skyjack71 0 #30501 February 9, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Believe it or not the Soviets actually made something that sorta fits that wacky description, a radio direction finder for spy use designed for concealment under clothing. It covered 59-150 MHz which would include OMNI navigation stations and VHF airplane communication frequencies. http://photo.qip.ru/users/otrok/4033527/?page=1 377 You can read that gobbly gook or is this a joke! No joke Jo. It's real. I was very surprised to find that such a contraption existed. 377 How feasible was this article and what would the wearer of such an appliance have felt? How difficult would it have been for a man trained in communications to make? I know and Duane's wife of the 60's knew he had more knowledge of CB's and radio and ham communication than the average person. Seems he acquired this knowledge early on and was untilized to the max in the 60's. I just remember the things he did and said. Some of general conversations are lost to time, but he talked about codes and communication and Paperleg. I touched on this before and told what little he let me into his past life.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #30502 February 9, 2012 Quote Jo, What is now known as the Battleground (BTG) VORTAC was built years before the hijacking. On the date of the hijacking (November 24, 1971) that very same VORTAC was known as the Portland (PDX) VORTAC. Some time after the hijacking, the name was changed from PDX to BTG but the location, radio frequencies, and other matters stayed the same. This is what I was talking about earlier. You guys changed something that moved the flight pattern. This is what I was referencing - the name change. I do NOT know if you guys VERIFIED exactly what the pilot was using - if his map had the old designation. Why would I have been told by the man in the cockpit they few EAST of PDX between Vancouver and Cames and then toward Gresham along I-5. Did the co-pilot NOT know where he was? Did that happen? I was told or read the co-pilot had not flew this route before - if my memory serves me correctly this was his 1st flight in that area. I do not mind being corrected on this - because I did not record the conversation and this was several yrs ago - 2003 /2004 I believe. I did log the conversation...buried and in storage. I have heard other versions of the co-pilots story told by reporters and others. Do not know that any of them actually spoke to the co-pilot. Would feel much better if on a TV program or radio program (out of the past) we could get something right out of the co-pilots mouth. Not after yrs and stress have tampered with his memory. I have been doing this for only 16 yrs and the co-pilot had to deal with it for 40 yrs as have the others. The technical stuff is way over my head, but I try.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kd5xb 1 #30503 February 9, 2012 Quote Quote Believe it or not the Soviets actually made something that sorta fits that wacky description, a radio direction finder for spy use designed for concealment under clothing. It covered 59-150 MHz which would include OMNI navigation stations and VHF airplane communication frequencies. http://photo.qip.ru/users/otrok/4033527/?page=1 377 You can read that gobbly gook or is this a joke! http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fphoto.qip.ru%2Fusers%2Fotrok%2F4033527%2F%3Fpage%3D1&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=TranslateI'm a jumper. Even though I don't always have money for jumps, and may not ever own a rig again, I'll always be a jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #30504 February 9, 2012 Jo wroteQuoteHow feasible was this article and what would the wearer of such an appliance have felt? How difficult would it have been for a man trained in communications to make? Jo this device was quite sophisticated and far far beyond the ability of Duane to make. They were made in the USSR for covert ops and were not available in tbe US until after the USSR fell apart. The output was not tactile. The user had to detect nulls using headphones or looking at a signal strength indicator. Although made for stealth, it was rather big and bulky. You might be able to conceal it under a big winter coat, but probably not under ordinary business garb. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #30505 February 9, 2012 Quote This sort of parable helps me understand what drives an individual to manipulate or fabricate data to validate a pre-selected answer. After reading about the cavalier approach to life with such permanent and painful results, what chance does anything resembling the ‘truth’ have? You don’t need any qualifications as long as you are willing to agree that the weather was gale force or greater on the night of the hijacking combined with a super secret experimental garment which used antennas to secure flares inside. Oh, and it the girdle had a toupee pocket would make for a better piece of science. I only use the parts of your post I want to address. Although not directed at me I want to state - I have NOT fabricated data nor do I want anyone to agree with me. I only asked a DUMB BLONDE question about the back brace, but I also talked about a belt Duane's wife made for him. I asked her to describe what he spoke about and she said it resembled the fanny packs of today except it had different compartments and was flat so he could wear it under his jacket for some things he had to do with his job. She also added some loops and it was made of canvas. I was never able to visualize what she described. I got the impression it was something like a modern day tool belt, but less bulky and was flat. I know she sent me a picture of Duane - the one with him in a suit standing poolside (the leaves where off the trees). She did not tell me where it was made or when. I do know that during the time that photo would had to have been made - Duane Weber was NOT full around the mid chest area. Even my daughter when she saw the photo asked me "What does he have on under that jacket?" Until much later in life he did NOT have a belly and this seems a completely different shape than his abdoment did when the kidneys started to enlarge. The picture just looks ODD compared to other pics in that same time frame. Her response to the pic was the same as mine. She did NOT meet Duane until 1977 when I did. I have pictures taken after he and I married that do NOT show a build that resembles the pic - it makes him look COMPACT. A description used by the crew. Since it is lost in time I am re-attaching it to this post. P.S. I have also attached a second pic I know was made in the same time frame - This is a very large transformation in build don't you think? Note the change in the hair - dyed. He had Gray hair even before 1970 yet the other photo dated 1970 show him with dark hair...she admitted to dyeing his hair.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #30506 February 9, 2012 Duane could have totally made an electronic vibrating girdle which resonates from signals transmitted from VOR stations which were powered by wind generators requiring at least 80 knot winds to turn the prop driven generator. There I said it. I’ve seen it, seen it many times and have all the documents needed to prove this but I don’t have time now to post them even though it is an electronic process which requires but mere seconds to complete. I’m simply too busy to do that even though it took me longer to explain why I’m too saturated with work than it would have taken to complete the task. This makes eternal sense on this thread and in every facet of day to day life. So there. Now could we get back to the supremely intelligent analysis of how Cooper jumped into 80 knot winds wearing a vibrating girdle and why this proves that Duane or whoever was Cooper? Otherwise this will continue on an oblique orbit around the subject, like incest which everyone knows exists but won’t discuss. There were 80 knot winds, blasting the skies of Portland and Duane was more than capable (hello, he used a chicken band radio folks!) of designing, manufacturing and wearing an electronically heated, vibrating, butt plug which was integrated into a girdle and was tuned to the Portland VORTAC. It has NOW become true. True I say whilst my dignity walks tall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 50 #30507 February 9, 2012 Quote Quote Jo, What is now known as the Battleground (BTG) VORTAC was built years before the hijacking. On the date of the hijacking (November 24, 1971) that very same VORTAC was known as the Portland (PDX) VORTAC. Some time after the hijacking, the name was changed from PDX to BTG but the location, radio frequencies, and other matters stayed the same. This is what I was talking about earlier. You guys changed something that moved the flight pattern. This is what I was referencing - the name change. I do NOT know if you guys VERIFIED exactly what the pilot was using - if his map had the old designation. Why would I have been told by the man in the cockpit they few EAST of PDX between Vancouver and Cames and then toward Gresham along I-5. Did the co-pilot NOT know where he was? Did that happen? I was told or read the co-pilot had not flew this route before - if my memory serves me correctly this was his 1st flight in that area. I do not mind being corrected on this - because I did not record the conversation and this was several yrs ago - 2003 /2004 I believe. I did log the conversation...buried and in storage. I have heard other versions of the co-pilots story told by reporters and others. Do not know that any of them actually spoke to the co-pilot. Would feel much better if on a TV program or radio program (out of the past) we could get something right out of the co-pilots mouth. Not after yrs and stress have tampered with his memory. I have been doing this for only 16 yrs and the co-pilot had to deal with it for 40 yrs as have the others. The technical stuff is way over my head, but I try. Jo, You are trying to make spaghetti, or whatever, out of simple radio navigation. If the Co-pilot didn't know how to navigate, then he would not have been a Co-pilot. Note that the Captain knew how to navigage and so did the Flight Engineer. The Flight Engineer had three stripes on his sleeve which meant that he was rated as a Co-pilot on some NWA aircraft even though he was actually acting as the Flight Engineer on this particular flight. There have been some changes to V-23 between Seattle and Portland in the 40 years since the hi-jacking but nothing that will explain what you are claiming. In an effort to clear up some of your confusion about the flight path, meaning essentially V-23, I will work up a post explaining some of those changes. But I am sure that you will never accept a flight path that doesn't pass on the east side of Portland. You would probably prefer a flight path that passed east of Pendleton, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #30508 February 9, 2012 Quote The Pipelines are NOT 15 miles WEST of Portland nor is any of the other information you posted of any value. I am probably the only person with the Power line and Pipe line Map of the area available as they existed in 1971 - this is in segments I taped together and highlighted the powerlines, pipeline and towers and railroads. I did not say the pipeline was west of Portland. The flight took a loop west from the pipeline to circle Portland. If you look at the map I posted this should help you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #30509 February 9, 2012 QuoteInteresting. Is the theory fitting the facts though or vise-verse? Separating facts from conjecture seems to be the problem. What came first, the chicken or the egg? What difference is there between a discussion with Ralph and a discussion with me, if the facts are identical? Seems to me that the same information from two credible sources would rule out conjecture. Ralph is basically truthful most of the time. I'm more forthcoming with Cooper info than Ralph, but at least equally honest about first hand facts. Ask Ralph. He advised to basically go home and forget it. That help you any????? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #30510 February 9, 2012 Quote .....Did the co-pilot NOT know where he was? Did that happen? I was told or read the co-pilot had not flew this route before - if my memory serves me correctly this was his 1st flight in that area. I do not mind being corrected on this - because I did not record the conversation and this was several yrs ago - 2003 /2004 I believe. I did log the conversation...buried and in storage...... He was familiar with the flight in 1968, so I think he was MORE than familiar by jumptime, considering there was ample time to study everything intensely, check out those mountain signals, triangulation references, trial runs, drop point, etc. This was a milk run, posted for Holiday choice. Any pilot could have signed up for it on the posting. Pilots wanted the holidays off, like everyone else, so it was a gimme to get that particular flight. Not a high demand item. I think Scott wanted to get home and this flight did that for him. Not the case for the co-pilot. He was heading away from home on a quiet flight with normally few passengers, timed to be a talking point in the cloakroom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #30511 February 9, 2012 Quote Georger States: QuoteNo doubt Duane had one, if not several. (diff models). Duane subscribed to Popular Mechanics and the Nano Technology Newsletter. Jo: ....I even tried to make that darn gyro watch part of this, but you guys and others assured me the gyro watch had nothing to do with this. Come on, it was decided to not even have him wear an altimeter because it would raise suspicions about the level expertise involved. No oxygen, no helmet, no jumpsuit, no dynomite, no two-way radios, no Russian hardware. Ratacyzak is a name based in Afganistan, not Russian and there is no correlation whatsoever to Russian equipment. Totally irrelevant to even consider, so don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #30512 February 9, 2012 Here's an analogy to explain the likelihood of an 80kt south wind at 14K feet in an airmass over Oregon and Washington moving eastward at 30kt. Imagine yourself in the center of a sports field (like US football field) with a whole, whole lot of other people. You're standing shoulder to shoulder with people all the way across the field. There are rows just like yours behind you and in front of you, all so close and tight that it's impossible to step forward or back unless the row there does as well. You're all packed in like sardines so you even have your shoulders pulled in tight. (Keep your hands to yourself by holding them at your chest.) The whole population on that field is walking lockstep down the field toward the east and the others on the field are really intent upon going that way. You're all going 3 knots. You are now a molecule of air and your neighbors are too. You are part of the air moving to the east over Oregon and Washington on the evening of 11/24/71. The air molecule on either side of you is your friend. You and your two friends think you're a strong wind, and you decide you want to run at 8 knots 90° to one side, toward the south. The first step you take, you find yourself in a place already occupied by air heading east. The air mob doesn't share your wish to go south. You lose the tussle. You'd be doing well just to edge a bit toward the south. This is like having a strong south wind (you) in a sea of west wind. Ain't gonna happen. The only way you could go cross-flow is if there were something like a wall out on the field to divert at least part of the flow. Or maybe a huge mob of air running onto the field from the sideline. There was nothing equivalent to that on the route from Seattle to Portland on hijack night. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #30513 February 9, 2012 QuoteHere's an analogy to explain the likelihood of an 80kt south wind at 14K feet in an airmass over Oregon and Washington moving eastward at 30kt......... There was nothing equivalent to that on the route from Seattle to Portland on hijack night. So, let's assume this to be true for purposes of discussion. Given the reports to the contrary, what obvious conclusions are possible that might be drawn, considering the sources of counter-information? Absentmindedness? A parallel World? Cover-up? Conspiracy? Cockpit involvement? Euphoria? Thor-envy? Tie the weather mis-reports to the flight path mis-reports and see if your conclusions become more suspicious. Does this help you reach any inkling of a bigger picture going on? It sure should. I'm not guessing here, I'm trying to let you see what I know. Doesn't take much to bridge the gap here. The whole project is smoke and mirrors just like the weather and the flight path, KC and all the other delightful diversions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #30514 February 9, 2012 Obvious conclusions are often wrong. Regarding the 80kt headwind there is really only one source in the public record. If he was actually told it, he probably swallowed it eagerly and repeated it because it fit the scenario he had long espoused and maybe believed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #30515 February 9, 2012 QuoteObvious conclusions are often wrong. Regarding the 80kt headwind there is really only one source in the public record. If he was actually told it, he probably swallowed it eagerly and repeated it because it fit the scenario he had long espoused and maybe believed. AMEN! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #30516 February 9, 2012 Couldnt the Bohan report just be based on a calculation error by the crew? GPS wasnt operational in 1971. They didnt have INS or Doppler Nav (which can give a direct readout of windspeed and direction when interfaced with the air data computer), so wouldnt a wind speed estimate require some sort of calculation involving airspeed, groundspeed (from DME) and some vector calcs involving indicated heading and course made good? I don't think they had a readout that gave windspeed and direction, but I could be wrong. What do the forum pilots have to say? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #30517 February 9, 2012 QuoteCouldnt the Bohan report just be based on a calculation error by the crew? GPS wasnt operational in 1971. They didnt have INS or Doppler Nav (which can give a direct readout of windspeed and direction when interfaced with the air data computer), so wouldnt a wind speed estimate require some sort of calculation involving airspeed, groundspeed (from DME) and some vector calcs involving indicated heading and course made good? I don't think they had a readout that gave windspeed and direction, but I could be wrong. What do the forum pilots have to say? 377 I would rather hear from somone versed in the tradgedies of Euripedes! Maybe you and Gray could do a symposium on this, and invite Himmels-whosit and Marla? On the other hand, why are people getting so balled up about this? Supposedly (as you already know if you read the thread), an FAA report was filed. A personal report to PDX manager (Ken Hastings) wss made. It was the worst day in Bohan's life! He had an appointment to keep - no time for dying! Crew members there were interviewed -ad nauseum. Rev. Farfluodinni intimates the flight never occurreed at all! Hominid has given a molecular opinion based on fluid dynamics. WTF more do you want? A cherry on top? WTF more can you have? World War III ? I suppose you could sell advertising! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #30518 February 10, 2012 Georger responds with expected petulance: “Rev. Farfluodinni intimates the flight never occurreed at all!” Nope georger, I asked what flight number was used since there was an extremely narrow window of possibilities (code for one) which required a number of dependant variables to fall in place to occur. It’s called validation or vetting and something that was required in my first semester of college and I’m a 2.0000021 GPA graduate of a bottom feeder, institution of higher learning. So you can imagine my shock at the resistance constantly displayed by those who continually regard themselves as intellectual, financial and chick magnet superiors to everyone else. All you have to do georger (for once) is attach a source for the 80 knot winds you have such a diamond cutting, boner for and it will be entered as evidence. Then you can reveal your brilliant solution which so clearly and desperately needs those wild ass winds which you will deny, deny, deny. Until someone bites and then they will be smart and heroic because they have ‘found’ this fact which supports your guess. Isn’t this what is being played out here? Why the deception and false cooperation? You were giving Hominid’s backside a constant ‘cat bath’ until he started to conclude that the weather was nothing neither notable nor extreme. Then you began to use your tongue (OK keyboard) for other purposes and lashed out brutally and savagely at Hominid’s analysis in spite of the sources he included. I mean, I was totally shocked that you would welcome a stranger that you hadn’t groomed with PM’s and flowery compliments that could have been interpreted as rather ‘lavender’ on your part (not). Gosh, I’m so confused. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 50 #30519 February 10, 2012 QuoteCouldnt the Bohan report just be based on a calculation error by the crew? GPS wasnt operational in 1971. They didnt have INS or Doppler Nav (which can give a direct readout of windspeed and direction when interfaced with the air data computer), so wouldnt a wind speed estimate require some sort of calculation involving airspeed, groundspeed (from DME) and some vector calcs involving indicated heading and course made good? I don't think they had a readout that gave windspeed and direction, but I could be wrong. What do the forum pilots have to say? 377 Presumably, Bohan was on V-23 East, as opposed to the V-23 that the NWA airliner was on, and tracking inbound on radial 345 to what was then the PDX VORTAC. This means that his ground track was 165 degrees magnetic. Bohan also states that the supposed 80 Knot wind was from 166 degrees (presumably magnetic) and right on his nose. No known calculation error, either simple or complicated, could result in over estimating the wind velocity at 14,000 feet by a factor of more than two and missing the wind direction by about 45 to 60 degrees. With a ground track inbound direct on the 345 radial, Bohan could read the ground speed directly from his DME. Since he said the wind was right on his nose, he would not have to bother with determining a crab, or wind correction, angle. Thus all he would have to do is calculate his true air speed and substract the ground speed from that to get the headwind speed. To calculate the true air speed, Bohan would have to use the indicated air speed, available by looking at the airspeed instrument, his altitude, available by looking at the altimeter, and the ambient outside temperature. How ever the outside temperature was measured on Bohan's aircraft, it would have to be corrected by one means or another for temperature rise. This corrected value is going to be lower than the one showing on the temperature gage. The airliner had two airspeed indicators and altimeters that operate on separate pitot-static systems and are otherwise totally independent. If the flight instruments were in error, the crew should have noticed a difference between the instruments. In addition, the crew had two independent DMEs and should have noticed any discrepancy between those instruments. Consequently, in all probability, there were no malfunctioning flight instruments or electronics on Bohan's aircraft. Airline aircraft instruments and electronics must be maintained to provide accurate readings within a rather narrow range. In addition, the outside air temperature reading would have to be vastly over estimated to make a significant difference in the computed true airspeed (over estimating the temperature would indicate a higher airspeed). Under estimating the outside air temperature would reduce the computed true airspeed. In summary, there seems to be no way that a mechanical error or calculation error could result in the wind speed and direction that Bohan reported. Maybe Mrs. Bohan will provide Bruce Smith with some information that will shed some light on Bohan's claims. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #30520 February 10, 2012 QuoteQuoteCouldnt the Bohan report just be based on a calculation error by the crew? GPS wasnt operational in 1971. They didnt have INS or Doppler Nav (which can give a direct readout of windspeed and direction when interfaced with the air data computer), so wouldnt a wind speed estimate require some sort of calculation involving airspeed, groundspeed (from DME) and some vector calcs involving indicated heading and course made good? I don't think they had a readout that gave windspeed and direction, but I could be wrong. What do the forum pilots have to say? Dumb question here (for once): Would cross winds being mis-stated cover for a crab right to a real position 15 miles west of the stated position? Ie., could the wind discrepancy cover the position shift undercover? Would that explain how the plane got West of Portland while still seeming to be East (or directly over)? Just askin'. I think maybe so. huh? Something going on here. Perhaps the Bohen report is correct and the other report was fudged? Naw, that would never happen, would it? Also seems to me that this particular plane had special new gear that the rest of the airliners had not been upgraded to yet. Kinda foggy, but I remember a discussion about new radios, extra radios, something. It was more advanced than the average goose? It could be vectored by the Pilot rather than the navigator plotting a course? A reported side wind would justify a flight crab correction while maintaining vectoring beacon signals? Naw, that would never happen. You'd have to be a damned skilled pilot to do that! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #30521 February 10, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteCouldnt the Bohan report just be based on a calculation error by the crew? GPS wasnt operational in 1971. They didnt have INS or Doppler Nav (which can give a direct readout of windspeed and direction when interfaced with the air data computer), so wouldnt a wind speed estimate require some sort of calculation involving airspeed, groundspeed (from DME) and some vector calcs involving indicated heading and course made good? I don't think they had a readout that gave windspeed and direction, but I could be wrong. What do the forum pilots have to say? Dumb question here (for once): Would cross winds being mis-stated cover for a crab right to a real position 15 miles west of the stated position? Ie., could the wind discrepancy cover the position shift undercover? Would that explain how the plane got West of Portland while still seeming to be East (or directly over)? Just askin'. I think maybe so. huh? Something going on here. Perhaps the Bohen report is correct and the other report was fudged? Naw, that would never happen, would it? Also seems to me that this particular plane had special new gear that the rest of the airliners had not been upgraded to yet. Kinda foggy, but I remember a discussion about new radios, extra radios, something. It was more advanced than the average goose? It could be vectored by the Pilot rather than the navigator plotting a course? A reported side wind would justify a flight crab correction while maintaining vectoring beacon signals? Naw, that would never happen. You'd have to be a damned skilled pilot to do that! BK, Could you restate the above in some manner so that people can understand what in the hell you are talking about? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30522 February 10, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote Couldnt the Bohan report just be based on a calculation error by the crew? GPS wasnt operational in 1971. They didnt have INS or Doppler Nav (which can give a direct readout of windspeed and direction when interfaced with the air data computer), so wouldnt a wind speed estimate require some sort of calculation involving airspeed, groundspeed (from DME) and some vector calcs involving indicated heading and course made good? I don't think they had a readout that gave windspeed and direction, but I could be wrong. What do the forum pilots have to say? Dumb question here (for once): Would cross winds being mis-stated cover for a crab right to a real position 15 miles west of the stated position? Ie., could the wind discrepancy cover the position shift undercover? Would that explain how the plane got West of Portland while still seeming to be East (or directly over)? Just askin'. I think maybe so. huh? Something going on here. Perhaps the Bohen report is correct and the other report was fudged? Naw, that would never happen, would it? Also seems to me that this particular plane had special new gear that the rest of the airliners had not been upgraded to yet. Kinda foggy, but I remember a discussion about new radios, extra radios, something. It was more advanced than the average goose? It could be vectored by the Pilot rather than the navigator plotting a course? A reported side wind would justify a flight crab correction while maintaining vectoring beacon signals? Naw, that would never happen. You'd have to be a damned skilled pilot to do that! BK, Could you restate the above in some manner so that people can understand what in the hell you are talking about? funny And Knoss is the guy with all the answers.... Could it be that the 80kt wind is an estimate by H and his ghost writer/researcher, not something Bohan ever stated directly? Was Bohan still alive when H published his book? H is supposed to be a pilot - why would he take something like this out of context without fact checking it? H was there in Portand that night. He knows firsthand what the weather was - he knows the weather he and his helo pilot encountered that first night, not just at PDX but all the way up to Woodland and back, and he says nothing special about the weather in that context in his book ... That is why I wish someone could find Bohan's alleged FAA report, if it existed. Something is wrong with this whole thing - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #30523 February 10, 2012 Quote Jo, What is now known as the Battleground (BTG) VORTAC was built years before the hijacking. On the date of the hijacking (November 24, 1971) that very same VORTAC was known as the Portland (PDX) VORTAC. Some time after the hijacking, the name was changed from PDX to BTG but the location, radio frequencies, and other matters stayed the same. [RED]I KNOW it was built before 1971! When was it built and who built it. Date started and date finished, company doing the work and any other sub contractors.[/RED] If you don't know the above information then YOU DON"t Know if Duane had anything to do with it or NOT. County & government records should have this information and you live out there!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #30524 February 10, 2012 Quote All you have to do georger (for once) is attach a source for the 80 knot winds you have such a diamond cutting, boner for and it will be entered as evidence. Then you can reveal your brilliant solution which so clearly and desperately needs those wild ass winds which you will deny, deny, deny. Until someone bites and then they will be smart and heroic because they have ‘found’ this fact which supports your guess. Isn’t this what is being played out here? Why the deception and false cooperation? You were giving Hominid’s backside a constant ‘cat bath’ until he started to conclude that the weather was nothing neither notable nor extreme. Then you began to use your tongue (OK keyboard) for other purposes and lashed out brutally and savagely at Hominid’s analysis in spite of the sources he included. I mean, I was totally shocked that you would welcome a stranger that you hadn’t groomed with PM’s and flowery compliments that could have been interpreted as rather ‘lavender’ on your part (not). Gosh, I’m so confused. Ditto on that. By the way was it not Georger who brought Homid to the thread? Just saying! Jo agreeing with Farflung? I agree with a lot Farflung says - actually he is pretty objective. We all want to know who and what Farflung is beside this guy who gets it off with Nuns.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hominid 0 #30525 February 10, 2012 QuoteH was there in Portand that night. He knows firsthand what the weather was - he knows the weather he and his helo pilot encountered that first night, not just at PDX but all the way up to Woodland and back I think he was probably there, but I would question whether he actually knew what the weather was. I think it likely that neither he nor the helo pilot had ever flown at low level through rain in the dark. H was even less likely to have ever done it in a helo. They may have been moving faster than the pilot normally would because they were trying to find 305. It was likely a different kind of experience for each of them. How would they size up the weather under unfamiliar circumstances? 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Robert99 50 #30521 February 10, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteCouldnt the Bohan report just be based on a calculation error by the crew? GPS wasnt operational in 1971. They didnt have INS or Doppler Nav (which can give a direct readout of windspeed and direction when interfaced with the air data computer), so wouldnt a wind speed estimate require some sort of calculation involving airspeed, groundspeed (from DME) and some vector calcs involving indicated heading and course made good? I don't think they had a readout that gave windspeed and direction, but I could be wrong. What do the forum pilots have to say? Dumb question here (for once): Would cross winds being mis-stated cover for a crab right to a real position 15 miles west of the stated position? Ie., could the wind discrepancy cover the position shift undercover? Would that explain how the plane got West of Portland while still seeming to be East (or directly over)? Just askin'. I think maybe so. huh? Something going on here. Perhaps the Bohen report is correct and the other report was fudged? Naw, that would never happen, would it? Also seems to me that this particular plane had special new gear that the rest of the airliners had not been upgraded to yet. Kinda foggy, but I remember a discussion about new radios, extra radios, something. It was more advanced than the average goose? It could be vectored by the Pilot rather than the navigator plotting a course? A reported side wind would justify a flight crab correction while maintaining vectoring beacon signals? Naw, that would never happen. You'd have to be a damned skilled pilot to do that! BK, Could you restate the above in some manner so that people can understand what in the hell you are talking about? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30522 February 10, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote Couldnt the Bohan report just be based on a calculation error by the crew? GPS wasnt operational in 1971. They didnt have INS or Doppler Nav (which can give a direct readout of windspeed and direction when interfaced with the air data computer), so wouldnt a wind speed estimate require some sort of calculation involving airspeed, groundspeed (from DME) and some vector calcs involving indicated heading and course made good? I don't think they had a readout that gave windspeed and direction, but I could be wrong. What do the forum pilots have to say? Dumb question here (for once): Would cross winds being mis-stated cover for a crab right to a real position 15 miles west of the stated position? Ie., could the wind discrepancy cover the position shift undercover? Would that explain how the plane got West of Portland while still seeming to be East (or directly over)? Just askin'. I think maybe so. huh? Something going on here. Perhaps the Bohen report is correct and the other report was fudged? Naw, that would never happen, would it? Also seems to me that this particular plane had special new gear that the rest of the airliners had not been upgraded to yet. Kinda foggy, but I remember a discussion about new radios, extra radios, something. It was more advanced than the average goose? It could be vectored by the Pilot rather than the navigator plotting a course? A reported side wind would justify a flight crab correction while maintaining vectoring beacon signals? Naw, that would never happen. You'd have to be a damned skilled pilot to do that! BK, Could you restate the above in some manner so that people can understand what in the hell you are talking about? funny And Knoss is the guy with all the answers.... Could it be that the 80kt wind is an estimate by H and his ghost writer/researcher, not something Bohan ever stated directly? Was Bohan still alive when H published his book? H is supposed to be a pilot - why would he take something like this out of context without fact checking it? H was there in Portand that night. He knows firsthand what the weather was - he knows the weather he and his helo pilot encountered that first night, not just at PDX but all the way up to Woodland and back, and he says nothing special about the weather in that context in his book ... That is why I wish someone could find Bohan's alleged FAA report, if it existed. Something is wrong with this whole thing - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #30523 February 10, 2012 Quote Jo, What is now known as the Battleground (BTG) VORTAC was built years before the hijacking. On the date of the hijacking (November 24, 1971) that very same VORTAC was known as the Portland (PDX) VORTAC. Some time after the hijacking, the name was changed from PDX to BTG but the location, radio frequencies, and other matters stayed the same. [RED]I KNOW it was built before 1971! When was it built and who built it. Date started and date finished, company doing the work and any other sub contractors.[/RED] If you don't know the above information then YOU DON"t Know if Duane had anything to do with it or NOT. County & government records should have this information and you live out there!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #30524 February 10, 2012 Quote All you have to do georger (for once) is attach a source for the 80 knot winds you have such a diamond cutting, boner for and it will be entered as evidence. Then you can reveal your brilliant solution which so clearly and desperately needs those wild ass winds which you will deny, deny, deny. Until someone bites and then they will be smart and heroic because they have ‘found’ this fact which supports your guess. Isn’t this what is being played out here? Why the deception and false cooperation? You were giving Hominid’s backside a constant ‘cat bath’ until he started to conclude that the weather was nothing neither notable nor extreme. Then you began to use your tongue (OK keyboard) for other purposes and lashed out brutally and savagely at Hominid’s analysis in spite of the sources he included. I mean, I was totally shocked that you would welcome a stranger that you hadn’t groomed with PM’s and flowery compliments that could have been interpreted as rather ‘lavender’ on your part (not). Gosh, I’m so confused. Ditto on that. By the way was it not Georger who brought Homid to the thread? Just saying! Jo agreeing with Farflung? I agree with a lot Farflung says - actually he is pretty objective. We all want to know who and what Farflung is beside this guy who gets it off with Nuns.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hominid 0 #30525 February 10, 2012 QuoteH was there in Portand that night. He knows firsthand what the weather was - he knows the weather he and his helo pilot encountered that first night, not just at PDX but all the way up to Woodland and back I think he was probably there, but I would question whether he actually knew what the weather was. I think it likely that neither he nor the helo pilot had ever flown at low level through rain in the dark. H was even less likely to have ever done it in a helo. They may have been moving faster than the pilot normally would because they were trying to find 305. It was likely a different kind of experience for each of them. How would they size up the weather under unfamiliar circumstances? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1216 1217 1218 1219 1220 1221 1222 1223 1224 1225 1226 Next Page 1221 of 2568 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 50 50
georger 244 #30522 February 10, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote Couldnt the Bohan report just be based on a calculation error by the crew? GPS wasnt operational in 1971. They didnt have INS or Doppler Nav (which can give a direct readout of windspeed and direction when interfaced with the air data computer), so wouldnt a wind speed estimate require some sort of calculation involving airspeed, groundspeed (from DME) and some vector calcs involving indicated heading and course made good? I don't think they had a readout that gave windspeed and direction, but I could be wrong. What do the forum pilots have to say? Dumb question here (for once): Would cross winds being mis-stated cover for a crab right to a real position 15 miles west of the stated position? Ie., could the wind discrepancy cover the position shift undercover? Would that explain how the plane got West of Portland while still seeming to be East (or directly over)? Just askin'. I think maybe so. huh? Something going on here. Perhaps the Bohen report is correct and the other report was fudged? Naw, that would never happen, would it? Also seems to me that this particular plane had special new gear that the rest of the airliners had not been upgraded to yet. Kinda foggy, but I remember a discussion about new radios, extra radios, something. It was more advanced than the average goose? It could be vectored by the Pilot rather than the navigator plotting a course? A reported side wind would justify a flight crab correction while maintaining vectoring beacon signals? Naw, that would never happen. You'd have to be a damned skilled pilot to do that! BK, Could you restate the above in some manner so that people can understand what in the hell you are talking about? funny And Knoss is the guy with all the answers.... Could it be that the 80kt wind is an estimate by H and his ghost writer/researcher, not something Bohan ever stated directly? Was Bohan still alive when H published his book? H is supposed to be a pilot - why would he take something like this out of context without fact checking it? H was there in Portand that night. He knows firsthand what the weather was - he knows the weather he and his helo pilot encountered that first night, not just at PDX but all the way up to Woodland and back, and he says nothing special about the weather in that context in his book ... That is why I wish someone could find Bohan's alleged FAA report, if it existed. Something is wrong with this whole thing - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #30523 February 10, 2012 Quote Jo, What is now known as the Battleground (BTG) VORTAC was built years before the hijacking. On the date of the hijacking (November 24, 1971) that very same VORTAC was known as the Portland (PDX) VORTAC. Some time after the hijacking, the name was changed from PDX to BTG but the location, radio frequencies, and other matters stayed the same. [RED]I KNOW it was built before 1971! When was it built and who built it. Date started and date finished, company doing the work and any other sub contractors.[/RED] If you don't know the above information then YOU DON"t Know if Duane had anything to do with it or NOT. County & government records should have this information and you live out there!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #30524 February 10, 2012 Quote All you have to do georger (for once) is attach a source for the 80 knot winds you have such a diamond cutting, boner for and it will be entered as evidence. Then you can reveal your brilliant solution which so clearly and desperately needs those wild ass winds which you will deny, deny, deny. Until someone bites and then they will be smart and heroic because they have ‘found’ this fact which supports your guess. Isn’t this what is being played out here? Why the deception and false cooperation? You were giving Hominid’s backside a constant ‘cat bath’ until he started to conclude that the weather was nothing neither notable nor extreme. Then you began to use your tongue (OK keyboard) for other purposes and lashed out brutally and savagely at Hominid’s analysis in spite of the sources he included. I mean, I was totally shocked that you would welcome a stranger that you hadn’t groomed with PM’s and flowery compliments that could have been interpreted as rather ‘lavender’ on your part (not). Gosh, I’m so confused. Ditto on that. By the way was it not Georger who brought Homid to the thread? Just saying! Jo agreeing with Farflung? I agree with a lot Farflung says - actually he is pretty objective. We all want to know who and what Farflung is beside this guy who gets it off with Nuns.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hominid 0 #30525 February 10, 2012 QuoteH was there in Portand that night. He knows firsthand what the weather was - he knows the weather he and his helo pilot encountered that first night, not just at PDX but all the way up to Woodland and back I think he was probably there, but I would question whether he actually knew what the weather was. I think it likely that neither he nor the helo pilot had ever flown at low level through rain in the dark. H was even less likely to have ever done it in a helo. They may have been moving faster than the pilot normally would because they were trying to find 305. It was likely a different kind of experience for each of them. How would they size up the weather under unfamiliar circumstances? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
