Orange1 0
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georger 247
and for some reason the cloth on the seat had been changed because the other two are much darker, perhaps the FBI took that piece of cloth?
We all know Cooper got away, got arrested with
outstanding warrants at a traffic stop in Podvulle
Arkansas, and spent a stretch in prison, never to be
connected to the Cooper hijacking because: there
was no way to connect dots in 1971-72-73-74 and
by 1980 the case was long closed and dead.
Did Cooper ever enjoy his money? Probably not.
Tina Bar seems to offer that possibility.
Slipped the surly bonds of earth and flew away on
an SSI card.
We need to be searching for Prisoner Number:
5474383353BN - 3846436538VO-ASD5958464984
in cell 18E in Franco-Mudhut.
Or, to put it in modern Stadard Oil parlance: "the
bitch got away."
Robert99 50
Several map segments, presumably of the same map, related to the hijacked airliner's flight path are posted on Sluggo's web page and attributed to the FBI. There is nothing on the maps that definitely gives their date of publication or valid dates for use in navigation.
However, the height of Mount St. Helens is shown as 9677 feet ASL which is its pre-blast height. So it is unlikely that the map was printed after late 1980 or early 1981, given the time required to get updated charts printed and circulated.
The radials from the PDX (now BTG) VORTAC and the SEA VORTAC that are used to define the Mayfield Intersection on V-23 are the same as those on the IFR Enroute Low Altitude Chart that was in effect on November 24, 1971, the day of the hijacking. So it is very likely that the "FBI map" was printed by that date or perhaps a few years earlier.
When compared to a 2009 FAA Seattle Sectional Chart, it appears that the Mayfield Intersection and the present day Malay Intersection are located at the very same geographical point. Also, the geographical positions of the PDX/BTG and SEA VORTACS appears to be the same on both the Sectional chart and the FBI map.
Now comes the strange part. On the FBI map, the direct line between the PDX/BTG VORTAC and the Mayfield Intersection passes 2.5 nautical miles abeam Toutle on the southwest side.
On the 2009 Seattle Sectional chart, the direct line between the Malay Intersection and the BTG/PDX VORTAC, what appears to be the same two points mentioned above, passes directly over Toutle.
Changes in magnetic variation is not a factor here since the two points are defined geographically in this instance. Converting from the NAD27 to the WGS84 coordinate system is also not a factor since the maximum change in the Portland area is never more than 200 meters.
Projecting the discrepancy at Toutle on to the Malay Intersection results in about a 3 nautical mile discrepancy. Looking from the Mayfield/Malay Intersection to the PDX/BTG VORTAC location indicates that at the time the FBI maps were charted, the PDX/BTG VORTAC was located about 3 nautical miles southwest of its present position.
Does anyone have any further information on this?
However, the height of Mount St. Helens is shown as 9677 feet ASL which is its pre-blast height. So it is unlikely that the map was printed after late 1980 or early 1981, given the time required to get updated charts printed and circulated.
The radials from the PDX (now BTG) VORTAC and the SEA VORTAC that are used to define the Mayfield Intersection on V-23 are the same as those on the IFR Enroute Low Altitude Chart that was in effect on November 24, 1971, the day of the hijacking. So it is very likely that the "FBI map" was printed by that date or perhaps a few years earlier.
When compared to a 2009 FAA Seattle Sectional Chart, it appears that the Mayfield Intersection and the present day Malay Intersection are located at the very same geographical point. Also, the geographical positions of the PDX/BTG and SEA VORTACS appears to be the same on both the Sectional chart and the FBI map.
Now comes the strange part. On the FBI map, the direct line between the PDX/BTG VORTAC and the Mayfield Intersection passes 2.5 nautical miles abeam Toutle on the southwest side.
On the 2009 Seattle Sectional chart, the direct line between the Malay Intersection and the BTG/PDX VORTAC, what appears to be the same two points mentioned above, passes directly over Toutle.
Changes in magnetic variation is not a factor here since the two points are defined geographically in this instance. Converting from the NAD27 to the WGS84 coordinate system is also not a factor since the maximum change in the Portland area is never more than 200 meters.
Projecting the discrepancy at Toutle on to the Malay Intersection results in about a 3 nautical mile discrepancy. Looking from the Mayfield/Malay Intersection to the PDX/BTG VORTAC location indicates that at the time the FBI maps were charted, the PDX/BTG VORTAC was located about 3 nautical miles southwest of its present position.
Does anyone have any further information on this?
Farflung 0
Given a choice between RobertMBlevins’ “understanding” of where Cooper was seated and the notes written, near real time by a person who had their mortal existence being threatened….. I’m picking the center seat of Row 18. Oh, that plus the source of the notes was referenced along with a screen shot and transcription which accompanied a thought process.
To Orange1: What difference does Cooper’s seat make?
If that simple exercise turns into a Herculean task (as it has thus far) then what expectations should be set for more germane data points?
You know like, how money would drift, float or otherwise migrate to Tena (Tina) Bar? The time distance equation with drift considerations for civil airliners? Internal indications of several hundred pounds of ‘cargo’ being jettisoned? Statistical analysis of CEPs based upon meteorological and aerodynamic interplay by a falling mass with a known deceleration device? All of which has been discussed with such amazing authority, yet the stinkin seat which Cooper occupied is an utter mystery? Am I the only one who finds this equally stunning and hilarious?
That’s what I’m taking from the seating exercise anyway. Collectively with all the ‘self proclaimed’ expertise on this thread, I would imagine that Bruce’s request should be filled within a short period of time, with some measurable accuracy. How can one be expected to finger Cooper when they can’t even pick his seat? So to speak, that is.
To Orange1: What difference does Cooper’s seat make?
If that simple exercise turns into a Herculean task (as it has thus far) then what expectations should be set for more germane data points?
You know like, how money would drift, float or otherwise migrate to Tena (Tina) Bar? The time distance equation with drift considerations for civil airliners? Internal indications of several hundred pounds of ‘cargo’ being jettisoned? Statistical analysis of CEPs based upon meteorological and aerodynamic interplay by a falling mass with a known deceleration device? All of which has been discussed with such amazing authority, yet the stinkin seat which Cooper occupied is an utter mystery? Am I the only one who finds this equally stunning and hilarious?
That’s what I’m taking from the seating exercise anyway. Collectively with all the ‘self proclaimed’ expertise on this thread, I would imagine that Bruce’s request should be filled within a short period of time, with some measurable accuracy. How can one be expected to finger Cooper when they can’t even pick his seat? So to speak, that is.
Farflung 0
Robert99,
I posted some info on the FBI sectional chart (Fear and Loathing of Sectional Charts) which ID this particular chart as the First edition of the ‘New’ (present day) format, scale and grid.
I’m sure you know that the intersections were also standardized to the five character format around that time as well (Lofall vs LOFAL, Cougar vs COUGA).
Someone thought having a Portland Airport, VORTAC, Approach and Departure being babbled over a transceiver may result in some confusion and they were correct.
As far as the intersection MALAY (nee Mayfield) which is on the 329 radial of BTG (formerly PDX) intersecting with the Astoria (AST) VOR radial of 048 in 1971 where today the same intersection name is defined by the 052 radial.
Additionally the radial flown out of Seattle (SEA) was 175 and today is 178. With MALAY 64 DME from SEA that 3 degree delta would be just over 3 nautical miles of change to the terrain-centric sectional chart. Or something like that. Whacha think Robert99?
I posted some info on the FBI sectional chart (Fear and Loathing of Sectional Charts) which ID this particular chart as the First edition of the ‘New’ (present day) format, scale and grid.
I’m sure you know that the intersections were also standardized to the five character format around that time as well (Lofall vs LOFAL, Cougar vs COUGA).
Someone thought having a Portland Airport, VORTAC, Approach and Departure being babbled over a transceiver may result in some confusion and they were correct.
As far as the intersection MALAY (nee Mayfield) which is on the 329 radial of BTG (formerly PDX) intersecting with the Astoria (AST) VOR radial of 048 in 1971 where today the same intersection name is defined by the 052 radial.
Additionally the radial flown out of Seattle (SEA) was 175 and today is 178. With MALAY 64 DME from SEA that 3 degree delta would be just over 3 nautical miles of change to the terrain-centric sectional chart. Or something like that. Whacha think Robert99?
Robert99 50
Robert99,
I posted some info on the FBI sectional chart (Fear and Loathing of Sectional Charts) which ID this particular chart as the First edition of the ‘New’ (present day) format, scale and grid.
I’m sure you know that the intersections were also standardized to the five character format around that time as well (Lofall vs LOFAL, Cougar vs COUGA).
Someone thought having a Portland Airport, VORTAC, Approach and Departure being babbled over a transceiver may result in some confusion and they were correct.
As far as the intersection MALAY (nee Mayfield) which is on the 329 radial of BTG (formerly PDX) intersecting with the Astoria (AST) VOR radial of 048 in 1971 where today the same intersection name is defined by the 052 radial.
Additionally the radial flown out of Seattle (SEA) was 175 and today is 178. With MALAY 64 DME from SEA that 3 degree delta would be just over 3 nautical miles of change to the terrain-centric sectional chart. Or something like that. Whacha think Robert99?
Farflung, Thanks for the reply but I apparently didn't make myself clear enough.
You are assuming that re-orienting the PDX/BTG VORTAC due to the normal change in magnetic variation is responsible for the error.
However, the Mayfield/Malay Intersection gives ever appearance of being the same geographical point. And assuming the geographical position of the PDX/BTG VORTAC hasn't changed in the last 40 years or so, then it also should be one point.
A straight line between these two points should have the same geographical track (that is, with respect to the grid lines). So if the 2009 line between these two points crosses directly over Toutle then the same line on the FBI map should also pass directly over Toutle. But it doesn't, it passes 2.5 nautical miles to the southwest of Toutle.
The only logical explanation seems to be that the PDX/BTG VORTAC has been moved since the FBI map was published. And it would have been moved from the southwest (which is towards Tina Bar) about 3 nautical miles to the northeast.
The present day location of the PDX/BTG VORTAC is about 8 nautical miles east-northeast of Tina Bar. Applying the above 3 nautical miles shift would indicate that it was only about 5 nautical miles from Tina Bar when the FBI map was published.
I am attempting to get the siting history for the PDX/BTG VORTAC.
But there is also now a PDX VOR/DME located on the Portland airport and it is used for the VOR Rwy 28R approach with the DME being used for step-down fixes on that approach.
Farflung 0
I had a massive dumb attack Robert99 and think I now understand what you were asking.
Buried deep in my bias, I assumed you meant the TOUTL intersection since you referenced MALAY. See how confusing those intersections used to be? Good thing I wasn’t flying…… this time.
Attached is a comparison and perhaps an answer. The left is the FBI, sectional from ’71 and to the right is one from AIRNAV today.
Point ‘a’ is a registration of the hamlet of Silver Lake to compare geolocations.
Point ‘b’ is a wicked meander in a long forgotten rail road.
Point ‘c’ is the intersection of Toutle Road and the Spirit Lake Highway which is the modern location of Toutle the unincorporated village of.
Point ‘d’ which is marked as Toutle on the FBI chart was the old rail name for the stop.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toutle,_Washington
Hit the coordinates in that wiki file and it will take you to the old USGS named place. Is this what you were looking for? It was a good one.
Buried deep in my bias, I assumed you meant the TOUTL intersection since you referenced MALAY. See how confusing those intersections used to be? Good thing I wasn’t flying…… this time.
Attached is a comparison and perhaps an answer. The left is the FBI, sectional from ’71 and to the right is one from AIRNAV today.
Point ‘a’ is a registration of the hamlet of Silver Lake to compare geolocations.
Point ‘b’ is a wicked meander in a long forgotten rail road.
Point ‘c’ is the intersection of Toutle Road and the Spirit Lake Highway which is the modern location of Toutle the unincorporated village of.
Point ‘d’ which is marked as Toutle on the FBI chart was the old rail name for the stop.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toutle,_Washington
Hit the coordinates in that wiki file and it will take you to the old USGS named place. Is this what you were looking for? It was a good one.
Farflung 0
Here’s another perspective with the historical USGS chart on the top left (1977) compared to a Google satellite image (bottom left) which still needs time to cool because it is so fresh.
One of the things that USGS chart reminds me of is how impossibly difficult some of the cartographic representations are to spot in real life (non Walter Mitty existence). That cross pick and shovel along with the rail lines were real neat to pick off of a map but at 360 knots and low level they were never to be seen. In fact I’d bet most can’t find them on the satellite image sitting very, very still.
One of the things that USGS chart reminds me of is how impossibly difficult some of the cartographic representations are to spot in real life (non Walter Mitty existence). That cross pick and shovel along with the rail lines were real neat to pick off of a map but at 360 knots and low level they were never to be seen. In fact I’d bet most can’t find them on the satellite image sitting very, very still.
mrshutter45 21
and for some reason the cloth on the seat had been changed because the other two are much darker, perhaps the FBI took that piece of cloth?
agreed, I guess the smart thing would have been to change all three and not just one if it stuck out that bad.
or it could be that the flash on the camera lit up the closer one better...take a look at the door, 1/2 of it's the color of the 'older' headrest cloths, the other part of the door is the same color as the 'new' towel."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
BobKnoss 0
......also, keep in mind that someone could of been feeding false information to Jo, that is why I checked the name and since that name popped up, he must have been pretty young in 1971.
I think Jo is finally realizing the high level of misinformation fed to her. Much of it has been apparent to some of us for a long time. The fact that so much evidence has been 'lost' or destroyed, so many fabricated 'official' stories exist, factual claims are so divergent, conclusions so unbalanced, and key people so protective of the truth, is evidence in itself of one of the most colorful cover-ups in History. It is also plain-faced evidence of a top level conspiracy before and after the fact, like the assorted FBI collective false assumptions of, A) 'He died in the jump.' B) McCoy and Cooper were one in the same. C) The BYU pin is now a tie clasp. D) The cigarettes (DNA) got 'lost' in the evidence room. E) "Janet' is not truthful. F) The true flight path is never in full display. G) The phony 'Bing Crosby' sketch. H) The comical parachute fetch. I) Nick O'Hara shot McCoy to death. J) They can't solve the riddle?? K) Knoss is another sicko. L) Weber is not the perp because of turkey gravy DNA on the tie. ETC., etc. This is Dick and Jane stuff, only lots funnier, except for Jo Weber. She has no sense of humor left.
Five: The FBI has motive to dismiss the chute. They would have to admit that Cooper made it to the ground (takes a LIVE person to bury the chute) and that the money at Tena Bar did not arrive there by natural means.
Would it really be that embarassing to the FBI to admit the jumper survived if the evidence showed it?
I wish Larry Carr was still posting on here and could respond to your post, Robert. That would be very helpful.
BobKnoss 0
.... chute is slightly off the flight path, but it's been established already that if Cooper pulled the ripcord as he jumped (likely, rather than a freefall pull) then this could be accounted for due to drift from a pull at 9.600 feet or so.....
[reply\]
All sounds reasonable as I have no contrary information, EXCEPT: He did not pull immediately, he pulled on the one-mississippi count of 10 as he was trained. So that theory/conclusion is invalid. You also need to include the 15 mile shift in real position from faking a crab to the fake winds out of the West, which might help. Real wind speed and direction should make it more clear. Lots of misinformation here over the years.
His jumping experience was civilian and was conducted at Flying Cloud Airport by Linstrom's Flight Training Service on the east side of the field in the summer of 1968. I have four witnesses who confirmed this. The log is mysteriously not available. Sound familiar?
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