airtwardo 7 #30801 February 27, 2012 And who is doing payroll? my checks seem to be getting misdirected! Quote We don't GET traceable checks Matt...just old 20's! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #30802 February 27, 2012 After several failed attempts asking and still being lost on the subject, I figured a couple pictures may help somewhat. There were only two backpack chutes according to the record but this thread makes it seem like there were dozens which were radically different in appearance. Perhaps that is true as well, I simply can’t tell. Since this tale has secretaries, taxi cabs and airline personnel all handling these parachutes, the parlance may be to blame for some of this. Cooper took an NB-6 or NB-6 style parachute from the supplied pool of two (2). So far this makes sense to even me. The first attachment has an image of an NB-6 on the left with the cryptic title of NB-6. The ‘other’ parachute has been variously described as a ‘sport’, ‘Pioneer’ or civilian parachute and was allegedly photographed by Bruce Smith last year, which is the image on the right of the first attachment (Pioneer ‘Sport’). Now perhaps a jumper can instantly spot a massive or obvious number of differences between these items but I simply don’t see it. They both appear to me (a non-expert) as aircrew emergency chutes. If Hayden did own the chutes Cooper used AND the chutes were identical (as Hayden indicated), THEN I would surmise that the chute Cooper grabbed was an NB-6 style rig and his choice was moot since there were two of the same breed to select. But for some reason this question is always answered with deflections and are so vague that I still can’t tell what happened. The second attachment illustrates the NB-6 and Pioneer chutes being modeled for use. Once again, I feel like one would have to be a supreme expert on the subject to identify any difference between the two from my experience level. Perhaps the difference between Sport and military rigs in 1971 was minimal in comparison to later equipment. The first civil emergency chute I put on was so thin and light that I was suspicious of some sort of joke being played on me. Does the source and type of parachutes Cooper used remain a mystery (like the seat he used) or are the pictures of the NB-6 and the Pioneer ‘Sport’ representative of Cooper’s chutes? Secondly, what are these major differences which are spoken about between the two in the photos? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #30803 February 27, 2012 The NB-6 could handle the high speed opening while the Pioneer would have probably failed. where does the reserve attach to the pioneer?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #30804 February 27, 2012 Quote The NB-6 could handle the high speed opening while the Pioneer would have probably failed. ??? That Pioneer 'sport' rig isn't a 'skydiving' system...there is no reserve D rings on front or side strap tie downs on it. It's a PEP, or Pilots Emergency Parachute... that's what we gravity junkies call 'em. And either container could obviously hold the exact same canopy...the same strength and opening speed parameters would apply to either container if the same parachute was inside. Does anyone knew exactly what type of Pioneer system was given that fateful day? Pioneer made several Skydiving systems ...and since reserve parachutes were included in the delivery (or so I thought-'training aid'?) I tend to think one may have been an actual sport rig and not the 'Navy' rig copy that flug posted a pic of. Edited at add: I see you caught that and made an edit ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #30805 February 27, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote It is good to say;"But what if?" or question; "Why?" but not to lie. Mat So then, we are even, because I am not a liar and you are not a crew member. What you know is not the same as what I know, but you don't ask me, you tell me, I lie. Why? That is against forum rules, Matt. You are making a false assumption based on a lack of knowledge, hence the retarded picture, which, I admit was also over the top. Consider cause and effect. I am normally considerate, but react too quickly to unsupported confrontational attacks. Try being what you suggest yourself. Let's all be pleasant. 377 is a shining example for us all, most of the time.... We can disagree without your attacks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #30806 February 27, 2012 As it stands presently there are two diametrically opposing answers (how surprising). mrshutter45 indicates that the type of canopy packed in the chutes is visible, but left no clue as how a layperson (code for me) could see this variation. A Pioneer chute may fail I suppose, but the aircraft was doing less than 200 knots and tens of thousands of aircrew bailed out of flaming, spinning and or inverted aircraft during WWII with a very high success rate and at greater velocities. Either way, I was asking about the differing points of appearance and how someone (code for Cooper) could look at the chutes in the photographs and make a determination as to function since they appear nearly identical to me (code for dork). airtwardo responds that the canopy contained within either of the rigs could be the same as there are no external signs to indicate what flavor is packed within. This makes me feel a little more secure since they appear so similar that I would have sworn they are nearly indistinguishable in appearance and function. Guess I can be less concerned about that booze filled night in Bangkok and that woman who carried me home. For a while there I was starting to worry about my visual interpretation skills. Boo-yah. Either way, the Amazing Farflungini is beginning to sense some uncertainty as to the type of parachutes delivered to Cooper. The Amazing Farflungini predicts the answer to the parachute’s precise nomenclature will remain a dark mystery, which in fact serves as the dilithium crystals which power the spaceship ‘Private Enterprise’ deeper and deeper into a void of random chaos and anti-logic. The Amazing Farflungini anxiously awaits the appearance of a ‘Green Tina’. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #30807 February 27, 2012 ok, well here is a link on canopy info, will find more that I have found, but gotta go to workI will find the link but did read somewhere that the pioneer would fail in high speed drops. http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/ "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #30808 February 27, 2012 Quote ok, well here is a link on canopy info, will find more that I have found, but gotta go to workI will find the link but did read somewhere that the pioneer would fail in high speed drops. http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/ http://huntfordbcooper.com/pioneer-v-s-nb6 This one maybe? From the article you linked it sounds like there was probably a 26' Navy conical, possibly sleeved...in the Pioneer rig. It would not have self destructed upon opening and in fact would have been a smoother/softer deployment at any speed. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #30809 February 27, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote It is good to say;"But what if?" or question; "Why?" but not to lie. Mat So then, we are even, because I am not a liar and you are not a crew member. What you know is not the same as what I know, but you don't ask me, you tell me, I lie. Why? That is against forum rules, Matt. You are making a false assumption based on a lack of knowledge, hence the retarded picture, which, I admit was also over the top. Consider cause and effect. I am normally considerate, but react too quickly to unsupported confrontational attacks. Try being what you suggest yourself. Let's all be pleasant. 377 is a shining example for us all, most of the time.... We can disagree without your attacks. Really? Out of all that, you avoid the actual issue and want to feel sad you are not trusted and believed? I rarely see you considerate of others, you're usually harsh and mean spirited, maybe this is too close to that for you and your feelings got hurt? You point out a rule infraction to me? Yet your on record of numerous? (By the way, the saying you cherry picked, never called YOU a liar, you put that shoe on) I, and many others, have asked you numerous times to PROVE your story, you won't, I believe it is because you can't. I have yet to see any "proof" your word is not "proof" it is hear say (just like my word in this case would be "hear say", as I too, was not there), or as some have stated a made up story. But, that aside: I have done some checking on your story. So far none of it adds up. So far each person who could answer the question has said : No, not a statement of fact, or that it is a bold face lie. A few even knew why I was asking and named you with out a hint of prompting. One even said the slander had better stop or I would be in court, till I read your post to them. So, before I get accused of being a Bob Knoss "lacky" again (ironic, huh?), please post actual "proof" or "evidence" as that would meet the Standards of the Courts, even circumstantial. Please remember "Hear say" has already been rules out. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #30810 February 27, 2012 Farflung's point about heads or tails on the choice of parachute makes a lot of sense. The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base and might (toss that quarter again) have assumed that any chutes would come from there. Hell that's probably the first place I would have gone if I was the one securing the chutes anyway. Regardless, he (Cooper) obviously had the power and the opportunity to direct where the chutes should come from and/or what type/model of chutes they should be -- and he didn't. I think that says a lot.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #30811 February 28, 2012 Quote Quote ok, well here is a link on canopy info, will find more that I have found, but gotta go to workI will find the link but did read somewhere that the pioneer would fail in high speed drops. http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/ http://huntfordbcooper.com/pioneer-v-s-nb6 This one maybe? From the article you linked it sounds like there was probably a 26' Navy conical, possibly sleeved...in the Pioneer rig. It would not have self destructed upon opening and in fact would have been a smoother/softer deployment at any speed. I remember Gray's article, but that's not the one, I'll find it"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30812 February 28, 2012 Over the weekend, Bruce Smith had a medical emergency and was hospitalised. Bruce has asked me to announce that he is recovering but will be absent for several days on this forum - I will share further info as I receive it. Thanks. G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #30813 February 28, 2012 Quote Over the weekend, Bruce Smith had a medical emergency and was hospitalised. Bruce has asked me to announce that he is recovering but will be absent for several days on this forum - I will share further info as I receive it. Thanks. G. I hope he makes a full recovery and looking forward to hearing from him."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30814 February 28, 2012 The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #30815 February 28, 2012 Quote The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. Georger, did Cooper mention Tacoma and McCord while landing in Seattle? if so how did he see it on the right side of the plane?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #30816 February 28, 2012 Here’s a description of the parachutes delivered to Cooper from the FBI files according to Bruce Smith’s article: “1. Civilian luxury type, tan soft cotton material outside, 26 foot while canopy inside. The parachute inside is a military parachute. The parachute has a foam pad cushion and a fray mark down the rib on the back from rubbing on metal. 2. A military backpack parachute, standard olive drab green on outside, a 28 foot white canopy on inside. He (Norman Hayden) stated that this parachute also has a foam pad cushion.” How would a skydiver take an inventory of a couple parachutes? Would it appear this vague and whuffo-ish? No manufacturer, serial numbers, model, etc. I don’t think the FBI would describe a gun as a luxury, silver handheld weapon with wooden grips. This appears to be someone doing their best with something they have never encountered before. Was the Pioneer chute more of an NB-6 clone or civilian variant which morphed and mutated over time? What is the genesis of this military, NB-6, surplus parachute? Please include your source. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30817 February 28, 2012 QuoteQuote The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. As far as I know the hijacker never mentioned McChord AFB. Nothing about it in the transcripts, etc. 'We're over Tacoma now...' is supposedly what he said to Mucklow while they were circling over the Puget Sound area. agree on the first - where in the Transcript does he say 'We're over Tacoma now...' ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #30818 February 28, 2012 here are some specs on the NB-8 http://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-10-1670-213-10.pdf http://www.butlerparachutes.com/PDF/PIApresen.pdf"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30819 February 28, 2012 QuoteQuote The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. Georger, did Cooper mention Tacoma and McCord while landing in Seattle? if so how did he see it on the right side of the plane? Frankly I dont know at the moment - my memories for these fine details is fading, frankly - and they seem to change with every new asset joining this case. If and when I get time I will try to reconnect all of these dots in light of the latest-greatest researcher to join the chase - but my enthusiasm for this is fading fast - thank Christ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BobKnoss 0 #30820 February 28, 2012 Quote The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. Yes, Cooper mentioned McCord AFB to Cap and me. He said he knew a guy there that he thought still worked on the ground crew and he was going to see if he could enlist his help. Of course, because I have said this, now it is no longer true, right? Baloney! Another Knoss FACT. Take care, Bruce! Godspeed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 50 #30821 February 28, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. As far as I know the hijacker never mentioned McChord AFB. Nothing about it in the transcripts, etc. 'We're over Tacoma now...' is supposedly what he said to Mucklow while they were circling over the Puget Sound area. agree on the first - where in the Transcript does he say 'We're over Tacoma now...' ? Why don't you check Tosaw's book? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #30822 February 28, 2012 I remember watching cartoons where some character would be working on a car and throwing parts out from under the hood, while looking for the cause of the vehicles malfunction. We would laugh at these antics because we were children and the cartoon characters were stupid. Stupid people are proof that God has a sense of humor and wanted to share the gift of laughter by creating morons. Those parts being tossed out from the car’s engine compartment may not be of any use at that moment, but may prove to be valuable later on. The fact that some of these parts are used less should not mean that their engineering or production should be of inferior quality either. Strange how people think this way. Oh, just buy the cheapest helmet……. Right because it is protecting something equally worthless. On to more Cooper-mania. I like filters for water, air and information because they help keep crap out of all three. Other people prefer to drop to their knees and drink deeply and directly from the Ebola River and that is fine too, I just won’t do it. Here is an example of a potential ‘crap filter’ and how some constituent parts may lay un-noticed and despised for some period of time. The first artifact is from the communications transcripts from 1971 where control radioed Flight 305 to “…hold on Seattle 307 radio at low fall, maintaining 6,000.” Here is where the data begins its inevitable migration to myth and lore. These are instructions for Flight 305 to go and ‘hang out’. Low fall is in fact an airway intersection called LOFALL (now LOFAL) which resides on an electronic beam transmitted by a VORTAC named Seattle (SEA). The beam which radiates from SEA is called a radial (NOT radio) and is numbered based upon which position it occupies on a magnetic compass rose. In this case 307 degrees or the 307 radial, from SEA at LOFAL. Crystal clear right? The instructions go on to give an altitude of 6,000 feet at which to hold or just under one nautical mile high. A holding pattern is a racetrack shaped, orbit which is oriented towards the navigation station and uses right turns as standard. This can be modified by ATC with extended legs or left hand turns but is not common. So Flight 305 is circling LOFALL, making right turns at 6,000 feet on 24 Nov 1971. See how simple this is without the distractions of steering, bias and manipulation? Some more of that worthless map reading. LOFALL is in fact 29 DME (kinda like miles) northwest of SeaTac and roughly over Port Ludlow, WA, as indicated on the brilliantly crafted map which is attached. Now there is some ‘Big Picture’ perspective regarding where the plane was holding (or circling) in relation to Seattle and Tacoma. As you can see, Tacoma is 43 nautical miles south of LOFALL where Flight 305 was circling at 6,000 feet. Now you can ask your own bad self; Hey, is it plausible to see the lights of Tacoma, 43 miles away, while circling at 6,000 feet? Then one could add the element of Cooper’s visual opportunity at a distance of 43 miles from the subject area by adding the attribute of his seat location in the aircraft. Or you could cry and bitch and biiiiiiitch about how Cooper’s seat has nothing to do with anything and steer the discussion towards whatever gives you the most boners. Be that as it may, I prefer more validated data when engaged in problem solving rather than less and abhor the addition of garbage and shit in the same. If someone wanted to research what factory made the fabric for the seat cushions in the plane, I couldn’t imagine a reason for protesting what they spend their time or perhaps expertise completing. But this thread is absolutely polluted with frustrated managers who prefer directing the efforts of others away from a rational and measured study, irrespective of the potential result. Weird. Isn’t is freaky how the question of Cooper seeing the lights of Tacoma while circling after the whining about maps and seats? For me, the small exchange about the location of Toutle, WA was a good exercise in completing something relatively complex where a bit of consensus was reached by several un-related individuals. It also illustrated what ‘attention to detail’ some people possess and I admire that trait/skill. It also exposed some bizarre loathing for the subject which I simply can’t understand. Here it is. From a radio on Low Fall to some claim not worth sourcing, where Cooper observed the lights of Tacoma while circling. Decide for yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #30823 February 28, 2012 Quote Over the weekend, Bruce Smith had a medical emergency and was hospitalised. Bruce has asked me to announce that he is recovering but will be absent for several days on this forum - I will share further info as I receive it. Thanks. G. Please wish him my best and to recovery fully, he need not worry about us! We will still be arguing the same points when he gets back! MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30824 February 28, 2012 Quote I remember watching cartoons where some character would be working on a car and throwing parts out from under the hood, while looking for the cause of the vehicles malfunction. We would laugh at these antics because we were children and the cartoon characters were stupid. Stupid people are proof that God has a sense of humor and wanted to share the gift of laughter by creating morons. Those parts being tossed out from the car’s engine compartment may not be of any use at that moment, but may prove to be valuable later on. The fact that some of these parts are used less should not mean that their engineering or production should be of inferior quality either. Strange how people think this way. Oh, just buy the cheapest helmet……. Right because it is protecting something equally worthless. On to more Cooper-mania. I like filters for water, air and information because they help keep crap out of all three. Other people prefer to drop to their knees and drink deeply and directly from the Ebola River and that is fine too, I just won’t do it. Here is an example of a potential ‘crap filter’ and how some constituent parts may lay un-noticed and despised for some period of time. The first artifact is from the communications transcripts from 1971 where control radioed Flight 305 to “…hold on Seattle 307 radio at low fall, maintaining 6,000.” Here is where the data begins its inevitable migration to myth and lore. These are instructions for Flight 305 to go and ‘hang out’. Low fall is in fact an airway intersection called LOFALL (now LOFAL) which resides on an electronic beam transmitted by a VORTAC named Seattle (SEA). The beam which radiates from SEA is called a radial (NOT radio) and is numbered based upon which position it occupies on a magnetic compass rose. In this case 307 degrees or the 307 radial, from SEA at LOFAL. Crystal clear right? The instructions go on to give an altitude of 6,000 feet at which to hold or just under one nautical mile high. A holding pattern is a racetrack shaped, orbit which is oriented towards the navigation station and uses right turns as standard. This can be modified by ATC with extended legs or left hand turns but is not common. So Flight 305 is circling LOFALL, making right turns at 6,000 feet on 24 Nov 1971. See how simple this is without the distractions of steering, bias and manipulation? Some more of that worthless map reading. LOFALL is in fact 29 DME (kinda like miles) northwest of SeaTac and roughly over Port Ludlow, WA, as indicated on the brilliantly crafted map which is attached. Now there is some ‘Big Picture’ perspective regarding where the plane was holding (or circling) in relation to Seattle and Tacoma. As you can see, Tacoma is 43 nautical miles south of LOFALL where Flight 305 was circling at 6,000 feet. Now you can ask your own bad self; Hey, is it plausible to see the lights of Tacoma, 43 miles away, while circling at 6,000 feet? Then one could add the element of Cooper’s visual opportunity at a distance of 43 miles from the subject area by adding the attribute of his seat location in the aircraft. Or you could cry and bitch and biiiiiiitch about how Cooper’s seat has nothing to do with anything and steer the discussion towards whatever gives you the most boners. Be that as it may, I prefer more validated data when engaged in problem solving rather than less and abhor the addition of garbage and shit in the same. If someone wanted to research what factory made the fabric for the seat cushions in the plane, I couldn’t imagine a reason for protesting what they spend their time or perhaps expertise completing. But this thread is absolutely polluted with frustrated managers who prefer directing the efforts of others away from a rational and measured study, irrespective of the potential result. Weird. Isn’t is freaky how the question of Cooper seeing the lights of Tacoma while circling after the whining about maps and seats? For me, the small exchange about the location of Toutle, WA was a good exercise in completing something relatively complex where a bit of consensus was reached by several un-related individuals. It also illustrated what ‘attention to detail’ some people possess and I admire that trait/skill. It also exposed some bizarre loathing for the subject which I simply can’t understand. Here it is. From a radio on Low Fall to some claim not worth sourcing, where Cooper observed the lights of Tacoma while circling. Decide for yourself. skyjack71 Mar 4, 2009, 10:01 PM Post #8407 of 32413 (4625 views) Registered: Nov 12, 2006 Posts: 3989 Tacoma was very important...and I believe I have told why before. It regarded an investment in some commercial real estate that went sour in the 60's. Two individuals where involved in this - I gave the FBI the information, but they never checked it out. Also another connection with Tacoma was a step son. Remember this - when you look out that window you not only see Tacoma - you see McNeil Island Federal Prison. They fall within the same area from an airplane window. If he had pointed out something as insignifcant as Steillacoon where McNeil Federal Prison is located - it would have been like a Beacon Light into the past of Cooper. After all he was smart like a Fox, right. On our trip to Seattle these are the things he told me and the things he pointed out. The prison was just information in passing - I did not know he had been a prior resident at that time. The FBI has had this information since 1996. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #30825 February 28, 2012 I forgot to provide an external source for the Boeing 727’s windows where Cooper may have been seated. Even though it won’t prove anything and is just a waste of time unlike the technical merits of an electronic men’s girdle/VOR receiver or the efforts directed at proving an Airstream trailer was not an aluminum and Formica den of savage sodomy; but rather a vessel moored at Paradise Point State Park where ransom money was tossed into the river before making an eight mile trek ‘upstream’ to Tena Bar. There was no buttseks in the Airstream, just ransom money tossing and nothing more. And the location of the 727’s rear windows don’t prove anything about visibility or seeing Tacoma or McNeil Island so let’s please move on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkwJ-g0iJ6w Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1228 1229 1230 1231 1232 1233 1234 1235 1236 1237 1238 Next Page 1233 of 2570 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 50 50 Go To Topic Listing
Farflung 0 #30806 February 27, 2012 As it stands presently there are two diametrically opposing answers (how surprising). mrshutter45 indicates that the type of canopy packed in the chutes is visible, but left no clue as how a layperson (code for me) could see this variation. A Pioneer chute may fail I suppose, but the aircraft was doing less than 200 knots and tens of thousands of aircrew bailed out of flaming, spinning and or inverted aircraft during WWII with a very high success rate and at greater velocities. Either way, I was asking about the differing points of appearance and how someone (code for Cooper) could look at the chutes in the photographs and make a determination as to function since they appear nearly identical to me (code for dork). airtwardo responds that the canopy contained within either of the rigs could be the same as there are no external signs to indicate what flavor is packed within. This makes me feel a little more secure since they appear so similar that I would have sworn they are nearly indistinguishable in appearance and function. Guess I can be less concerned about that booze filled night in Bangkok and that woman who carried me home. For a while there I was starting to worry about my visual interpretation skills. Boo-yah. Either way, the Amazing Farflungini is beginning to sense some uncertainty as to the type of parachutes delivered to Cooper. The Amazing Farflungini predicts the answer to the parachute’s precise nomenclature will remain a dark mystery, which in fact serves as the dilithium crystals which power the spaceship ‘Private Enterprise’ deeper and deeper into a void of random chaos and anti-logic. The Amazing Farflungini anxiously awaits the appearance of a ‘Green Tina’. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #30807 February 27, 2012 ok, well here is a link on canopy info, will find more that I have found, but gotta go to workI will find the link but did read somewhere that the pioneer would fail in high speed drops. http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/ "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #30808 February 27, 2012 Quote ok, well here is a link on canopy info, will find more that I have found, but gotta go to workI will find the link but did read somewhere that the pioneer would fail in high speed drops. http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/ http://huntfordbcooper.com/pioneer-v-s-nb6 This one maybe? From the article you linked it sounds like there was probably a 26' Navy conical, possibly sleeved...in the Pioneer rig. It would not have self destructed upon opening and in fact would have been a smoother/softer deployment at any speed. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #30809 February 27, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote It is good to say;"But what if?" or question; "Why?" but not to lie. Mat So then, we are even, because I am not a liar and you are not a crew member. What you know is not the same as what I know, but you don't ask me, you tell me, I lie. Why? That is against forum rules, Matt. You are making a false assumption based on a lack of knowledge, hence the retarded picture, which, I admit was also over the top. Consider cause and effect. I am normally considerate, but react too quickly to unsupported confrontational attacks. Try being what you suggest yourself. Let's all be pleasant. 377 is a shining example for us all, most of the time.... We can disagree without your attacks. Really? Out of all that, you avoid the actual issue and want to feel sad you are not trusted and believed? I rarely see you considerate of others, you're usually harsh and mean spirited, maybe this is too close to that for you and your feelings got hurt? You point out a rule infraction to me? Yet your on record of numerous? (By the way, the saying you cherry picked, never called YOU a liar, you put that shoe on) I, and many others, have asked you numerous times to PROVE your story, you won't, I believe it is because you can't. I have yet to see any "proof" your word is not "proof" it is hear say (just like my word in this case would be "hear say", as I too, was not there), or as some have stated a made up story. But, that aside: I have done some checking on your story. So far none of it adds up. So far each person who could answer the question has said : No, not a statement of fact, or that it is a bold face lie. A few even knew why I was asking and named you with out a hint of prompting. One even said the slander had better stop or I would be in court, till I read your post to them. So, before I get accused of being a Bob Knoss "lacky" again (ironic, huh?), please post actual "proof" or "evidence" as that would meet the Standards of the Courts, even circumstantial. Please remember "Hear say" has already been rules out. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #30810 February 27, 2012 Farflung's point about heads or tails on the choice of parachute makes a lot of sense. The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base and might (toss that quarter again) have assumed that any chutes would come from there. Hell that's probably the first place I would have gone if I was the one securing the chutes anyway. Regardless, he (Cooper) obviously had the power and the opportunity to direct where the chutes should come from and/or what type/model of chutes they should be -- and he didn't. I think that says a lot.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #30811 February 28, 2012 Quote Quote ok, well here is a link on canopy info, will find more that I have found, but gotta go to workI will find the link but did read somewhere that the pioneer would fail in high speed drops. http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/ http://huntfordbcooper.com/pioneer-v-s-nb6 This one maybe? From the article you linked it sounds like there was probably a 26' Navy conical, possibly sleeved...in the Pioneer rig. It would not have self destructed upon opening and in fact would have been a smoother/softer deployment at any speed. I remember Gray's article, but that's not the one, I'll find it"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30812 February 28, 2012 Over the weekend, Bruce Smith had a medical emergency and was hospitalised. Bruce has asked me to announce that he is recovering but will be absent for several days on this forum - I will share further info as I receive it. Thanks. G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #30813 February 28, 2012 Quote Over the weekend, Bruce Smith had a medical emergency and was hospitalised. Bruce has asked me to announce that he is recovering but will be absent for several days on this forum - I will share further info as I receive it. Thanks. G. I hope he makes a full recovery and looking forward to hearing from him."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30814 February 28, 2012 The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #30815 February 28, 2012 Quote The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. Georger, did Cooper mention Tacoma and McCord while landing in Seattle? if so how did he see it on the right side of the plane?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #30816 February 28, 2012 Here’s a description of the parachutes delivered to Cooper from the FBI files according to Bruce Smith’s article: “1. Civilian luxury type, tan soft cotton material outside, 26 foot while canopy inside. The parachute inside is a military parachute. The parachute has a foam pad cushion and a fray mark down the rib on the back from rubbing on metal. 2. A military backpack parachute, standard olive drab green on outside, a 28 foot white canopy on inside. He (Norman Hayden) stated that this parachute also has a foam pad cushion.” How would a skydiver take an inventory of a couple parachutes? Would it appear this vague and whuffo-ish? No manufacturer, serial numbers, model, etc. I don’t think the FBI would describe a gun as a luxury, silver handheld weapon with wooden grips. This appears to be someone doing their best with something they have never encountered before. Was the Pioneer chute more of an NB-6 clone or civilian variant which morphed and mutated over time? What is the genesis of this military, NB-6, surplus parachute? Please include your source. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30817 February 28, 2012 QuoteQuote The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. As far as I know the hijacker never mentioned McChord AFB. Nothing about it in the transcripts, etc. 'We're over Tacoma now...' is supposedly what he said to Mucklow while they were circling over the Puget Sound area. agree on the first - where in the Transcript does he say 'We're over Tacoma now...' ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #30818 February 28, 2012 here are some specs on the NB-8 http://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-10-1670-213-10.pdf http://www.butlerparachutes.com/PDF/PIApresen.pdf"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 244 #30819 February 28, 2012 QuoteQuote The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. Georger, did Cooper mention Tacoma and McCord while landing in Seattle? if so how did he see it on the right side of the plane? Frankly I dont know at the moment - my memories for these fine details is fading, frankly - and they seem to change with every new asset joining this case. If and when I get time I will try to reconnect all of these dots in light of the latest-greatest researcher to join the chase - but my enthusiasm for this is fading fast - thank Christ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #30810 February 27, 2012 Farflung's point about heads or tails on the choice of parachute makes a lot of sense. The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base and might (toss that quarter again) have assumed that any chutes would come from there. Hell that's probably the first place I would have gone if I was the one securing the chutes anyway. Regardless, he (Cooper) obviously had the power and the opportunity to direct where the chutes should come from and/or what type/model of chutes they should be -- and he didn't. I think that says a lot.but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #30811 February 28, 2012 Quote Quote ok, well here is a link on canopy info, will find more that I have found, but gotta go to workI will find the link but did read somewhere that the pioneer would fail in high speed drops. http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/ http://huntfordbcooper.com/pioneer-v-s-nb6 This one maybe? From the article you linked it sounds like there was probably a 26' Navy conical, possibly sleeved...in the Pioneer rig. It would not have self destructed upon opening and in fact would have been a smoother/softer deployment at any speed. I remember Gray's article, but that's not the one, I'll find it"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #30812 February 28, 2012 Over the weekend, Bruce Smith had a medical emergency and was hospitalised. Bruce has asked me to announce that he is recovering but will be absent for several days on this forum - I will share further info as I receive it. Thanks. G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #30813 February 28, 2012 Quote Over the weekend, Bruce Smith had a medical emergency and was hospitalised. Bruce has asked me to announce that he is recovering but will be absent for several days on this forum - I will share further info as I receive it. Thanks. G. I hope he makes a full recovery and looking forward to hearing from him."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #30814 February 28, 2012 The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #30815 February 28, 2012 Quote The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. Georger, did Cooper mention Tacoma and McCord while landing in Seattle? if so how did he see it on the right side of the plane?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #30816 February 28, 2012 Here’s a description of the parachutes delivered to Cooper from the FBI files according to Bruce Smith’s article: “1. Civilian luxury type, tan soft cotton material outside, 26 foot while canopy inside. The parachute inside is a military parachute. The parachute has a foam pad cushion and a fray mark down the rib on the back from rubbing on metal. 2. A military backpack parachute, standard olive drab green on outside, a 28 foot white canopy on inside. He (Norman Hayden) stated that this parachute also has a foam pad cushion.” How would a skydiver take an inventory of a couple parachutes? Would it appear this vague and whuffo-ish? No manufacturer, serial numbers, model, etc. I don’t think the FBI would describe a gun as a luxury, silver handheld weapon with wooden grips. This appears to be someone doing their best with something they have never encountered before. Was the Pioneer chute more of an NB-6 clone or civilian variant which morphed and mutated over time? What is the genesis of this military, NB-6, surplus parachute? Please include your source. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #30817 February 28, 2012 QuoteQuote The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. As far as I know the hijacker never mentioned McChord AFB. Nothing about it in the transcripts, etc. 'We're over Tacoma now...' is supposedly what he said to Mucklow while they were circling over the Puget Sound area. agree on the first - where in the Transcript does he say 'We're over Tacoma now...' ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #30818 February 28, 2012 here are some specs on the NB-8 http://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-10-1670-213-10.pdf http://www.butlerparachutes.com/PDF/PIApresen.pdf"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #30819 February 28, 2012 QuoteQuote The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. Georger, did Cooper mention Tacoma and McCord while landing in Seattle? if so how did he see it on the right side of the plane? Frankly I dont know at the moment - my memories for these fine details is fading, frankly - and they seem to change with every new asset joining this case. If and when I get time I will try to reconnect all of these dots in light of the latest-greatest researcher to join the chase - but my enthusiasm for this is fading fast - thank Christ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobKnoss 0 #30820 February 28, 2012 Quote The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. Yes, Cooper mentioned McCord AFB to Cap and me. He said he knew a guy there that he thought still worked on the ground crew and he was going to see if he could enlist his help. Of course, because I have said this, now it is no longer true, right? Baloney! Another Knoss FACT. Take care, Bruce! Godspeed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 50 #30821 February 28, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote The only caveat I would mention is Cooper knew about McCord Air Force base . How do we know that for sure? He did mention Tacoma. As far as I know the hijacker never mentioned McChord AFB. Nothing about it in the transcripts, etc. 'We're over Tacoma now...' is supposedly what he said to Mucklow while they were circling over the Puget Sound area. agree on the first - where in the Transcript does he say 'We're over Tacoma now...' ? Why don't you check Tosaw's book? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #30822 February 28, 2012 I remember watching cartoons where some character would be working on a car and throwing parts out from under the hood, while looking for the cause of the vehicles malfunction. We would laugh at these antics because we were children and the cartoon characters were stupid. Stupid people are proof that God has a sense of humor and wanted to share the gift of laughter by creating morons. Those parts being tossed out from the car’s engine compartment may not be of any use at that moment, but may prove to be valuable later on. The fact that some of these parts are used less should not mean that their engineering or production should be of inferior quality either. Strange how people think this way. Oh, just buy the cheapest helmet……. Right because it is protecting something equally worthless. On to more Cooper-mania. I like filters for water, air and information because they help keep crap out of all three. Other people prefer to drop to their knees and drink deeply and directly from the Ebola River and that is fine too, I just won’t do it. Here is an example of a potential ‘crap filter’ and how some constituent parts may lay un-noticed and despised for some period of time. The first artifact is from the communications transcripts from 1971 where control radioed Flight 305 to “…hold on Seattle 307 radio at low fall, maintaining 6,000.” Here is where the data begins its inevitable migration to myth and lore. These are instructions for Flight 305 to go and ‘hang out’. Low fall is in fact an airway intersection called LOFALL (now LOFAL) which resides on an electronic beam transmitted by a VORTAC named Seattle (SEA). The beam which radiates from SEA is called a radial (NOT radio) and is numbered based upon which position it occupies on a magnetic compass rose. In this case 307 degrees or the 307 radial, from SEA at LOFAL. Crystal clear right? The instructions go on to give an altitude of 6,000 feet at which to hold or just under one nautical mile high. A holding pattern is a racetrack shaped, orbit which is oriented towards the navigation station and uses right turns as standard. This can be modified by ATC with extended legs or left hand turns but is not common. So Flight 305 is circling LOFALL, making right turns at 6,000 feet on 24 Nov 1971. See how simple this is without the distractions of steering, bias and manipulation? Some more of that worthless map reading. LOFALL is in fact 29 DME (kinda like miles) northwest of SeaTac and roughly over Port Ludlow, WA, as indicated on the brilliantly crafted map which is attached. Now there is some ‘Big Picture’ perspective regarding where the plane was holding (or circling) in relation to Seattle and Tacoma. As you can see, Tacoma is 43 nautical miles south of LOFALL where Flight 305 was circling at 6,000 feet. Now you can ask your own bad self; Hey, is it plausible to see the lights of Tacoma, 43 miles away, while circling at 6,000 feet? Then one could add the element of Cooper’s visual opportunity at a distance of 43 miles from the subject area by adding the attribute of his seat location in the aircraft. Or you could cry and bitch and biiiiiiitch about how Cooper’s seat has nothing to do with anything and steer the discussion towards whatever gives you the most boners. Be that as it may, I prefer more validated data when engaged in problem solving rather than less and abhor the addition of garbage and shit in the same. If someone wanted to research what factory made the fabric for the seat cushions in the plane, I couldn’t imagine a reason for protesting what they spend their time or perhaps expertise completing. But this thread is absolutely polluted with frustrated managers who prefer directing the efforts of others away from a rational and measured study, irrespective of the potential result. Weird. Isn’t is freaky how the question of Cooper seeing the lights of Tacoma while circling after the whining about maps and seats? For me, the small exchange about the location of Toutle, WA was a good exercise in completing something relatively complex where a bit of consensus was reached by several un-related individuals. It also illustrated what ‘attention to detail’ some people possess and I admire that trait/skill. It also exposed some bizarre loathing for the subject which I simply can’t understand. Here it is. From a radio on Low Fall to some claim not worth sourcing, where Cooper observed the lights of Tacoma while circling. Decide for yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #30823 February 28, 2012 Quote Over the weekend, Bruce Smith had a medical emergency and was hospitalised. Bruce has asked me to announce that he is recovering but will be absent for several days on this forum - I will share further info as I receive it. Thanks. G. Please wish him my best and to recovery fully, he need not worry about us! We will still be arguing the same points when he gets back! MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 244 #30824 February 28, 2012 Quote I remember watching cartoons where some character would be working on a car and throwing parts out from under the hood, while looking for the cause of the vehicles malfunction. We would laugh at these antics because we were children and the cartoon characters were stupid. Stupid people are proof that God has a sense of humor and wanted to share the gift of laughter by creating morons. Those parts being tossed out from the car’s engine compartment may not be of any use at that moment, but may prove to be valuable later on. The fact that some of these parts are used less should not mean that their engineering or production should be of inferior quality either. Strange how people think this way. Oh, just buy the cheapest helmet……. Right because it is protecting something equally worthless. On to more Cooper-mania. I like filters for water, air and information because they help keep crap out of all three. Other people prefer to drop to their knees and drink deeply and directly from the Ebola River and that is fine too, I just won’t do it. Here is an example of a potential ‘crap filter’ and how some constituent parts may lay un-noticed and despised for some period of time. The first artifact is from the communications transcripts from 1971 where control radioed Flight 305 to “…hold on Seattle 307 radio at low fall, maintaining 6,000.” Here is where the data begins its inevitable migration to myth and lore. These are instructions for Flight 305 to go and ‘hang out’. Low fall is in fact an airway intersection called LOFALL (now LOFAL) which resides on an electronic beam transmitted by a VORTAC named Seattle (SEA). The beam which radiates from SEA is called a radial (NOT radio) and is numbered based upon which position it occupies on a magnetic compass rose. In this case 307 degrees or the 307 radial, from SEA at LOFAL. Crystal clear right? The instructions go on to give an altitude of 6,000 feet at which to hold or just under one nautical mile high. A holding pattern is a racetrack shaped, orbit which is oriented towards the navigation station and uses right turns as standard. This can be modified by ATC with extended legs or left hand turns but is not common. So Flight 305 is circling LOFALL, making right turns at 6,000 feet on 24 Nov 1971. See how simple this is without the distractions of steering, bias and manipulation? Some more of that worthless map reading. LOFALL is in fact 29 DME (kinda like miles) northwest of SeaTac and roughly over Port Ludlow, WA, as indicated on the brilliantly crafted map which is attached. Now there is some ‘Big Picture’ perspective regarding where the plane was holding (or circling) in relation to Seattle and Tacoma. As you can see, Tacoma is 43 nautical miles south of LOFALL where Flight 305 was circling at 6,000 feet. Now you can ask your own bad self; Hey, is it plausible to see the lights of Tacoma, 43 miles away, while circling at 6,000 feet? Then one could add the element of Cooper’s visual opportunity at a distance of 43 miles from the subject area by adding the attribute of his seat location in the aircraft. Or you could cry and bitch and biiiiiiitch about how Cooper’s seat has nothing to do with anything and steer the discussion towards whatever gives you the most boners. Be that as it may, I prefer more validated data when engaged in problem solving rather than less and abhor the addition of garbage and shit in the same. If someone wanted to research what factory made the fabric for the seat cushions in the plane, I couldn’t imagine a reason for protesting what they spend their time or perhaps expertise completing. But this thread is absolutely polluted with frustrated managers who prefer directing the efforts of others away from a rational and measured study, irrespective of the potential result. Weird. Isn’t is freaky how the question of Cooper seeing the lights of Tacoma while circling after the whining about maps and seats? For me, the small exchange about the location of Toutle, WA was a good exercise in completing something relatively complex where a bit of consensus was reached by several un-related individuals. It also illustrated what ‘attention to detail’ some people possess and I admire that trait/skill. It also exposed some bizarre loathing for the subject which I simply can’t understand. Here it is. From a radio on Low Fall to some claim not worth sourcing, where Cooper observed the lights of Tacoma while circling. Decide for yourself. skyjack71 Mar 4, 2009, 10:01 PM Post #8407 of 32413 (4625 views) Registered: Nov 12, 2006 Posts: 3989 Tacoma was very important...and I believe I have told why before. It regarded an investment in some commercial real estate that went sour in the 60's. Two individuals where involved in this - I gave the FBI the information, but they never checked it out. Also another connection with Tacoma was a step son. Remember this - when you look out that window you not only see Tacoma - you see McNeil Island Federal Prison. They fall within the same area from an airplane window. If he had pointed out something as insignifcant as Steillacoon where McNeil Federal Prison is located - it would have been like a Beacon Light into the past of Cooper. After all he was smart like a Fox, right. On our trip to Seattle these are the things he told me and the things he pointed out. The prison was just information in passing - I did not know he had been a prior resident at that time. The FBI has had this information since 1996. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #30825 February 28, 2012 I forgot to provide an external source for the Boeing 727’s windows where Cooper may have been seated. Even though it won’t prove anything and is just a waste of time unlike the technical merits of an electronic men’s girdle/VOR receiver or the efforts directed at proving an Airstream trailer was not an aluminum and Formica den of savage sodomy; but rather a vessel moored at Paradise Point State Park where ransom money was tossed into the river before making an eight mile trek ‘upstream’ to Tena Bar. There was no buttseks in the Airstream, just ransom money tossing and nothing more. And the location of the 727’s rear windows don’t prove anything about visibility or seeing Tacoma or McNeil Island so let’s please move on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkwJ-g0iJ6w Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
