DB Cooper

[Hominid 0]

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Presumably, Bohan would not have taken off prior to about 7:40 PM PST.

Is that based on the "4 minutes behind"?

And the 7pm was just a guess based on what info I could find in the transcripts about when the airport closure ended. It could easily have taken another half hour for that closure to have actually been lifted.

[Hominid 0]

I have seen none. Is this about your post I replied to? If so, I don't see the link.

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If the possibility of extreme weather suddenly surfaced, it would have been transmitted through all available means including sequence reports, voice messages on the VORTAC navigation system, and probably controller to pilot communications on the ATC system. Is there any evidence that this was done?

[Farflung 0]

So the story begins to weave and weave and weave. If it was me, I would say my flight was delayed hours until launch at XX hours. That’s using an un-fortified version based upon my actions and nothing more. The window for Bohan’s flight has become very narrow indeed as any person who can use an E6B and read a map can tell you. Other individuals are taking bites out of their seat cushions right about now.

The old time and distance equation rules the roost here. First is the distance between Seattle and Portland which is 105 or 102 nautical miles to Battle Ground VORTAC (nee Portland) depending on which Victor airway was utilized.

Flight 305 was hanging around 170 to 185 knots indicated or 2.5 to 3 miles per minute. This is confirmed by the transcripts but if adding or subtracting 10 knots makes you feel better, go ahead. Either way you are looking at 35 minutes (plus or minus 2) for Flight 305 to arrive overhead Battle Ground VORTAC. With a launch of 7:36 you would (on average) be over Battle Ground at 8:11 PM (local). Any later and the Bohan experience becomes moot since he landed in Portland. So the absolute window of opportunity is 35 minutes. Absolute that is.

The cruise speed for a 727 with the gear and flaps retracted is somewhat more than 180 knots. Somewhat more than double that speed which cuts the total time to cover the same distance by some percentage less than 35 minutes. The takeoff and climb out for both aircraft should have been similar but cruise would have compressed time for Bohan’s flight. Narrowed more by the fact that Bohan states he was 4 minutes in trail of Flight 305.

Now for ground ops and other boring crap. Planes are in fact spaced for takeoff and landing lest airports appear like the entrance to a WalMart having a sale on those singing rubber bass or NASCAR mou-mous. The skies could fill with aircraft every 2 minutes and at various altitudes with the ability to overtake Flight 305 and experience the same weather phenomenon. There must be ample information on this subject as well.

So where, oh where is this heading? Let’s break it down. The climb out performance would be the same for these aircraft so that is cancelled out of the equation. The cruise speed for Bohan would be over double, so that would cut in half the time in that configuration (7 min climb leaves 28 for cruise or a delta of at least 14 minutes).

Bohan stated he was 4 minutes in trail and would have been held at least 2 minutes after 305’s launch for a total of 6 minutes. Adding the enhanced performance in cruise of 14 minutes totals 20 minutes which are relatively fixed (Bohan would have to take off at least 20 minutes after 305 for his story to jibe). For a journey with a total of 35 minutes, this leaves a 15 minute window of opportunity for Bohan’s plane to takeoff with the most liberal of assumptions. Have I missed anything?

[Farflung 0]

As a proud graduate of the Bernie Madoff Correspondence School of Accounting, I realized I ‘double counted’ 2 minutes in the above tome.

If Bohan was delayed 2 minutes and was flying at more than double the velocity of Flight 305, then he could have ‘made up’ that portion of the flight profile.

So the window has widened to 17 minutes versus my clumsy previous solution of 15 minutes. I hope the revisionists can understand my revision and accept this mea culpa.

[Robert99 50]

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Presumably, Bohan would not have taken off prior to about 7:40 PM PST.

Is that based on the "4 minutes behind"?

And the 7pm was just a guess based on what info I could find in the transcripts about when the airport closure ended. It could easily have taken another half hour for that closure to have actually been lifted.

Yes. My understanding is that Bohan left Seattle four minutes after the hijacked airliner.

Bohan could take the V-23 East airway, with its higher terrain clearance altitude (which the hijacked airliner could have had problems with), direct to the then PDX VORTAC and save about three miles total distance over the NWA flight on V-23.

Otherwise, I don't understand what Bohan means by "four minutes behind".

Perhaps Mrs. Bohan will provide some information to Bruce Smith that will help clarify this.

[Robert99 50]

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I have seen none. Is this about your post I replied to? If so, I don't see the link.

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If the possibility of extreme weather suddenly surfaced, it would have been transmitted through all available means including sequence reports, voice messages on the VORTAC navigation system, and probably controller to pilot communications on the ATC system. Is there any evidence that this was done?

I may have misunderstood what you were saying. Are you talking about systems to determine the turbulence, and things such as wind shear, in the immediate vicinity of airports?

I was refering to the enroute phase of flight and how information would be transmitted to those aircraft. Also, I failed to mention that each airliner's onboard weather radar would show rainfall to one degree or another and that may, or may not, indicate turbulence. It depends on the pilots skill at understanding what they see on the radar and taking appropriate actions to avoid severe weather if such actions are believed to be necessary.

[Hominid 0]

I don't know about the speed. Seems he'd barely get up to some altitude before starting back down. I think the speed-altitude-time relationship would be about the same as 305 had on the way up to Seattle. They took about 28 minutes to get up to Lofall a bit N. of Seattle with a bit of tailwind. So the mystery flight should have been able to get down to PDX in about 30 minutes with a bit of headwind? Flt 305 passed there about 8:17. Subtract 30 min. gives Seattle takeoff about 7:47, where 305 took off at 7:36. Something like 11 minutes after 305 took off. Seems plausible to me even if the winds had a greater impact.

[Hominid 0]

I think that's part of the ambiguity. I think the statement could have been about when the two flights got to Portland, or anywhere between Seattle and Portland.

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Otherwise, I don't understand what Bohan means by "four minutes behind".

[Hominid 0]

The crux of it was that NWA had already arranged with the weather bureau by '71 to get data directly from some kind(s) of weather stations rather than waiting for it to be processed by the bureau. This means they had access to some kind of weather bureau info before the bureau put it out using their normal process.

Soderlind said in an interview that this was the key feature of NWAs system and that it allowed them to broadcast warning info significantly earlier so their liners were able to avoid bad weather areas better than other airlines. I think it was about an hour he said they gained.

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I may have misunderstood what you were saying. Are you talking about systems to determine the turbulence, and things such as wind shear, in the immediate vicinity of airports?

[Farflung 0]

Hominid inexplicably opined:

“I don't know about the speed. Seems he'd barely get up to some altitude before starting back down. I think the speed-altitude-time relationship would be about the same as 305 had on the way up to Seattle. They took about 28 minutes to get up to Lofall a bit N. of Seattle….”

You realize that LOFALL is….. 29 nautical miles NW of SEATAC? That is a 28% greater distance than the 105 miles from Seattle VORTAC (Seattle Airport Rwy 16L) south to Battle Mountain VORTAC where Bohan’s and Flight 305’s similarities end? It appears to be a great mystery for some odd reason. I get the sense (code for it is totally obvious) some folks don’t know a SID from an Approach Plate.

How could a route which is 29 miles longer over a denominator of 105 possibly approach the same time? Landing on Runway 16 versus taking off from Runway 16 (which they did) where you are pointed within 20 degrees of desired departure heading at brake release? These profiles are the same??? Bzzzzztttt…. Next contestant, sign in please.

[Robert99 50]

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The crux of it was that NWA had already arranged with the weather bureau by '71 to get data directly from some kind(s) of weather stations rather than waiting for it to be processed by the bureau. This means they had access to some kind of weather bureau info before the bureau put it out using their normal process.

Soderlind said in an interview that this was the key feature of NWAs system and that it allowed them to broadcast warning info significantly earlier so their liners were able to avoid bad weather areas better than other airlines. I think it was about an hour he said they gained.

Quote

I may have misunderstood what you were saying. Are you talking about systems to determine the turbulence, and things such as wind shear, in the immediate vicinity of airports?

The flight crew looking out the window (especially during daylight hours) plus their weather radar (good both day and night) have the very latest weather information on just about everything except clear air turbulence. And it is very unlikely that there was any clear air turbulence in the Seattle and Portland areas that evening at the altitudes of interest here.

In my personal opinion, it is unlikely that NWA could have such an advantage over what the National Weather Service was passing to other aircraft.

[Hominid 0]

I checked and it was weather radar info that NWA fast-tracked. Aircraft weather radar wasn't as good as it is now. Part of the advantage was being able to go way around weather and plan for it early.
Here's that interview.

Back to what I think was your original question: Did NWA have any weather info other than what came from FAA and NWS? I tried to explain that NWA at that time was already getting weather info of some kind directly from stations that fed that info to the weather bureau. The significance is that NWA got at least some wx info that was not a standard weather bureau product. I find that the wx info they are known to have acquired this way was radar info.

[Hominid 0]

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These profiles are the same???

no. you should know that.

[georger 244]

I can't imagine that the airport would have been shut down much (if any) before 305 landed,

The closure

IF
T H E R E
W A S
O N E!

occured during the refueling period with passengers
wandering around out on the tarmak.

Followjng passages apply (PI Transcript
TRANSCRIPT T7: Reel #4 T7 TIME PERIOD 5:59 –
6:59 PM PST overlaps with section of T1.)

CG: We’re closing this thing out so this thing
is 3500 feet of runway. South 35 is
Closed.
GC: If we can get the people out of there well
then we wouldn’t have to worry about
Them.


GC: Bill, would you feel better with these
passengers on the other side of 16, on the
other side of the runway?
Al: Well I just saw a bus come out so wait a
minute –
GC: No, we haven’t ordered a bus across yet,
Bill. I can get one out there though. Its
waiting on Al Lee and he has to tell us. They are
there waiting. I can see them.
GC: Right away ground. 305 we’ve closed
south 3500 feet of the other runway. Can
you tell those people to walk across the runway?
We’ve got airplanes clear of it.
They wont be using that south end.

Al: I have the gas tank here and the driver
is not certain of the direction. He will
require an escort at least part of the way is that
possible? Over. OK. Part of the
way. You can take him on the north-south taxiway
down to the taxiway and then
head him straight for the Airplane and it’s a straight
shot over there and he can
go straight out and you can drop him there.
GC: Ok 10-4.


P: And tell him to watch out for the
passengers. They’re walking across there
Now in the dark.
GC: 10-4
P: 305. Did you count the fuel trucks on the
way?
P: Are you there Al?



GC: Greyhound this is Alpha 3. I have a bus
here and we’re going to take it over right
next to 16 left and they can board there.
GC: Alpha 3, and they are all there on the
left side os the runway, or the east side …. ?

GC: Alpha 3, we have closed the airport now.
You can advise when you get all the passengers
Clear and then we’ll start running a little more traffic.
GC: Alpha 3, roger.
GC: And 305 the fuel truck is on its way now,
coming up to you.
P: ok


"GC: Alpha 3, we have closed the airport now."

! People here used to read the transcript!


I think TIME PERIOD 5:59 – 6:59 includes the time
slot 6:10 .... but I did not complete Kinderfarm!

[georger 244]

Cooper-related: Don't take this as God's truth, but didn't SeaTac restrict/shut down flights for a while during the time of the hijacking? Thought I heard something about this, but I wouldn't swear to it.

[georger 244]

If the possibility of extreme weather suddenly surfaced, it would have been transmitted through all available means including sequence reports, voice messages on the VORTAC navigation system, and probably controller to pilot communications on the ATC system. Is there any evidence that this was done?

Maybe.

Possibility vs factability.

Bohan reported it 'as it happened'.
He presumably "filed a report".

Obviously "the system" had no "possible warning".

Let the Great Flung find the report? Should be easy
for him! (instead of all the dancing around)

[georger 244]

Quote

So the story begins to weave and weave and weave. If it was me, I would say my flight was delayed hours until launch at XX hours. That’s using an un-fortified version based upon my actions and nothing more. The window for Bohan’s flight has become very narrow indeed as any person who can use an E6B and read a map can tell you. Other individuals are taking bites out of their seat cushions right about now.

The old time and distance equation rules the roost here. First is the distance between Seattle and Portland which is 105 or 102 nautical miles to Battle Ground VORTAC (nee Portland) depending on which Victor airway was utilized.

Flight 305 was hanging around 170 to 185 knots indicated or 2.5 to 3 miles per minute. This is confirmed by the transcripts but if adding or subtracting 10 knots makes you feel better, go ahead. Either way you are looking at 35 minutes (plus or minus 2) for Flight 305 to arrive overhead Battle Ground VORTAC. With a launch of 7:36 you would (on average) be over Battle Ground at 8:11 PM (local). Any later and the Bohan experience becomes moot since he landed in Portland. So the absolute window of opportunity is 35 minutes. Absolute that is.

The cruise speed for a 727 with the gear and flaps retracted is somewhat more than 180 knots. Somewhat more than double that speed which cuts the total time to cover the same distance by some percentage less than 35 minutes. The takeoff and climb out for both aircraft should have been similar but cruise would have compressed time for Bohan’s flight. Narrowed more by the fact that Bohan states he was 4 minutes in trail of Flight 305.

Now for ground ops and other boring crap. Planes are in fact spaced for takeoff and landing lest airports appear like the entrance to a WalMart having a sale on those singing rubber bass or NASCAR mou-mous. The skies could fill with aircraft every 2 minutes and at various altitudes with the ability to overtake Flight 305 and experience the same weather phenomenon. There must be ample information on this subject as well.

So where, oh where is this heading? Let’s break it down. The climb out performance would be the same for these aircraft so that is cancelled out of the equation. The cruise speed for Bohan would be over double, so that would cut in half the time in that configuration (7 min climb leaves 28 for cruise or a delta of at least 14 minutes).

Bohan stated he was 4 minutes in trail and would have been held at least 2 minutes after 305’s launch for a total of 6 minutes. Adding the enhanced performance in cruise of 14 minutes totals 20 minutes which are relatively fixed (Bohan would have to take off at least 20 minutes after 305 for his story to jibe). For a journey with a total of 35 minutes, this leaves a 15 minute window of opportunity for Bohan’s plane to takeoff with the most liberal of assumptions. Have I missed anything?

so, conclusion: Bohan never existed.

Just anbohter Himmelsbach lie -

[Hominid 0]

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People here used to read the transcript!

You mean the one discussed in the rest of the post you replied to? As follows:

The transcript has about 19.5 pages about [edit: the first taped hour of] communications between flight 305 and ground control. All the fiasco about refuelling and getting the passengers away from the plane. About a quarter of the way through is the first reference to any closure. It was that the south 3500' (apx 20 percent) of the "other" 16 was closed.

Another quarter of the way through the transcript there was more definite about closure. "The airport's closed at this time." Then, "305 the airport's closed and we have planes holding and we need to get a few off." Ground control wanted "to put an unlighted vehicle on each side of one six left" to make sure the runway was kept clear. There must have been a bit of backup.

Shortly then, probably "Al" Lee said "I'm standing here now looking straight across towards our hangar and Alaska's. They're pumping out here right now."

[Farflung 0]

Gosh oh golly, georger went from saying ‘great job’ and ‘coo coo key choo’ to everyone, to being mean and un-joyful for some reason. Why goerger ….. (sob, sniff)… wha… wha….. why?

Here’s my guess. There is some ‘common sense’ data that had disrupted georger’s theory of winds gone wild over Portland. What else could it be? And why go mental over the stuff? Can’t blame PMS, or can you?

He keeps doing CPR on this maggot riddled corpse, which is Bohan’s single report of crazy winds. The FAA and NOAA reports mean nothing along with the dozens of other aircraft in the area at the time. But if anyone (I mean anyone) ever claims that the weather was bad on 24 Nov 1971, georger has found a new best friend forever, until they are outed as rouges in an assisted living facility, who escaped Tuesday night tapioca long enough to create a DropZone account and make a posting. True story.

Will georger ever admit this or come clean? He has not done this once in all of his fumbles and deceptions in which there was direct and damning evidence which proves just what nefarious depths he is willing to sink in order to advance some corroded agenda. Sad really. Oh well.

Bohan existed georger, don’t be silly. It’s parts of his story (like so many of yours) which may not or did not exist outside that self important hat holder. Hope this supplies a moment of clarity for you and others.

[Farflung 0]

Why wasn’t the ‘discovery’ of a Continental Airlines time table from 31 Oct 1971, a good job georger?

You are always looking for the truth and documented…. ummm…. documents and the time table is dropped at your cyber feet to behold. Praise be the internet! But noooooooooooo………..

You get a monster load of tude and act all, of course the airport was closed at 5:59, and that should trap the 6:10 departures. Weird, really weird and freaky that a time table would cause such a reaction from a ‘self proclaimed’ genius and smarty, McSmart, Smart. I would have assumed that you would be delighted at the very sight of such an artifact which may have even cause you to be engorged, which as you know would be a welcome experience after the last few decades.

You bought the ticket, now enjoy the ride. I did not fabricate or counterfeit that time table did I? Do you have proof or evidence otherwise? I will face your data like a man and answer all queries like a manly, man who is hunky and cool; instead of a sniveling, pusillanimous Walter Mitty who sits to pee.

So ask away about the source of my data which I already supplied a URL for any and all to review. I am genuine in the questions I ask and the information I seek. Ask me georger what confused or frightened you about the Continental Airlines schedule which I gleaned from cyberspace that caused you to lose control of your bowels before lowering your pants. I’m man enough to answer and not be evasive or run silent.

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

People here used to read the transcript!

You mean the one discussed in the rest of the post you replied to? As follows:

The transcript has about 19.5 pages about [edit: the first taped hour of] communications between flight 305 and ground control. All the fiasco about refuelling and getting the passengers away from the plane. About a quarter of the way through is the first reference to any closure. It was that the south 3500' (apx 20 percent) of the "other" 16 was closed.

Another quarter of the way through the transcript there was more definite about closure. "The airport's closed at this time." Then, "305 the airport's closed and we have planes holding and we need to get a few off." Ground control wanted "to put an unlighted vehicle on each side of one six left" to make sure the runway was kept clear. There must have been a bit of backup.

Shortly then, probably "Al" Lee said "I'm standing here now looking straight across towards our hangar and Alaska's. They're pumping out here right now."

yes I posted the sections for Farflung's complaint,
not you. You refer to the same passages. Wasnt a
criticism, Just a citation -

The question was: did they close the airport?
The transcript says they closed the airport.
Sorry for the interference!
Please continue -

[georger 244]

Quote

Why wasn’t the ‘discovery’ of a Continental Airlines time table from 31 Oct 1971, a good job georger?

Damned if I know, Snowmman.

[Farflung 0]

Annnnnnnnnnnd……. The FAA weather reports say there were no stinkin 80 knot winds, so using the ‘georger approved’, ethos of consistency (like the transcripts saying the airport is closed), the winds were light and variable with forecast s aloft below 40 knots.

Bohan is therefore excluded as tangential and irrelevant, no matter the number of conversations with or data supplied by Bohan’s widow. So has georger written, so it is DONE! Yeah, riiiiiiiiiiiight.

[Farflung 0]

Why are you so 'pee pants' afraid of that silly, little flight schedule georger? So afraid that it manifests in rage and hate and venom spewed from an appendage which must serve as a surrogate for some past fantasy which was never realized. I’m just guessing here (code for- no I’m not).

Why did the timetable make you so unhappy? Did it remind you of some forgotten feeding or prepubescent birthday which was forgotten by a mother too busy with her favorite child? I can understand such a feeling, NOT relate in any way, shape or form because I like girls and people; but I can understand where you come from.

Let all your rage and hate flow across the screen georger. We can see it and have seen it for years go unabated and without recourse. You are not alone, there are many like you in federal prisons and anger management courses who are destined for federal prisons. Be yourself…… just…. be…. oh please….. never change…… can you promise us that?

[georger 244]

Quote

Annnnnnnnnnnd……. The FAA weather reports say there were no stinkin 80 knot winds, so using the ‘georger approved’, ethos of consistency (like the transcripts saying the airport is closed), the winds were light and variable with forecast s aloft below 40 knots.

Where, have I ever said any of this is true?

"georger approved’, ethos of consistency" ?

I didnt writre H's book.

Get a life!


You are soiling the wrong tree again.