DB Cooper

[BobKnoss 0]

Quote

...........My guess is the FBI keeps the tie and the clasp in
separate evidence folders (because they are two
distinct items), then mounts the clasp to the tie for
official photo work, and removes the clasp back to
its evidence folder after photo work is done....... -

Actual truth is that Larry Carr kept the fake tie clasp on his frickin' DESK!!
Shows the level of evidence control in this case. Big frickin' JOKE!!

[mrshutter45 21]

The law requires any gold/silver must be stamped with the proper markings 14,18,24 kt etc.

Gold jewelry is made from an alloy of gold and other metals. Gold jewelry should be marked and described to show the fineness of the gold alloy. For example you may see 24k. Gold or 14-Karat Gold stamped on a piece of gold jewelry. You may also see the abbreviated form 14k . or 10kt.

In the United States:
24 Karat means it is pure gold.
18 Karat means it contains 18 parts gold and 6 parts other metals. It is 75% pure gold.
14 Karat means it contains 14 parts gold and 10 parts other metals. It is 58.3% pure gold.
12 Karat means it contains 12 parts gold and 12 parts other metals. It is 50% gold.
10 Karat means it contains 10 parts gold and 14 parts other metals. It is 41.7% gold.
If the item is less than 10 karat it cannot be marked or represented as karat gold in the United States.

The Federal Stamping Law allows for a variance of 1/2 karat (.0208) in the fineness of the karat gold in articles that have no solder or each piece of a soldered piece. Soldered pieces may have a variance of 1 karat.

1. FBI Transcript: "A black clip-on tie which contained a tie clip, yellow gold in color, with a round, white pearl in the center, was located in the seat allegedly used by the hijacker. The tie bore the label "Towncraft", a trade-mark of the JC Penney, Company. Tie and clip were found on seat 18E and Stewardess TINA MUCKLOW, after seeing the tie, said it possibly belonged to the hijacker.

the FBI statement of "yellow gold in color" tells me it's not real gold if the markings were not there to be found.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Farflung 0]

Extremely impressive analysis georger. I did not spot any hallmarks on the clasp photo and was foolish enough to believe the testimony of the JC Penney manager who stated that they did not carry that type of clasp. One day I will learn this basic lesson of how intentionally or unintentionally full of crap people can be.

So after more than 40 years and who knows how many people looking at this clasp with a description which never was more refined than gold in color with a stone or Mother of Pearl, you have managed to identify the manufacturer, years produced and the retail outlet. I’m sure those who have already whined and cried endlessly about a subject being repeated will remain nonplused. I for one am dazzled, humbled and impressed at this David versus Goliath analysis. Not to diminish any of what you have done, but why was this identification such a difficult task for everyone else? Oh well, so much for titles, budgets and overspecialized equipment in the wrong hands.

Seeing that clasp with associated tie tack and cuff links and the gold plated label exposes this as an inexpensive and widely available item versus the previous portrayals of a unique item forged in the house of Faberge. Then this thing was attached to a clip on tie from the same retailer which displayed the battle scars of having been pierced with a couple tie tacks and creased with a tie clip possibly. In other words, the clasp is a cheap, years old item, with the earmarks of a garage sale reject and just as common. What will those do who have told a different story without the photographic sourcing or digital provenance? OK that was a loaded question, they will BS louder and more violently than ever before. Crap information never goes quietly into the night.

I literally spent hours searching specialty catalogs featuring retro jewelry, collectables and small wares with absolutely nothing appearing close to the Cooper clasp in architecture. It was a good thing I avoided all the JC Penney catalogs and went after the more collectable varieties thanks to the Troglodytes who spewed how they knew this was a cherished, valuable and unique item. I don’t care if this helps ‘solve’ the Cooper case, since I don’t know if it will help and neither do any of the ‘Halfbright Scholars’ that have already claimed it is irrelevant. It is a great exemplar of what sourced information and following the data will produce, instead of the usual brain dead garbage repeatedly posted and ultimately proven to be false.

Thanks for the moment of clarity goerger.

[georger 244]

Quote

The law requires any gold/silver must be stamped with the proper markings 14,18,24 kt etc.

Gold jewelry is made from an alloy of gold and other metals. Gold jewelry should be marked and described to show the fineness of the gold alloy. For example you may see 24k. Gold or 14-Karat Gold stamped on a piece of gold jewelry. You may also see the abbreviated form 14k . or 10kt.

In the United States:
24 Karat means it is pure gold.
18 Karat means it contains 18 parts gold and 6 parts other metals. It is 75% pure gold.
14 Karat means it contains 14 parts gold and 10 parts other metals. It is 58.3% pure gold.
12 Karat means it contains 12 parts gold and 12 parts other metals. It is 50% gold.
10 Karat means it contains 10 parts gold and 14 parts other metals. It is 41.7% gold.
If the item is less than 10 karat it cannot be marked or represented as karat gold in the United States.

The Federal Stamping Law allows for a variance of 1/2 karat (.0208) in the fineness of the karat gold in articles that have no solder or each piece of a soldered piece. Soldered pieces may have a variance of 1 karat.

1. FBI Transcript: "A black clip-on tie which contained a tie clip, yellow gold in color, with a round, white pearl in the center, was located in the seat allegedly used by the hijacker. The tie bore the label "Towncraft", a trade-mark of the JC Penney, Company. Tie and clip were found on seat 18E and Stewardess TINA MUCKLOW, after seeing the tie, said it possibly belonged to the hijacker.

the FBI statement of "yellow gold in color" tells me it's not real gold if the markings were not there to be found.

and in fact more product stampings have been
found on the FBI's tie clasp - on the clasp area -
see attached. Clear as day.

But no similar product numbers are visible on the
same area of the nonFBI JCP clasp, at least not yet.
See attached.

Im going to hold further comment pending more
photo analysis -

see photos attached. they are very nice!


BTW! EITHER KNOSS OF JO SCREWED UP THE PAGE
FORMAT AGAIN - PLEASE UNDO IT !

[mrshutter45 21]

Quote

Quote

The law requires any gold/silver must be stamped with the proper markings 14,18,24 kt etc.

Gold jewelry is made from an alloy of gold and other metals. Gold jewelry should be marked and described to show the fineness of the gold alloy. For example you may see 24k. Gold or 14-Karat Gold stamped on a piece of gold jewelry. You may also see the abbreviated form 14k . or 10kt.

In the United States:
24 Karat means it is pure gold.
18 Karat means it contains 18 parts gold and 6 parts other metals. It is 75% pure gold.
14 Karat means it contains 14 parts gold and 10 parts other metals. It is 58.3% pure gold.
12 Karat means it contains 12 parts gold and 12 parts other metals. It is 50% gold.
10 Karat means it contains 10 parts gold and 14 parts other metals. It is 41.7% gold.
If the item is less than 10 karat it cannot be marked or represented as karat gold in the United States.

The Federal Stamping Law allows for a variance of 1/2 karat (.0208) in the fineness of the karat gold in articles that have no solder or each piece of a soldered piece. Soldered pieces may have a variance of 1 karat.

1. FBI Transcript: "A black clip-on tie which contained a tie clip, yellow gold in color, with a round, white pearl in the center, was located in the seat allegedly used by the hijacker. The tie bore the label "Towncraft", a trade-mark of the JC Penney, Company. Tie and clip were found on seat 18E and Stewardess TINA MUCKLOW, after seeing the tie, said it possibly belonged to the hijacker.

the FBI statement of "yellow gold in color" tells me it's not real gold if the markings were not there to be found.

and in fact more product stampings have been
found on the FBI's tie clasp - on the clasp area -
see attached. Clear as day.

But no similar product numbers are visible on the
same area of the nonFBI JCP clasp, at least not yet.
See attached.

Im going to hold further comment pending more
photo analysis -

see photos attached. they are very nice!


BTW! EITHER KNOSS OF JO SCREWED UP THE PAGE
FORMAT AGAIN - PLEASE UNDO IT !

Nice pics! I wish we could see the back side of the tie clip, I believe that is where everything is, see attached photo.

K = Karat
KP = Karat Plumb (exact amount of gold)
K.P. = Karat Plate
GF = Gold Filled (heavy plating), usually has a fraction, i.e., 1/20 10K GF
GS = Gold Shell
HGE = Heavy Gold Electroplate

new photo added.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Farflung 0]

Here’s a couple more images georger. No hallmarks or makers noted on this item.


http://www.etsy.com/listing/16877273/vintage-mother-of-pearl-tie-clip-and

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

Quote

The law requires any gold/silver must be stamped with the proper markings 14,18,24 kt etc.

Gold jewelry is made from an alloy of gold and other metals. Gold jewelry should be marked and described to show the fineness of the gold alloy. For example you may see 24k. Gold or 14-Karat Gold stamped on a piece of gold jewelry. You may also see the abbreviated form 14k . or 10kt.

In the United States:
24 Karat means it is pure gold.
18 Karat means it contains 18 parts gold and 6 parts other metals. It is 75% pure gold.
14 Karat means it contains 14 parts gold and 10 parts other metals. It is 58.3% pure gold.
12 Karat means it contains 12 parts gold and 12 parts other metals. It is 50% gold.
10 Karat means it contains 10 parts gold and 14 parts other metals. It is 41.7% gold.
If the item is less than 10 karat it cannot be marked or represented as karat gold in the United States.

The Federal Stamping Law allows for a variance of 1/2 karat (.0208) in the fineness of the karat gold in articles that have no solder or each piece of a soldered piece. Soldered pieces may have a variance of 1 karat.

1. FBI Transcript: "A black clip-on tie which contained a tie clip, yellow gold in color, with a round, white pearl in the center, was located in the seat allegedly used by the hijacker. The tie bore the label "Towncraft", a trade-mark of the JC Penney, Company. Tie and clip were found on seat 18E and Stewardess TINA MUCKLOW, after seeing the tie, said it possibly belonged to the hijacker.

the FBI statement of "yellow gold in color" tells me it's not real gold if the markings were not there to be found.

and in fact more product stampings have been
found on the FBI's tie clasp - on the clasp area -
see attached. Clear as day.

But no similar product numbers are visible on the
same area of the nonFBI JCP clasp, at least not yet.
See attached.

Im going to hold further comment pending more
photo analysis -

see photos attached. they are very nice!


BTW! EITHER KNOSS OF JO SCREWED UP THE PAGE
FORMAT AGAIN - PLEASE UNDO IT !

Nice pics! I wish we could see the back side of the tie clip, I believe that is where everything is, see attached photo.

K = Karat
KP = Karat Plumb (exact amount of gold)
K.P. = Karat Plate
GF = Gold Filled (heavy plating), usually has a fraction, i.e., 1/20 10K GF
GS = Gold Shell
HGE = Heavy Gold Electroplat

I could be wrong but I think the edge printing
on the pearl housing (FBI's) is under the plating
which would mean itwas a feature on the cating mold
or stamped just after the casting process prior to
plating. The plating seems to have filled the low
area in the print stamping?

Another thing that strikes me is that nice reservoir
for things to collect in, surrounding the faux pearl.
Maybe a few skin cells in there from the user? You
can see stuff in that crease. I will attach a photo -

Nice new photos from Farflung also to go over.
More later.

The nonFBI set came from a foreign country - not
Canada or Mexico. I hope its not a kockoff! I dont
thnk so but not 100% sure it isnt - that needs to be
addresed. More later -

[Farflung 0]

Similar in architecture, but the manufacture date is claimed to be 1930’s (?), no ridges on the lever and there is no incused area near the bezel. So who knows?

http://www.etsy.com/listing/76657408/1930s-vintage-tie-clip-mother-of-pearl

Could this style have actually been produced from the 30’s with modifications? No wonder they don’t show up in any collector’s catalogs, they must be almost worthless.

[mrshutter45 21]

could be the glue holding the pearl in the setting? and if the pearl is not real, more than likely the whole thing is not real.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Farflung 0]

Here’s another 1930’s version with the same differing characteristics as before. This treasure can be yours for $8.

http://www.goantiques.com/scripts/images,id,1585966.html#

This is stacking up to be more common of a design than I had imagined. But then I tend to throw down more for a tie accessory than the price of a Big Mac and fries.

I’ll assume there is no requirement to stamp gold plated stuff encrusted with Mother of Pearl since the box tends to be worth more than the item within.

[mrshutter45 21]

Quote

Here’s another 1930’s version with the same differing characteristics as before. This treasure can be yours for $8.

http://www.goantiques.com/scripts/images,id,1585966.html#

This is stacking up to be more common of a design than I had imagined. But then I tend to throw down more for a tie accessory than the price of a Big Mac and fries.

I’ll assume there is no requirement to stamp gold plated stuff encrusted with Mother of Pearl since the box tends to be worth more than the item within.

In Canada the minimum karat quality of an item to be legally called gold is 9 karats . In the U.S. the minimum legal is 10 karats. As this could be different in other countries any claim that a piece of jewelry is gold should be accompanied with the karat quality.

It is important to verify that an item wears the karat stamp along with the manufacturer trademark. It's a sure sign that the manufacturer stands behind its product. Canadian and U.S. laws require that trademark marking be used whenever karat marking is used to ensure the marking is genuine. As a general rule, avoid any unmarked jewelry unless it is dirt cheap.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 50]

Quote

Because the hijacker was so quick
to toss away the tie, I've
always wondered if he just borrowed
it from someone. The thought being
this: If it could not be traced to him,
perhaps he would have risked discarding
it.

I wonder who would lend him a tie?
(*smiles*)

I am just awful sometimes, I admit it.

I don't believe that Tom Kaye made the remark about clip-on ties that you give. If I remember correctly,
Tom has documentry evidence of people working in shops wearing non-clip-on ties.

I believe this tie matter was discussed in great detail on this thread last fall.

[Farflung 0]

So Dawn K (her real name) does not live with 16 cats and was able to identify the tie clasp in the FBI photo as Kenny’s. This in spite of the claim, that she barely knew him and had just moved to the area a few months before the crime.

Even though Bernie had to be intermediary and guarantor for the loan (secured without buttseks) and delivered the money to Dawn K, yet she knew what tie clasp Kenny owned? Yeah, this is all plausible and reasonable. There are no leaps of logic nor a requirement for suspension of disbelief. Thirty plus years after a window of a couple months closed, where one could observe Kenny wearing the clasp, whom she barely knew is deserving of thread inclusion.

[mrshutter45 21]

Quote

So Dawn K (her real name) does not live with 16 cats and was able to identify the tie clasp in the FBI photo as Kenny’s. This in spite of the claim, that she barely knew him and had just moved to the area a few months before the crime.

Even though Bernie had to be intermediary and guarantor for the loan (secured without buttseks) and delivered the money to Dawn K, yet she knew what tie clasp Kenny owned? Yeah, this is all plausible and reasonable. There are no leaps of logic nor a requirement for suspension of disbelief. Thirty plus years after a window of a couple months closed, where one could observe Kenny wearing the clasp, whom she barely knew is deserving of thread inclusion.

sounds very similar to Marla's family commenting about LD, mother says she always had a gut feeling it was him? but says nothing past that, Janet (Dewey's wife) talks about LD the same way! see a pattern here?

I found the Christmas Penney's catalog from 1966 among others, but don't see anything as of yet.

http://www.wishbookweb.com/

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[EVickiW 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N828CMS8Wlo

Ran across this video last week, In Search of.....DB Cooper with Leonard Nimoy.


It was recent upload on YouTube. Originally aired in 1979.

Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs

[smokin99 0]

Quote

I found the Christmas Penney's catalog from 1966 among others, but don't see anything as of yet.

http://www.wishbookweb.com/

[Farflung 0]

Anyone want to bet this is going to happen in the near future?

Georger found that Cooper tie clasp as part of a set, with matching cuff links and tie tack in a can proudly marked as Mother of Pearl and gold plated. Obviously the thing is stinkin cheap and examples will be on eBay. How long till someone magically discovers the cuff links and/or the tie tack (missing the CLASP! Where could it be?) in a dead suspect’s ‘secret box’ which is also filled with Raleigh coupons?

A. Next week.

B. This month.

C. Before June.

D. Ask RobertMBlevins.

[JerryThomas 0]

Look guys ,Heres what is funny there is no candidate out there that has not been eliminated. However there is a lot of authors and want to be's that will make up storie's or tell lie's just to sell a book or try to gain 15 minutes of fame. Then there are those that try to evaluate and come up with evidence through interpritation of data. Still no one is close to solving this case.Then there are those that make harrasing phone calls. Then there are those that post names and number's in an attempt to look important( Farflung) Bottom line is that the real Dan Cooper died the night he jumped. What else would seperate a crook from his money. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

farflung: Because of your post and research and willingness to post witnessese names and other info. I feel it is only proper to post your real name and address and phone number here on drop zone. with in the next few post. Jerry

[Farflung 0]

Sure JerryThomas, I would be delighted to meet your request as soon as you quote, cut and past or otherwise cite my offending comment which apparently included someone’s name and phone number. Of course I try to look important…… that floats my boat and I admit this freely. This is why I avoid making vapid charges and spelling in such a way as to appear to be an imbecile.

Otherwise I have no idea what it is you are referencing (nothing new here) which is understandable considering your use of the written word. Is there a reason you want my name and number? For what purpose would you use it? That’s the first step towards identity theft and you spend an inordinate amount of time demanding people’s personal information. How could I know you don’t have a history of identity theft? Studies indicate a person’s repeated and aggressive demands for personal information are a clear indicator of such a history.

If I did the crime, I’ll do the time because I’m a man. If it turns out your are mistaken, you will fade back into where ever you came from without any acknowledgement. As you do.

[georger 244]

Quote

Quote

I found the Christmas Penney's catalog from 1966 among others, but don't see anything as of yet.

http://www.wishbookweb.com/

Cool web site though.

[georger 244]

Quote

Anyone want to bet this is going to happen in the near future?

Georger found that Cooper tie clasp as part of a set, with matching cuff links and tie tack in a can proudly marked as Mother of Pearl and gold plated. Obviously the thing is stinkin cheap and examples will be on eBay. How long till someone magically discovers the cuff links and/or the tie tack (missing the CLASP! Where could it be?) in a dead suspect’s ‘secret box’ which is also filled with Raleigh coupons?

A. Next week.

B. This month.

C. Before June.

D. Ask RobertMBlevins.

10:1 its already in production -

[Farflung 0]

BINGO!

[skyjack71 0]

The author Patrick Worden has a copyright on a story he wrote regarding the things I
told him and thur his own research. He made some
errors and this was in 2001.
I don't know how to contact
him for permission to post
the story.

He mistakenly stated Duane Weber died of cancer, but
that is ok. Since he is not available for permission
I can only make simple
quotes from his article. I do
this to maintain the basics
of my story have not
changed:


Quotes from his article: 101 Follow-up written in 2001.

" “I’m Dan Cooper,” he said.
The name, unfortunately,
meant nothing to Jo Weber."

"Like most Americans, Jo
would have instantly
recognized the more
famous alias, D.B. Cooper.
Also like most Americans, she was unaware that “D.B.”
was a misnomer".

"When she learned of the
Dan Cooper/D.B. Cooper confusion, she became convinced."

"The FBI profile of the
unknown skyjacker made
a few assumptions: he
was likely to have military experience, probably had
a criminal record, and was
certain to be familiar with
the Pacific Northwest. Duane Weber served in both the
Army and the Navy, and did
time at a prison in Steilacoom, Washington—just 20 miles
from SEA-TAC airport, where “Dan Cooper” received
his ransom."

"Ralph Himmelsbach, the FBI agent who led the Cooper investigation from
1971 until his retirement in 1980, is as convinced as Jo Weber."

"all this has led Himmelsbach
to strongly believe the case presented by Mrs. Weber".

"His open mind is not shared
by today’s FBI. According to Jo Weber, they gave cursory attention to the information
she provided, quibbled with
her over her late husband’s service record, then ceased investigating—saying that
the evidence was
inconclusive."

He goes on in 2001 to state
"NO evidence will be found
until you actually Investigate" (referencing the FBI). His
article even pokes at the FBI about being "stung" by its
own bundling and public
image. Note this was stated
in 2001. I have NO idea what
he was talking about.

I love it the way he talks about "letting sleeping dogs
lie and letting cold cases
remain cold to avoid more embarrassement" a reference
to the FBI.

Until Patrick stumbled upon
me or I upon him he was convinced Cooper lost the money.

He maintained it was up to historians and hobbyist to
bring resolutions to the 1971 incident. Little did he know
that 11 yrs later I would still
be trying to find answers and that his prediction actually
came to past with this thread and in the form of super
sleuths.

He then states this and
I will quote it:
"Mrs. Weber is seeking no reward, no recognition.
Just answers. She wants
nothing more than the truth about her late husband".

He wrapped up with:
"So do we, Mrs. Weber. So
do we."

In 2001 - I was seeking
nothing, but the truth and
there was actually more
weight given by the FBI at
that time to Duane being
Cooper than Marla has or thought she had. Yet, like Coffelt, any suspect connected
to anything that might endanger "national security" went HUSH HUSH
really fast.

The FBI just never expected
me to keep on keeping all
of these yrs. The FBI
thought I would just fade
away or if they were lucky
I would die.

Almost 17 yrs and I am
still fighting the battle and
NOW with the finding of a FOOTPRINT - it is obvious
the FBI DID not investigate Duane L. Weber the way
they should have.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Knoss SCREWED up the thread with the post below by doing a triple reply - and it has us ALL screwed now. It is too late for
him to fix it so Quade will have to do it. Then those of us who modified our post to force them to fit will get messed up or this will continue until the next page and then probably self correct.

Mar 4, 2012, 6:19 AM

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Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber