They either found shelter, or they are likely dead. That's just an opinion. I hope they are alive somehow. If you search out the latest articles, some of them are more hopeful. In one I read tonight, a Ranger Lofgren, an LEO ranger on Rainier, said this earlier today: Quote"By far and away, no one has given up hope," Lofgren said, noting that climbing parties have waited out storms for days or weeks. Thanks for coming to Dropzone to share your knowledge and experience, with the small select population here! Its like having Jack Lalanne Power Juicer come to school, to show us his muscles. Now every boy wants muscles, and some of the girls want muscles of their own! It's a nobel work you do in behalf of Humanity, all from Adventure Books, in Seattle of course. Do you give courses for the FBI, the government, and the military? Courses for grandmothers and women's club? Is 377 going to take your course? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 50 #30116 January 26, 2012 QuoteSo, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Georger, it is time for you to grow up. You are certainly not in a position to call other people names. Blevins has got you pegged. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hangdiver 1 #30117 January 26, 2012 Thank you for the entertainment... I'm working on raspberrymoon's and my trip deep into Cooper country complete with pics and maps. I'm still in the process of moving...It's been quite a challenge with my torn up knee... I have more shit than a man with intestinal flu......I'm glad to hear Sluggo's healing...keep the stress level down Sluggo...stay away from DZ while you heal...I guess he's already figured that out... hangdiver "Mans got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #30118 January 26, 2012 Bruce, I can imagine that someone unaccustomed to "fierce weather" might be really impressed by a minute of wind and rain, especially at night. I think that's about the extent of basis in the weather itself. But, there's plenty of other potential basis. There is the Cooper case "flame" for moths. The anecdotes are not from a random sample. People who come forward on their own may have different motives for doing so. If you surveyed a lot of people who were in the area that night, how would they all describe the weather? There is faulty 40-year-old memory that has been bombarded for the entire 40 years with accounts about the "terrible storm." What in a memory is what actually happened vs. what the person thinks happened because they've heard it for years? There is perception. People have different ideas about what "bad" weather is. How many of the "many" accounts were documented by the observers on that night or even the next morning? Was there even one that had specific description of the weather? Bottom line is we have documented 8pm and 9pm reports from trained weather observers and automated stations scattered around. On the other hand are 40-year-old memories (or fabrications) of people who were scattered around at different places. The overall weather was not of a nature that should have large differences from one place to another. Quote So, what conditions could have existed on skyjack night that would have provided the basis for the many anecdotal acounts of fierce weather - Louie, Dona, the gal from the symposium, and Capt Bohan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #30119 January 26, 2012 In two recent posts I separately mentioned: (1)the thumb-shaped 1016 isobar that was a few miles east of Portland at 4am on hijack day, and (2)that a calm apparently beset Portland from 4pm to 7pm before flight 305 came by. There is a relationship between such isobar shapes and "light and variable" winds. I've attached a copy of that "thumb" marked up to show how surface winds would be along the positions on the inside of that isobar. Note how the wind direction varies radically all along the isobar position. At positions inside the thumb, the pressure gradient would be very, very low. This is because, no matter which way an air molecule would look, it would see almost the same pressure out ahead of it. Because the gradient is low, the wind speed would be low. If you could quickly travel along the isobar, you would see a low wind that would change direction all along the route. If you quickly went across the thumb, you would see the wind drop to near zero speed then come back in almost the opposite direction. You'd see the same if you were still and such an isobar "thumb" passed your position. An isolated "pocket" (closed boundary) low or high would produce basically the same result. In fact, such an isolated pocket very likely existed inside that 1016mBar thumb at 4am. It's typical. It doesn't show on the surface chart because the chart shows a pressure line only for every fourth whole millibar. It's like looking at terrain on a topo map. I don't see how this relationship can be definitely "blamed" for the 4pm-7pm calm shortly before jump time. The isobars were moving basically northward. The surface chart for 4pm on the 25th does not show any "thumb" isobar shape (or even a bump) at or north of Portland. The isobar estimate for 8pm doesn't show one near Portland. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeyerLouie 5 #30120 January 26, 2012 I've been away for a few days... maybe I missed it, but did you post Sluggo's website info? I'd like to check it out. Thanks. MeyerLouie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #30121 January 26, 2012 QuoteBruce, I can imagine that someone unaccustomed to "fierce weather" might be really impressed by a minute of wind and rain, especially at night. I think that's about the extent of basis in the weather itself. But, there's plenty of other potential basis. Is the above a caveat, or what? Almost every post you have made on this subject has included what I am taking as 'a hedge'. Are you saying you see no basis in the data for severe weather in the hijack corridor, but . . . but what? What is it you are saying, and why? Lets get that solved first before moving ahead ... My guess is, you are just trying to be thorough. And that's all this is? If there is something more involved I wish you would say so and close the window for guessing/conjecture. Only you know what your goals are here. Im just a follower in this. Well, a follower interested in the history involved. In spite of attacks against me, Im still keeping an open mind and I have strong reasons-in-fact for doing that. Anyway, that's my reasons in a nutshell. Here are a few anecdotal examples, in case this has been lost in the mix of personal agendas here - this is what was originally at stake...: _ "A meteorologist has told me that the periods between fronts in this area often produce reversal systems for a short period. I believe that is what Bohan was experiencing. And those reverses can be nasty." (researcher) _ "Bohan's fellow pilots were interviewed. He was thorough and he knew the PDX glide-slope like the back of his hand. It was his regular run. And he flew the 727 for Continental. If he was landing at PDX with strong winds from 160-66, he would have been using runway 100 coming in from the west... (another researcher) _ "But Rat did see some lights from the his position on the right, which means he could be seeing either Portland or Vancouver coming into view. That is what he said in his interviews with me ..." (researcher) _ "Rat reported icing and turbulence .... he described the flight as 'rough at times' saying he and Scott 'had their hands full through the Washington part of the flight' ..." (researcher) _ "Rataczak told me that there was some turbulence earlier in the flight..............and some icing. But as the plane neared Vancouver/Portland the clouds were broken." (researcher) _ " acquired weather data from NOAA, NWS, PDX airport, Salem, OR balloon releases...........and had experts examine all of them. Also, I inteviewed Bohan's fellow pilots and Bohan's daughter. They told me that you could take Bohan's word to the bank...............everytime. What I could not obtain were flight records into PDX from 1971. That would have helped ... " (former researcher) _ "“The weather had been so terrible—rain, fog, snow—that agents and local law enforcement could not search the flight path on foot.” (Geoffrey Gray, author of Skyjack: The Hunt for D. B. Cooper") _ "The weather the night of DB Cooper's jump was "horrible" - wet, rainy and cold, and very windy. " (Dona Elliott, proprietress of the Ariel Tavern) _ "At one point, a rain-lashed official in a trenchcoat walked up to the door of the plane. He was from the Federal Aviation Administration, but he was very wet. He requested permission to board, apparently an attempt to reason with the skyjacker. " (FBI agent interview & published statement) _ "... we had two flights come in that day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon around 4:00pm. The one in the AM encountered rain and a little turbulence but the one at 4:00pm radioed and said \ he was in severe turbulence and hard rain, he almost turned around and went back, but he came in and landed. He was very glad to be on the ground and his face said it all .... that was at 4:00 oclock. I dont remember any more storm that day and I finally went home about midnight, but we did listen to some of the hijacking chatter that evening" (small airport manager in the corridor) _ “the hijacking occurred two days before the heavy clouds cleared enough to permit a helicopter search of the lava foothills and farmlands.” Despite their efforts, searchers found nothing “and heavy snows soon sealed the woods off.” (The June 16, 1972, issue of Life magazine) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #30122 January 26, 2012 Quote Quote So, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Georger, it is time for you to grow up. You are certainly not in a position to call other people names. Blevins has got you pegged. Or the reverse. Why is it your problem, Nicholson? What's your personal investment in Blevins' petards, and why ? You loaned him money or something? How global is this? Does it involve my cows ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #30123 January 26, 2012 Quote Quote Quote So, you can pull in your spurs and stop being a prick! Spare the horse ____________________. You might need a ride some day - Georger, it is time for you to grow up. You are certainly not in a position to call other people names. Blevins has got you pegged. Or the reverse. Why is it your problem, Nicholson? What's your personal investment in Blevins' petards, and why ? You loaned him money or something? How global is this? Does it involve my cows ? How does all this dribble contribute to the thread? 2/3's of the posts here are juvenile sniping between the usual suspects...if yall can't say sumptin' nice why bother wasting bandwidth? BTW...did I mention you look great today, did you lose weight? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #30124 January 27, 2012 Here are a few anecdotal examples, in case this has been lost in the mix of personal agendas here - this is what was originally at stake...: _ "A meteorologist has told me that the periods between fronts in this area often produce reversal systems for a short period. I believe that is what Bohan was experiencing. And those reverses can be nasty." (researcher) _ "Bohan's fellow pilots were interviewed. He was thorough and he knew the PDX glide-slope like the back of his hand. It was his regular run. And he flew the 727 for Continental. If he was landing at PDX with strong winds from 160-66, he would have been using runway 100 coming in from the west... (another researcher) _ "But Rat did see some lights from the his position on the right, which means he could be seeing either Portland or Vancouver coming into view. That is what he said in his interviews with me ..." (researcher) _ "Rat reported icing and turbulence .... he described the flight as 'rough at times' saying he and Scott 'had their hands full through the Washington part of the flight' ..." (researcher) _ "Rataczak told me that there was some turbulence earlier in the flight..............and some icing. But as the plane neared Vancouver/Portland the clouds were broken." (researcher) _ " acquired weather data from NOAA, NWS, PDX airport, Salem, OR balloon releases...........and had experts examine all of them. Also, I inteviewed Bohan's fellow pilots and Bohan's daughter. They told me that you could take Bohan's word to the bank...............everytime. What I could not obtain were flight records into PDX from 1971. That would have helped ... " (former researcher) _ "“The weather had been so terrible—rain, fog, snow—that agents and local law enforcement could not search the flight path on foot.” (Geoffrey Gray, author of Skyjack: The Hunt for D. B. Cooper") _ "The weather the night of DB Cooper's jump was "horrible" - wet, rainy and cold, and very windy. " (Dona Elliott, proprietress of the Ariel Tavern) _ "At one point, a rain-lashed official in a trenchcoat walked up to the door of the plane. He was from the Federal Aviation Administration, but he was very wet. He requested permission to board, apparently an attempt to reason with the skyjacker. " (FBI agent interview & published statement) _ "... we had two flights come in that day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon around 4:00pm. The one in the AM encountered rain and a little turbulence but the one at 4:00pm radioed and said \ he was in severe turbulence and hard rain, he almost turned around and went back, but he came in and landed. He was very glad to be on the ground and his face said it all .... that was at 4:00 oclock. I dont remember any more storm that day and I finally went home about midnight, but we did listen to some of the hijacking chatter that evening" (small airport manager in the corridor) _ “the hijacking occurred two days before the heavy clouds cleared enough to permit a helicopter search of the lava foothills and farmlands.” Despite their efforts, searchers found nothing “and heavy snows soon sealed the woods off.” (The June 16, 1972, issue of Life magazine) Quote I love this. Thanks, G. So, what do we have going in the skies over SW WA on 11.24.71? Really weird weather? Anomalies that sneak past the usual meteorlogical record keeping? Blips in perceptions? Actual proof of the Many Worlds Theory of Physical Reality? Other poorly understood fluctuations in the Quantum Flux or just regional effects of stuff from the boys at MKULTRA? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #30125 January 27, 2012 Washougal River: Inside of the Washougal loop I call it. Duane talked about a Fire House or Station, Gates, a restaurant or bar the guys hung-out at, a logging camp over on the Washougal, a log cabin where he did some work on the river (there was a log fence around it). He mentioned at one point a bridge no longer there - not far from the Cabin (I thought he meant crossing the Washougal at that point) yet Jerry Thomas said no such thing existed. When we returned from the inside of the loop we went up SR 140 along the Washougal River. Again he mentions the log cabin and a point a bridge used to be. He is carried away and on the upper end of the loop he pulls into an area where we turned around. He made mention of cave or mines futher on around the loop (my memory will not let me recall the details I used to - so you will have to depend on past posts and other writings I have done in reference to this). After we turned around this point and Duane mentioned knowing someone who used to live a certain area - pointing toward what I thought were cabins or double-wide - I could see 3 I know. JT said they never existed, but others say yes.. At any rate we go back the way we came and turned on the road he had missed. This was Coffey Rd., but according to the map it reads SE. 17th . Duane pointed off to our Left a Cemetery - he did NOT give me the name of it, just said it could not be seen from the road (sure enough it was on the maps I acquired). Odd Duane pointed out cemeteries. Now that I have maps I can give names and numbers - so anyone could follow our route in 1979, if they so chose to do so. You will find my early posting and claims match the maps - maps I did NOT have in 1996 when I first related all of this crap to Himmelsbach and to Jerry. We ended up on what was the old 500, but on that route he told me about Camp Bonneville, Little Baldy (which he called Bald Mt), He mentioned a small town near by called Ireland, but I can't see the map very well tonight and it is very small. (he mentioned knowing someone in this small community). Why did the FBI NOT check this out if Himmelsbach relayed what I told him? If not perhaps someone else needs to investigate Weber's presence or knowledge of the area (by whatever name he may have used). This is when he told me about a high fence and I am sure this is the area in which he mentions 2 boys - escaping (this made me think Bonneville was a prison of sorts). One escape and one was caught - no time frame. He mentions a creek and the power lines. He mentioned some more about the Camp - a gravel pit and CampKill Pack. Again he mentions the "guys". We turn and go due North, but I do not know which road - it was wooded in 1979 and a lot of that area has changed and my money and time was limited. He did mention Larch Mtn during this time frame and in 2010 I did learn we passed near the road that would have gone there, but we were approaching the area from the NO. so that was confusing. It all started to look alike. I have tried to explain before, but no one cares but me. I do now know he took me much further NORTH than I had thought. When he told me if we continue on this road we would go to Battle Ground Lake and a gravel pit we were headed back. Now,I realize we had gone much futher north and were actually headed South. No one including myself could ever figure out when he was talking about Farguer Lake and the airstrip. I just know we made a loop. I can no longer read maps - the print is getting finer and lighter everyday. I am tired. It all makes sense to me - but then I am crazy and delusional and off my rocker. I do know we were much further North than I thought when he took me to an area where the tower used to be and the logging road - which was evident by the lower trees that went to railroad track. This was near Heisson, but I did not know that until 2010 on the trip that cost me 5K. Time and space - my memories did NOT account for. They had been condensed to seem closer together so my mind could catalogue them in my memory banks. None of this is important to anyone, but me. I hate I won't be around for the day when someone finally admits Duane Weber's background in the area. I wish I could go back in time, but it gets further and further away with each passing day. Sorry I can't go on. I have done all I can do and I am so tired. It is so senseless to continue to try to convince anyone WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. Strange those words turned out to be the sub-title of Max's book. Maybe things will get better, but the more time that passes the less likely anyone will care. I am forgetting things now and each day and each post becomes a struggle.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
